Do you think that some cultures are better than other cutlures?

[theboss]

This seems to be the tension that Left-wingers are experiencing when discussing the refugee crisis in a general sense, but particularly in specific situations like the assaults in Cologne.

[geek tragedy]

1. Yes, and obviously so.

The US culture of 2015 is infinitely superior to the culture of the US in 1865.

There isn't anyone here who respects the culture of Saudi Arabia.

[pipoman]

7. I would change Saudi Arabia to the Middle East

Saudi culture is marginally better than most of the rest of the Middle East...

[valerief]

50. Yeah, the Saudis really love their womenfolk.

[pipoman]

145. The rest of the Middle East is better?

[valerief]

156. No, why would you think it is? nt

[Jesus Malverde]

71. First post

Nailed it. Thanks GT.

[HereSince1628]

79. Not sure that is obviously so. By 1865 the US culture was deeply promoting pollution,

excessive resource harvesting/habitat alteration.

Better is pretty much in the eye of the person who defines better.

IMO you don't get to mint goodness coins with only one face, there's always a back-side and much in between the faces.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Yogurt is the best culture. nt

[randome]

8. But real yogurt, not that Yo-plait stuff.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Glassunion]

14. Bullshit

biovar diacetylactis
bulgaricus
etc...

BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!!!

[Xipe Totec]

17. Beer is culture too!

http://sixpoint.com/about/beer-is-culture

[Glassunion]

23. No. Beer is not culture.

Beer is magic.

[MineralMan]

39. Kimchee is the only true culture.

It is far superior to western sauerkraut in its cultural excellence, I believe.

One can argue, however between the culture of French vs. Italian bread cultures. I am torn between the two, not sliced.

[pangaia]

55. Ah shit, you beat me to it....

[kentauros]

90. For me, kombucha is the best culture

[cali]

3. If by better, you mean are some cultures less oppressive than others, than yes.

[leftynyc]

4. Yes

And I have no problem saying that out loud. Just like we could learn something from Asian societies about how to treat the elderly. No culture is perfect but some deserve the dustbin of history and yes, I'm speaking directly to those that treat women like cattle.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

46. Yes, we could certainly learn something from

Asian cultures.

Unfortunately, according to a BBC report, homes are now being opened for destitute and ignored elderly. I hope they don't learn too much from their American counterparts.

[Lizzie Poppet]

5. Yes, demonstrably.

The cultural contribution to what happened in Cologne (and Helsinki, etc.) is obvious and undeniable. When a culture's context and institutionalized precepts influence its "bad actors" to commits acts like that, the culture itself becomes liable to criticism. Institutionalized misogyny expressed as attacks on women overrides any concern for cultural sensitivity.

[redgreenandblue]

24. The cultural contribution to what happened in Abu Ghraib is obvious and undeniable. nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

57. Yes, and...?

Was there a point to that tu quoque response?

[flamingdem]

25. Women in those cultures participate in violence

against women who will not go along with Islamic customs.

[Lizzie Poppet]

58. Indeed. Their own worst enemies.

Kinda like working class people who vote Republican...

[MohRokTah]

6. A well cultured yeast can produce some damned fine beer. eom

[arely staircase]

9. Yes

I will take a liberal industrial democracy over a bass akwards theocracy any day.

[Bonx]

10. By my definition of 'better', yes. very much so.

'better' isn't universal though.
For example, some men prefer a strict patriarchal society with men having a dictatorial level of power over their family and home.

[Marrah_G]

11. Absolutely

[The2ndWheel]

12. It's not objective

We want it to be. If it were, everything would be easy. We've tried to make it objective, but fail to do so every time. That's why might has always made right, because that's been the only way to know for sure, at least to some extent, which culture is better.

Right and wrong, good and bad, just abstract concepts of the human imagination.

[EX500rider]

103. I don't know, I'd say objectively that human sacrifice culture (Aztec etc)

...is worse then current Western cultures. Or ones that practiced cannibalism.

[arely staircase]

110. unless you are cannibal or Aztec nobility

In which case those cultures fucking rock.

[EX500rider]

114. True but I think that's a matter more of perspective then objectivity.

And I'd say there are some absolutes about whether a culture is "worse" then others, ie ones where child abuse/human sacrifice/cannibalism are/were widely practiced.

[arely staircase]

126. As a practicing Christian I agree.

As a historian and armchair cultural anthropologist I am not sure.

Cannibalism is almost certainly bad for everyone's health and so is demonstrably 'bad'. Human sacrifice arguably only harms the sacrificed and could provide social cohesion as did the Aztec belief that the sun would only come out if you kept feeding it human flesh and blood. Again, both offend my liberal Christian morality.

[awake]

13. Yes the culture of kindness is better than the culture of Hate

The culture of Generosity is better than the culture of Greed

The culture of Inclusion is better than the culture of Exclusion

The culture of Wisdom is better than the culture of Stupidity

The culture of Love is better than the culture of Aggression

The culture of Awareness is better than the culture of Ignorance

The culture of Tolerance is better than the culture of Intolerance

[fleur-de-lisa]

15. You win!

[jwirr]

18. Exactly.

[The2ndWheel]

22. And which god is defining those cultures?

Because to human beings, all those words can mean many things to many different people.

