A female James Bond is awesome! So is a black Hermione!

[HuckleB]

There is no reason for either to be a problem with anyone who cares about equality.

It's just entertainment, FFS!

[beevul]

1. There was one.

Her name was Lara Croft.

[Fumesucker]

7. Way before Croft there was .. Emma Peel

[beevul]

20. Yup. N/T

[csziggy]

38. Also Agent 99, April Dancer, Cinnamon Carter and Honey West!

Agent 99 in Get Smart

April Dancer in The Girl from U.N.C.L.E.

Cinnamon Carter in Mission: Impossible

And Honey West in her own show.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. And still kickin' ass.

Diana Rigg

[bettyellen]

56. And before her, Honey West....

[Bucky]

57. Before Emma Peel, there was "Get Christie Love"

[Fumesucker]

59. The Avengers was about ten years earlier than Christie Love

[Photographer]

63. Still love her.

[progressoid]

70. swoon.

[lapfog_1]

79. M. Appeal

or Male Appeal.

That is how the show producers came up with her name for the show.

[Drahthaardogs]

2. A female James Bond is wrong

because they are no longer James Bond. A female 00-agent, sure that could be cool, but it's not James Bond.

Hermione's race seems pretty irrelevant.

[HuckleB]

3. James is James, and gender is irrelevant.

[Drahthaardogs]

6. It depends on how you view it.

IF you believe there is no "real" James Bond, and it is just a generic moniker given to 007 held by different agents over time, then yes.

However, I believe James Bond is indeed James Bond, so it does not work for me.

[HuckleB]

10. Well, then you've decided fiction isn't fiction any more.

And, in that case, I can't help you!

[Drahthaardogs]

15. I don't remember asking for your help.

I stated my opinion. Do you fancy yourself some sort of DU therapist?

[HuckleB]

16. Well, you posted on my OP.

So you must have wanted help, or something!

[Drahthaardogs]

23. Or something....

eom.

[HuckleB]

24. .

[Xithras]

58. Ian Fleming established that "James Bond" was his real name in the books, not a codename.

He is the son of Andrew Bond and a Swiss mother, and was raised by his aunt "Ms. Bond" when his parents were killed.

But does that really matter at all? Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively named their daughter James, so it can clearly still be played by a woman. The name James might not be as gender neutral as some options, but there's some history of it being used in a gender neutral fashion.

[Rex]

69. Maybe he has a long lost sister.

Interesting, I did not know the origin story for James Bond. Thanks.

[Drahthaardogs]

72. To some it does, to others not.

I find fusion food stupid and I don't like new Coke. I am traditionalist in some regard. I did not like the new Point Break either

[JackRiddler]

80. James Bond is obviously the cover name for seven agents.

Unless he's an immortal fucking around with villains and communists for sixty years. If you're going to suspend disbelief for this nonsense, you might as well go with what the movies show you.

[PJMcK]

82. Actually, that's kind of the sub-plot...

... to the 1960's spoof "Casino Royale." If I recall, in the movie, the British Secret Service has fallen on hard times and wants to bring James Bond out of retirement. It's a very silly movie but Burt Bacharach wrote the score and the hit standard "The Look of Love" is from the film.

[JackRiddler]

89. Original Casino Royale is best Bond of all, wouldn't you agree?

Hiccup!

[PJMcK]

95. Especially Woody Allen as Jimmy Bond (wink)

[Orrex]

47. Why not a male Hermione Granger, then?

Hermione is Hermione, after all. Why can't a boy be named Hermione?

[TipTok]

71. Why not a unicorn?

... Or Mitch McConnell in a wig?

At a certain point you've strayed so far from the character it is meaningless.

[Orrex]

73. Well that's the whole question, isn't it?

At a certain point you've strayed so far from the character it is meaningless.

And what is that point? Who gets to say what that point is?

Not the original author, surely, because we've seen many times that an actor or a subsequent writer can give a different but wholly effective portrayal of a character. Who, then?

And what it is it about a particular character that makes some aspect central? Why is it important that Hermione be female but not, for instance, that James Bond be male?

