Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

discocrisco01

(1,666 posts)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:24 PM Mar 2016

What you do think of this Kurt Vonnegut Quote

I was in another forum and I found this quote

""America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register. Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves."


What do you think of this quote and how it applies to us?
36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What you do think of this Kurt Vonnegut Quote (Original Post) discocrisco01 Mar 2016 OP
I read "Cat's Cradle" today for the umpteenth time. longship Mar 2016 #1
Love "CC," but have you read "Mother Night"? "CC" and "MN" are my 2 KV favorites. nt tblue37 Mar 2016 #3
Will put it on my list. longship Mar 2016 #5
My thoughts of Kurt Vonnegut...... Half-Century Man Mar 2016 #2
Should his books awoke_in_2003 Mar 2016 #21
No. Monkey House is a collection of short stories. Half-Century Man Mar 2016 #23
Thanks for the suggestion. nt awoke_in_2003 Mar 2016 #24
It's a lot of work to carry out a revolution. American poor have been trained to ask, what's in it leveymg Mar 2016 #4
America's safety net is Unemployment Insurance, Public Assistance, Medicaid, Aid to Dependent whathehell Mar 2016 #18
Aid to families with dependent children. Yuugal Mar 2016 #31
My bad, but the dishonesty of ignoring existent programs whathehell Mar 2016 #34
I personally think it's spot on Hydra Mar 2016 #6
It explains the unrelentless cruelty our ruling class has against the poor, aka Hillary's whereisjustice Mar 2016 #7
I'm pretty damn tired of that thing about admiring the rich. rusty quoin Mar 2016 #8
Yes. But this is also a condition brought about by the greedy rich. Akamai Mar 2016 #9
Vonnegut will be forever missed. bvf Mar 2016 #10
"Welcome To The Monkey House" was my favorite. Hoppy Mar 2016 #11
You ask a difficult question. davidthegnome Mar 2016 #12
Davidthegnome, I salute you! cer7711 Mar 2016 #13
Right back at you. davidthegnome Mar 2016 #16
Wish I could rec this post. flying rabbit Mar 2016 #35
I've been here for almost 15 years. Very rarely have I been moved so much by 1 Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2016 #36
I Think He's Right On The Money . . . cer7711 Mar 2016 #14
The poor here think they can be rich any minute now..... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2016 #15
I think Vonnegut was a very smart man who died too soon. Solly Mack Mar 2016 #17
It's one of my favorite quotes, and one I always think about especially when ProfessorPlum Mar 2016 #19
Here's a magnificent excerpt, now five decades old. Orrex Mar 2016 #20
With all this talk about robots replacing workers, "Player Piano" is the Vonnegut of the moment KamaAina Mar 2016 #22
I like it better than the KV line in my sig reflection Mar 2016 #25
I live in Texas. It is prescient today. Kip Humphrey Mar 2016 #26
I think it is very deathrind Mar 2016 #27
The poor are not only urged to hate themselves - TBF Mar 2016 #28
That's the sum. The fury now comes from Americans just beginning to realize... Eleanors38 Mar 2016 #29
I'd say he is spot on seanjoycek476 Mar 2016 #30
Fucking media owned by the rich have caused this. We are a nation of PTSD sufferers. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #32
I like... sendero Mar 2016 #33

longship

(40,416 posts)
1. I read "Cat's Cradle" today for the umpteenth time.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:34 PM
Mar 2016

It was just sitting on my book shelf while I was browsing through the volumes there, as I am want to do.

It said: "Read me. Read me! READ ME!!!!"

And I did.

And I learned about Bokonon all over again, as he would want. Or not. How can one be sure? I always keep my socks off just in case.

You should, too. Just in case.



BTW, are you a Hoosier?

longship

(40,416 posts)
5. Will put it on my list.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:49 PM
Mar 2016

Been busy with science reading, mostly physics and math, but Cat's Cradle is one of those iconic reads. It is short enough to read in a day, and it has a shattering end. (Even shorter is Slaughterhouse Five.)

It begged me to read it again when I took my hot cuppa to the book shelf this morning. I did not put it down until I had gobbled it all up, so to speak.