[awake]

26. They are all defined by the Human Hart

[jberryhill]

34. "They are all defined by the Human Hart"

Well, Hart was a good representative of the culture of love, I suppose....

[MineralMan]

41. Buddhism IS an excellent culture, I agree.

It is far superior to today's Christianity-based cultures.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

47. And just how far have women's rights and LGBT rights

progressed in those cultures?

The average woman? Not some exceptional female leader.

[TheSarcastinator]

94. more context is needed for a proper perspective

Buddhism may not have quite the violent histories of Xtianity and Islam, but every belief system is capable of creating fanatics capable of atrocity. For context you might take a look at the recent history of Burma: tens if not hundreds of thousands of Muslim men, women and children have been slaughtered by your "far superior" religion.

I earned one of my graduate degrees from the only accredited Buddhist University in North America and quickly learned that non-American Buddhists are much more honest about the shortcomings and difficult histories of their own religion than are American adherents and dabblers to that same perspective, let alone American Xtians.

Americans tend to oversimplify and glorify Eastern philosophies; it is a common initial response to ideas that expand one's understanding of the world. As early enthusiasm it is fine but if allowed to fester is just as ugly as any other type of cultural generalization.

[arely staircase]

113. I think LGBT folks would be much more welcomed by New England Episcopalians than Tibetan

Buddhists.

[Humanist_Activist]

122. No it isn't, I knew a Buddhist who studied to be a Nun, she was born here...

went to SE Asia to study, and the women were literally given the scraps the men left over, they were treated, as she put it, "like dogs".

[arely staircase]

131. "From a Buddhist point of view, men-to-men and women-to-women is generally considered sexual

misconduct."

The Dalai Lama

[gollygee]

139. That religion isn't perfect either. N/t

[hifiguy]

121. Lovely post.

Thanks!

[linuxman]

16. Without question.

[SummerSnow]

19. I think Culture Club rocked in the 80's

[WinkyDink]

124. Ha! They rocked last summer when I saw them, too!

[redgreenandblue]

20. I think the culture that brought the holocaust, carpet bombing and nuclear warfare into the world ..

... can hardly be called "better" than anyone else, at any rate.

[mwrguy]

53. Very good point

The west cannot afford to throw stones.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

129. But we don't support or want the carpet bombing etc

It is much different when people personally support and carry out the hidious acts and customs of their culture.

[redgreenandblue]

167. The Iraq war had plenty of support from "enlightened" Europeans and Americans.

Also, here a report on an excellent analysis on which "culture" is most comfortable with killing civilians.

Hint: Not the Muslims.

[Fumesucker]

172. Collateral damage in a campaign of shock and awe to win their hearts and minds

[Boudica the Lyoness]

182. When they took the survey in the UK

did they ask the person "Are you white British"?

Did they?

[WinkyDink]

132. We can't overlook human/civil rights, medical advances, etc. Yes, it will forever be

an unanswerable question as to how the land of philosophy and Classical music could lead to Auschwitz; how the New Jerusalem could drop 2 atomic bombs as well as Agent Orange on civilians.

[EX500rider]

150. Warfare is ugly in all cultures.

The 100,000 to 200,000 killed in the city of Isfahan, Persia by Timur/Tamerlane (he made towers out of their heads) weren't any less dead then the victims of aerial bombing, nor were the 500,000–1,000,000 Tutsi hacked to death by the Hutu in Rwanda any less dead ....for examples.

[theboss]

21. I actually have to say I'm surprised (and pleased) by the responses here

I was expecting a lot of posts implying I was a bigot.

[hunter]

142. Well, you probably are in many ways.

We humans are a bigoted lot.

[Rex]

161. SO that was what you wanted to happen?

Looks like you learned a lesson today or not.

[LittleBlue]

27. Unquestionably yes

The cultures that are congruent with a prosperous, tolerant, secular society are undoubtedly superior.

Cultures that don't respect women are inferior. How this has become debatable on DU, that is a wonder.

[840high]

180. ...+1

[whatthehey]

28. The only tricky concept there is "better"

Let's be honest and talk about mainstream Islamic culture compared to secular Western culture. We cannot realistically compare extremes such as, say, ISIS compared to Eugene Debs because such contrasts are too wide qualitatively and too narrow quantitatively.

Better for whom? If we ask in terms of traditional liberal social concerns such as the equality of women, the rights of religious or irreligious minorities, equal rights for gays etc then it is ludicrous to say that Western culture is not demonstrably better. Yes Yes Yes I'm sure you all have a buddy Sharif who's more liberal than I'll ever be but now we're back to that narrow quantitative bit just in reverse. No review of national legal structures, public attitudes, or religious opinion can be found that shows Muslims as a whole are better aligned with majority DU opinion on such issues.