[Crunchy Frog]

85. Probably because of the relative dearth of good female characters.

There's alot fewer female "Hermiones" than there are male "James Bonds".

Oh, and BTW, they were originally going to cast Susan Hayward in the role.

[Orrex]

93. Then the answer is to create more good female roles

Last edited Wed Jun 8, 2016, 05:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Not to retcon existing male roles. That would be an exercise in derivative pointlessness as well as a clear declaration that the entertainment industry can't create good female roles.

Oh, and BTW, they were originally going to cast Susan Hayward in the role.

Yeah, but instead they cast David Niven, Peter Sellers and Woody Allen in that role, but that doesn't mean that the character is best played simultaneously by three different people, either.

And of course they weren't originally going to cast Susan Hayward. Instead, they originally cast Barry Nelson, a man. At least Mathis was a woman in that version, though.

[Albertoo]

92. And a transgender Ronald Weasley? :)

[Rex]

65. This is fiction, so who cares go wild.

Never say never.

[Rex]

4. I agree! Looking forward to a Jane Bond!

Bond...Jane Bond...

[Rex]

11. I've never met a women named James, Jamie...yes...I know 2 Jamies.

Bond...Jamie Bond...

[HuckleB]

21. So what?

[Rex]

40. They brought it up?

So what?

[Xithras]

61. Ryan Reynolds daughter is named James. It's uncommon, but not unheard of.

Interesting factoid: According to Social Security records, James consistently ranked in the top 1000 FEMALE names in the United States from the earliest records in the 1800's until it fell out of fashion in the 1980's.

[Rex]

64. That is interesting.

I was just thinking of all the fun they could have with different names. Austen, Jane Austen.

[Xithras]

67. As a fan of Ian Flemings original works, I'd have a problem with them changing the name.

James Bond is James Bond. Jamie Bond is not James Bond. The name is part of the character.

James Bond can be played by a woman, but if you change the name, you're simply creating a new character, and not breaking any ground by putting a woman into an old one.

[Rex]

68. Since it is all fiction and I love new concepts I would be on board.

Obviously it would not be a James Bond film, but a James Bond film and since so many creative writers like doing the parallel universe thingy I could see it.

I am a fan, but not a strict fan. It wouldn't be a reboot, it would be a story told from and alternative earth imo.

[First Speaker]

5. Hey, we've had Emma Peel and Natasha Romanov...who needs Jane Bond?

[Dr. Strange]

9. Amen.

Give me a Black Widow movie instead of a female James Bond, thank you very much!

[Fumesucker]

12. Not to mention

[HuckleB]

14. Thunderball!

And oddly, it comes to mind as the theme from Underdog.

I'm just f-ing old.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Thanks for saving me the time....

nt

[HuckleB]

13. Are those their names?

Ah, who cares.

[petronius]

17. Agreed, but I absolutely draw the line at female Ghostbusters; that's just wrong!!1!

Kidding, really, and I completely agree: unless giving birth or getting prostate cancer--or some similarly nontransferable issue--is intrinsic to the character, then I'm going to enjoy (or not) the performance on its own merit. And I'd be willing to suspend disbelief on childbirth etc, if there was artistic value in the decision...

[HuckleB]

22. Yeah, it's weird. What is happening to supposedly progressive America?

[malthaussen]

18. Not exactly faithful to the source material...

... but that can be said about many movie characters derived from novels. But you know how it is, devout fans tend to get worked up about the least little thing.

-- Mal

[HuckleB]

19. "Source material."

Fiction is fiction, and the content of the source material is definitely recognized by this move.

[NightWatcher]

25. There's never been an Asian male Nancy Drew

Why does it have to be Bond? Why not create a new character and have her be female?

Bond is based on books and in those books he's a white British guy.

[HuckleB]

26. That would be cool!

In other words, you really are on the wrong web page.

[NightWatcher]

27. Why am I on the wrong web page?

[HuckleB]

28. You appear to think that fictional characters can't change gender.

What progressive would agree with that?

[NightWatcher]

29. Why stop there, why not make it James Bark, a secret agent dog?

Congrats, you got the fight you were looking for tonight, happy?

Having an opinion other than yours does not make me unProgressive.