Keep reading Kurt Vonnegut. Just watch out for chronosynclastic infundibula.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
2. My thoughts of Kurt Vonnegut......
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:35 PM
Mar 2016

The best American author of the last century.
Slaughterhouse 5
Welcome to the Monkey House.
God Bless You Mrs. Rosewater.

He understood us very well.





leveymg

(36,418 posts)
4. It's a lot of work to carry out a revolution. American poor have been trained to ask, what's in it
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:38 PM
Mar 2016

for me? Kept too busy looking for work to care about solutions. And then there is always the alternative - America's safety net, jail.

I used to stop in front of his door step on E 78 but never saw him come or go.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
18. America's safety net is Unemployment Insurance, Public Assistance, Medicaid, Aid to Dependent
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 03:09 AM
Mar 2016

Children, and Social Security, not "jail".

It's bad, but not that bad.

 

Yuugal

(2,281 posts)
31. Aid to families with dependent children.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 07:17 PM
Mar 2016

Was a program killed by the Clintons 20 or so yrs ago. It is "not that bad" if you already "have yours". Bye now.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
34. My bad, but the dishonesty of ignoring existent programs
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:24 PM
Mar 2016

For the purpose of bs melodrama such as yours, is just a tad much for those of us who have, in fact, not only

been poor enough to collect welfare, but have even spent some time in jail....Now you can say 'Bye'.













Hydra

(14,459 posts)
6. I personally think it's spot on
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:51 PM
Mar 2016

We're taught that our value is in dollars. I'm working poor, and would probably feel like I failed at life or something too...except that during the Bush Admin I studied economics as a hobby.

My entire perspective changed. I saw how our system was built and how it is maintained, and there is no equal chance for everyone built in or even desired by most people.

I find myself poor in money but rich in sources of information. I'd rather be well informed than comfortably exploiting someone else.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
7. It explains the unrelentless cruelty our ruling class has against the poor, aka Hillary's
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:13 PM
Mar 2016

super-predator rabble rousing against poor blacks.

 

rusty quoin

(6,133 posts)
8. I'm pretty damn tired of that thing about admiring the rich.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:15 PM
Mar 2016

I remember that awful 80s show, "Lifestyles of the rich and famous." It only got worse since then.

 

Akamai

(1,779 posts)
9. Yes. But this is also a condition brought about by the greedy rich.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:27 PM
Mar 2016

There is a line from Adam Smith, economist, who said, “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

Greed is something that must be controlled by the government. There is no other that can control it.

Go Bernie!

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
10. Vonnegut will be forever missed.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:40 PM
Mar 2016

Hard truths, no sugar-coating, although he was capable of that, too.

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
12. You ask a difficult question.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:55 PM
Mar 2016

I was fortunate growing up in that both of my parents had decent jobs. They both worked for the same local hospital, my Father a PR man and my Mother a registered nurse. Decent - but throughout my early childhood we were probably average (or slightly upper) working class - and as I grew older my parents became more comfortably average working middle class. I learned a great deal from them, about values and principles, about the sort of person I wanted to be - about what our economy looked like for regular people... about the stress of this current economy, about, too, how so many people are forced into working at jobs they hate - to pretend to any who ask that they love them. Fake it till you make it, I guess, is the idea.

My Father worked 80-100 hours a week, nearly every week, for a number of years. My Mother was a nurse who worked nights and slept during the day, so a lot of the time my sisters and I were raised by baby sitters - or, as we got a bit older, by each other. On those race occasions (much rarer, back then) that my parents had time together, they were often frustrated from their long days and needed to vent, or relax... and children can make such things difficult. Particularly children like I was, an introverted boy who hated school thanks to constant bullying - they had to struggle every day to get me to go. I frequently ran away from home, or got into trouble for one thing or another. On one particular occasion I even got to ride to school in a police cruiser - I think I was ten.

I saw how hard it was for them. How my Father would be pulling out his hair over debts, over this issue or that issue of fund raising for the hospital, or his community endeavors. My Mother... a good nurse, loves her patients... but not so much the politics, I think she suffered from depression and anxiety.

