Do you call Chelsea Manning, Chelsea Manning?

[NCTraveler]

How about calling all women by their fucking names.

This shouldn't need to be said.

[hrmjustin]

1. Huge K&R!

[JonLeibowitz]

2. DU Rec. I agree with you. Some disagree.

[NCTraveler]

3. You are looking in your neighbors back yard.

While the kitchen right here is on fire.

[JonLeibowitz]

4. I don't know what that means, but I take it you agree with me. n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

6. Where is this from?

[JonLeibowitz]

9. I assume I am allowed to post links to external sites(someone please correct me if I am wrong)?

http://hillaryclintonsupporters.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4418&start=225#p40724

[JustAnotherGen]

17. Maybe because

Cha and bravenak aren't banned it's okay?

All I know is I'm tired of screen shots from other sites. Over and over and over again.

Who cares what folks say when they aren't at DU?

[OilemFirchen]

47. Manny writes "articles" now?

For whom? The Weston Town Crier?

[JustAnotherGen]

21. I don't know if you can or not

But so far as I know, DU standards can't be applied elsewhere.

[JonLeibowitz]

23. I just want to counter the myth that Sanders supporters are misogynistic to point out her biases.

That's all.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Well - I can't stand

Andrea Mitchell Greenspan. Can't stand her. Most liberals and progressives cannot stand her.


I would think this is one journalist (ugh - just threw up in my mouth a little bit typing that) that no one can stand and no one should care if we say offensive things about. She's not that far from George Will - I think they were twins separated at birth.

[maxsolomon]

5. I don't even remember her previous name

But simply "Manning" works well, either way.

[HassleCat]

7. My name is mine

A person should be called whatever they choose, as illustrated by the Monty Python sketch about the guy who named himself Raymond Luxury Yacht, then changed it to Throat Warbler Mangrove. We need to show some basic human respect. We don't tell people to their faces that we think they fat or ugly, so let's not tell them, "I think your name is ridiculous and I refuse to use it."

[Bluenorthwest]

13. " No no no, it's spelled, "Raymond Luxury Yacht," but it's pronounced, "Throat Warbler Mangrove"."

No name change involved.

[HassleCat]

25. I would have to look at the sketch again

My memory is, the talk show host introduces his guest as Raymond Luxury Yacht, and the guest correct his pronunciation by saying it's pronounced "Raymond Luxury Yatcht." Then he claims it's Throat Warbler Mangrove. Then he claims it's some nonsense assembly of random syllables.

[Iggo]

36. They introduce him as Raymond Luxury Yacht, pronouncing the -ch- in Yacht like in "church".

Then as he starts to correct them, and you think he's going to say Luxury Yacht, with the -ch- silent, in a masterful misdirection he says "No, no, no. It's pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove."

Classic.

[403Forbidden]

8. Is there a widespread phenomenon of calling women something other than their name?

[NCTraveler]

10. Historically? Yes. Didn't even know that was up for debate.

Currently? Yes. Didn't know that was up for debate either.

[403Forbidden]

11. I personally have not witnessed that phenomenon in my professional or leisure related encounters.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

16. Some people took offense that Andrea Mitchell was called Andrea Greenspan. We've done that here for

years and years. It's never come up before as an issue, but now that Sanders is kicking ass all over, some are jumping to Mitchell's defense.

[PersonNumber503602]

30. I must be really dense, 'cause I don't really see the tie in with Chelsea Manning

I mean, I could see a way to kinda make it work, but not really. I just deleted my response to the OP because I now see I was totally talking about something unrelated to what it's really about.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

34. I don't either. I see it as some people being upset and trying to gin up some rage.

[jmowreader]

44. Some people still call Chelsea Manning "Bradley Manning"

It is a strange tie, though: Chelsea Manning used the name Bradley for many years, but as far as I know Andrea Mitchell has never used the name "Greenspan." It's very rare for a woman who works in entertainment or the media to take her husband's name, though; remember all the great movies Elizabeth Hilton, Elizabeth Wilding, Elizabeth Todd, Elizabeth Fisher, Elizabeth Burton, Elizabeth Warner and Elizabeth Fortensky made?

[Marrah_G]

14. Some context would be great

[JonLeibowitz]

15. The context is people called Andrea Mitchell as Mrs Greenspan to point her ties to establishment.

This upset many people. They chose to call the people who would point out such context as misogynistic sexists.

No word yet on whether they think the conflict of interest is important.

[NCTraveler]

22. Just up thread you fully agree with me. Not so much now. lol. nt.

[JonLeibowitz]

26. I personally agree with the OP. I do not however think it is sexist to call her Mrs. Greenspan.

That is my view. Others may differ.

