Syed Farook as American as apple pie

[ellenrr]

"Syed Farooq is an American: Let’s stop the Muslim vs. Christian debate and take a look at ourselves"

"His terrible deed does not spring from an unknowable foreign culture. It is violence endemic to the United States."

"Dear compatriots:

There’s a connection between the supposed deviance of Farooq’s shooting and your endless, adamant justification of U.S. bloodletting throughout the world.

To put it plainly: thinking about violent behavior as something innately foreign is a terrific rationale for delivering violence to foreign places.
...
Is it too difficult to recognize the many problems of a discourse that relies so heavily on demonization to generate support? The demagogue can enact violence only when his audience refuses to recognize the violent nature of demagoguery.

Politicians love nothing more than a frightened, uninformed citizenry. It’s how they convince us to cosign our dispossession. People who discern gray areas and have the ability to reason through propaganda are their most undesirable clients. The United States cannot be a functional democracy if we make ourselves so compliant.
...
Let’s explore these questions together. We’ll surely be surprised by what we learn through the simple act of listening. Before we do, though, I ask you to remember that I am proudly Arab but legally American, and I refuse to entertain the possibility that either category invalidates the other.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/03/syed_farooq_is_an_american_lets_stop_the_muslim_vs_christian_debate_and_take_a_look_at_ourselves/

[JI7]

1. i think it stems from islamic fundamentalism

[Bernardo de La Paz]

9. Wrong. Fundamentalism. The actual schism of monotheism is irrelevant.

Actually, even monotheism or polytheism is not important.

The key is Fundamentalism. Which sect (muslim or christian or other) matters little.

[AngryAmish]

12. Not really. Islam is culturally different than other monothemisms.

Jews don't really care to spread the faith. Islam does. In Europe and the civilizations that spring from there, wars of religion ended with Westphalia.

Islam compels both multiple wives and expansion. It says dying in war to expand the faith means heaven. That makes for bloody borders.

Different cultures are different.

So should travel some and experience other peoples. Other cultures are different than ours. That is OK. But one must be aware of cultural differences.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. And christians don't care to spread the faith? Get off it. It's Fundamentalism. Jews too.

Fundamentalist orthodox jews in Israel are the ones most highly involved in killing Palestinians and grabbing land.

Fundamentalist christians are not called Evangelistic for nothing.

It's Fundamentalism that breeds radicalism and leads to violence.

It would be best to drop the views that verge close to bigotry about Islam and to study up on history.

Like American history. Never forget that the Aboriginal people of America ("indians&quot were decimated by a genocidal war against them with deep "christian" motives.

Same thing in Africa and Australia.

Same thing against the Chinese in the 1800s.

Christian fundamentalist expansionism is the reason Japan closed up for a couple of centuries until an American gunboat made a show of force in a Japanese harbor.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

27. You are referring to history to prove your point

but modern-day Christianity is doing nothing closely resembling radical Islam. Radical Islam is offended by modernity. Period.

And I know of no Christian religion that teaches they will be rewarded in heaven for killing people on earth. Christians just aren't incentivized to do this kind of crap.

Imo, if we are worried about Islamophobia, it is much better to teach that there are different belief systems within Islam, just as there are different belief systems within Christianity. People can understand that.

Unfortunately, it just angers people when they hear false comparisons or outright denials - like calling the recent incident "workplace violence" instead of "terrorism." That's the kind of crap that leads people to demagogues.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

34. Tim McVeigh. "Nuke Mecca". And as far as teaching that Islam is diverse: That's my point! nt

Go look up Dominionists.

Go look up christians bombing abortion clinics, sniping doctors to death.

Go look up the American pastors that teach that christians will be rewarded here on earth for killing people (gays, doctors, transgendered, etc.).

A big reason modern-day fundamentalist christianity is a little more restrained than radical fundamental islam is that the West has a very strong system of laws and very strong law enforcement.

Another big reason is that elsewhere, where laws and law enforcement are not as effective, christians are in minorities.

Yes, islam is diverse. That's my point! The poster's blanket condemnation of muslims is demagogic crap and he/she doesn't seem to understand it the way you do.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

35. But, but, but...

We constantly hear that this isn't an Islamic problem. Or that they aren't "real Muslims." (CAIR?) People aren't stupid. It angers them. Right now, I am reading more stuff on Facebook like "Can you believe they still don't want to say that this is terrorism?" than comments about the actual tragedy.

