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applegrove

(118,642 posts)
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:38 PM Feb 2016

Saying 'All Lives Matter' is the new wedge issue. Now that the confederate flag is gone

the GOP needed something that would slur African americans but in a more subtle way. Black Lives Matter is about value-ing lives that traditionally were not valued. It is about equality. It is not putting one set of lives above another. Saying All Lives Matter gaslights African americans. Don't be fooled. Don't use it. And don't hesitate to call out anyone who does.

I also think the GOP do not want activists negotiating with police on an equal footing. For sure it would be hard at first. But then issues of police training, community cooperation, police pay and hiring, black on black violence would inevitably be discussed. And solutions might come about. And peace and understanding of two groups on equal footing is not what the GOP, whose wedge issues are based on race during elections, do not want.

It is the perfect GOP wedge issues. Racists understand it as baiting BLM followers. Non racists or the naïve see it as a reasonable statement of the importance of life, all the while they spread the hate meme by repeating it.

43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Saying 'All Lives Matter' is the new wedge issue. Now that the confederate flag is gone (Original Post) applegrove Feb 2016 OP
Let's start with our own. demmiblue Feb 2016 #1
I agree on that point. applegrove Feb 2016 #2
I've had to explain this multiple times to relations on Facebook. gcomeau Feb 2016 #3
I've never hit like or share on any of those posts... Wounded Bear Feb 2016 #43
All Lives Matter NobodyHere Feb 2016 #4
and the results are in! yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #5
Thank you for posting this NobodyHere Feb 2016 #15
just so you know.. yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #17
So why do you think "All Lives Matter" is hideworthy? NobodyHere Feb 2016 #18
Yes. yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #25
"Any other interpretation is wrong." oberliner Feb 2016 #27
THAN READ THIS... yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #30
Another article by a "snarky young white man who thinks he knows everything" oberliner Feb 2016 #31
Fine, THAN this guy is black, are you happy? yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #32
That's a good, thoughtful article - not wannabe clever white boy snark like those other two oberliner Feb 2016 #33
Results of your Jury MrMickeysMom Feb 2016 #6
The problem with saying "All Lives Matter" is... RichGirl Feb 2016 #19
Actually NobodyHere Feb 2016 #20
Any argument against 'all lives matter' is ultimately going to end up looking dumb. Bonx Feb 2016 #21
In my opinion.... RichGirl Feb 2016 #38
co-opting the phrase "Black Lives Matter" lapfog_1 Feb 2016 #36
There are some white lives that don't seem to matter to folks oberliner Feb 2016 #28
That's like going to a cancer fundraiser... backscatter712 Feb 2016 #23
If the healthy person is homeless and starving NobodyHere Feb 2016 #24
No it's not oberliner Feb 2016 #29
Saying it is Denying the Victim. HughBeaumont Feb 2016 #34
Agreed, but I'm a little slow rock Feb 2016 #37
No. The wedge issue is "Blue Lives Matter" Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #8
Would you agree that the confederate flag as celebrated in the last 20 years was about keeping applegrove Feb 2016 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Feb 2016 #10
My worry is the All Lives Matter meme is spreading. Facebook CEO had to send a memo applegrove Feb 2016 #11
I love it when conservatives feign caring for others tenderfoot Feb 2016 #12
Maybe asking them about the death penalty would be a good comeback to 'but every life is important'. applegrove Feb 2016 #13
Agreed. You can't have all lives mattering until black lives matter just as much. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2016 #14
Yes. There is a movement in Canada called "Idle No More' of indigenous people. We applegrove Feb 2016 #16
I disagree NobodyHere Feb 2016 #22
The Problem with Saying ‘All Lives Matter’ yuiyoshida Feb 2016 #26
That has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read oberliner Feb 2016 #35
A better analogy MH1 Feb 2016 #39
That's a little better oberliner Feb 2016 #40
Thanks, by the way I should mention, I saw that somewhere on the Internet MH1 Feb 2016 #41
The confederate flag is not gone. I just saw one yesterday and it's still up in ms craigmatic Feb 2016 #42
 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
3. I've had to explain this multiple times to relations on Facebook.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:49 PM
Feb 2016

They kept sharing "All Lives Matter" or "Police Lives Matter" posts. And I'm quite confident most of them just didn't grasp the implications or background... they just saw the slogan and thought "well yes, that's true! All lives DO matter!" and hit like.


Since I started cluing them in the rate at which I see those things has fallen drastically.