This isn't like I'm arguing against women's suffrage or equal access to public schools. We're talking about characters in books. Why must a fictional character change gender or race or anything?

[HuckleB]

30. WOW! You really do make it rather easy.

Thanks.

[Kentonio]

96. I would totally watch a James Bark movie.

[Orrex]

48. Yeah! That's why they should never cast a Scottish guy in the role.

[FSogol]

31. As long as she still hits on Miss Moneypenny, it's ok with me.

[WinkyDink]

88. Why not Mr. Moneypenny?

[Orrex]

99. Because then they'd have to pay him 22% more per hour

Heigh-o!

[Marr]

32. Why not a Hunger Games movie that's about a young Jewish man trying to

build a rocket in 1950's Paris?

Why not a Camelot movie that's a romantic comedy set in Houston, Texas?

Because things are about things. :p

[HuckleB]

33. Wait. You're saying that every version of a female lead must have a male lead?

Well, then, we have work to do, don't we?

Oh, whoops.

[Marr]

34. No, I'm just saying I understand why fans would object to casting that

doesn't match the source material. You'd have a hard time getting me to care about the casting of a James Bond movie, but I do understand why fans of the character would object to deviations. It doesn't necessarily make them racist or sexist-- it makes them fans. I expect you'd hear the same outcries if the next Bond movie was about a hotel manager rather than a spy.

[Marr]

37. What a childish response.

Forgive me-- I thought we were discussing the topic you raised. I didn't realize you just wanted to insult anyone who might offer an opposing view.

[U4ikLefty]

42. What kind of shit is that?

At least pretend to have some tact.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. "A room to a Kill" "you only call roomservice twice" "live and let housekeeping change the sheets"

"Late checkouts are forever"

[Eleanors38]

60. "Murder She Entered."

[Bluenorthwest]

50. But the things great works are about are themes and not sets. In many cases a classic is a classic

because it can be set in different times, styles and with various casting choices. I could in fact give you Texas Camelot and it would be fantastic.

Here is a link to explore two productions currently running at Oregon Shakespeare Festival.
Twelfth Night- Set in 1930's Hollywood
https://www.osfashland.org/en/productions/2016-plays/twelfth-night.aspx

The Winter's Tale, told from an Asian point of view with the action taking place in Dynastic China and in the old American West:
https://www.osfashland.org/en/productions/2016-plays/the-winter-s-tale.aspx

[Marr]

53. Sure. I personally think that's the real meat of things, too.

Frankly, I enjoy updates to Shakespeare stories a lot more than almost any historically accurate, slavishly reproduced, era-specific presentations. But I do understand the more purist arguments.

If you really adore some story... like, let's say, Don Quixote... you can hardly be blamed for disliking a movie that claims the title, but is set in 1985 Brooklyn and has an asian female lead. That's not Don Quixote anymore. The specifics of the story are part of the story, too.

[JackRiddler]

90. Sounds like a pretty good Hunger Games.

You'd think it was all just made up!

[Odin2005]

36. I think Hermione being Black fits her character and backstory quite well

[brettdale]

39. still like to know

Why in the first press conference when Daniel, Rupert and Emma was introduce to the
world, J K Rowling said she was stunned how the actors totally resemble what she had
in her head on how they looked like.

[Marr]

54. The thing I like about it is that it only upsets assumptions.

The author never said she was white. So if the reader assumed otherwise, that's really on them.

[Orrex]

55. Well, it's of on the casting director for the films, too.

At this point, one might be forgiven for imagining Ms. Granger with more than a passing resemblance to Emma Watson.

[Kentonio]

97. Rowling was happy with a grown up black Hermione in a stage play, so why not.

[struggle4progress]

41. I was really shocked to see Miss Marple cast as a woman in the TV series

[Warren DeMontague]

45. When the cinematic story of the march towards the Iraq war is made

I think they should cast a tree frog as George W. Bush.

[Crunchy Frog]

87. Never say that sort of thing about frogs!

[Warren DeMontague]

94. You are absolutely right, of course.

Especially given his history with your kind.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/8/2/41798/-

[Warren DeMontague]

44. Gender Shmender, I dont really care.

If it's not Sean Connery, it's not James Bond.