What I learned mostly was that your average working/middle class life can be extraordinarily shitty. Most of your time spent working for people who barely appreciate you, struggling to juggle debts, child-care, house maintenance, education - and so many other things all while trying to have time to enjoy life.

I was an ignorant child (well, to be fair, I WAS a child) and I remember thinking to myself that I would never be like them. I wasn't going to work for assholes who didn't appreciate me, to sacrifice my life so I could work all day to have an hour or two at home at night... maybe. In my teens I looked into every get rich quick scheme I could think of, kept figuring... there had to be some easy way to get rich so I wouldn't have to live like my parents had. Of course it never ended up working out as I intended. Eventually I was convinced I needed at least a GED... and went to a local Jobcorps program. That really shook up my comfortable, sheltered little world... lots and lots of diversity. Meeting so many who had never had much of anything, or who had been gangsters, or who's parents had beat them bloody, or who never had much hope for anything. It began, I suppose, my maturation (such as it was - and is) into adult life.

Then, well, I became a Father. A sort of Father (my girlfriend had a young daughter, and for a long time I was a stay at home caretaker...) at seventeen - and a biological one at eighteen. I had a GED and a give em hell attitude - and not much else. Lousy jobs for terrible pay, my own history of mental illness (Post traumatic stress) and a laundry list of issues. I learned that, while middle class or working class life is hard, damned hard... it's not nearly as shitty as being working poor, or just plain poor.

I learned the meaning of struggle, of poverty. I learned what it was like to go hungry, no matter how hard you worked, how many dishes you washes, floors you swept, phone calls you made. I learned what it was like to try to keep up with laundry, house keeping chores, cooking, so many things that I had always taken for granted as a child. I guess we all have (or a lot of us at least have) that "light bulb" moment, eventually... where we say.. "Shit, I was a little creep!"

For the most part, my little fledgling family survived - just barely - because we had some help from family. When that help was at one point cut off...

I remember applying for jobs and being looked at with contempt and condescension. Simple things I could not do, like read a tape measurer... simple and glaring holes in my education and even in my personality that made me unsuited for many different types of work. I ultimately resigned myself, for years, to working in the service industry... because I was not good enough, smart enough, to do anything else.

There were days when I stole milk, even bread (how I pulled that off I'm still not entirely certain - bread is tough to hide) from a local grocery store when we were living in South Dakota. There we nights when I couldn't do anything but lay in bed feeling miserable - a failure in every important way. I could not provide the life my family deserved... that my children deserved. No matter how hard I tried, there were so very many barriers, my personal illness and lack of education being the greatest.

We applied for - and received medicaid and food stamps for a time - I was often in between jobs or working at low paying/minimum wage job, or staying home with the children because I would earn less - on a monthly basis, than childcare required. The shame became so great, so deep, so overwhelming, that it turned to self hatred, to a deep and abiding self hatred that lasted for many years. I became self destructive... irritable, twitchy, apathetic. I began to despise people - and life, in general, but not nearly so much as I despised myself.

I would think, some times, spitefully, that... "when my ship came in", I'd show them all, for mocking me, underestimating me, laughing at me. I'd show my parents, I'd show the bullies, I'd show this world that I was someone to be reckoned with, that I wasn't useless and pathetic, that I wasn't who... really, I believed I was.

The severe mental breakdown I suffered when my girlfriend and I broke up and I lost the children... it lasted for years. I never forgave myself for failing as a Father, as a fiance, as a man, even as a son to my parents. It was years in therapy, medication and other things before I was ever able to grow beyond that person. To consider... everything... more deeply, more philosophically. To learn about things like politics, economics, psychology and sociology.

I have spent the few years since my semi-recovery as a member of the working poor, uninsured, underpaid, barely educated. Yet... for all of that, I discovered faith in humanity. Through the struggles of those like me, who had suffered hardships, whether illness or poverty, who had suffered so much more. Compassion and wisdom came from some of the unlikeliest of places and people who I had once thought had nothing in common with me.

I found my heroes among the working class and the working poor. People who inspire me to greater compassion, empathy... humility and humanity every day. People who inspire me to be kind and brave, even when life is harsh and often cruel. People who demonstrate, day after day, just what it means to be a working class hero. It's something that no words can adequately describe, something that, for me, means so much more than a matter of numbers.