And I know that individual Christians have acted violently based on their personal beliefs, but their beliefs have absolutely NO foundation in the New Testament. None.

I don't know of any Christian religious authorities who are teaching the kind of heresy you mention, but I wouldn't be surprised, since I'm not surprised by anything, these days.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

40. Now you know of bible foundations and christian authorities teaching killing and violence:

It is not an islamic problem! You can go to any mosque in your home town and randomly select ten real muslims and none of them will be terrorists. In the same way we can show that it is not a christian problem or an atheist problem.

But it is a fundamentalist problem: radical islamic fundamentalists and radical christian fundamentalists.

Christians, especially fundamentalist christians, are not guided by the New Testament alone:

Kill all unbelievers: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm#kill-all-unbelievers

Kill abortionists: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm#shed-the-blood

Pastor Steve Anderson: http://www.rawstory.com/2014/12/arizona-pastor-predicts-aids-free-christmas-if-all-gays-are-killed-as-god-commands/ Arizona pastor calls for killing all gays, as God commands in the bible


Pic Of The Moment: Three GOP Candidates Speak At Event Where Organizer Says Gays Should Be Executed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017307286


Pastor Robert Lee:


A Kansas pastor is standing by his sermon Sunday that called for the government to kill homosexuals.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/kansas-pastor-stands-sermon-government-kill-gays-article-1.1087886

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. Islam does not "compel multiple wives". Rid yourself of ignorant myths. nt

[AngryAmish]

23. Compel, maybe not. Allow,yes.

This creates extra unmarriagable males. Kinda like the demographic worries created in China by the one child policy in China.

Let me suggest that you suffer from the universalism cultural meme common in the West. This is an artifact of being in the West, with it's unique outbreeding program of the last 1600 years. Other nonwestern cultures do not have this belief. Sure, the folks one meets as a tourist or at university may claim similar cultural mores. But cultures are different. It is OK to be different. It takes real education, the hard kind of actually listening to people of other cultures and believing what they say and not filtering through one's cultural filters.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

32. You assume too much when you assume I have only lived in the West & I'm uneducated

When you make blanket Islamophobic statements like you did that you later here now admit are wrong, you are the one falling into the memes.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

33. "universalism cultural meme common in the West"? You are overlooking the obvious in this case.

This thread is about Syed Farook.

Syed Farook was born and raised in America.

Yet you are dragging islamophobic prejudice in here, like "islam compels multiple wives". In America. This act took place in America.

[malaise]

2. Excellent read - two things

Those kids who killed their peers at the school in Colorado some years ago also had bombs and were also angry that someone had dissed them.

The sad bottom line is that the American way of dealing with the other as in foreign policy is no different than the behavior of all these mass killers. Anyone who disagrees with them and does not defer to their agenda and interests will be destroyed by any means necessary.

This one was piling up the weapons knowing well that the day would come when he too would deal with the person or persons who 'dissed him'. He was one sick narcissistic fuck but there are many like him in every sphere of American society.

Just listen well to the American media demonizing anyone or any government that disagrees with the American agenda.

America has more military bases across the planet yet bawls all day that she isn't safe.
More than a few Americans believe that any view that disagrees with theirs should be silenced but yet scream about their first amendment rights to demonize anyone anywhere.

And we wonder why so many disillusioned young people want drugs all day.
Yes this one was just another product of a very sick society.

[LiberalElite]

7. You just described American society

on a macro and micro level.

[ellenrr]

11. well, well-said. Sadly, very accurate. sometimes I am surprised we do not have more

violence of this type, or of the school-shooter.

I think the every day conditions of life in the 21st century provide a low-hum of stress that infects all of us.-
the inability to ever reach a person when you have a product-complaint,
dealing with people on the phone in "customer service" whose English is far from perfect,
the general level of incompetence every where

These are things we "learn" to cope with, but I think many of us could become violent.
It is the every day stress and add in some bigger stress- at work, in relationships, ..

who knows - given the circumstances - who amongst us could be come Farook.

