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alp227

(32,020 posts)
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 02:54 PM Mar 2016

The GMO-labelling movement is about faith, not facts.

The fight over genetically modified ingredients is almost over. The industry is backing down. In the next few months, one way or another, packaged foods made with GMOs will be labeled at your supermarket.



The only question that remains is how, exactly, the labels will be regulated and to what extent. The first state law to require GMO disclosures, passed two years ago in Vermont, comes into force this July, and recent efforts to reverse it—in the courts and in Congress—have failed. Now the big players in the food industry are lining up to make concessions to widespread public sentiment and to stave off conflicting and confusing legislation. In January, the Campbell Soup Co. (which also manufactures Swanson broths, Pepperidge Farm cookies, and V8) promised it would label all its U.S. products to indicate which contain ingredients derived from GMOs. Last week, General Mills and Mars Food made a similar announcement, and then so did Kellogg and ConAgra.

For huge companies like these, the real-life facts about GMOs—I mean, the facts about their actual effects, or noneffects, on human health and the environment—are secondary. So what if advocates for labeling come off as anti-science zealots or denialists with no more respect for expert consensus than a bunch of climate skeptics? So what if study after study shows that GM foods are safe? The people want what they want. Transparency sells.

If you’re the kind of person who frets over Americans’ lack of scientific literacy, this accommodationist position may send you into a sputtering rage. A person’s right to know, you might contend, should be in balance with his or her right to avoid unnecessary panic. The mere presence of a label has dire implications. It tells consumers that there is a meaningful distinction to be drawn between GMO and non-GMO ingredients—a “material“ difference in the language of the Food and Drug Administration—and one that should be taken seriously. Yet “genetic modification” describes a process, not an end result, and there’s no evidence that this process leads to special risks. Some bioengineered options on the supermarket shelf could be better for your health than other products. Some could be better for independent farmers and their families. And some could be worse. The scarlet GMO blankets all this variation and replaces it with dread.

full: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2016/03/the_gmo_labeling_movement_is_about_faith_not_facts.html

I don't get it. DU will laugh at creationists and anti-vaccine kooks, both of whom hold pseudoscientific views not supported by most of the literature. Same with Bigfoot hunters or conspiracy theorists. But anti-GMO propaganda gets lots of recs and the greatest section. Even though the supposed case for GMO labeling ("it'll help consumers make an informed decision!&quot is just as full of it as the case for voter ID laws ("they'll prevent fraud!&quot . Why? WHY?