Wounded Bear

(58,648 posts)
43. I've never hit like or share on any of those posts...
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 12:37 PM
Feb 2016

I let them die. Nobody has approached me about my stance, so I haven't elaborated.

Good on you, though.

The dog whistle politics of the right continue unabated.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
5. and the results are in!
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:02 PM
Feb 2016

On Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:58 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

All Lives Matter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7642864

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

GOP wedge issue

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:00 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Okay. I get it. It's not what BLM is about, but this should be a discussion with the poster to explain why this sentiment can be offensive in context, but not alert worthy IMHO.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Poster being an a**.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid can't be hidden just because it's stupid.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: stupid. someone needs a little education.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Who said it was a GOP wedge issue? The person who alerted did. Doesn't sound like a rule to me. It sounds like an opinion.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

 

NobodyHere

(2,810 posts)
15. Thank you for posting this
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:45 PM
Feb 2016

And thank you to the jurors who voted to leave my comment alone instead of stifling conversation.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
27. "Any other interpretation is wrong."
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:47 AM
Feb 2016

There is something I don't trust about writers who write sentences like that.

He also has an article stating that football should be abolished.

Seems to be presenting himself as the "hip white guy who knows everything".

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
31. Another article by a "snarky young white man who thinks he knows everything"
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:58 AM
Feb 2016
?w=595

The "clever analogy" that he opens the article with is idiotic.

Do you find it odd that both of these articles "explaining" the concept of Black Lives Matter are written by young white men?
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
33. That's a good, thoughtful article - not wannabe clever white boy snark like those other two
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 08:12 AM
Feb 2016

Very good points raised. I agree with the sentiments expressed. I do think, however, that "all lives matter" isn't necessarily an expression of racism as the snarky white guy asserted that it always was.

For instance, there is this article:

All Lives Matter: Improving the Lives of Young Boys and Men of Color

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/monique-miles/all-lives-matter-improvin_b_6785448.html

That being said, I agree that people ought to be able to embrace the concept of Black Lives Matter without seeing it as somehow being an attack on people who are not black, which it isn't. It is pointing out the obvious discrepancies that exist based on race.

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
6. Results of your Jury
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:02 PM
Feb 2016

Looks like you have to be careful when expressing your opinion, even if it breaks no rule.


On Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:58 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

All Lives Matter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7642864

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

GOP wedge issue

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:00 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Okay. I get it. It's not what BLM is about, but this should be a discussion with the poster to explain why this sentiment can be offensive in context, but not alert worthy IMHO.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Poster being an a**.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid can't be hidden just because it's stupid.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: stupid. someone needs a little education.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Who said it was a GOP wedge issue? The person who alerted did. Doesn't sound like a rule to me. It sounds like an opinion.

RichGirl

(4,119 posts)
19. The problem with saying "All Lives Matter" is...
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:52 PM
Feb 2016

....in it's attempt to be politically correct, it becomes meaningless. Let's face it. Nobody, NOBODY has ever questioned whether white lives matter or not. It doesn't NEED to be said.

Black Lives Matter...makes sense. As would Muslim Lives Matter....etc...

Only those who have felt discriminated against have any need to say WE MATTER.

 

NobodyHere

(2,810 posts)
20. Actually
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:56 PM
Feb 2016

I would argue that "All Lives Matter" gives equality to all races. Discrimination against a black or asian is the same as discrimination against a white person. I know it doesn't happen equal numbers but it is equally offensive.

RichGirl

(4,119 posts)
38. In my opinion....
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 10:11 AM
Feb 2016

It's pretty dumb to have to say that ANY lives matter. OF COURSE all lives matter...even puppy dogs and kittens.

I don't know where you live...but I live in a state that has a racism problem. So to cancel out BLACK LIVES MATTER... and replace it with the generic ALL LIVES MATTER is just another way to put blacks in their place.

The guys who spend a beautiful Sunday marching around with automatic weapons and confederate flags....these guys...and there are many...need it in their face that BLACK LIVES MATTER! They need a plane passing over with a banner. They need someone to spray paint it on their broken down old pick up trucks!

Yes...all lives matter, but for just a short time can't we focus on the people who are made to feel like their lives don't matter.

lapfog_1

(29,199 posts)
36. co-opting the phrase "Black Lives Matter"
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 09:29 AM
Feb 2016

is an attempt to refute the claim and negate those that use it.

Of course all lives matter... that does not need to be said or even debated.