From my experience... painful and otherwise... I think that the sum of one's financial value has no indication as to the sum of one's value as a human being. I believe that society gives money the ultimate credit to determine the worth of the individual based on wealth - and I find that rotten to the core, absolutely despicable. I am poor, I know the poor, I work with the poor, I'm not just some statistic, or some example to be held up as an indication of why we should all get an education (though I have been that, too).

There is a... I don't know what to call it... an experience in humanity, in humility, in Eastern Nations that I have heard of. That a wealthy person will gave away all they own later in life, and become a beggar to live on the streets. Those people are pretty damned awesome, heroes in the highest way it is possible to be, deeply noble in spirit and in everything good.

Making money is tough, beyond tough for most of us - yet... being poor is harder. Living with the wages of the poor, with the feelings and the life issues that come as a result of deep poverty... thrust us into the fire, into the Soul forge, if you will... and shake us - and test us, down to our very core. If you want to know who someone is, take away all of their financial value, assets and so on... and once the kicking and screaming is over - you will see someone much closer to the truth.


Finally, to answer your question after my long rant... I believe that quote applies to us in that it presents a challenge. To NOT hate ourselves based on our financial value - to NOT hate others for the same reason. To hold neither ignorance nor contempt for others in our hearts, but to cling to empathy, to our shared compassion and humanity in the knowledge that we are all in this together. To find faith, not in external things like cash, big houses, fancy cars... but in that which has the most value... in each other.

Just my thoughts. Pardon the long-winded manner of my post. I've never been good at giving simple or short answers to questions.

cer7711

(502 posts)
13. Davidthegnome, I salute you!
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:17 AM
Mar 2016

Your words moved me deeply. Thank you for sharing the pain, angst and sobering truths of your story.

I also found courage, hard-earned wisdom and a wry, self-deprecating sense of humor in your words.

I'm right up against it myself today (loss of job, hounded by creditors and the IRS), riding the knife-edge of poverty into . . . ?

Like you, I endure. I wish all of us working-class blokes better days ahead, eh?

Thanks again for sharing. If you can, please check out George Orwell's "Down & Out In Paris & London" and "Keep the Aspidistra Flying". These books will speak to you, trust me.

For those of you on this board who are comfortably middle and upper-class, I urge you to read Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel & Dimed: On (not) Getting By In America" for a glimpse into the hell the modern-day working class of America faces in simply trying to survive. You don't have a f#cking clue--unless you're one of us.

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
16. Right back at you.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:39 AM
Mar 2016

We are in this together - if my experiences have taught me anything - it is at least that. There but for the grace of...

To endure is okay, some times, if we can manage it. It is not though, what our lives should be, I feel... that we, that all human beings, were meant to do so much more. What is going on in the world today, with so much of the negativity, the stress, the ignorance, the hatred... it cannot last. I believe our world is on it's way towards becoming a more enlightened, kinder place. That our people (and by this, I mean the human people) are moving slowly but surely in the direction of greater peace, greater love, greater compassion.

One day, I firmly believe, we will see these things we have wistfully dreamed of. Everyone will have health insurance... - everyone will have access to education - people will not have to starve to death for the crime of being poor, perhaps, in the fullness of time, being poor will no longer be looked at as a character flaw or personal weakness. I wish I could live long enough to see that world I dream of.

What we are seeing now, is the beginning of the end for the 1% and powerful elites that have ruled humanity in secret for so damned long. We are seeing the beginning of an awakening for the masses. I heard it in American Cities, in German Cities, in Britain and France, I watched it with the Arab Spring, I see it in the enlightened policies of several Scandinavian Countries. I see it every time we avert a war or disaster, every time someone chooses diplomacy over war, compassion over greed.

I don't think it will be perfect, nothing ever is. We will never have an absolute utopia... but the world of tomorrow, I think will be very, very different from the world of today. Hang in there, I am with you.

We will continue to endure - but one day, may it be one day soon, I believe we will have that chance to really live. That's what I'm waiting for. I'm keepin' the faith, no matter how hard it is.