109 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The GMO-labelling movement is about faith, not facts. (Original Post) alp227 Mar 2016 OP
The title you posted seems slightly contradictory to the content of the post. HuckleB Mar 2016 #1
Typo on slate's part. nt alp227 Mar 2016 #3
Got it! HuckleB Mar 2016 #4
Weird that Monsanto chose to send out their Zombies and Hucklesters in a week with a lot of news lagomorph777 Mar 2016 #8
Strange that you have nothing to offer but lame personal attacks. HuckleB Mar 2016 #10
Sigh..you seem to be ignoring the content of my posts, but for those who DO read... lagomorph777 Mar 2016 #15
Nice Gish Gallop of anti-GMO propaganda, including Seralini, Mercola, Vrain, & cancer CTs. HuckleB Mar 2016 #17
Mercola? PasadenaTrudy Mar 2016 #21
That wasn't even the silliest link there. HuckleB Mar 2016 #22
I believe it.. PasadenaTrudy Mar 2016 #26
It's amazing that some DUers will promote such incredible fictions. HuckleB Mar 2016 #27
Oh look, the neophyte is trying to be creative... Dr Hobbitstein Mar 2016 #11
Notice it's the same old Zombies all the time womanofthehills Mar 2016 #31
The sock puppets are dirty. HuckleB Mar 2016 #37
Exactly! nt revbones Mar 2016 #51
Big organic has done a very good job creating propaganda. ZombieHorde Mar 2016 #2
I like their food. roody Mar 2016 #46
Neither side can make a decent Brussels sprout. nt ZombieHorde Mar 2016 #47
Marketing works. HuckleB Mar 2016 #50
Label everything, let the market decide Autumn Colors Mar 2016 #5
You might want to look past the anti-GMO marketing propaganda. HuckleB Mar 2016 #6
gmo labeling around the world & beginning in US womanofthehills Mar 2016 #30
Have you seen the map of countries that ban homosexuality? HuckleB Mar 2016 #35
Comparing GMO labeling to homosexuality bans? U4ikLefty Mar 2016 #44
What's sad is that you think fear mongering politics is an argument. HuckleB Mar 2016 #48
Give me a f**king break womanofthehills Mar 2016 #94
You don't get a break. You are promoting baseless fear with nonsense. HuckleB Mar 2016 #97
Let Govenrment handle food wisechoice Mar 2016 #104
Monsanto sells non-GMO and organic seeds, too. HuckleB Mar 2016 #105
Speaking of the bees..... womanofthehills Mar 2016 #34
Wow! HuckleB Mar 2016 #36
Our landlord has lost two hives full Autumn Colors Mar 2016 #38
Your landlord is a bad keeper. HuckleB Mar 2016 #43
what is the absolute negative in open labeling? LanternWaste Mar 2016 #7
It threatens Monsanto's profits lagomorph777 Mar 2016 #9
It creates and unnecessary panic. Dr Hobbitstein Mar 2016 #12
Ahh, now we see it: "You can't HANDLE the truth!" lagomorph777 Mar 2016 #16
Truth does not seem to be a concern of the anti-GMO crowd. HuckleB Mar 2016 #19
Definitely count me in the anti GMO crowd womanofthehills Mar 2016 #96
And you confess with two deceitful memes. HuckleB Mar 2016 #98
You mean like how people gave up smoking after they put warning labels on the package? Rex Mar 2016 #29
No. That would be NECESSARY panic. Dr Hobbitstein Mar 2016 #32
Labeling solves nothing. progressoid Mar 2016 #23
Nailed it! nt Dr Hobbitstein Mar 2016 #33
I borrowed that from another DUer. progressoid Mar 2016 #65
Define "open labeling." HuckleB Mar 2016 #24
Sorry to hear you hate knowledge and democracy AxionExcel Mar 2016 #13
Make that fear-mongering and unnecessary burdens. alp227 Mar 2016 #18
42% of Americans don't believe in evolution mythology Mar 2016 #25
Agree Johnny2X2X Mar 2016 #14
anti-GMO = anti-vax, anti-cell phone, anti-power line, 9/11-truth, etc. Major Nikon Mar 2016 #20
Sure. Way to make a point revbones Mar 2016 #52
So why do the anti-GMO hubs like March Against Monsanto support those things? HuckleB Mar 2016 #53
No, I buy into providing consumer information revbones Mar 2016 #54
Monsanto sells all types of seeds. Most farmers don't save seeds, and haven't done so for decades. HuckleB Mar 2016 #55
It's too bad that list isn't numbered Major Nikon Mar 2016 #57
That would be handy! HuckleB Mar 2016 #87
Way to miss a point Major Nikon Mar 2016 #56
You cannot tell consumers they cannot have something when they want it, they will make you pay. Rex Mar 2016 #28
The pro-gmo movement is about pandering to global monopolistic toxic corporations. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #39
Science-based links? HuckleB Mar 2016 #42
Sure, just like the "pro-big pharma" movement had nothing to do with debunking mindless anti-vax woo Major Nikon Mar 2016 #59
You've lost. Face it. closeupready Mar 2016 #40
An, so baseless labels are a win! HuckleB Mar 2016 #41
My biggest problem with GMO (laboratory-based hybridization) kentauros Mar 2016 #45
Any variety can do that. HuckleB Mar 2016 #49
Percy Schmeiser myth Major Nikon Mar 2016 #63
Indeed. -eom- HuckleB Mar 2016 #64
Your biggest problem was never anything more than smoke and mirrors Major Nikon Mar 2016 #62
Yeah, I don't really care about your opinion. kentauros Mar 2016 #70
So you admit that reality does not matter to you. HuckleB Mar 2016 #72
Rest assured the feeling is mutual Major Nikon Mar 2016 #73
I don't entirely trust Wikipedia, especially with how it's run these days. kentauros Mar 2016 #78
Well I hear that quite a bit from people who prefer biased opinions Major Nikon Mar 2016 #79
As far as I'm concerned, it -is- a scientific research group. kentauros Mar 2016 #80
It's not. HuckleB Mar 2016 #82
What is up with the alt-reality crowd that makes them think thier opinions... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #83
"they conduct no research." kentauros Mar 2016 #88
Really? Are they published, or do they sponsor publications in scientific journals? Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #89
I don't fear research in it. kentauros Mar 2016 #90
Again, an example of the bubble you exist in, in your post itself. Also, I didn't dismiss it out... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #91
"debunk one of their articles" kentauros Mar 2016 #92
Because I sourced it? Its not that hard, actual, hard facts about things... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #93
Well, after a little more searching of my own, kentauros Mar 2016 #95
Well, interesting, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, they are providing decent scientific research... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #103
I agree with you about their website. kentauros Mar 2016 #106
I guess its the nature of my job, I work from home doing customer service... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #108
Reading and listening to language kentauros Mar 2016 #109
I care less about opinions and more about facts Major Nikon Mar 2016 #84
Really, you trust a biased source? That jumps to conclusions in their articles and is just wrong... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #86
So they get labeled. So what? marmar Mar 2016 #58
Yes Major Nikon Mar 2016 #67
Misinformation is not a good thing. HuckleB Mar 2016 #68
So labeling foods with what's actually in them is "misinformation"? marmar Mar 2016 #69
You're not asking for a label that tells what's in the food. HuckleB Mar 2016 #71
It's NOT labeling foods with what's actually in them Major Nikon Mar 2016 #76
Information is a good thing! You always side with the big corporations! womanofthehills Mar 2016 #99
I side with science, evidence, logic, ecology, and the planet. HuckleB Mar 2016 #100
We have a right to know what we are eating. It is as basic as that. upaloopa Mar 2016 #60
So why label only one seed development technology, but not all of them? HuckleB Mar 2016 #61
Good luck getting a coherent answer to either of those questions Major Nikon Mar 2016 #66
I think you know why upaloopa Mar 2016 #74
So you acknowledge that it's about creating baseless fear, and marketing organic products. HuckleB Mar 2016 #75
I think you already knew that Major Nikon Mar 2016 #77
Food fight! Food fight! So Far From Heaven Mar 2016 #81
If I Were a Food Activist HuckleB Mar 2016 #85
You're scientifically precise acceptance of 'whatever scientists do to food is ok' stance Trajan Mar 2016 #101
You don't appear to know much about biology, so your job is meaningless to the discussion. HuckleB Mar 2016 #102
You do know that this is a dead serious issue in places like Mexico nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #107