[PersonNumber503602]

27. Wait, what?

[Marrah_G]

29. Well, I do think it is crappy to refer to her just as her husband's wife.

BUT.... I also think that perhaps there could have been a better choice for a moderator. I don't believe this is an either/or argument. Her name is Andrea Mitchell and she has ties to the establishment.

[JonLeibowitz]

31. Yes. I think people are trying to be clever by referring to her by the name of the establishment

It is snarky and incorrect but not sexist. IMHO of course.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. What Marrah Said!

I obviously missed something

[Snobblevitch]

18. What am I missing?

What brings this up?

[uppityperson]

20. What?

[rock]

32. ?

I repeat, "?".

[403Forbidden]

33. Wait, is this whole thread about people calling Andrea Mitchell "Andrea Greenspan"? Oh come on...

...if people are calling her Andrea Greenspan, they aren't doing it to disparage her as a woman. They are doing it to disparage her thoughts/actions.

It's like calling Chelsea Manning "Benedict Arnold"...it has nothing to do with Manning's sexual identity.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

35. They're doing it to make sure people know she's the wife of the former Fed chariman.

They're doing it to make sure people know that the moderator of the debate was in no way impartial.

[NCTraveler]

37. That is called defining a woman by way of her husband and is very transparent. nt.

[pintobean]

38. Convicted traitor Manning.

Chelsea Elizabeth Manning[4 (born Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier who was convicted in July 2013 of violations of the Espionage Act and other offenses, after disclosing to WikiLeaks nearly three-quarters of a million classified or unclassified but sensitive military and diplomatic documents.[5] Manning was sentenced in August 2013 to 35 years' imprisonment, with the possibility of parole in the eighth year, and to be dishonorably discharged from the Army].

[Bluenorthwest]

39. How did DU respond to Manning's name change? Not very well. In a thread about calling her Chelsea

one straight DUer responded with this: The convicted felon who handed over state secrets to a foreign national. That was easy..That is what I call the former Private Bradley Manning.Next?"
And
"I will say that comparing the Manning name issue to a bride changing a surname through marriage is ridiculous at best and disingenuous at worst. The two situations are not analogous. A bride is not deciding to change genders when the surname is changed."
And
"The easiest thing to do is to just use the last name: Manning."

And
"When Manning is able to make a statement in public without any possibility of coercion, I will accept whatever label is requested.
Until then, isn't this too much like raw meat for the right, "hey look what the left is giving you, gays in the military and now a transgender traitor"? "

And
"So this Manning person declares one day "I am a woman" OK, so you're a woman. Big deal. Wanna be Chelsea, be Chelsea.
But, if you declared yourself Native American, would everyone have to call you that, too?"

And the succinct
" I don't have a problem calling him Chelsea."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023533801#post3

That's all from one thread in which people also complain about all the other threads about calling her by her own name being so challenging for some.

Why do you ask?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

40. I'd appreciate your take on this.

So the reason this OP exists is because a Sanders supporter in GD_P referred to Andrea Mitchell as Andrea Greenspan. On that thread, and in others, accusations of sexism came up (she chose to keep her own last name; respect her right to do so, etc). The other side of the argument says that she was labelled Greenspan so that people would know she was not an impartial moderator. For my part, I completely agree with the latter. I've seen her called Greenspan here for years, and I've never taken it as a sexist term, but rather, a term that lets you know you're dealing with Big Money.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. I come from the 21st Century so I'm super used to married people with different names and I would

never use a name a person does not use for themselves. To make the point that Andrea Mitchell is married to Alan Greenspan, I say 'She's married to Alan Greenspan'. Or 'She's married to Alan Greenspan for the love of God'.

In the case of moderating the debate, she should have recused herself. Anyone who is in any way close to a person who has had conflict with any of the candidates should not be in the role of moderator. Period. There are many qualified persons to take that job. Bernie and Greenspan have locked horns, Mitchell and Greenspan are married, she should not moderate a debate with Bernie in it. Same if it was horns locked with Hillary's aunt. There should be no hint of bias.
And again, in my life a woman name Smith married to a man named Jones is never Jones. He's never Smith. It would not cross my mind to do that. It's just outside my entire universe of stuffs. I knew my own Uncles by their chosen or given nicknames. My Uncle George, whom I loved, I found out his name was freaking George at his funeral. Seriously. I was shocked.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

43. Thanks very much.

As usual, your answer is tight.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Making use of a person or issue to advance another person or issue is called 'exploitation' of the

person or issue. For that reason, I'm offering another of DU's greatest hits in the 'Badgering Private Manning' competition:

"I don't care if you call him/her Bradley or Chelsea.
I don't care if you refer to this person as "him" or "her".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023532610

[tblue37]

45. Of course. It is her name.

ON EDIT: Oh, I didn't realize this post was about Andrea Mitchell.

[Adrahil]

46. err yeah... of course. She is still a criminal. NT