What BLM is about is the overwhelming statistics about the way young black people are treated in this society and what they face everyday just living in this country (racial profiling and constant harassment by law enforcement).

If you want a slogan that states something about your feelings of racial equality and a call for no discrimination, please feel free to invent one... just don't use one that sounds like BLM or shout it at someone with BLM sign or T-shirt.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
28. There are some white lives that don't seem to matter to folks
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:48 AM
Feb 2016

Particular whites who are living in poverty. Whites who are homeless. Etc.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
29. No it's not
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:50 AM
Feb 2016

It's more like pointing out that whites are often victims of police abuse. That whites in poverty are often also ignored and/or mistreated.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
34. Saying it is Denying the Victim.
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 08:13 AM
Feb 2016
It's kind of an offshoot of negationism.

Many, including Democratic presidential candidate Martin O'Malley, have countered with "All lives matter." The problem is neatly illustrated by a Reddit user:

”Imagine that you're sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don't get any.

So you say "I should get my fair share." And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, "everyone should get their fair share." Now, that's a wonderful sentiment -- indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad's smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn't solve the problem that you still haven't gotten any!

The problem is that the statement "I should get my fair share" had an implicit "too" at the end: "I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else." But your dad's response treated your statement as though you meant "only I should get my fair share", which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that "everyone should get their fair share," while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.[...]

[...]Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase "black lives matter" also has an implicit "too" at the end: it's saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying "all lives matter" is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It's a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means "only black lives matter," when that is obviously not the case. And so saying "all lives matter" as a direct response to "black lives matter" is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem.

—GeekAesthete[10]

On Real Time with Bill Maher, Bill Maher expressed support of the "Black Lives Matter" phrase, arguing that "All Lives Matter" "implies that all lives are equally at risk, and they're not"

rock

(13,218 posts)
37. Agreed, but I'm a little slow
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 10:07 AM
Feb 2016

So for those that disagree with you, I need to know: what lives do not matter?

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
7. No. The wedge issue is "Blue Lives Matter"
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:08 PM
Feb 2016

Which is translated to mean "if you stand with BLM, you are scum that stands against our heroic police."

Response to applegrove (Original post)

applegrove

(118,642 posts)
9. Would you agree that the confederate flag as celebrated in the last 20 years was about keeping
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:19 PM
Feb 2016

people it targeted down? In the same way saying All Lives Matter takes away from Black Lives Matter, which is about equality under the law, and is meant as a bait in the same way. IMHO.

Response to applegrove (Reply #9)

applegrove

(118,642 posts)
11. My worry is the All Lives Matter meme is spreading. Facebook CEO had to send a memo
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:31 PM
Feb 2016

to his staff this week telling them not to use it on internal boards or something. I guess my feeling is we have to fight it now. We don't agree. Vive la difference!

applegrove

(118,642 posts)
13. Maybe asking them about the death penalty would be a good comeback to 'but every life is important'.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:36 PM
Feb 2016

You are correct that whenever language or ideas that imply compassion or empathy come out of the GOP's mouths they should immediately be suspect.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
14. Agreed. You can't have all lives mattering until black lives matter just as much.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:43 PM
Feb 2016

You can't reach the goal of the former without reaching the latter (do they never teach set theory in school any more? ).

I will say, however, that in an appropriate context, I don't mind pointing out that red lives matter, too. Not ever as some sort of "comeback" to BLM, but when it's relevant. Native Americans are also killed by police at a horrifying rate...they're another group whose lives have been historically devalued. Bit of a hot button issue for me...

applegrove

(118,642 posts)
16. Yes. There is a movement in Canada called "Idle No More' of indigenous people. We
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:48 PM
Feb 2016

Last edited Fri Feb 26, 2016, 09:03 PM - Edit history (1)

finally have a federal government that seems to want to make the real changes that were put off for 10 years under Harper. Peoples coming into their own where rights are concerned. Important stuff and a threat to the right in both Canada and the USA. There is about to be a public inquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women. The Liberals are on the ball. Thank god.

 

NobodyHere

(2,810 posts)
22. I disagree
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 09:27 PM
Feb 2016

All Lives Matter can be interpreted as meaning that all lives are equal. Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
26. The Problem with Saying ‘All Lives Matter’
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 07:47 AM
Feb 2016

Imagine that you wake up late one night to the sound of your home being burglarized. Through the crack in your bedroom door, you see several figures hauling out your television, computers and nice china to their getaway car parked outside.