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
1. The title you posted seems slightly contradictory to the content of the post.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 02:55 PM
Mar 2016

Or maybe I'm just slow. Well, I know I'm slow. I used to believe the anti-GMO stuff.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
8. Weird that Monsanto chose to send out their Zombies and Hucklesters in a week with a lot of news
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:35 PM
Mar 2016

You should place your ads after some of the hubbub dies down.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
10. Strange that you have nothing to offer but lame personal attacks.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:37 PM
Mar 2016

Oh, wait. I forgot. That is all the anti-GMO movement has to offer.

Nevermind.

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2016/01/the_greatest_hyopcrises_of_the_anti-gmo_moviement.html

Also, it's interesting to note that you're new here, and I am not. Hmm.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
15. Sigh..you seem to be ignoring the content of my posts, but for those who DO read...
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 04:02 PM
Mar 2016
http://gmosummit.org/former-pro-gmo-scientist/

http://nutritionstudies.org/gmo-dangers-facts-you-need-to-know/

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/the-very-real-danger-of-genetically-modified-foods/251051/

http://www.livestrong.com/article/216714-dangers-of-gmo-foods/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/08/06/genetic-modification.aspx

http://responsibletechnology.org/gmo-education/health-risks/

"Today, the same biotech companies who have been found guilty of hiding toxic effects of their chemical products are in charge of determining whether their GM foods are safe. Industry-funded GMO safety studies are too superficial to find most of the potential dangers, and their voluntary consultations with the FDA are widely criticized as a meaningless façade."

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/genetically-engineered-foods-may-be-far-more-harmful-than-we-thought/

http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/press-releases/3766/are-gmos-safe-no-consensus-in-the-science-scientists-say-in-peer-reviewed-statement

https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/dangers-gmo-foods/

"The FDA does not require a single safety study on GMOs. This became policy in 1992 overseen by Michael Taylor who was formerly Monsanto’s attorney. He was actually assigned a new position designed specifically for him by the FDA, when the agency was ordered by the White House to promote GMO’s."

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
17. Nice Gish Gallop of anti-GMO propaganda, including Seralini, Mercola, Vrain, & cancer CTs.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 04:06 PM
Mar 2016

And Kimbrell, Jeffrey Smith (three times!).... Oh, goodness, indeed.



Heck, you even have this guy in there:
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2014/01/864-jonathan-latham-allison-wilson.html

And this guy:
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2015/06/1398-ty-bollinger.html

Oh, and as for your friend, Jeffrey Smith:
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2014/09/1157-jeffery-smith.html

So you are supporter of snake oil peddlers? Really?

PS:

The war against genetically modified organisms is full of fearmongering, errors, and fraud. Labeling them will not make you safer.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/07/are_gmos_safe_yes_the_case_against_them_is_full_of_fraud_lies_and_errors.html

The debate over genetically modified organisms is a great case study in how to think critically.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/08/critical_thinking_lessons_for_the_anti_gmo_movement_generalizations_evidence.html

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
11. Oh look, the neophyte is trying to be creative...
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:45 PM
Mar 2016

Stick to phrases like "me no science, science scary". It'll be easier for you.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
2. Big organic has done a very good job creating propaganda.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:00 PM
Mar 2016

I personally find their propaganda impressive, but unfortunate.

 

Autumn Colors

(2,379 posts)
5. Label everything, let the market decide
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:08 PM
Mar 2016

Isn't that the corporate gospel? "Let the market decide?"

Even if GMOs are proven 20 years down the road (after studies on their LONG-TERM effects), they get drenched in pesticides ... so I'll take my food without the side of pesticides, thanks.

The bees thank you, too.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
35. Have you seen the map of countries that ban homosexuality?
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:09 PM
Mar 2016

It's not much different. You have no justification for labeling. Your last meme is ludicrously bad proaganda. It is embarrassing to you, whether you realize it or not.