Islam evolved differently from Christianity for various historical reasons. From the beginning it was a religion with civil authority and religious authority at the same time. It was spread very rapidly amongst and by civil leaders rather than slowly through mostly oppressed groups. Within decades of its founding it controlled and drove a literal empire. Christianity became the official religion of an empire only after centuries and wasn't the driving force behind an empire for almost a millennium. This makes Islam, also demonstrably, better than Western secular culture in maintaing ingroup cohesion especially in the face of ethnic or regional diversity due to its authoritarian and governmental pedigree. Iran has a population that is only 65% Persian, but 90%+ Shia and 98%+ Muslim. It has crime rated massively lower than ours. So if you ask a devout Shiite male in Iran if his culture is better he will assuredly say yes and with, for him, very good reason. Now if he were gay, or an atheist, or a woman, or Allah help them all three, that opinion would be, however briefly, quite different.

[redgreenandblue]

30. When it comes to women's, gay rights etc., "Western culture" is at best barely a generation ahead.

Plenty of female heads of state in Islamic countries.

That, and Islamic countries did not in fact produce two world wars with millions of deaths.

It all depends on which aspects of "culture" one focuses on.

[jberryhill]

35. The US has never elected a woman president, in contrast to the Pakistanis, who elected a woman PM

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

49. And you'd rather be a woman in Pakistan?

[jberryhill]

59. No

But the point is about generalizing.

Would you rather be Malala Yousafzai, who was shot in the head by the Taliban?

Why does she not denounce Islam?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

61. She lives in England, now, with good reason

She and her father are in fear for their lives if they go back...because that culture is dangerous for women like her!

And she doesn't denounce Islam for the same reason that every brainwashed, religious person doesn't denounce his or her religion. She "believes."

[geek tragedy]

72. It seems Malala prefers to live in a culture where men don't shoot girls for going to school.

She lives in England now.

She was trying to change the culture in the Waziristan area, and it doesn't appear her side is winning that culture war.

[whatthehey]

93. ...and then they killed her, to be fair

[JI7]

97. she was part of a political family with power. same with indira gandhi

For most women things are better in the west .

When in saudi arabia the women from elite families will have it better.

But those don't represent most of the country .

[davidn3600]

184. Much of the world has had a female leader at one time or another

The Ancient Egyptians had Cleopatra and Hatshepsut along with some pretty powerful women like Nefertiti. Does that make Ancient Egypt a more advanced civilization than we are today?

[katsy]

60. Western culture just a generation ahead?

Srsly? Name the date of the last STATE SPONSORED execution of a woman for adultry or a gay person.

There is no law allowing the shit that happens in Saudi Arabia or daesh here in the US.

One generation? Where'd you pull that piece of fiction from?

[redgreenandblue]

165. A quick browse of the Wikipedia page on LGBT rights in Europe ...

... tells me that it took many European countries until the 1940s to decriminalize homosexual acts.

In the USA, same-sex sexual activity was not legal nationwide until as late as 2003.

Homosexuality has been legal in Turkey since 1858.

[katsy]

171. When was the last stoning of a woman who committed adulatory here?

When was the last time gay men were thrown off buildings here in the US?

And one thing you missed: have OUR LAWS sanctioned these atrocities?

Where in our form of govt has murder/genocide been sanctioned?

No christian fundy asshole can hide behind the law to justify murder and torture. They commit a crime? They answer for their crimes.

When's the last time an atheist was beheaded here? I mean a legally sanctioned beheading.

:crickets:

[smirkymonkey]

175. Yes, absolutely.

I do think some cultures are superior to others precisely for the reasons that you named.

[whatthehey]

69. Centuries

There were female heads of state well before Islam existed too, but please tell me you realize heads of state do not indicate the general status of demographic minorities in their nations. We have a president who identifies openly with his black ancestral component. Does that mean there is no institutional or cultural racism in the US?

[Nye Bevan]

40. "Wanting to maintain ingroup cohesion in the face of ethic diversity"......

another example of this would be a member of the KKK believing that Klan culture is superior.

[whatthehey]

66. Not quite. They are pretty much by definition AGAINST ethnically diverse ingroups.

[PeteSelman]

29. Absolutely. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

Western liberal democracies are absolutely better than Middle Eastern theocracies or authoritarian dictatorships.

There's no question.

[redgreenandblue]

32. If they actually live up to the standards that they proclaim that is.

When you preach liberalism but supply the worst authoritarian groups in the world with weapons you don't really have a high horse to sit on.

[PeteSelman]

37. That's just business.

Our society is way better. Again, pretending otherwise is ridiculous.

[redgreenandblue]

42. "Liberalism, except when it interferes with business" - I guess that neatly sums it up.

I guess some would call that "better". I would call it hypocritical.

When Western nations stop funding, aiding and supplying dictatorial regimes and obstructing democratic developments, then I might start buying the story of the "better culture".

[PeteSelman]

54. Go over there and try to live like you do here.

You're being deliberately obtuse.

None of us have any say in whether or not the powers that be sell weapons or whatever. It's just foolish to pretend what you can do in Denver or Miami isn't better than what you can do in Saudi Arabia. Incredibly foolish.

Living conditions are better by a gigantic magnitude.

[redgreenandblue]

166. Standards of living is not the entirety of "culture".

What's hidden in your basement matters.

