One individual can shoot 150 people in just a few minutes

[malaise]

Yes -it's the guns.

[Barack_America]

1. It most certainly is. Parents, if you can get your kids out of this country...

...do.

[Gomez163]

2. Isn't Freedumb awesum111111?????

[tallahasseedem]

12. A fool took his tool(s) and killed 50 people

in cold blood.

These deflections are getting pathetic.

[malaise]

13. Never forget a critical one - WAR n/t

[uponit7771]

18. That's LESS practical than limiting the access of weapons designed to kill a lot of humans easily

[IronLionZion]

20. Welcome to DU

[IronLionZion]

28. Why not make it harder to get the tools?

Hate control is probably not going to happen very effectively until we unleash the secret mind reading program that is a little known provision in Obamacare.

Background checks and wait times for guns can make it harder to obtain it for an impulsive shooter who is in the midst of an rage filled bender. The shooter would have to think about it while waiting for the checks to complete and change his mind or get mental health treatment instead. Anyone who doesn't have time for that is probably up to no good.

Sure, the bad guys can always find a way to get guns. But we can make it harder to get.

[mnhtnbb]

4. Both my sons are gay.

This country is so fu*ked up. Really, seriously, fu*ked up.

[malaise]

8. Sadly you are correct

I feel it for the gay community and everyone else.
I can't process this one

[Aerows]

70. Just when I think things are getting better for us

...

This happens. I'm absolutely sick of it.

[malaise]

71. I feel it for all in the LBGT Community

and the Hispanic Community

[lancer78]

10. This person

was an Islamic terrorist that followed ISIS. You cannot blame America for that.

[tallahasseedem]

14. American gun policies allowed this nut

to buy multiple weapons in just the past few days.

[uponit7771]

19. +1

[Urchin]

82. In one of the recordings of the shooting that I heard,

It sounded like the shooter was using a machine gun (i.e., automatic, and NOT semi-automatic, weapon).

If so, you just can't go to a store and buy a machine gun. It's a long process and a judge has to give his approval.

And it's only possible in a few Western states. I don't think full automatic weapons are legal to possess, buy, or sell in Florida or anywhere near Florida.

It's possible the shooter might have somehow been able to convert a semi-automatic weapon to an automatic weapon, but if possible to do with a store-bought rifle, it's still an illegal modification.

[ManiacJoe]

91. Florida prides itself on the machine guns being available.

Lots and lots of gun ranges let you rent them. Ownership in Florida is allowed if you have the money to spend on them.

None of the recordings sounded like a machine gun because the firing rate was too slow.
The AR-15 used was a semi-auto (one bullet fired for each trigger pull).
Converting a semi-auto to an auto (machine gun) is possible with the right machine shop but very difficult to do.

[DCBob]

5. Yeah, its the magazines/clips and guns that utilize them.

It's time to make some changes.

[Moostache]

43. AMEN!!!

Ban high-capacity magazines (over 12 rounds).

Hunting rifles and muskets?
Have as many one-shot weapons as you want, especially Constitution/Bill of Rights era muskets that take 30-40 seconds to load per shot.

Handguns?
Revolvers would be permissible, magazines over 7 rounds should be banned.

The right to keep and bear arms does not include the right to amass any size arsenal or whatever kind of weapon you want or may find.

[DCBob]

45. Sounds good to me.

[safeinOhio]

50. I'm a gun owner and

Hunt for food only

I have no problem with allowing only single shot long guns that must be reloaded every time. There is no need for similar-auto rifles or hand guns. Every firearm should be registered. Every sale should include a background check. Rapid fire weapon, similar to autos should be the under the Fedral Fiearms Act of 1939 that apply to machine guns. Those restrictions have been constitutional for 80 years, so they could be applied to other weapons. If I couldn't kill a deer with one shot I should have to just eat fish

[brer cat]

53. Thanks for a very sane post, siO. nt

[DCBob]

61. Well said.

I grew up on a farm and hunted squirrels, rabbits, doves, etc. I never had a need for anything that needed a clip or magazine.

Not sure why others think that owning massive killing machines are such an important right.