A GMO label tells you zilch:

http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2016/03/what-does-a-gmo-label-tell-you-about-herbicide-use/

womanofthehills

(8,703 posts)
94. Give me a f**king break
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 07:00 PM
Mar 2016

Take your Monsanto check and go buy a bunch of GMO's to eat. You are an embarrassment to this site.

wisechoice

(180 posts)
104. Let Govenrment handle food
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:50 PM
Mar 2016

If we need GMO science, let government handle the food science and get the corporations out of controlling the food, just like important public services such as police. Can't trust corporations with our food safety. Until then label the GMOs so that we can punish Monsonto

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
105. Monsanto sells non-GMO and organic seeds, too.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:54 PM
Mar 2016

Also, many other companies develop GMO seeds.

And all types of seed are patented.

There is far more research done on the far more predictable GMO seeds than on any other type of seed from any other type of seed development technology.

I'm pro government science, but the funding is far away right now.

Labeling one seed development technology and not all of them shows that this is just a marketing trend that got out of hand. It serves no purpose. It gives you no actual information of benefit. And it can't be justified logically.

http://www.marklynas.org/2013/04/time-to-call-out-the-anti-gmo-conspiracy-theory/

 

Autumn Colors

(2,379 posts)
38. Our landlord has lost two hives full
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 10:36 PM
Mar 2016

Just talking about a homeowner who grows veggies in the backyard garden (no pesticides, saves his own seeds each year). We live in a duplex. They live in the other 1/2. He has a hive at the back of the yard near the woods. Lots of farms grow corn around here, though, so I have to assume GMO + pesticides. He's lost 2 hives of bees in the last two years.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
7. what is the absolute negative in open labeling?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:17 PM
Mar 2016

Beyond simple perception or branding, what is the absolute and objective negative in open labeling?

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
12. It creates and unnecessary panic.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:49 PM
Mar 2016

It's like requiring table salt to have a big label saying "Contains Chlorine".

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
16. Ahh, now we see it: "You can't HANDLE the truth!"
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 04:05 PM
Mar 2016

Eventually, when backed against the wall, those with secrets to hide always resort to "the truth will create panic!"

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
98. And you confess with two deceitful memes.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 07:08 PM
Mar 2016
http://www.popsci.com/article/science/core-truths-10-common-gmo-claims-debunked

The fact that you don't even know what the problem is with your second meme is quite telling. Of course, since you think Vani Hari has something to offer the world besides ugly con games aimed at making herself rich, that's not surprising.
 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
29. You mean like how people gave up smoking after they put warning labels on the package?
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:49 PM
Mar 2016

I assure you people are more addicted to eating food then smoking, but go ahead with that canard if you think it counts for something.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
32. No. That would be NECESSARY panic.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 06:34 PM
Mar 2016

Unnecessary panic would be people avoiding products because some idiot with no credentials on TV or some website says it's bad, even will ALL scientific evidence stating the contrary.

AxionExcel

(755 posts)
13. Sorry to hear you hate knowledge and democracy
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:54 PM
Mar 2016

Never fear. DU gets a systematic and unrelenting barrage of pro GMO, Inc. PR, and Organic Hippie Punching, so you can heave a sigh of relief about that.

It is tragic in a weird way that you will have to learn to tolerate democracy (92% of Americans want labels), and will also have to put up with information and accessible knowledge. But you and your Elite 8% Cohort can always refuse to read the labels and maintain the purity of your ignorance.

alp227

(32,020 posts)
18. Make that fear-mongering and unnecessary burdens.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 04:08 PM
Mar 2016

It's sad that big companies bend over to every crank and quack complaint and accommodates every level of ignorance in the name of "informing".

Great argumentum ad populum. Ask LGBT couples in California how well majority rule worked out in 2008.

I'm a thinking progressive, not just a "stick it to the man" hippie. Unlike in 1968, information is cheap and readily available for those who want to open their minds.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
25. 42% of Americans don't believe in evolution
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 02:34 PM
Mar 2016

At one point people thought slavery was good for black people. Just a few years ago people thought aids was a gay disease and same sex marriage was bad.

George Bush had a 90% approval rating in October 2001.

Appealing to the majority opinion regardless of if it's correct or not doesn't hold a lot of weight scientifically.

Johnny2X2X

(19,063 posts)
14. Agree
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:59 PM
Mar 2016

This movement is not based on fact and it's simply slapping a "Good" or "No Good" label on foods for no scientific reason. Consumers will make less informed decisions because of it.

And the only reason why "Big Food" is now OK with it is that they've positioned themselves to game the system to charge people more money for the same foods.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
20. anti-GMO = anti-vax, anti-cell phone, anti-power line, 9/11-truth, etc.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:46 PM
Mar 2016

The true believers of those movements who were (and probably still are) convinced they alone had a monopoly on the truth. If you didn't believe cell phones caused brain cancer, vaccines cause autism, high tension power lines are harming kids, Cheney orchestrated 9/11, government orchestrated mind control, aliens are abducting people, water fluoridation causes submission to the NWO, a big-pharma conspiracy is suppressing natural cures, AIDS was bio-engineered by the government, then you MUST be part of the conspiracy. Whether they admit it or not, pretty much all the biggest anti-GMO fanatics hit up on one or more of those creatively speculative topics as evidenced by the truly nutty sources they parrot out. Many of these favorite sources have close ties to the far right wing, up to and sometimes including anti-Semitism, which is why the crazy talk is covered by the TOS when it ventures too far into tin-foil-hat land.