[whathehell]

31. Yes.

[Codeine]

33. Yes. It's fucking stupid to pretend otherwise.

I've never understood the leftist urge toward relativism.

[The2ndWheel]

44. It's like religion

Do this, don't do that. Why? God says so.

Do this, don't do that. Why? Culture says so.

Nobody has to look very far to see the conflict that comes from that. Where does objective truth come from? Is it carved in stone somewhere? Is there a book that's been written? Laws that never change?

[Nye Bevan]

36. Absolutely.

A culture where gay people can get married and head up multibillion dollar corporations is superior to one where people are stoned to death or thrown off buildings for being gay, to take one example.

[bemildred]

38. Why yes, of course, mine is the best. nt

[LanternWaste]

43. Does better in this context mean more righteous?

Does better in this context mean more righteous, more equitable, more tolerant, more welcoming, more effective at developing and implementing policy, feeds and/or houses the most per capita, provides higher education as a benefit of living in that culture, etc?

There are many, many strands to any given culture, and objective measurements of those strands requires a measured standard of ethics and morality that does not exist.

[Nye Bevan]

52. Women being allowed to drive is a good start.

Women being allowed to socialize with male friends is another. Then there's not stoning people to death for adultery, as well as that whole throwing gay men from buildings to execute them thing.

Not long ago one of the biggest issues on DU was bakers refusing to cater gay weddings. I guarantee that for a gay couple in the Middle East, a baker declining to make them a wedding cake is not at the top of their list of worries.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

45. Hell, yeah!

This culture is better than what we had in 1800.

This culture is better than any backwards culture dominated by a religion that denies women and gays freedom and autonomy.

And some cultures are more progressive and I would say better than us, imo. Sweden comes to mind. Not better in all ways, but quite a bit more progressive in other ways.

And I think that some religions are better able to adapt and progress more than others, and it's just a fact that women and LBGT folk have progressed much farther in cultures that were/or are nominally or predominantly christian. Sure, you can probably name some exceptions, but they are the exceptions.

[KamaAina]

48. Absolutely. Culture Club rules!

[katsy]

51. If a culture encourages mysogyny and bigotry

at its religious foundation then no it's not equal or a "culture" IMO.

It's a bunch of criminals pushing the envelope.

I'm on the fence with purported "cultures" that have at their core caste systems also, like India. its an odious practice. Nothing "cultural" there.

Some beliefs that people hide behind are just human rights atrocities. And those archaic beliefs are atrocities regardless of how hard they try to paint crimes as cultural peculiarities.

[Nye Bevan]

65. Over 70% of Pakistanis support stoning to death as a punishment for adultery.

At least 95% of Pakistanis are Muslim (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Pakistan); 84% of Pakistani Muslims support making Sharia the law of the land, and of these 84%, 89% support stoning to death as a punishment for adultery. Doing the math, 95% * 84% * 89% = 71% of Pakistanis support stoning to death for adultery.

So is this really "a bunch of criminals pushing the envelope" as opposed to truly a "culture"? When 71% of people support something doesn't that make it kind of a cultural norm?





See: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

[katsy]

68. My mistake. It is cultural.

And it's criminal IMO.

[smirkymonkey]

176. Based upon this, I would say absolutely.

No question.

[hunter]

56. I'm an equal opportunity hater of all human cultures.

We have the freedom to say whatever we like here in the U.S.A., so long as it's inconsequential, so long as it's not pissing in the wealthy white guy's pond. Our taxes are taken from us to build expensive weapons that we use to intimidate the rest of the world, which is why many other cultures hate us. Building and maintaining aircraft carriers named after flaming assholes is obviously more important than making sure everyone has good food, good schools, safe and secure shelter, appropriate medical care

Why should I admire that?

Nationalism of any sort blows chunks.



It's as bad as racism.

People are people wherever you go, wherever they come from.

Some people suck. The people who suck, you have to deal with on an individual basis, providing opportunities for them to become part of a positive community, not a culture that sucks.

U.S. cultures that suck:

Gun humpers, gangs, misogynists and racists of all creeds and colors, fascists, many police forces, Wall Street, U.S. Republicans and many Democrats, evil clowns occupying widlife refuges, consumers of high energy industrial goods (such as automobiles), and so on...

Like I said, I probably hate most human cultures. I probably think your culture sucks.

If we want a better world maybe we should figure out how to give every family a little house and a garden, (a garden they can grow tomatoes, cucumbers, dill, and cannabis in, anything they please...) and from there work our way up to a culture that doesn't suck.

Alas, that would not be a world that easily supports billionaires, dictators, religious charlatans, and all the other megalomaniacs assholes who's greatest passion is making other people do their bidding as slaves, wage slaves, pet politicians, or sycophants.

[SamKnause]

62. Yes.

Hell yes !!!

[d_r]

63. In my idea of ethics

universal human rights trump culture.

[deathrind]

64. So basically.

Is one human better than another human...because there is no culture with out the human.

[Nye Bevan]

73. An Islamic father helped stone his own daughter to death for adultery.

Am I, and is every other DUer, a better person than this man? Yes.

(Warning- distressing images at link)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sickening-isis-video-shows-moment-4475785

[deathrind]

77. And...

A Christian shot a man dead for not believing in God...