[safeinOhio]

62. I live in a rural area, in fact I am

in the middle of a large Native American Reservation and most people hunt.

[DCBob]

64. Cool. Sounds like an interesting life style.

Do you ever watch the show Last Alaskans? It just fascinates me that people still can live nearly completely off the land.. hunting and gathering, etc.

[safeinOhio]

72. I'm a little old for that life style

but I still love the outdoors. Just got back from 3 days of fishing. I moved here in Michigan a year ago and love it.

[DCBob]

73. Yeah, its got to be tough.

I live now in DC area but grew up in southern Illinois.

[Urchin]

83. How much good

Will a single shot rifle do when crazies on meth break down your door in a home invasion?

Cops often empty their revolver at a perp at very close range and only hit the perp once.

Of course, you'll say a shotgun is best for home defence anyway, but again, a single-shot shotgun, that you have to fumble with in the dark to load?

[safeinOhio]

86. I've always said the best home security

Is a secure home. Google "cheap home security".

[Urchin]

97. Maybe

There's always a way around home security. What will you do when you awaken in the middle of the night by a gang of murderers and rapist coming up the stairs to your bedroom?

[librarylu]

103. How many times does that actually happen?

Compare to, say, kids getting hold of loaded guns and killing themselves, a sibling, a friend or a parent. How about arguments that escalate into people shooting each other?

Do I have some reason to believe a gang such as you describe wouldn't have guns drawn and shoot me before I could do anything about it?

Thank goodness I don't have stairs.

[safeinOhio]

112. The best part of it is

Your home, family and stuff are protected when your not home to shoot em.

[jack_krass]

87. So you limit the capacity of the clips, they'll just carry more clips

Do you know how long it takes to grab a clip reload? Its a fraction of a second.

Focusing in piddly-shit details like clip capacity or number of guns you can buy in a given week seems ludacris. Its time to start looking at the bigger picture.

[DCBob]

93. Restrict all devices that use clips/magazines.

[DustyJoe]

6. weapons choices

If it was Europe or middle east. 2 grenades rolled across the floor will do the same thing.

The dead are just as dead.

It will be interesting if they ever reaveal autopsy results on how many may have been hit by swat rounds in the rescue attempt. That has happened before, but they aren't ever very forthcoming with that data.

[malaise]

15. Yep - I asked that as well

How many were killed in the rescue attempt

[Kurovski]

100. My neighbor asked that, too.

I hadn't thought of it. Another dimension to the horror.

[malaise]

107. And there are so many

I'm still trying to process - why Gays and Latinos - why???? Given what I'm hearing - that he supported groups that hate each other in the ME, I suspect that he may not have known about Latino night and was really attacking Gays and anyone else who hangs out with them. It just works so well for the RW hate chest.

Fifty/forty nine and fifty three injured - WTFFF????

[Blanks]

105. That's the important thing...

If they shared that information it would help dispel the myth that people would be safer if everyone is armed.

There's a graphic enouraging everyone to learn to shoot and tote around loaded weapons all the time that is circulating on Facebook that all my redneck friends 'like'.

Even the military doesn't carry around loaded weapons all the time.

[malaise]

108. Agreed

[exboyfil]

54. You can't go into a sporting goods store and buy grenades

It takes some level of sophistication to build a bomb.

With a semiautomatic rifle you only need $500 and no additional preparation. The pool of people capable of inflicting mass casualties is increased by the ready availability of semiautomatic rifles and extended magazines. You can still make bombs or acquire grenades, but it is an additional level of difficulty.

[DustyJoe]

75. true

That's why I added IF it was Europe or the middle east.

The cartel stuff coming across the southern border includes a lot of military grade weapons. One could expect isil to supply arms to operatives not much differently than drugs/arms come in now for the cartels. Hardly a week goes by where mention of middle easterners are stopped crossing the border on their way into the US.

[bighart]

94. What level of sophistication

did the Boston bombers possess that enabled them to build bombs that killed 3 and injured 250 plus more?