[Just reading posts]

52. Thank you! Connery *is* Bond.

[Rex]

66. Oh come on now! You know you liked Octopussy!

Moonraker with an evil space Nemo!? Sheriff J.W. Pepper? Campy bond was fun!

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Ok, fine, Rex, Live and Let Die. You got me on this one.

But only because of Jane Seymour. I mean, I'm only human.

[Rex]

75. Live and Let Die might be the closest, authentic, Bond Movie, Moore ever made.

I agree that the best Bond movies are all done by the original Highlander.

"There...can...be...only...one."

[Warren DeMontague]

76. That movie (live and let die) freaked my shit out when I saw it as a kid.

I also vaguely remember watching you only live twice on tv when I was really little, with my Dad, and thinking at the time the special effects looked incredibly cool. This must have been 1972 or something.

I saw it again many years later and was, like, holy crap those special effects look cheesy.

[Rex]

78. Same here, I thought Moonraker was the coolest movie I'd ever seen as a kid.

Jaws in space, on a space station try to eat James Bond. Awesome! Granted Star Wars was awesome, but seeing captain Nemo in space was a thrill. I was really into the Challenger program and loved anything that had to do with the space shuttle.

[Jester Messiah]

51. At what point is the character no longer the character?

"Yeah, we decided to make Whoopi Goldberg's character in Sister Act a caucasian man from Omaha." It doesn't work. It might be a good concept to explore in its own right, but it's a different story. Pretending that it's the same person just doesn't work.

[Eleanors38]

62. Ah, hell, say the new one is the spurious issue of the "original." That'll fix things.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

77. I agree. A suave, black James Bond. Yes!

A female James Bond?

No. It just doesn't work.

[PersonNumber503602]

81. Not sure a female James Bond would work too well

Maybe change the name to Jane Bond as other have suggested, but keep the james bondiness stuff. A non-white male James Bond could easily work though. I'm not a fan of the James Bond films, so I don't know if that's been done or not.

[longship]

83. Myself, I have always been a fan Melina Havelock

From For Your Eyes Only. Yup, it's Roger Moore, and yes it has a horrible ice skating plot, but the Melina character is bad ass, and beautiful.

[chade]

84. Most of the brand markers for the Bond character are transferable

A woman could easily fit the 'personality' of Bond. The only thing that doesn't really carry over is a bit of the historical haberdashery/gentlemanly tailored suit thing that comes along with the character, but you could easily omit or replace that and it would totally still fit the sprit of the character.

Also, arguably, the imagery and canon of the films has far surpassed the source material in terms of the public zeitgeist, so really it's more a question of 'does this fit in to the James Bond media universe' rather than 'is this faithful to the Ian Fleming source material'. And I think the answer to that first question is an easy 'yes.'

Having said that, Hermoine kind of contradicts what I just wrote, but that's because Rowling is providing more info on the universe on the fly. I think, in her authority as the author, her saying a black Hermoine is plausible makes it true, but a lot of people make really close connections with stories and see them as unchangeable.

I read a really great article on this topic that came out recently by the A.V. Club - Ghostbusters, Frozen, and the strange entitlement of fan culture. It talks about the increasingly awkward relationship between fans and creators as social media makes it easier to connect both with creators as well as fellow fans, and how creators are starting to have demands made on their art by their fans in a way that that dialogue has never happened before. It uses some great examples of positive campaigns for inclusion and diversity to present a really balanced look at the topic. I'm still turning it over in my head.

[WinkyDink]

86. Or---One could strive to create original characters. (If an iconic character is altered

substantially, it is neither the character nor iconic. Discuss amongst yourselves.)

[Albertoo]

91. And a Japanese King Arthur? An Indian Ulysses? A Burmese Peter Pan?

[Kentonio]

98. Although the books give a Bond backstory..

I think the movies have pretty much cemented the idea that Bond is a codename for a sequence of agents. I think you could probably get away with a female Bond if it was well introduced, and I definitely think a black Bond would be perfectly fine. Both would fit the concept really well. I do get a bit annoyed though when people try and recast a character that doesn't fit the source material at all though.