A Jewish person stabbed a lady dead for being in a gay pride parade...

None of these examples are good, yours or mine and I will give the benefit of the doubt that you are better than all 3 examples but I don't know you...I have never met you so you could be anything as far as I am concerned...but at the end of the day it was a human and a belief system in a very specific environment that created each one of those tragedies above. Most humans have the capacity to be either a saint or a sinner they always have.

[Bonx]

78. Muslim culture supports death for women committing adultery

Muslim culture supports death for apostasy.
Muslim culture supports death for homosexuality.
Christian and Jewish cultures do not.

Islamic State fighter publicly executes own mother
"BEIRUT — Even by Islamic State standards, the accusation seems shocking. Earlier this week, Syrian activists say, a militant from the notoriously brutal group stood in front of a crowd, condemned his own mother and then shot her in the head.

The execution took place in Raqqa, a city in eastern Syria that is the Islamic State’s self-declared capital, according two prominent groups that monitor the Syrian civil war."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/08/islamic-state-fighter-publicly-executes-his-mother-report-says/

[deathrind]

80. Have you ever read

Leviticus?

[Bonx]

82. Have you ever read the news ?

Are there groups of Christians (or Jews) practicing death sentences for apostasy, homosexuality and/or adultery in front of cheering crowds ?

[deathrind]

86. Yes...

Have you?

Have you seen the push back against marriage equality?

Have you read about the violence to women's clinics?

Have you read about domestic violence?

[Bonx]

95. If you're changing the subject

I've got other things to do.
None of those are remotely similar to religion endorsed death sentences in front of cheering crowds.

[deathrind]

100. U are right..

"None of those are remotely similar"

/facepalm

[Bonx]

101. Thank you for agreeing.

It was really the only rational option.

[deathrind]

102. You are welcome.

Good luck with that idea that anyone belief is better than the other.

[Bonx]

107. I have already qualified that 'better' not a universally accepted condition.

People that prefer a brutal theocratic patriarchal society with death sentences for apostasy, homosexuality etc. would not find the culture of a free democratic society that values i9ndividual rights 'better'.

[deathrind]

117. Out of curiosity.

You honestly believe. That if we did not have a Federal / State / Local law enforcement structure (as most developed countries do) that these things would not happen in other religions?

Bear in mind there is currently a State Supreme Court Judge defying the "free democratic values" you mention.

[Bonx]

127. Our 'Federal / State / Local law enforcement structure (as most developed countries do)'

is a result of our culture, including religion (primarily Protestant Christianity).
'Federal / State / Local law enforcement structure' didn't just spring up from nowhere and protect us from Christianity and Judaism.

[deathrind]

136. Ok

I disagree with your assessment of where our law enforcement structure sprang up from but fair enough.

[Nye Bevan]

104. Over 70% of Pakistanis support adulterers being stoned to death.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7511029

Get back to me when 70% of US Christians support bombing Planned Parenthood clinics.

[LittleBlue]

143. We discarded those rules centuries ago

We now base law on reason, which is why you don't see secular western countries permitting the stoning their children or child brides.

[deathrind]

146. It is still in the book. N/T

[LittleBlue]

152. Our societal rules and laws aren't based on that book, though

That is the difference.

Sharia law is the law of the land in many of those countries. If we applied the same to the United States, gay people would be getting executed by the state simply for being gay. That doesn't happen. Rape victims aren't forced to marry their rapists. Little girls aren't legally marrying old men.

The cultures that accept insane, centuries-old religious laws are not as good as our cultures.

[redgreenandblue]

170. Homosexuality was not legal nationwide in the USA until 2003.

Centuries ago my ass.

70 years ago a white person in Tennessee could shoot a black person in front of 30 witnesses and never fear prosecution. My grandmother saw it happen as a child.

[Facility Inspector]

134. yes, absotively

without question.

[bluedigger]

67. I think some cultures are better at some things than others.

I tend to think human culture is just an attempt to solve problems arising from human interaction in groups. It's not a static thing, but capable of change and evolution. The culture of the US in 1865 and today is both the same and different. The mideast culture that we find easy to disparage today is the same that gave us algebra.

[Coventina]

70. As many other have said: Yes - obviously

[ancianita]

74. Diet or other particulars aside, the majority culture claims accommodation rights to demand minority

cultures' accommodations to them -- at least in the public sphere. This is my frame for "better." I'm not sure if any are "better," but that's up to the populations that adhere to different cultural norms.

Whether the majority's forced cultural accommodations in the public sphere eventually change hearts and minds of the minority culture in the private sphere predicts whether or not cultural segregation or overall cultural blending will evolve in the public sphere.

Liberal Westerners often count on that happening, and believe that one generation will have to pass before minority cultures blend in with majority cultures. I think, however, it depends on the rigidity of minority cultural enforcements.

Religious segregation is the tough 'cultural' nut to crack, since its particularly rigid with Muslims.

[demwing]

75. Sure - for example

A nice blend of Lactobacillus bulgaricus & Streptococcus thermophilus cultures can be quite yummy. Contrast to an HSV culture, which should be kept away from the mouth at all costs?