Thinking quickly, you dial 911 on your iPhone.

“911, what’s your emergency?”

“Help!” you whisper. “My home is being robbed!”

“Stay where you are, Miss,” the other voice assures you. “We’ll look into it.”

“Thank you,” you whisper. “My address is—”

“Woah, Ma’am,” the voice on the other end says. “Why are you bringing addresses into this?”


Read more at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/problem-saying-all-lives-matter#XdkDoMuxQQO95E2G.99

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
35. That has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 08:36 AM
Feb 2016

I know this young white dude thinks he is being clever, but that analogy is completely idiotic.

MH1

(17,600 posts)
39. A better analogy
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 10:29 AM
Feb 2016

You are at a restaurant with a group of friends. Everyone has been served their food except you. After a reasonable amount of time, you look around and say something like, "hmm, where's my food? I need food". Your friends pipe up and say "we ALL need food."

Doesn't make much sense, does it? It wouldn't happen that way.

The reason this is analogous to the slogan "Black Lives Matter" is this: whites already receive a level of justice in this country, that is generally denied to blacks, generally along racial lines. Of course, if you don't believe that statement, you don't get the analogy, and probably have trouble with why "All lives matter" is problematic as a retort to "Black lives matter".

When someone retorts to "Black lives matter" with "All lives matter", they are indicating a failure to grasp the plight of African Americans in the justice system in this country. Whether it is ignorance or racism, in an individual case, is often debatable, IMO. However I have no doubt that there is a large swath of of racism in this country, and that many of the retorts do rise from racism. On the other hand, there is also vast ignorance and insensitivity to the problem, which to me doesn't rise to racism - these folks can be enlightened. So I don't think saying "All lives matter" is necessarily racist, but the promotion of that as a tactic, is racist.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
40. That's a little better
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 10:43 AM
Feb 2016

Clearly justice is meted out differently based on race in this country and black people (along with many other people of color) have to deal with issues that white people generally don't face. The frustration of living in a society where it feels like black lives do not matter understandably would lead to a movement to spread the idea that black lives do matter.

That being said, the 911 phone call analogy is stupid and not at all illustrative.

I do think that there are some people who take "BLM" to mean that non-black lives don't matter and have the knee-jerk "all lives matter" response and thus totally miss the point. However, I think there are other people (of all races) who promote the idea that all lives matter to try to emphasize the shared humanity of all people in a positive way (incorporating the same message as many in the BLM movement).

I took issue with this particular article because, first of all, I think it's annoying for a young white guy to explain what the BLM movement is about in a fairly snarky and patronizing way, and also, as I mentioned, because I think the analogy is quite poor, to put it mildly.

Your analogy is definitely better.

MH1

(17,600 posts)
41. Thanks, by the way I should mention, I saw that somewhere on the Internet
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 11:39 AM
Feb 2016

I didn't come up with myself, just saw it and thought it worked well.

There are several of these analogies floating around, and I just latched on to that one as probably the best and easiest for most people to understand.

I don't think the 911 call analogy that I have heard is that stupid though. (You call 911 to tell them your house is on fire so they'll send the fire dept, and they respond with "all houses matter&quot . The point is, the situation described in the analogy is ridiculous. It is ridiculous because it makes no sense, that's not how it would happen - just like the restaurant analogy. You call 911 because you have a problem; it is not appropriate (and wouldn't happen) to get a response that everyone else has problems, too. No, they dispatch the organization that should be able to help with your problem. When people are saying "black lives matter" it is a call of distress - to respond with "all lives matter" just ignores the situation of distress.

I didn't go to the article you were referring to, but I would agree that the analogy posted from the article is a little harder to follow, and therefore "stupid" in the sense that it doesn't effectively get the point across. I had to re-read it and scratch my head to figure it out, and I already know what the plot is supposed to be. So, a swing and a miss, I'd say. And yeah, a young white guy has no room to be snarky and patronizing about an issue like this.

And I definitely agree we shouldn't be broad-brushing all uses of "all lives matter" as racism. Some is racism, some is ignorance, some is (as you point out) trying to promote a more noble notion. I would however, say that for the more noble, context matters, and when it isn't misinterpreted as racism or ignorance, it might accurately be perceived as naive. But then, most idealism is at least a little naive, and there is still a place for it. Sometimes we have to dream of things how they aren't, so we know what we are trying to achieve.

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