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KelleyKramer

(8,969 posts)
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 02:49 AM Apr 2016

The best argument I ever heard for public funded education came from a Republican


Over 20 years ago I had a job at a big corporation. Pretty much everybody there were rightwing Republicans so I mostly kept my mouth shut.

At the time there was a vote coming up on a huge tax increase proposed by our Governor

One day we had a conference call that had technical problems and ended early, so there were about 12 of us that had almost an hour to sit around and shoot the breeze.

It didn't take long before the conversation turned to the upcoming tax vote. Most of these people (myself NOT included) were very well paid upper middle class job holders. I'm pretty sure all of them were Republicans.

I had to bite my tongue several times but it quickly became fascinating to hear them debate taxes. The proposal was coming from a Republican Governor, so the conversation I was listening to had no partisan 'Dem bashing' at all... it was basically an intra party GOP argument.

After a lot of back and forth on the specifics being voted on, then they started debating the merits of taxes for any purpose. The vote was on state taxes but somehow they started talking about county property taxes. All of our property taxes go to education, and there was a lot of back and forth that they were too high, or just not worth it.

And then this one guy piped up, he was probably in his late 50's and said he and his wife had lived in our town for over 25 years, they had never had any children in school here but he never had any problem at all paying property taxes for education because it helps us all.

There was a lot of push back from several of the others on that point, then he knocked it out of the park...

He said that the better educated our young people are the less likely they will need government assistance and be a tax burden. And he said the better the education the more likely you are to get a better job, which means you make more money and help the economy, which means you are paying more in taxes and that helps all of us.

There was one guy left who was still complaining that it didn't help him at all personally (typical selfish Repub) and the guy talking didn't hesitate all and answered...

Look, if I walk into a fast food joint to buy a meal.. it helps me if the kid behind the counter knows how to read!

That was over 20 years ago and I never forgot it, the best argument I ever heard for public funded education came from a Republican... strange things do happen!


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Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
2. This article is from 1998 but it still applies
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 04:05 AM
Apr 2016
Greedy geezers try to get out of paying school taxes

Come on folks, chip in. There are just too many people who have taken advantage of programs but refuse to fund them for others. I think there is a word for that.

pansypoo53219

(20,978 posts)
3. college is the new high school. in the old days, grade school was high school. hell yeah it should
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 04:29 AM
Apr 2016

be free for trade school & public school.

1939

(1,683 posts)
4. The reason the US took the lead in free public education
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 05:22 AM
Apr 2016

It was the Puritans in New England that started it. They wanted to be sure that every individual learned to read so that they could achieve individual salvation through reading the Bible. New England had a system of free primary schools long before the rest of the country.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
5. "Free" education was around long before the Europeans came here to murder the indigenous
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 05:46 AM
Apr 2016

people.

As well, there is record of other settlements educating people before them. The Puritans didn't start it, that is just part of the religious mythology people think is good to spread.

You should also note - there is nothing that has ever been "free" about education. Someone has always had to invest in it.

1939

(1,683 posts)
6. Nice deflection
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:16 AM
Apr 2016

We are not talking about passing on folkways.

We are talking about Reading, Riting, and Rithmatic.

The Calvinist Puritans were the first to organize their communities to teach the three Rs in organized schools supported by the community and thus "free" to the children receiving the education. In other words, the community organized itself to provide "socialized" primary education to all children male and female.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
9. Not a deflection when you are wrong. They weren't the first by any means. But
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 12:34 PM
Apr 2016

you are free to provide some links.

Here's a quick one...

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School


"The concept of grouping students together in a centralized location for learning has existed since Classical antiquity. Formal schools have existed at least since ancient Greece (see Academy), ancient Rome (see Education in Ancient Rome) ancient India (see Gurukul), and ancient China (see History of education in China). The Byzantine Empire had an established schooling system beginning at the primary level. According to Traditions and Encounters, the founding of the primary education system began in 425 AD and "... military personnel usually had at least a primary education ...". The sometimes efficient and often large government of the Empire meant that educated citizens were a must. Although Byzantium lost much of the grandeur of Roman culture and extravagance in the process of surviving, the Empire emphasized efficiency in its war manuals. The Byzantine education system continued until the empire's collapse in 1453 AD.[4]

