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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat you do think of this Kurt Vonnegut Quote
I was in another forum and I found this quote
What do you think of this quote and how it applies to us?
longship
(40,416 posts)It was just sitting on my book shelf while I was browsing through the volumes there, as I am want to do.
It said: "Read me. Read me! READ ME!!!!"
And I did.
And I learned about Bokonon all over again, as he would want. Or not. How can one be sure? I always keep my socks off just in case.
You should, too. Just in case.
BTW, are you a Hoosier?
tblue37
(65,340 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Been busy with science reading, mostly physics and math, but Cat's Cradle is one of those iconic reads. It is short enough to read in a day, and it has a shattering end. (Even shorter is Slaughterhouse Five.)
It begged me to read it again when I took my hot cuppa to the book shelf this morning. I did not put it down until I had gobbled it all up, so to speak.
Keep reading Kurt Vonnegut. Just watch out for chronosynclastic infundibula.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)The best American author of the last century.
Slaughterhouse 5
Welcome to the Monkey House.
God Bless You Mrs. Rosewater.
He understood us very well.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)be read in a certain order?
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)It's a good starting place.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)for me? Kept too busy looking for work to care about solutions. And then there is always the alternative - America's safety net, jail.
I used to stop in front of his door step on E 78 but never saw him come or go.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Children, and Social Security, not "jail".
It's bad, but not that bad.
Yuugal
(2,281 posts)Was a program killed by the Clintons 20 or so yrs ago. It is "not that bad" if you already "have yours". Bye now.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)For the purpose of bs melodrama such as yours, is just a tad much for those of us who have, in fact, not only
been poor enough to collect welfare, but have even spent some time in jail....Now you can say 'Bye'.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)We're taught that our value is in dollars. I'm working poor, and would probably feel like I failed at life or something too...except that during the Bush Admin I studied economics as a hobby.
My entire perspective changed. I saw how our system was built and how it is maintained, and there is no equal chance for everyone built in or even desired by most people.
I find myself poor in money but rich in sources of information. I'd rather be well informed than comfortably exploiting someone else.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)super-predator rabble rousing against poor blacks.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)I remember that awful 80s show, "Lifestyles of the rich and famous." It only got worse since then.
Akamai
(1,779 posts)There is a line from Adam Smith, economist, who said, People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.
Greed is something that must be controlled by the government. There is no other that can control it.
Go Bernie!
bvf
(6,604 posts)Hard truths, no sugar-coating, although he was capable of that, too.
Hoppy
(3,595 posts)PBS did a series which dramatized some of his work.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)I was fortunate growing up in that both of my parents had decent jobs. They both worked for the same local hospital, my Father a PR man and my Mother a registered nurse. Decent - but throughout my early childhood we were probably average (or slightly upper) working class - and as I grew older my parents became more comfortably average working middle class. I learned a great deal from them, about values and principles, about the sort of person I wanted to be - about what our economy looked like for regular people... about the stress of this current economy, about, too, how so many people are forced into working at jobs they hate - to pretend to any who ask that they love them. Fake it till you make it, I guess, is the idea.
My Father worked 80-100 hours a week, nearly every week, for a number of years. My Mother was a nurse who worked nights and slept during the day, so a lot of the time my sisters and I were raised by baby sitters - or, as we got a bit older, by each other. On those race occasions (much rarer, back then) that my parents had time together, they were often frustrated from their long days and needed to vent, or relax... and children can make such things difficult. Particularly children like I was, an introverted boy who hated school thanks to constant bullying - they had to struggle every day to get me to go. I frequently ran away from home, or got into trouble for one thing or another. On one particular occasion I even got to ride to school in a police cruiser - I think I was ten.
I saw how hard it was for them. How my Father would be pulling out his hair over debts, over this issue or that issue of fund raising for the hospital, or his community endeavors. My Mother... a good nurse, loves her patients... but not so much the politics, I think she suffered from depression and anxiety.
What I learned mostly was that your average working/middle class life can be extraordinarily shitty. Most of your time spent working for people who barely appreciate you, struggling to juggle debts, child-care, house maintenance, education - and so many other things all while trying to have time to enjoy life.
I was an ignorant child (well, to be fair, I WAS a child) and I remember thinking to myself that I would never be like them. I wasn't going to work for assholes who didn't appreciate me, to sacrifice my life so I could work all day to have an hour or two at home at night... maybe. In my teens I looked into every get rich quick scheme I could think of, kept figuring... there had to be some easy way to get rich so I wouldn't have to live like my parents had. Of course it never ended up working out as I intended. Eventually I was convinced I needed at least a GED... and went to a local Jobcorps program. That really shook up my comfortable, sheltered little world... lots and lots of diversity. Meeting so many who had never had much of anything, or who had been gangsters, or who's parents had beat them bloody, or who never had much hope for anything. It began, I suppose, my maturation (such as it was - and is) into adult life.
Then, well, I became a Father. A sort of Father (my girlfriend had a young daughter, and for a long time I was a stay at home caretaker...) at seventeen - and a biological one at eighteen. I had a GED and a give em hell attitude - and not much else. Lousy jobs for terrible pay, my own history of mental illness (Post traumatic stress) and a laundry list of issues. I learned that, while middle class or working class life is hard, damned hard... it's not nearly as shitty as being working poor, or just plain poor.