Yep, some cultures are most certainly better than others.

[kiva]

76. Yes.

I'm a woman and if I had a choice of where to live - not as a tourist or westerner, but a member of that society - there are a lot of places I would reject based on how those societies work.

[EdwardBernays]

81. yeppers

but the American culture is sadly not one of the all time greats... at least its not yet... we live in hope..

[philosslayer]

83. Absolutely

Lets see, the American culture has been responsible for slavery, Jim Crow, the detonation of nuclear weapons over civilian populations, and the invasion of multiple Middle Eastern countries. Oh yes, absolutely. Some cultures are better than others.

[XemaSab]

85. Name one other culture that doesn't have blood on its hands

Humans are inherently violent.

[katsy]

88. Are you using the atrocities committed by western culture

as an excuse for Muslim support for sharia law? It's ok for them to stone women, throw gay men off buildings and behead apostates because somewhere in human history we have blood on our hands?

Fail.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

141. Same poster suggested the attacks were by tanned white men.

[philosslayer]

144. Nope

Try again. I did no such thing.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

147. This wasn't you agreeing this was a false flag op?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1306156

[philosslayer]

151. You said....

That I implied the attack was by "tanned white men". I repeat, I did no such thing. Keep looking though.

[katsy]

185. Yeah I got the "but everyone

is guilty" gist of all their posts.

The problem is murder and torture and rape are ILLEGAL in western cultures. Perpetrators will be tried in courts.

Muslim countries? Not so much. Allah says it's ok to kill certain segments of society allah finds offensive.

Fuck allah fuck islam and fuck law by religious fiction

Send those rapists back to where they came and let them fight for their country and live by their own insane ways.

[redgreenandblue]

183. Well, the thread is about *comparing* cultures.

The premise was put up that Western nations are superior. The atrocities are evidence contrary to this.

[katsy]

186. The western justice system IS superior

[Angel Martin]

89. The United States of America

no-one had ever heard of slavery until America invented it.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

137. You forgot the little sarcasm thingy.

[TeddyR]

96. America

Is not "responsible" for slavery. That's a ridiculous statement. Slavery existed in numerous parts of the world (and still does today) well before the Atlantic slave trade began, and even the Atlantic slave trade was first focused in South America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade.

The US detonated nuclear weapons over a country that (1) attacked Pearl Harbor for no reason whatsoever (2) along with Nazi Germany participated in war against the US and other countries for over 5 years, resulting in tens of millions of deaths.

Yeah, the US invaded Iraq, and yeah, it was a huge mistake. But identify one country that hasn't made mistakes.

Western culture, and more particularly the culture in the US, is definitely better than many other cultures, notably those of many countries in the Middle East and parts of Asia.

[whatthehey]

98. Genuine question: what do you see as the relationship between culture and government?

Benazir Bhutto has already, and predictably, been raised. Does that mean Pakistan is not patriarchal and misogynistic?

We have President Obama. Are we no longer racist?

To what extent do leader-driven geopolitics reflect populace-driven social culture?

Please note this really is a question and I'm not suggesting zero connection at all. But I would disagree with perfect correlation too.

[cali]

108. And German Culture was responsible for genocide. As was Cambodian Culture and Tutsi culture

Chinese, Russia, Turkey and on and on.

[Nye Bevan]

111. "The American culture has been responsible for slavery".

Really, do you have any idea how utterly ridiculous that statement is?

[Bluenorthwest]

140. The African slave trade was an Arabic trade for centuries before any European fell so low.

In fact, the Arabic slavers traded in Europeans as well as Africans and their raids to capture people were just one aspect of the violent territorial aggression and occupation that was the centuries of Muslim Incursions in Europe. History is a hell of a thing, kid. You should learn some.

[Yo_Mama]

84. Of course!!! No one here would want to live in midde-aged Christendom.

Everyone here believes this, even if they don't want to say it.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

173. I would rather live as one wife in middle-aged Christendom

than one of four wives in the present day Saudi Arabia.

Looking at it like that, I realize how freaking awful it would be to be a woman in Saudi Arabia, cause I sure as hell wouldn't relish being a woman in the middle ages!

[Arugula Latte]

87. Yes. Those that treat women better, respect nature and science,

have fewer religious zealots and religious people in general, and have a concept of animal welfare are much better, IMO.

[HassleCat]

91. Absolutely

I am a humanist, and some cultures conform to humanist values much more closely than others.

[Iggo]

92. Yeah, but I'm biased.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

99. There are no facts, only interpretations. Friedrich Nietzsche

Is Chow Mein better than Enchiladas? Bach better than the Beatles? Oud music better than trombone music? Roman art better than Greek art? Saris more elegant than kimonos?

Are refugees better citizens than non-refugees?

[theboss]

105. Immigrants who don't travel in rape packs are better than those who do

We can agree on this, correct?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. Would that apply to non-immigrants who travel in rape packs?

Should we bar immigration because some immigrants rape, steal, murder? My mother, grandmother, some uncles and aunts were all immigrants. To my knowledge (and, I'm very confident about this), none of them traveled in packs or raped anyone despite being Irish and (for the most part) Christian.