[DustyJoe]

95. bare bones

pressure cookers encasing fireworks powder

[Blanks]

106. The amount of time...

That it takes to gather bomb making materials and construct a bomb are deterrents as well.

If someone is pissed off and just needs a little time to cool off... That's not gonna happen if you've got a loaded semiautomatic rifle in your closet. Just grab it and go shoot people.

[jack_krass]

88. +1000, we obsess and fixate on guns as if they were the root cause, but

The guns are secondary, just the tool. The true problem is hatred and bigotry of the people who perpetrate these killings. Ban guns and they'll find other ways to commit mass murder (there are manys ways to do so)

[Schema Thing]

7. yep. Dangerous technology *ALWAYS* needs to be regulated as it becomes ever more dangerous

cap and ball pistols, maybe two people would be dead.

[lancer78]

9. And I can take a 100 pounds

of fertilizer and kill 300 in a few seconds.

[malaise]

11. True but data suggests that guns are easier to obtain

There have been over 130 mass murders with guns this year alone

[joshcryer]

16. Good fucking luck buying 100 lbs of fertilizer.

The kind you need, nitrate rich, is heavily monitored.

[IronLionZion]

22. How well are guns monitored?

the kind that can kill a lot of people very quickly?

[joshcryer]

33. Indeed.

[lancer78]

25. My family owns a 320

acre farm. Wouldn't be difficult. Even if we ban and confiscate guns, terrorists will find ways to kill us.

[joshcryer]

31. You'd still be on a more closely monitored list than guns.

[IronLionZion]

36. Sure, they just have to buy a large farm first

and take their time with planning it out.

Making it difficult for terrorists is probably better than letting it be easy. Closely monitored suspected terrorists can still exercise their second amendment rights while being on lists to restrict travel and chemical purchases.

[uponit7771]

21. You make the case for the OP, that much fertilizer is harder to get than a weapon DESIGNED to kill

... a lot of humans easily

[Orrex]

37. That's why we have mass fertilizer bombings every day in this country.

Did you think before you posted that, or were you overcome by your need to protect your precious guns?



Holy fuck my Ignore list is filling up fast today.

[Rex]

49. So then you are all for stricter gun laws! Thanks!

I love it when people make a claim that actually backfires against them!

[HubertHeaver]

66. His claim didn't backfire.

Yours blew up in your hand.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

90. Yeah, but you wouldn't enjoy it half as much, would you?

[IronLionZion]

23. Welcome to DU

[uponit7771]

24. Its harder to get that much fertilizer than are DESIGNED to kill a lot of people easily

[BumRushDaShow]

26. The assault weapon ban was in effect in 1994

a year before McVeigh blew up a building in 1995.

[A Simple Game]

32. So tell us, how many mass killings were there in 1995? How many people in total died

from mass killings in 1995?

[BumRushDaShow]

38. When McVeigh blew up the building

all I know is that the federal building I work in immediately wiped out any mention that it was a federal building and that anonymity continued literally until the time ARRA passed in 2009. Our building got money to do renovations, and that finally brought us out of the shadows.

To your question - the issue is the access to military-style weapons being available to civilians that were subsequently banned before McVeigh did his deed. There were mass shootings before 1994 that finally caused Congress to act to put the ban in place (notably Stockton in a school). And that meant the sickos had to go through all kinds of convoluted ways to make a name for themselves in grand fashion, without the help of large capacity magazines. And there have been no others able to accomplish what McVeigh did although some have certainly tried.

[malaise]

40. +1,000

It is much easier to wipe to kill several people with assault rifles or guns similar to them

[PoliticAverse]

104. You could still buy high-capacity magazines after the ban, they just cost more.

High-capacity magazines manufactured before the ban were allowed to be sold after.

[BumRushDaShow]

109. Yup. The law only affected post-law manufactured product. nt

[PoliticAverse]

110. And naturally, since people knew the ban was going to be enacted some time before it was...

manufactures ramped up production of high-capacity magazines so they had as many as possible
before the ban took effect.

[BumRushDaShow]

111. Always happens.

But at some point in the future, the product would run out and be more difficult to find - but then in this instance, the law sunsetted.