I keep thinking of a guy who was my student in a GED class. He had many problems in life- economic, some legal problems, and, as a learner, he had many blocks, and took a long time to learn something.
He and I had a great relationship; he would tell anyone who would listen what a great teacher I was.
One day I said something to him when he came to class late, and immediately disrupted the class further by carrying on a conversation.
He snapped- threw a book at me. (didn't hit me).

I found out later that that day he had broken up a relationship.

Now if he had had a gun would he have shot me? I don't know. He is not a bad person. But at the moment he threw the book - he wasn't thinking, he was reacting.

I know for people who are stock-piling ammunitions, it seems like they are thinking and planning... On some level they are. But I think on some level they have literally lost their mind.

It is too bad we don't teach children emotional intelligence and how to deal with stress- with meditation or yoga.

[Yorktown]

18. Farooq had prepared IEDs, so it's not a case of a fit of anger

I keep thinking of a guy who was my student in a GED class. He had many problems in life-
One day .. He snapped- threw a book at me. (didn't hit me).

Hardly covers the case of a guy in internet contact with terrorists who prepared IEDs.

[RKP5637]

26. Emotional intelligence is often very lacking in our society. Funding for it would likely be dished

and laughed at. Often the mannerisms and social behavior of many in the US remind me of a grade school playground with bullies wandering around looking for a fight. So many seem to have no concept of how to deal with stress. Surely this would not work for all situations, but it would seem to help some with pent up emotional blowouts.

[Yorktown]

17. So the US is "a very sick society"?

Well, stats don't bear that out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

The UN sponsored 'World Happiness Index' places the US at a honorable #16

That index is calculated for the whole population, not the 1%.

1 Switzerland 7.587 Decrease -0.233
2 Iceland 7.561 Increase 0.263
3 Denmark 7.527 Increase 0.303
4 Norway 7.522 Increase 0.054
5 Brazil 7.427 Increase 0.171
6 Finland 7.406 Increase 0.032
7 Netherlands 7.389 Decrease -0.283
8 Sweden 7.378 Increase 0.247
9 New Zealand 7.364 N/A
10 Australia 7.350 Increase 0.040
11 Israel 7.301 Increase 0.293
12 Costa Rica 7.257 Steady 0.000
13 Austria 7.221 Decrease -0.210
14 Mexico 7.144 Increase 0.410
16 United States 7.143 Increase 0.535
15 Canada 7.088 Increase 0.633
17 Luxembourg 7.082 Decrease -0.283
18 Ireland 7.076 Decrease -0.068

[malaise]

21. Listen well - there are two sides to America

one is beautiful - full of caring people, rational folks who do great things and then they're the Right wing racist goons and MIC.

[Yorktown]

22. But "Right wing racist goons" are a tiny minority.

81 of whites and 75% of blacks say blacks and whites get on very to reasonably well.

Q8 Pew poll http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/08/22/kings-dream-remains-an-elusive-goal-many-americans-see-racial-disparities/

(and the part of the rest might think they should get on better)

[RKP5637]

29. One of the problems I see in the US is "Right wing racist goons" often have a spotlight

on them by MSM. Human interest IMO perks up with descent, I think it's likely a primordial response, and a money maker for MSM, as well as RW hate radio and the like. Hence, they get a lot of coverage which cranks up the anxiety level of the country, which spills over into other areas including aggression, and the magnification continues.

I encounter many people that just want to get on with their lives and don't have an axe to grind against anyone.

The obnoxious politicians crank up the anxiety level to stoke their minority base and contribute to a bellicose environment. And, again, they get the MSM spotlight and the hate avenues for revenue.

[Yorktown]

30. True. Plus the fact the loudmouths cover the ambient noise.

Most people in the US are decent.

Something one wouldn't guess from listening to Rush Limbaugh.

[951-Riverside]

3. Syed Farook is as American as George W. Bush and Dick Cheney

They may have been born in America but the horrors they committed is very much un-american.

Fuck all of them and salon for using this tragedy to get hits on their website.

[ucrdem]

4. Speaking of whom . . .

has anyone explained how three heavily armed men with athletic builds became a pair of newlyweds with a six-month old child?

[FailureToCommunicate]

14. +1

[Lochloosa]

15. Actually the horrors they committed are very much American.

[RobinA]

16. Oh Please!

Commission of horror is American? I don't think so. This particular horror strikes me as pretty multicultural.