[WinkyDink]

125. Can you come up with an example? I mean, from this century and not the 13th?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

138. Of course.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/rape-statistics/

Average number of rape cases reported in the US annually 89,000
Percent of women who experienced an attempted or completed rape 16 %
Percent of men who experienced an attempted or completed rape 3 %
Decline in rape rate since 1993 60 %
Percent of rapes that are never reported to authorities 60 %
Percent of college rapes that are never reported to authorities 95 %

Countries With Highest Rape Rates

Lesotho 91.6
Trinidad and Tobago 58.4
Sweden 53.2
Korea 33.7
New Zealand 30.9
United States 28.6
Belgium 26.3
Zimbabwe 25.6
United Kingdom

Countries With Lowest Rape Rates Rate / 100,000
Egypt 0.1
Azerbaijan 0.3
Armenia 0.6
Syrian Arab Republic 0.7
Turkey 1.4
Sierra Leone 1.4
Canada 1.5
Ukraine 1.9
Kenya 1.9
Belarus 2.5

[kiva]

153. To make the statistics have value,

you need to define rape - in many countries, for example, a husband cannot rape his wife, and/or sex workers cannot be raped. You would also have to ensure that the countries treat rape victims fairly and actually prosecute rapists, since these factors make a huge difference in rape statistics.

If these two things are considered, I suspect the chart would look very different.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

159. I define rape as forcing anyone, for any reason, to participate in sexual acts they don't want to.

As for "ensuring" countries treat rape victims fairly, I can't do that. Women in this country are sexually abused at an alarming, shocking, rate. Is it American "culture" that causes it?

Those that perpetrate sexual abuse are criminals and should be treated as such no matter what their "culture" or where they are.

[kiva]

181. In the U.S. a woman can go to a bar alone,

dressed however she pleases, and if she is drugged and raped she can report the rape and it will show up in the statistics. A woman can report a date rape. If a girl's father/uncle/cousin/brother molests her and she is able to report it, it will show up in those statistics. Can you really say that about many of those countries on that list? Would a wife claiming that her husband raped her even get a hearing from the police in many of those countries?

I agree that women are raped and abused at an alarming rate here, but comparing rates of assault against many of those countries is like comparing apples and oranges - there is no way to make an accurate comparison.

[katsy]

154. There are criminal elements across ALL cultures BUT

there is no cultural support for these crimes. There is no belief, fatwas or jihads supporting criminal acts. The Italian govt and Catholic Church didn't teach young Italian men to go rape apostate non Italian girls. Crime knows no religious belief. Your example is poor.

Contrast that with Islam which embraces punishments for being apostate, gay, western women who dare be first class citizens worthy of every right.

No Islam is not a peaceful religion. It's a culture of archaic repression, intolerance and torture.

A DUer shared this info with me earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7511029

Those stats are not stats of a peaceful culture.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

158. Post not found.

Not peaceful?

Is American culture peaceful? Christian culture? Military culture? Sports culture? How about Indian/Hindu culture?

As a pacifist I'm against killing, rape, assault, etc. No matter what "culture" they spring from. Do most Muslims rape, kill, assault, other people?

I'm also against repression of any kind against anyone.

Blaming immigrants for rape is like blaming immigrants for any other crime.

Some do commit crimes, most don't.

I'm an ex Catholic, and my wife went through the Catholic educational system and is now an ex-Catholic. Not just Catholics, but a whole flock of other Christian denominations repress homosexuals, apostates, and women (whether western or not).

I see this OP as all too similar to RW posts about the inherent dangers of Latin, Asian, African, and Gay immigrants. Crime! AIDS! Rape! and all the rest of the Xenophobic/Racist crap.

[katsy]

163. Updated link

Are most Muslims criminals? No.

Is Islam peaceful or do they hold that fatwas and jihads are acceptable? Yes.

Does Islam repress woman, torture and kill gay men and apostates? YES.

As an atheist feminist with a gay child... I have a disdain for all religions that support the genocide of atheists gays and suppression of women. I'm against the death penalty and against any belief system that supports the death penalty.

Last I looked it wasn't modern Catholicism that did that.

As a progressive, I find support for any belief system that supports stonings, beheadings, throwing people off buildings is a RW value. Not a progressive one. So don't conflate XENOPHOBIA with progressive support of a HUMAN RIGHT not to be stoned for sexual activity, thrown off buildings for being gay and beheadings for athiests or apostates. That's just a dishonest manipulation of this discussion.

[treestar]

106. I don't think so much better but maybe more advanced?

The Romans for instance had made advances lost to the middle ages - yet they were still pretty savage with the animals and humans killed in the Coliseum for sport. But at their time, they did pretty well with art and keeping people fed, etc.

We are more advanced in our treatment of women than most middle eastern countries I would say. But that does not extend to our religion being better etc. We are also most advanced at making war, which is a good thing for our defense but does not make us "better" than others and that's why we should not be attacking them.

[closeupready]

109. How many Iraqi's died as a result of the Iraq War?

How many of them deserved to die? How many children deserved to lose their parents?