So yeah, it really is very much like religious belief where anyone who calls bullshit on an imaginary friend MUST be a tool of the devil. Same tune, different verse.

 

revbones

(3,660 posts)
52. Sure. Way to make a point
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 11:52 AM
Mar 2016

Something you disagree with is just like something false. That's an awesome way to discredit. Too bad it doesn't work.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
53. So why do the anti-GMO hubs like March Against Monsanto support those things?
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 11:59 AM
Mar 2016
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/March_Against_Monsanto

Here's another anti-GMO, anti-vaccine. pro-pseudoscience web page, flying its flag proudly.
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/anti-gmo-pro-vaccine

Anti-GMO and anti-vaccination campaigns – two faces of the same movement?
http://www.marklynas.org/2016/03/anti-gmo-anti-vaccination-campaigns-two-faces-movement/

Meanwhile, noting your post above, it appears that you buy into another conspiracy: That anyone who follows the actual science on GMOs must work for Monsanto or another similar company.

Hmm.
 

revbones

(3,660 posts)
54. No, I buy into providing consumer information
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:05 PM
Mar 2016

and I'd like to know about GMO's so I can avoid them.

I don't want to support Monsanto. I like farmers being able to recapture their seeds. I like bees. I like biodiversity. I like my bacteria to be naturally occuring without corrupted DNA. I don't like over-use of herbicides.

And I know enough of the industry its lax oversight and potential earth destroying disasters such as klebsiella planticola which could have destroyed all plant life on earth.

So comparing GMO labeling to a truther movement is not only ridiculous, it's highly suspicious.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
55. Monsanto sells all types of seeds. Most farmers don't save seeds, and haven't done so for decades.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:08 PM
Mar 2016

Those that do save seeds, don't grow much food, and they can save all the seeds they want to save. It's just not very efficient.

And to clarify, Monsanto sells organic, non-GMO, and GMO seeds, as do other seed companies. All types of seeds can be patented, btw.

GMOs are far more researched than any other type of seed. They're also more predictable. They have led to fewer pesticides being sprayed, and to safer herbicides being used. Organic and non-GMO foods use pesticides and herbicides, too, and many of them are more toxic than those used on GMOs. Organic herbicides and pesticides are often less effective, as well, so they can end up using far more of the stuff.

You have no reason to avoid GMOs, other than baseless fear.

Thus, your entire argument is based on fictions. It is a truther type of movement, like it or not.

You have no reason to avoid GMOs, other than baseless fear.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bad-science-checklist-gmo-opponents/

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
57. It's too bad that list isn't numbered
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:40 PM
Mar 2016

That way when the anti-science crowd tries to float a well debunked argument, instead of trying to educate an obvious bubble dweller, you can just list the number of their parroted nonsense.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
56. Way to miss a point
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:35 PM
Mar 2016

Whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant to the point. Whether their arguments are false or not is irrelevant to the point.

The point was the method of their ad hominem attacks are no different than other half-fast conspiracy theory ad hominem attacks which is simply to claim anyone who disagrees with them is part of the conspiracy. That way they never have to consider any opposing arguments and can just comfortably live inside their bubble.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
28. You cannot tell consumers they cannot have something when they want it, they will make you pay.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:44 PM
Mar 2016

Won't labels cause the end of the world? I suggest we just not label anything, makes life more of a challenge!

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
45. My biggest problem with GMO (laboratory-based hybridization)
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 03:11 AM
Mar 2016

is that it dilutes and destroys heirloom varieties of the same crops.

I know that's not necessarily an important fact to either side, but if you were growing an heirloom variety of corn for specialty markets/restaurants, you sure as hell would be upset if your GMO-planting neighbor's plant-pollen ruined your entire crop. Or worse, the GMO-patent owner took you to court for "stealing" their intellectual property.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
49. Any variety can do that.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 11:35 AM
Mar 2016

Any plant developed using any seed development technology can do that.

Your heirloom plants can do that.

Thus, your argument makes no sense as an argument against any single type of seed development technology.

It's just bad anti-GMO propaganda.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
62. Your biggest problem was never anything more than smoke and mirrors
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:14 PM
Mar 2016

GMO crops "dilutes and destroys heirloom varieties of the same crops" to the exact same degree as any other dissimilar crop of the same species. Overseeding of adjacent fields has literally been going on for thousands of years.

The next time someone tries floating this allegation, ask them for an example of when and where this happened. Assuming you get any sort of coherent reply, inevitably you will be directed to the case of Percy Schmeiser who is heralded as something of a folk hero among the anti-GMO crowd. Now Percy certainly likes to travel the world and provide his sob story provided he's getting paid by the organic industry, but the problem is the story he tells publicly and the story that was told in court are quite different. Percy lied in court, he continues to lie, and certain people with an agenda continue to repeat those lies even though they have been well debunked.