[Yorktown]

5. Ted Bundy too was as American as apple pie. And?

There are bad Americans.

There are bad ideologies.

Your point is?

[IronLionZion]

6. Be afraid

So GOP politicians can do all sorts of shitty things to "protect us from the bad guys"

[Travis_0004]

8. Yet his wife came here on a foreign visa

I wonder what affect this will have on syrian refugees.

Everybody was talking about how through the background check is, but of course the background check can never tell us everything.

[LittleGirl]

10. That's really unfortunate as

well. My spouse and I waited until we were married for 2 yrs before we started the visa program to get a green card before we moved to the states. He is non-muslim, a christian actually and the process to get him a visa was extensive. They checked his background addresses since he was 16 and being over 40 surely was hard for him to remember. He was checked by Homeland Security and whatever that foreign intel program is that I can't remember the acronym for. He's a British citizen so an ally country but it took months and months and cost a lot of money, over 2 grand. They had his passport for months and he couldn't travel for his job. He had to get a physical with xrays, blood work and peeing in a cup and had multiple immunizations on one day. The immigration office has it this way because so many Americans have had sham marriages to bring their foreign born spouses here only to let them loose after they got the Visa. I don't recommend anybody going through this process until they've been married for 2 yrs and wait like we did. I know of a young couple applying for a fiance visa right now and I don't see it going well for them either. Especially now.

[metalbot]

24. The fiance vise is oddly, a much quicker process

The K-1 visa (fiance) can typically be processed in a couple of months. A K-3 (spousal visa) can easily take a year. The difference isn't in the level of the checks, but because there are so many more K-1's than K-3's, there are four centers that process K-1's, and only one that handles the K-3's.

My application for my wife (K-3) took just about a year to the day from when we applied. If we'd simply gotten divorced, then had her enter on a K-1, we likely would have gotten back in about 3 months.

[LittleGirl]

25. interesting. eom

[Nye Bevan]

13. Well yes, even Jihadists are US citizens if they happen to born in the United States.

But that doesn't necessarily make him as "American as apple pie". I haven't heard anything about him coaching Little League, celebrating July the Fourth, or carving Thanksgiving turkeys.

[Rex]

28. The problem here imo is religious fundamentalism.

Doesn't matter which one, take your pick.

[earthside]

31. American Culture of Violence.

Farook is as American as something even more American than apple pie: glorification of violence.

And the other big American value: always avoid the truth if possible.

We love our pioneer spirit and the violence of taming the frontier; we love our military might that brings freedom and democracy violently to the oppressed peoples of the world; we love our free-wheeling, unrestrained culture of violent entertainment; and we love our freedom of religion even if it encourages violence.

I'm believing that gun control is a path that leads to nowhere; but, of course, the other sides notion that a gun on every hip will bring peace and harmony to our land is a retreat to barbarity.

We need a concerted effort to change the culture and lessen our love of the violent hero, but that will require everyone to stop being dogmatic about their favorite form of violence ... including video games, movies, songs, the shooting range, motorcycle culture, glorification of the military, etc.; it permeates almost everything we do.

It also means finally being honest with ourselves -- like saying out loud that radical Islamist jihadism is real and threatens us.

[patsimp]

36. he killed based on radical islam. his wife pledged her support to isis publicly. rejecting facts

is not going to solve the problem.

[LittleBlue]

37. Why take a look at ourselves? It isn't us, it's radical Islam

None of us had a hand in radicalizing Farook. We need only turn our attention to the irrational ideology behind these attacks. These beliefs are promoted by countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. None of us are responsible.

Stop doing logic pretzels to absolve a hateful ideology of its resulting terror.

[Democat]

39. When in doubt, blame America, Bush, or Obama

Don't blame the people with the guns.

[Chan790]

38. Apple pie isn't particularly American.

Both of these things predate the "All-American" apple pie.


The German Apfeltorte


The French Tarte Tatin

I realize it's minutia but the expression has always bothered me...mothers, hot dogs, apple pie, and hamburgers--none of them are American in origin but we claim them all.

[Fast Walker 52]

41. I agree people's motivations are complex and clearly there is too much violence in our society