Nobody on this thread arguing 'some cultures are better than others' will respond to these questions.

And so goes DU's usefulness in changing minds.

[Humanist_Activist]

120. I will answer, to put a lie to your accusations....

No they didn't deserve to die, and I don't believe in a just war unless purely defensive.

Oh, by the way, this has nothing to do with the question posted in the OP.

[ck4829]

130. Too many. None. None.

I'm not sure what's going on. Primary season, maybe? People don't want to have their minds opened right now, only have their biases confirmed. It seems as though people are losing sight of the fact that reality is socially constructed, including what constitutes both 'culture' and 'better'.

[closeupready]

155. thank you. just ... thank you.

[Humanist_Activist]

115. Oh yes, I'm a humanist, any culture that values human lives and human rights over authoritarianism..

and oppression is superior than those who don't.

[hifiguy]

116. Beyond any possible question.

Can any rational and sensible person not think so?

[dembotoz]

118. can we avoid the arrogance attached to we is better than you bullshit

seems we always want to chant usa usa right before we really fuck some other folks over.

to have pride is good but not to the point of feeling superior to others lest we become the assholes of the west.

how would that make us different than isis, the fatherland during ww2 and any other bunch of world dominance assholes

[Matrosov]

119. hypocrisy

One thing that bothers me about some fellow progressives is their hypocrisy on the subject.

For example, on the subject of the death penalty, they'll cite countries like Saudi Arabia to make an argument against capital punishment (and for the record, I'm against capital punishment as well)

On the other hand, if someone claims our culture is superior to that of, say, Saudi Arabia, they'll immediately turn around and say there are no better or worse cultures, just different cultures.

You can't have it both ways.

As for me, I'd argue that while there's no culture that's close to perfect, there are plenty of culture that are better than one where homosexuality is punishable by death and where women are treated as objects (and yes, that might have been the case for plenty of cultures in the West in the past as well, at least we've been trying to make it out of the dark ages, unlike the Arabian Peninsula)

[redgreenandblue]

169. Homosexuality was not legal nationwide in the USA until 2003.

Whereas it has been legal in Turkey since 1858.

Also, the USA ranks among the highest in approval for targeting civilians directly in warfare (not as collateral damage but as primary targets).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017316207

[WinkyDink]

123. Yes. I have zero qualms about asserting so.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

128. Better is not a well-defined term, but the answer to most clarifications of the question is "yes".

[Quantess]

133. What a dilemma!

Do we women and gays stand up to degrading cultural values?
Or do we just take it?

For once and for all all, religion does NOT equal race, so please don't call it racism.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

135. in some respects, yes, but the story is always more complicated

some European cultures robbed other countries blind for a while, and left them in a state of disrepair. these cultures have then had a really hard time (socially, politically, economically) to move to more progressive values.

take for example what the Belgian did to the Congo in the last century including chopping the arms of the Congolese in the name of 'civilizing the savages', it makes these a-historic perspectives of current cultural discrepancies seem like a convenient narrative.

look at how many Iraqis we killed for no rhyme or reason, and yet we persist in thinking we are a superior culture.

[closeupready]

157. Amen, Goddess.

Recently, I watched "Out of Africa", and that nuanced subtext was absent, for obvious reasons.

[H2O Man]

148. Recommendation #2!

The question posed in the OP is interesting. The responses are hilarious. While some of the answers display rational thought, the majority rank among the most confused and illogical that I've seen on DU:GD. Gracious! They are nothing, if not projections by their authors.

[mwrguy]

149. “What Do You Think of Western Civilization?”

“I Think It Would Be a Good Idea”

Gandhi

[Rex]

160. Why would the more educated party have problems with a subjective question?

At least we know what cultures are, unlike the idiot party.

[Blecht]

162. When comparing the culture I am from to another, one of two things usually applies

1. The grass is always greener ...
That is when I overlook the negatives and think the other culture is "better".

2. The devil you know ...
That is when I think both are fucked up, but I prefer to stay in the one that I am familiar with.

[Dems to Win]

164. Yes. I'm a feminist. I've never been a multi-culturelist n/t

[redgreenandblue]

168. Approval for killing civilians is higher in the USA and Israel than most other countries.

Also, Great Britain ranks up there.

Is it a "cultural" thing?

[katsy]

179. It doesn't matter

If you target civilians for execution here in the US or England, you are committing a crime and will be subject to our laws. No one has a lock on criminal elements.

A better poll, would be more specific:

1. Is the stoning of a woman who commits adultry acceptable?

2. Is the murder of gays acceptable?

3. Is the beheading of apostates and atheists acceptable?

I can't tell by the question or response of the poll as it stands if the respondents even consider women, gays, atheists or apostates as civilians in their societies. They may be responding for their straight male counterparts only.

That crime, criminals and violence exist across all societies is a given. Giving sanction to crimes, genocide and torture is peculiar to Islam today. They are a toxic theocratic form of governance.

[bdwker]

174. I used to think no...

but it seems that there is a big problem out there now.

[jberryhill]

177. Yes. I think New England culture is better than Southern Culture

[smirkymonkey]

178. Yes, absolutely.