As established in the original Federal Court trial decision, Percy Schmeiser, a canola breeder and grower in Bruno, Saskatchewan, first discovered Roundup-resistant canola in his crops in 1997.[4] He had used Roundup herbicide to clear weeds around power poles and in ditches adjacent to a public road running beside one of his fields, and noticed that some of the canola which had been sprayed had survived. Schmeiser then performed a test by applying Roundup to an additional 3 acres (12,000 m2) to 4 acres (16,000 m2) of the same field. He found that 60% of the canola plants survived. At harvest time, Schmeiser instructed a farmhand to harvest the test field. That seed was stored separately from the rest of the harvest, and used the next year to seed approximately 1,000 acres (4 km²) of canola.

At the time, Roundup Ready canola was in use by several farmers in the area. Schmeiser claimed that he did not plant the initial Roundup Ready canola in 1997, and that his field of custom-bred canola had been accidentally contaminated. While the origin of the plants on Schmeiser's farm in 1997 remains unclear, the trial judge found that with respect to the 1998 crop, "none of the suggested sources [proposed by Schmeiser] could reasonably explain the concentration or extent of Roundup Ready canola of a commercial quality" ultimately present in Schmeiser's 1998 crop.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc_v_Schmeiser

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
70. Yeah, I don't really care about your opinion.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:28 PM
Mar 2016

I figured y'all would come through and "educate" us. Don't care what y'all have to say, truly, so am not even bothering to read that. I'll go with what Rodale has written on contamination of crops. I trust the Rodale Institute. I do not trust the GMO-support crowd on DU.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
72. So you admit that reality does not matter to you.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:33 PM
Mar 2016


Rodale has been pushing pseudoscience for decades. You really should be more careful where you put your trust. Rodale is a money making con machine.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
73. Rest assured the feeling is mutual
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:35 PM
Mar 2016

When you intentionally seek out obviously biased opinions and specifically reject those of an unbiased fact finding court of law, then that tells any reader all they really need to know about your "opinions". Just sayin'

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
78. I don't entirely trust Wikipedia, especially with how it's run these days.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 02:10 PM
Mar 2016

So maybe site some other source, and I'll skim it, if I feel it's a fully trustworthy source. However, I don't really want to just see the original source from the citations list at the bottom. Find a different source.

The Rodale Institute, though, is a scientific group I do trust.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
79. Well I hear that quite a bit from people who prefer biased opinions
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 02:29 PM
Mar 2016

Had you bothered to get no farther than the very first footnote, you would have found the actual court decision which says the same thing. So let's please not pretend this is about the reliability or lack thereof of wikipedia because we both know it isn't.

The Rodale Institute isn't a "scientific group". It is a group with the stated purpose of organic advocacy. So again, please don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining.

Percy Schmeiser's fields went from trace levels of GMO canola in 1997, to 95-98% in 1998. These are findings of fact by the court. One would have to be pretty gullible to think this was a result of overseeding from adjacent fields. The court certainly wasn't convinced, and neither were subsequent appeal decisions.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
80. As far as I'm concerned, it -is- a scientific research group.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 02:39 PM
Mar 2016

Again, I don't really care about your opinion on this matter. The only reason you're not on ignore is that sometimes you post something worth reading

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
83. What is up with the alt-reality crowd that makes them think thier opinions...
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 03:21 PM
Mar 2016

Are as good as fact. Here's a clue, it isn't, the Rodale Group isn't scientific, they conduct no research. Your opinion is ignorance wrapped in confidence.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
88. "they conduct no research."
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:22 PM
Mar 2016

I guess you're not familiar with them then:

Our Work

Rodale Institute is one of but a few organizations doing independent agricultural research in the field. We are not a “think tank”—we get our hands dirty around here. Our research department is committed to building healthy soil through organic practices and establishing research projects that…

…give farmers the tools and knowledge to increase soil health, crop quality and yields while simplifying farm management overall.

…ensure citizens feel confident the food they feed their families is good for them and for the world around them.


And here's why I generally distrust the opinions of the pro-GMO crowd on DU: while you may or may not work in those fields, the way you "discuss" the topic generally comes across as the stereotypical "corporate shill" as we are all so quick to designate anyone who doesn't toe the established line for whatever the topic. Dissent is not allowed, as is evident in your assumption that I live in an alternate reality.

I will let you know that you're another DUer whom I don't have on ignore because sometimes you post something worth reading. Such posts are few and far between, but it's enough.
 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
89. Really? Are they published, or do they sponsor publications in scientific journals?
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:32 PM
Mar 2016

Its not that dissent isn't allowed, its just that arguments from ignorance are invalid, and that's all you have posted. You don't know biology, so you fear research into it, I don't understand your perspective, you seem to exist in your own bubble where the rules of evidence don't apply. I would sincerely recommend that you learn about the subject you are so critical of before posting about it.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
90. I don't fear research in it.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:39 PM
Mar 2016

I simply dismiss your opinion on it. Because you're just another Internet poster. I have no reason to believe anything you post, including links. It's up to me to learn what I need from the sources I trust and not to convince anyone but myself. Same as with anyone. We're not writing a white paper here. It's just a discussion board with no bearing on anything.