I learned the meaning of struggle, of poverty. I learned what it was like to go hungry, no matter how hard you worked, how many dishes you washes, floors you swept, phone calls you made. I learned what it was like to try to keep up with laundry, house keeping chores, cooking, so many things that I had always taken for granted as a child. I guess we all have (or a lot of us at least have) that "light bulb" moment, eventually... where we say.. "Shit, I was a little creep!"
For the most part, my little fledgling family survived - just barely - because we had some help from family. When that help was at one point cut off...
I remember applying for jobs and being looked at with contempt and condescension. Simple things I could not do, like read a tape measurer... simple and glaring holes in my education and even in my personality that made me unsuited for many different types of work. I ultimately resigned myself, for years, to working in the service industry... because I was not good enough, smart enough, to do anything else.
There were days when I stole milk, even bread (how I pulled that off I'm still not entirely certain - bread is tough to hide) from a local grocery store when we were living in South Dakota. There we nights when I couldn't do anything but lay in bed feeling miserable - a failure in every important way. I could not provide the life my family deserved... that my children deserved. No matter how hard I tried, there were so very many barriers, my personal illness and lack of education being the greatest.
We applied for - and received medicaid and food stamps for a time - I was often in between jobs or working at low paying/minimum wage job, or staying home with the children because I would earn less - on a monthly basis, than childcare required. The shame became so great, so deep, so overwhelming, that it turned to self hatred, to a deep and abiding self hatred that lasted for many years. I became self destructive... irritable, twitchy, apathetic. I began to despise people - and life, in general, but not nearly so much as I despised myself.
I would think, some times, spitefully, that... "when my ship came in", I'd show them all, for mocking me, underestimating me, laughing at me. I'd show my parents, I'd show the bullies, I'd show this world that I was someone to be reckoned with, that I wasn't useless and pathetic, that I wasn't who... really, I believed I was.
The severe mental breakdown I suffered when my girlfriend and I broke up and I lost the children... it lasted for years. I never forgave myself for failing as a Father, as a fiance, as a man, even as a son to my parents. It was years in therapy, medication and other things before I was ever able to grow beyond that person. To consider... everything... more deeply, more philosophically. To learn about things like politics, economics, psychology and sociology.
I have spent the few years since my semi-recovery as a member of the working poor, uninsured, underpaid, barely educated. Yet... for all of that, I discovered faith in humanity. Through the struggles of those like me, who had suffered hardships, whether illness or poverty, who had suffered so much more. Compassion and wisdom came from some of the unlikeliest of places and people who I had once thought had nothing in common with me.
I found my heroes among the working class and the working poor. People who inspire me to greater compassion, empathy... humility and humanity every day. People who inspire me to be kind and brave, even when life is harsh and often cruel. People who demonstrate, day after day, just what it means to be a working class hero. It's something that no words can adequately describe, something that, for me, means so much more than a matter of numbers.
From my experience... painful and otherwise... I think that the sum of one's financial value has no indication as to the sum of one's value as a human being. I believe that society gives money the ultimate credit to determine the worth of the individual based on wealth - and I find that rotten to the core, absolutely despicable. I am poor, I know the poor, I work with the poor, I'm not just some statistic, or some example to be held up as an indication of why we should all get an education (though I have been that, too).
There is a... I don't know what to call it... an experience in humanity, in humility, in Eastern Nations that I have heard of. That a wealthy person will gave away all they own later in life, and become a beggar to live on the streets. Those people are pretty damned awesome, heroes in the highest way it is possible to be, deeply noble in spirit and in everything good.
Making money is tough, beyond tough for most of us - yet... being poor is harder. Living with the wages of the poor, with the feelings and the life issues that come as a result of deep poverty... thrust us into the fire, into the Soul forge, if you will... and shake us - and test us, down to our very core. If you want to know who someone is, take away all of their financial value, assets and so on... and once the kicking and screaming is over - you will see someone much closer to the truth.
Finally, to answer your question after my long rant... I believe that quote applies to us in that it presents a challenge. To NOT hate ourselves based on our financial value - to NOT hate others for the same reason. To hold neither ignorance nor contempt for others in our hearts, but to cling to empathy, to our shared compassion and humanity in the knowledge that we are all in this together. To find faith, not in external things like cash, big houses, fancy cars... but in that which has the most value... in each other.
Just my thoughts. Pardon the long-winded manner of my post. I've never been good at giving simple or short answers to questions.
cer7711
(502 posts)Your words moved me deeply. Thank you for sharing the pain, angst and sobering truths of your story.
I also found courage, hard-earned wisdom and a wry, self-deprecating sense of humor in your words.
I'm right up against it myself today (loss of job, hounded by creditors and the IRS), riding the knife-edge of poverty into . . . ?
Like you, I endure. I wish all of us working-class blokes better days ahead, eh?
Thanks again for sharing. If you can, please check out George Orwell's "Down & Out In Paris & London" and "Keep the Aspidistra Flying". These books will speak to you, trust me.