However with the fear-mongering going on and the advent of social media, RW hate talk radio, and many RW outlets, the incidences have increased dramatically since Obama was re-elected, with articles about folks hoarding ammo....




http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/mass-shootings-increasing-harvard-research

A colleague of mine who is a retired reservist used to tell me how the military never had enough bullets available for their once-a-month training weekends - all because of low or no stock.

[X_Digger]

39. Yet sales of AR-15s grew during that period.

In 1992, when Bill started talking ban, sales rocketed, peaking once in '94, then again in '99, far above what they were in 1992. Over half a million AR-15 type guns were sold from 1994 to 2001.

[BumRushDaShow]

51. The law only covered guns sold AFTER the law went into effect

and the peddlers were selling them fast and furious regardless.

But one thing that is unique that wasn't around in the mid-1990s in the manner that it is now, is the web (although the mostly text-based "internet" was coming into fruition to the public outside of the schools, government, military).

With the advent of social media, you have a situation that can essentially stoke the use of violence to those receptive to it.

[X_Digger]

55. And it only applied to 'features'.

The gun Adam Lanza used at Newtown was CT 'ban compliant'-- by their letter of the state law, it was not an 'assault weapon'.

[BumRushDaShow]

59. I recall back in the 80s

the dramatic Miami Vice episode "Evan" and the underground world of the MAC-10.

[Orrex]

35. That is so ridiculous that I can't believe you posted it on purpose.

How often are fertilizer bombs used for mass killings in this country? Once?


I'll be amazed if you aren't PPR'ed by midnight.

[Rex]

47. Yes and now they watch people more closely that buy fertilizer etc.. can you say the same about guns

No of course not, but thank you for signing up and playing the game. Maybe next time.

[bvf]

48. Or 140,000, instantly.

Paul Tibbets. No gun needed.

So fucking what?

So sick of hearing this stupid, brainless "argument."

Enjoy your stay.

[Duckhunter935]

27. It's the twisted person

That is a homophobe and does this in the name of a religion. Some of the same ilk use planes to kill more.

[Hoyt]

30. Yes, the twisted people who so love their gunz that they block British and Australian type gun laws.

[malaise]

41. Cubana 1976???

Who was that again?

[Dem2]

65. Yes, a plane is a better way to kill MORE, but pockets full of magazines and a properly outfitted

assault-style weapon can make mass-killing easily accessible to the masses.

[CanonRay]

29. Absolutely ridiculous that weapons like this are readily available.

These are not sport firearms, they are military, and are used to kill like the military.

[Duckhunter935]

34. They are not military spec

But my bolt actions are actually military weapons.

[Darb]

56. Cute.

The blood however, is unbecoming.

[CanonRay]

76. Big f'ing deal. They are designed to kill many in a short time

So is that your whole point? Who gives a shit. I'm sick of this definitional dodge the gun humps use. These weapons have no function except to kill and have no place in a civilized society.

[Urchin]

84. Weapons like what?

What kind of readily available weapons are you talking about?

[CanonRay]

89. For starters, how about the one this fuckhead used.

I'm not going to get in a definitional debate...we all know what the hell we're talking about.

[Urchin]

96. In other words

it's OK by you to ignore the facts if the facts get in the way of spreading inflammatory rhetoric about the nature of the weapon used in the Orlando shooting.

And no, we don't all know what the hell you're talking about.

[CanonRay]

102. Why don't you quietly return to the NRA forum

Buh bye

[Dem2]

42. Exactly

There are all sorts of regulations on knife-length that you can carry, but you can carry an assault style rifle with grips and stocks that make it easy to handle when mowing people down whilst pulling the trigger as fast as you can. Then, while those closest to you bleed out, you can then pop in another 30+ cartridge magazine and move onto the next room. The small-penis douchebags who fight for and that feel the need to have these "toys" are responsible for the deaths of many thousands. Many are right here on DU pretending to be "progressive".

[Rex]

44. The gun humpers are all having a meltdown. They want to pretend we all need the right to own an AR15

Stupid people in love with the Death Culture guns offer to anyone that owns one.