The only reason I posted was for the benefit of those that are either like-minded or willing to look further into the point I made and make their own decisions. You and those like-minded to you have already dismissed my opinion out of hand, and that's fine, but I was never addressing that mindset.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
91. Again, an example of the bubble you exist in, in your post itself. Also, I didn't dismiss it out...
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:44 PM
Mar 2016

of hand, I researched it by going to the source you trust yourself, and was able to debunk one of their articles, which was junk from beginning to end. You are welcomed to present sources that actually stand up to scrutiny.

What sources you trust are those that display the same biases you do, you don't challenge your own viewpoint by giving your own beliefs and assertions, along with those of your trusted sources an honest assessment. You are doing precisely the opposite of what is critical thinking. The sad part is that you don't even recognize this, instead you try to dismiss everything as opinion, when this is far from the case, and so the bubble continues to be unbroken.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
92. "debunk one of their articles"
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:50 PM
Mar 2016

Wow, a whole one article! I'm impressed! And again, I have no reason to trust anything you print. Why do you trust what I'm saying then as being my actual opinion? I could just be stringing you along...

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
93. Because I sourced it? Its not that hard, actual, hard facts about things...
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:55 PM
Mar 2016

are immune to opinion and honestly, I just went to the source, searched "GMO" and selected an article, give me time and I could research the claims of their other articles and see which of those claims are inaccurate.

I mean, you could be stringing me along, but that would just make you a dishonest person. Are you being dishonest or a troll?

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
95. Well, after a little more searching of my own,
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 07:06 PM
Mar 2016

here's the Agricultural Research Service of the USDA, and a search on simply the term "Rodale." It returned 53 hits, which is far more than I have either the time or patience to read. So, have at it!

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
103. Well, interesting, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, they are providing decent scientific research...
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:43 PM
Mar 2016

particularly in trying to increase yields for organic farming to make it more competitive with conventional farming. Having read many of the abstracts, don't really see anything there that's really objectionable.

Its such a stark contrast with their hit pieces against GMOs that they publish on their website. Those are so unnecessary and makes them out to be cranks rather than simple researchers into techniques to improve organic farming.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
106. I agree with you about their website.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 09:12 PM
Mar 2016

And I don't know why they wouldn't promote the work they're doing with the USDA. And I'm sorry I made my earlier statements of character.

Just so you know, one reason I don't read such reports is I don't have much of a science background (a long since passed and failed attempt at a geology degree.) The terminology tends to make my eyes glaze over. I'm glad you can read that stuff and could figure it out. Whereas I can only recognize some of it, and then it just becomes way too much effort on my part to decipher it all. I'd rather share with those more apt to read them

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
108. I guess its the nature of my job, I work from home doing customer service...
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 09:19 PM
Mar 2016

and some busy, office file type work, so I have a lot of downtime, so I will watch videos on youtube about science, or read scientific papers and break them down, things of that nature.

I also go on Wikipedia walks, which are always fun, and right now I'm listening to a podcast about the history of ancient Rome and a couple of skeptical and science podcasts. Not all at once, though I have found out that I can absorb what is said on podcasts and play Minecraft at the same time. That's odd. Can't read and listen to language, but Minecraft, no problem.

Also, just an fyi, but generally, even on "controversial" topics, Wikipedia has been shown to be about as accurate as any other encyclopedia.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
109. Reading and listening to language
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 09:33 PM
Mar 2016

is about like having two people talk to you at once. I have used a form of guided meditation that uses that very technique and it's quite interesting. You eventually tune out both streams of talking (a different one in each ear) and relax. It's a means of getting messages through, such as for losing weight, and improving other things about oneself. And I can't remember what it's called now..

Anyway, yes I realize that about Wikipedia. I guess I'm thinking of some topics where I had read the "Talk" section and didn't agree with most of the reasons why something was being deleted. Those get just as heated as discussions here

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
84. I care less about opinions and more about facts
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 04:57 PM
Mar 2016

This includes opinions that may happen to align with my own. I'd rather be shown facts and let me form my own opinions.

If you have any factual examples of the problem you identified in post 45, then they would be worth reading. I've asked others many times and the only thing I've ever seen offered is Percy Schmeiser, which is to say no example at all.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
86. Really, you trust a biased source? That jumps to conclusions in their articles and is just wrong...
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 05:02 PM
Mar 2016

about basic things?

Here's an example:

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]You see, a bee doesn’t know when a corn field is organic and when it’s genetically modified. Bees fly around freely; nobody is watching them, and nobody knows which plants they visit and which they don’t. I read a great story about rooftop bees producing red honey in Brooklyn. Nobody knew why the local honey was red. Could it be some local nutritious miracle? No. They found a massive swarm of bees at the nearby maraschino cherry factory slurping up the red-dye colored high fructose corn syrup leaking from the building and bringing it back to the hive. Garbage in, garbage out, they say.

...