Guy Whitey Corngood

(26,500 posts)
36. I've been here for almost 15 years. Very rarely have I been moved so much by 1
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:13 PM
Mar 2016

post. I'm hardly ever at a loss for words, but I am now.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
15. The poor here think they can be rich any minute now.....
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:23 AM
Mar 2016

They also believe in the Rapture.

See the similarity?

Solly Mack

(90,764 posts)
17. I think Vonnegut was a very smart man who died too soon.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:41 AM
Mar 2016

But then no amount of time less than forever would have been enough.

ProfessorPlum

(11,256 posts)
19. It's one of my favorite quotes, and one I always think about especially when
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:20 AM
Mar 2016

there is talk of what we "can" and "cannot" do for ourselves.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
20. Here's a magnificent excerpt, now five decades old.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:49 AM
Mar 2016

You will never read a more succinct, damning or accurate summary of economic reality in the US. Emphasis is original, while attributions in [font color="red"]red[/font] are added by me for clarity.

...I think it's a heartless government that will let one baby be born owning a big piece of the country, the way I was born, and let another baby be born without owning anything. The least a government could do, it seems to me, is to divide things up fairly among the babies. Life is hard enough, without people having to worry themselves sick about money, too. There's plenty for everybody in this country, if we'll only share more." [font color="red"]said Eliot Rosewater.[/font]

"And just what do you think that would do to incentive?" [font color="red"]asked his father, the Senator.[/font]

"You mean fright about not getting enough to eat, about not being able to pay the doctor, about not being able to give your family nice clothes, a safe, cheerful, comfortable place to live, a decent education, and a few good times? You mean shame about not knowing where the Money River is?"

"The what?"

"The Money River, where the wealth of the nation flows. We were born on the banks of it--and so were most of the mediocre people we grew up with, went to private schools with, sailed and played tennis with. We can slurp from that mighty river to our hearts' content. And we even take slurping lessons, so we can slurp more efficiently."

"Slurping lessons?"

"From lawyers! From tax consultants! From customers' men! We're born close enough to the river to drown ourselves and the next ten generations in wealth, simply using dippers and buckets. But we still hire the experts to teach us the use of aqueducts, dams, reservoirs, siphons, bucket brigades, and the Archimedes' screw. And our teachers in turn become rich, and their children become buyers of lessons in slurping."

"I wasn't aware that I slurped."

Eliot was fleetingly heartless, for he was thinking angrily in the abstract. "Born slurpers never are. And they can't imagine what the poor people are talking about when they say they hear somebody slurping. They don't even know what it means when somebody mentions the Money River. When one of us claims that there is no such thing as the Money River I think to myself, "My gosh, but that's a dishonest and tasteless thing to say."

"It's still possible for an American to make a fortune on his own." [font color="red"]said his father.[/font]

"Sure--provided somebody tells him when he's young enough that there is a Money River, that there's nothing fair about it, that he had damn well forget about hard work and the merit system and honesty and all that crap, and get to where the river is. 'Go where the rich and the powerful are,' I'd tell him, 'and learn their ways. They can be flattered and they can be scared. Please them enormously or scare them enormously, and one moonless night they will put their fingers to their lips, warning you not to make a sound. And they will lead you through the dark ot the widest, deepest river of wealth ever known to man. You'll be shown your place on the riverbank, and handed a bucket all your own. Slurp as much as you want, but try to keep the racket of your slurping down. A poor man might hear.'"


From God bless you, Mr. Rosewater, copyright 1965

TBF

(32,056 posts)
28. The poor are not only urged to hate themselves -
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 03:59 PM
Mar 2016

but moreover to hate each other while glorifying the rich and famous.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
29. That's the sum. The fury now comes from Americans just beginning to realize...
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 05:07 PM
Mar 2016

...the jig is up; that even the money river is a myth. So we grasp the newest myth: Celebrity. If you can't get the money, get the celebrity. And most any kind will do.

I like this quote:

"The Utopian dreaming I do now has to do with encouraging cheerfulness and bravery for everyone by the formation of good gangs."

Lest we be doomed to cowardice.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»What you do think of this...