For those of you on this board who are comfortably middle and upper-class, I urge you to read Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel & Dimed: On (not) Getting By In America" for a glimpse into the hell the modern-day working class of America faces in simply trying to survive. You don't have a f#cking clue--unless you're one of us.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)We are in this together - if my experiences have taught me anything - it is at least that. There but for the grace of...
To endure is okay, some times, if we can manage it. It is not though, what our lives should be, I feel... that we, that all human beings, were meant to do so much more. What is going on in the world today, with so much of the negativity, the stress, the ignorance, the hatred... it cannot last. I believe our world is on it's way towards becoming a more enlightened, kinder place. That our people (and by this, I mean the human people) are moving slowly but surely in the direction of greater peace, greater love, greater compassion.
One day, I firmly believe, we will see these things we have wistfully dreamed of. Everyone will have health insurance... - everyone will have access to education - people will not have to starve to death for the crime of being poor, perhaps, in the fullness of time, being poor will no longer be looked at as a character flaw or personal weakness. I wish I could live long enough to see that world I dream of.
What we are seeing now, is the beginning of the end for the 1% and powerful elites that have ruled humanity in secret for so damned long. We are seeing the beginning of an awakening for the masses. I heard it in American Cities, in German Cities, in Britain and France, I watched it with the Arab Spring, I see it in the enlightened policies of several Scandinavian Countries. I see it every time we avert a war or disaster, every time someone chooses diplomacy over war, compassion over greed.
I don't think it will be perfect, nothing ever is. We will never have an absolute utopia... but the world of tomorrow, I think will be very, very different from the world of today. Hang in there, I am with you.
We will continue to endure - but one day, may it be one day soon, I believe we will have that chance to really live. That's what I'm waiting for. I'm keepin' the faith, no matter how hard it is.
flying rabbit
(4,632 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)post. I'm hardly ever at a loss for words, but I am now.
cer7711
(502 posts). . . if you'll pardon the expression.
So it goes . . .
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)They also believe in the Rapture.
See the similarity?
Solly Mack
(90,764 posts)But then no amount of time less than forever would have been enough.
ProfessorPlum
(11,256 posts)there is talk of what we "can" and "cannot" do for ourselves.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)You will never read a more succinct, damning or accurate summary of economic reality in the US. Emphasis is original, while attributions in [font color="red"]red[/font] are added by me for clarity.
"And just what do you think that would do to incentive?" [font color="red"]asked his father, the Senator.[/font]
"You mean fright about not getting enough to eat, about not being able to pay the doctor, about not being able to give your family nice clothes, a safe, cheerful, comfortable place to live, a decent education, and a few good times? You mean shame about not knowing where the Money River is?"
"The what?"
"The Money River, where the wealth of the nation flows. We were born on the banks of it--and so were most of the mediocre people we grew up with, went to private schools with, sailed and played tennis with. We can slurp from that mighty river to our hearts' content. And we even take slurping lessons, so we can slurp more efficiently."
"Slurping lessons?"
"From lawyers! From tax consultants! From customers' men! We're born close enough to the river to drown ourselves and the next ten generations in wealth, simply using dippers and buckets. But we still hire the experts to teach us the use of aqueducts, dams, reservoirs, siphons, bucket brigades, and the Archimedes' screw. And our teachers in turn become rich, and their children become buyers of lessons in slurping."
"I wasn't aware that I slurped."
Eliot was fleetingly heartless, for he was thinking angrily in the abstract. "Born slurpers never are. And they can't imagine what the poor people are talking about when they say they hear somebody slurping. They don't even know what it means when somebody mentions the Money River. When one of us claims that there is no such thing as the Money River I think to myself, "My gosh, but that's a dishonest and tasteless thing to say."
"Sure--provided somebody tells him when he's young enough that there is a Money River, that there's nothing fair about it, that he had damn well forget about hard work and the merit system and honesty and all that crap, and get to where the river is. 'Go where the rich and the powerful are,' I'd tell him, 'and learn their ways. They can be flattered and they can be scared. Please them enormously or scare them enormously, and one moonless night they will put their fingers to their lips, warning you not to make a sound. And they will lead you through the dark ot the widest, deepest river of wealth ever known to man. You'll be shown your place on the riverbank, and handed a bucket all your own. Slurp as much as you want, but try to keep the racket of your slurping down. A poor man might hear.'"
From God bless you, Mr. Rosewater, copyright 1965
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)reflection
(6,286 posts)but mine is a little shorter.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)...apropos to this country.
TBF
(32,056 posts)but moreover to hate each other while glorifying the rich and famous.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)...the jig is up; that even the money river is a myth. So we grasp the newest myth: Celebrity. If you can't get the money, get the celebrity. And most any kind will do.
I like this quote:
"The Utopian dreaming I do now has to do with encouraging cheerfulness and bravery for everyone by the formation of good gangs."
Lest we be doomed to cowardice.
seanjoycek476
(54 posts)America is in need of revolutionary change for things to get better.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)sendero
(28,552 posts)..... pretty much everything Vonnegut wrote, ever.