[lancer78]

77. No, that seems to be gun-grabbers

that are having the meltdown. I do find it interesting that your sig lines features a person partially responsible for the rise of ISIS, who encouraged the shooter in his attack.

[Rex]

78. Name all the gun grabbers and times and events that guns were grabbed.

I will wait.

[ellenrr]

46. this was what blew my mind...people say a knife can kill too..

true a knife can kill, but if the attacker had had a knife maybe one or two people would have died - which is bad enough-- but not like this.

[malaise]

52. I cannot process fifty - now fifty nine

people being slaughtered by anyone anywhere.
I have to wonder if any died during the shootout and rescue.

[ellenrr]

58. well this is what I have been wondering too...

we won't know more til the survivors speak.
the timeline is fuzzy. at 2 am the guy starts shooting. Then he takes hostages and apparently holds them for a few hours. Then the police come, and shoot the guy. -- is that when more of the patrons got murdered? don't know.

and apparently the number of the murdered went from 20 to 50 because the police/rescue team were searching for dangerous devices.

While the injured lay dying? don't know.

[malaise]

60. Yep

Hispanics and Gays - I don't get it.
I'm going for a walk - this is way too hard to process - man to man is so unjust.

[Urchin]

57. And 150 armed people

Can shoot one individual terrorist in a split second. Just sayin'.

[uponit7771]

67. Yes, Armed with bow and arrows not something DESIGNED to kill humans efficiently

[HubertHeaver]

68. One hundred fifty armed people would be a firefight.

[Rex]

69. And 250 armed people can all start shooting at each other, in a moments notice.

Just saying.

[Lancero]

79. 150 people shooting around...

You're a fool if you think that no one will get injured accidently, be it someone being way to confident in their aim and shooting a 'good guy' in the back, some cowboy wannabe shooting themselves in their rush to whip out their gun, or bullets ricocheting all over the place.

[Urchin]

81. Would more than 100 people get injured accidentally

Like in the Pulse club, where everybody was unarmed except for the terroist?

Of course, the ideal would be for only a few of the patrons and or club staff to be armed.

I think the government likes having everybody defenseless except for the criminals and terrorists.

That way it's easy for the police to figure out who the good guys and bad guys are: the good guys are on the ground bleeding or dead, and the bad guys are the ones with the guns.

[Egnever]

113. Not really no

[passiveporcupine]

63. Yes, it is.

[doc03]

80. Guns are the one common denominator in

most of these attacks, you have to be stupid to not see that.

[Calista241]

85. i heard earlier on MSNBC that the maximum capacity of the Pulse nightclub was around 300.

So this guy killed or wounded 1/3 of the people in that place with one rifle.

From a tactical perspective, that is an amazing feat that is so rarely achieved I've never even heard of it happening before. Put an AR-15 in Joe Random's hands, and give him a week to get used to it, the chances of him being that successful in a similar circumstance are slim to none. I suspect this guy has had some serious training from someone. It'll be interesting to hear what classes he went to for his employer.

Everyone here thinks that with a 30 round magazine, you can kill 30 different people. In theory I guess that's possible, but in reality that's not how it works. Even for highly trained cops and the military, in a close quarters fight, they miss their targets more than 80% - 90% of the time. So for every 30 round magazine fired, you should expect a hit from 3-5 rounds. In a tightly packed environment like the club, you can anticipate a higher hit rate than that, but not that much higher. In Afghanistan, our military fires of tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition on average to kill just 1 person.

This guy almost certainly was carrying 20+ magazines, because reloading magazines with ammo is a tedious process. Doing it in a combat situation is not possible.

[malaise]

92. Yep

Very strange

[Kurovski]

98. Last year we celebrated marriage equality at the pride festivities.

Yes, it's those crazy-ass guns. And how does someone like that jack-wagon get one so fast? At all?

Keep a pistol, I don't give a shit. But the meat grinders? No more. The arms manufacturers will have to increase their bottom line some other way.

Take care, malaise, my friend. I love you!

[malaise]

99. Love you back

Comrade Leader

[Kurovski]

101. XOXO