There has also been a great focus over the past few years on the colony collapse disorder affecting the honeybee population in the United States. At this point, there doesn’t seem to be a clear reason for where or why the honeybees are going; only that with the honeybees goes the honey. And without honey, we lose a delicious and nutritious sweetener. But much more importantly, we lose an important part of the environment that ensures the sustainable production of fruits, vegetables, seeds and other crops. One theory is that the increased presence of GMOs in our crops has negatively affected our honeybees. In addition to hurting our ability to source a quality supply of domestic honey, GMOs are also hurting the honeybee population.

http://rodaleinstitute.org/gmo-honey/

First off, I wanted to say the tone of this entire article is biased and wouldn't withstand the standards Wikipedia enforces for all its articles, I wanted to point that out since you apparently trust a biased source over an unbiased one. Particularly egregious is there statement about GMOs hurting honeybee populations, this simply isn't true, at best its an unproven assertion, at worst, an outright lie.

And, having been curious about the so called existence of "GMO Honey", I found a couple of problems with this, first, corn isn't pollinated by bees, but by the wind, in addition, corn also isn't a source for nectar either, so isn't used to make honey.

Source: http://peacebeefarm.blogspot.com/2009/07/corn-produces-pollen.html

The only possible way to get GMO anything into honey is through errant pollen entering the bee honey after production, as pointed out in the article above. Mostly in the form of "Bee bread" a mix of proteins from pollen and honey that bees themselves consume, humans generally don't consume them unless as a supplement from supplement stores. In addition, unless you are eating raw honey, most of it is processed and filtered to remove contaminates such as pollen, so by the end, it contains zero DNA.

Source: http://glorybee.com/content/honey-facts-nutrition

ON EDIT: Forgot my conclusion! Doh! In conclusion, the fact of the matter is that this article is wrong, and it was one of the top two in an in site search for "GMO" that I did, I can, if you want, debunk their other articles.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
71. You're not asking for a label that tells what's in the food.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:31 PM
Mar 2016

You are asking to label a single seed development technology, while not labeling all the other seed development technologies. And knowing that technology tells you nothing about the food itself, how it was grown, what modification was made, etc...

It's disinformation of the worst kind, and it's all derived from organic companies' ugly marketing campaign to demonize a specific seed development technology.

So, yes, indeed!

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/07/are_gmos_safe_yes_the_case_against_them_is_full_of_fraud_lies_and_errors.html

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
76. It's NOT labeling foods with what's actually in them
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:56 PM
Mar 2016

Corn is corn regardless of what method is used to produce the seeds. What we are actually talking about is labeling a method of production which is unprecedented. So anyone who tries to tell you this is simply about doing something which is already being done is pissing on your shoes and telling you it's raining.

Furthermore this isn't about labeling and it isn't even exclusively about government mandated labeling. It's about a specific federal government mandated label, the purpose of which is to provide useful ingredient information to consumers which they can use to avoid ingredients which may produce an unwanted reaction. You do understand there's a hazard to filling this space with superfluous information, yes?

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
100. I side with science, evidence, logic, ecology, and the planet.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 07:15 PM
Mar 2016

Last edited Wed Mar 30, 2016, 09:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Why do you side with corporations that lie in order to con people into their more expensive products that need use more land, and are no safer or better for the planet or its people?

http://www.marklynas.org/2013/04/time-to-call-out-the-anti-gmo-conspiracy-theory/

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
60. We have a right to know what we are eating. It is as basic as that.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:53 PM
Mar 2016

Last edited Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:35 PM - Edit history (1)

We have a right to make food choices for ourselves.

No corporation or organization should be in control of the world's food source.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
61. So why label only one seed development technology, but not all of them?
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:58 PM
Mar 2016

And what does that tell you?

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
66. Good luck getting a coherent answer to either of those questions
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:21 PM
Mar 2016

The standard answer is corporations are evil, just not the ones that produce anything other than GMO because of well....reasons.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
75. So you acknowledge that it's about creating baseless fear, and marketing organic products.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:38 PM
Mar 2016

Thanks!

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
101. You're scientifically precise acceptance of 'whatever scientists do to food is ok' stance
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:16 PM
Mar 2016

Is less palatable to us scientific idiots than you realize, apparently ...

Give us idiots the labels, and we'll eat naturally evolved foods whilst flinging poo against the walls ...

Ooo ooo ooo Ah ahh ahhhh ....

Signed, Aerospace Systems Technician who has never seen a scientist make a mistake ... Ever ....

Oh wait ....

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
102. You don't appear to know much about biology, so your job is meaningless to the discussion.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:19 PM
Mar 2016

"Naturally evolved foods."

Really? You're going to push that kind of marketing silliness as a discussion point?

PS: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/regarding-science-mistakes-tropes-debunked/

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
107. You do know that this is a dead serious issue in places like Mexico
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 09:16 PM
Mar 2016

where GMO corn has yet to fully be allowed in due to it's effects with the many varieties of maize. SO you keep chucking. Biodiversity is a very serious matter here., and yes that is gasp. I know, SCIENCE

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