Islam was another culture that developed a school system in the modern sense of the word. Emphasis was put on knowledge, which required a systematic way of teaching and spreading knowledge, and purpose-built structures. At first, mosques combined both religious performance and learning activities, but by the 9th century, the Madrassa was introduced, a proper school that was built independently from the mosque. They were also the first to make the Madrassa system a public domain under the control of the Caliph. The Nizamiyya madrasa is considered by consensus of scholars to be the earliest surviving school, built towards 1066 AD by Emir Nizam Al-Mulk.[citation needed]

Under the Ottomans, the towns of Bursa and Edirne became the main centers of learning. The Ottoman system of Külliye, a building complex containing a mosque, a hospital, madrassa, and public kitchen and dining areas, revolutionized the education system, making learning accessible to a wider public through its free meals, health care and sometimes free accommodation...."



Unless you are suggesting the old "It didn't count until the white folks in the U.S. did it" argument, like the real estate swindler in new york. He doesn't say much that I care about, just fyi.


1939

(1,683 posts)
11. There were many schools and centers of learning dating baqck to ancient times
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 01:52 PM
Apr 2016

The Puritans made sure it was "free" so that even the most impoverished boys AND girls could and would attend in (horros) coed classes. England and the rest of Europe had primary education but there was a charge for it.

How many girls were educated in ancient Greece or in classical Arab madrassas? (madrassi?)



 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
13. It was bible-based homeschooling - and, frankly, most of thjem were trying not to starve, not
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 02:22 PM
Apr 2016

building a school system.

That didn't come along until later.

Too bad you can't find any material that substantiates your opinion. I've heard it before, and they were demonstrably wrong then, too. But then, lot's of people think they know all about education, since they got 12 years of it forced down their throat.



Here. Go learn something.

http://study.com/academy/lesson/horace-mann-education-reform-contributions-philosophy-quiz.html – common school movement

If you make it through that, you can learn about Dewey and the differences in their philosophy, and how that shaped our educational system today.

There are whole university departments dedicated to educational philosophy and history, btw. All of it stands in contrast to your opinion. But good luck with that. Really.

As to your other comment, actually a fair number of girls, and women, were and have been educated, which is how we got some of our best scientists and physicians, your bigot-bait aside.

I know because they sent some of them to our universities to be trained in other things, and they were some of the sharpest folks in the class.Men and women.

Clearly you have already learned all you think you need to. Have you learned what the ignore button is used for?

1939

(1,683 posts)
16. You were talking classical Arabic schools
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:26 PM
Apr 2016

and now you jump to Arabic women coming to our schools today to call me a bigot.

"Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer, pp. 132-133 quotes the Massachusetts "Old Deluder Law" of 1647 which required every town of fifty families to hire a schoolmaster and every town of one hundred families to keep a grammar school. The law required compulsory maintenance of public schools. New Englanders averaged twice as many years of schooling as did those in the other colonies. The author attributes this to the East Anglia origin of the Puritan settlers as East Anglia had a higher rate of literacy than did the rest of England.

Also "American Nations" by Colin Woodard, p. 61 states that "public schoolhouses , therefore, were built and staffed by salaried teachers as soon as a new town was established." New England also initiated requiring all children to attend school under penalty of the law.

While the Puritans adhered to a strict code of conduct, discriminated against other religious faiths, had gruesome punishments for straying from the faith, and had the witch trials, the Puritans also had the most participatory democracy and the highest level of education in the Americas. Wealth and birth counted less in New England than education and intellect.

eppur_se_muova

(36,269 posts)
7. You can spend that money on a school now, or spend it on a jail later ...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:47 AM
Apr 2016

(Quote from something I read years ago ... apocryphaly paraphrasing Mark Twain ?)

Jokerman

(3,518 posts)
8. Most republicans were OK with public schools until Brown v. Board of Education.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:03 AM
Apr 2016

As long as they could keep their schools white they were happy. When that changed they fled to the suburbs and tried to starve the city schools.

When they could no longer keep their suburbs segregated they started private schools and set out to destroy all public schools.

Not all republicans are racists, just most of them.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
12. Not only that, places with good schools have high property values
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 02:21 PM
Apr 2016

that's language most repukes can understand.

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