For those who condemn "all Abrahamic religions" as "equally bad",

[Nye Bevan]

in which of these cities where there is an official state religion would a gay male couple be safest holding hands in public?

1. Kabul
2. Tehran
3. London
4. Dublin
5. Vatican City
6. Tel Aviv

[guillaumeb]

1. "Tis a gift to be simple" is a fine song,

but your post is too simple by far.

Which of these two capitol cities has frequently invaded their neighbors?

Hint: both are divisible by three.

[Coventina]

2. Riiiiiight. Because Persia has NO record of doing such things.

[Coventina]

7. You were the one insinuating that England and Israel were somehow unique in that regard.

Not me.

[guillaumeb]

10. Incorrect on your part.

I used the poster's choices to reframe and ask another, equally valid question. Nice attempt.

[Coventina]

14. You are adorable! I answered your question, but you didn't like the answer.

I won't say nice attempt, because it wasn't.

[leftynyc]

12. You don't think some

countries having laws that will kill you for being gay is worthy of discussion on a LIBERAL website? THAT makes us Islamophobes? YOU are what's wrong with SOME progressives - so worried about being pc you will throw gays, women, minorities and who the fuck knows who else under the bus. Disgusting.

[guillaumeb]

16. Matthew Shepard lived in a country that has no such laws.

At least on paper. But he is just as dead as the victims in Orlando.

Is the US any less homophobic and misogynistic because the hatred is not codified in law?

What makes people Islamophobes is reducing Islam to the actions of a tiny few. There are hateful killers in every population.

Did you condemn Christianity and the US because of Dylan Roof?

[leftynyc]

18. Are you kidding me?

Matthew Shepards killer is spending the rest of his miserable life in jail. THE GOVERNMENT is the one who kills you in Iran (and other Muslim countries with sharia law). That you compare the two is quite disgusting.

[guillaumeb]

21. That you ignore most of what I said is interresting.

Perhaps you do not wish to talk about certain things?

[leftynyc]

46. You want me to pick apart

your ridiculous argument piece by piece? I don't have that kind of time. So I'll just say I'm sick of the pc bullshit that gets tossed around here that protects Islam in a way no other religion gets on DU. NONE. It's hypocritical bullshit and I will call it out every single time.

[AntiBank]

90. +100000

[guillaumeb]

96. Nice avoidance. Almost classical in its totality.

my position is that there is no acceptable prejudice, no "okay" discrimination. And I defend all religions in the religion forum, not just Islam.

As to "pc", what do you define as "pc"? Do you feel that your particular prejudices are acceptable? Are any prejudices acceptable?

[leftynyc]

104. Yes, of course

prejudices against religious freaks that abuse women - TOTALLY OK with me.

[guillaumeb]

105. So you also attack Orthodox Jews who attack women in Jerusalem?

Please link me to those posts. I will wait patiently. Very patiently.

[leftynyc]

108. ABSOLUTELY

In fact, I posted a story in the last few weeks about that very thing. I don't keep track of my posts that way and really couldn't possibly care less if you believe me. Feel free to find it. Religious freaks annoy the shit out of me, ESPECIALLY when they're Jewish - because I expect better from my own religion.

[guillaumeb]

111. Then you are consistent. I have no reason to doubt you.

I would say that intolerance is the problem, not religion. Intolerance and easy access to weapons.

[leftynyc]

124. On guns we agree

It wasn't an issue I really cared about until Newtown but since then it's one that makes me crazy. I'm beginning to think Orlando was about a man struggling with his sexuality but a ban on assault weapons should be on top of the list to of things we need do to confront. And universal background checks is a no brainer.

[TipTok]

123. Naive at best...

Ignorant at worst...

What does that even mean 'no acceptable prejudice'?

Its perfectly fine to be' prejudiced' against murderers, rapists, molesters, misogynists and the cultures that have them as a cornerstone.

[Tsiyu]

32. do you honestly not believe

that there are senators and representatives in both our federal and state legislatures who wish they could do the same?

Yes, we have a majority population that won't stand for it, but that does not mean that our nation is free from many who would love to be able to engage in government-sanctioned gay stoning.

We are not a nation of kindhearted and tolerant people. Many of us are, but many of us agree with the tenets of Sharia law just bathed in the blood of the Prince of Peace and renamed 'biblical law."

The fucked up, angry, psychopathic, misogynistic God of the Torah and Bible is as vindictive, hate-filled and violent as the God of the Koran.

And the more insane followers of all three have zero regard for human life, because they all believe they get to judge, condemn and kill anyone they think their Sky Daddy doesn't like.

[leftynyc]

44. So what?

We have a constitution so it doesn't matter what individual lawmakers may or may not want (and frankly, no, I don't think anyone who is currently in office would put forth a law to kill gays, I just don't). As for the rest of your post, let me know when any western country puts people to death for being gay. Comparing western countries to those with sharia law is ridiculous.

[Tsiyu]

62. So what.

Holy fuck.

I'll just leave this here:

http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/lgbt.html

Examples of high profile hate crimes committed against LGBT individuals that have heightened fear and insecurity and perpetuated hate against them include:

In Richmond, California on December 13, 2008, an openly gay 28 year-old woman was attacked and gang raped by four men, including two juveniles, on a street outside her parked car. The perpetrators took her to a second location and assaulted her again, all the while making slurs about her sexual orientation. As Shawna Virago noted, "The only way we know about (the Richmond) case is because of the bravery of the survivor coming out. Hatred and bias are a routine occurrence for many LGBT people." Two men and a teenager were charged on January 6, 2009. Thirty-one year-old Humberto Hernandez Salvador, 21 year-old Josue Gonzalez, and 16 year-old Darrell Hodges were charged with kidnapping, carjacking and gang rape. A 15 year-old boy was also arrested in connection with the attack.54 Hate crime enhancements were added to charges against Salvador.55

"What you get is this kind of immature desire to display power," said Jose Feito, a psychology professor at St. Mary's College in Moraga, California. "And so they go looking for easy victims, or suitable victims." "Suitable" in the Richmond case, according to Feito, meant a victim who the perpetrators could marginalize in their minds due to her sexual orientation and gender nonconformity. "That all ties into blaming the victim, who's seen as flaunting their homosexuality."56

In Oxnard, California on February 12, 2008, 15 year-old Lawrence King was sitting in a computer lab at his junior high school when Brandon McInerney, 14, shot him twice in the head as their fellow students watched in horror. "Even before his death, Larry King was notorious," according to press reports. "He was the sassy gay kid who bragged about his flashy attire and laughed off bullying, which for him included everything from name-calling to wet paper towels hurled in his direction. King was an easy target — he stood 5 foot 4 and was all of 100 pounds."57 In McInerney's bedroom, investigators discovered a "trove" of white supremacist literature and drawings, depicting a "racist skinhead philosophy of the variety espoused by Tom Metzger, David Lane and others," according to a prosecution filing with the court. McInerney is being tried as an adult on a murder count, plus a hate crime allegation.58

In Greeley, Colorado on July 16, 2008, Angie Zapata, 20, was fatally beaten by her date after he discovered she was transgender. Zapata's killer, Allen Andrade, told police that after he discovered Zapata had male genitalia, he hit her twice in the head with a fire extinguisher thinking he had, in his words, "killed it." Andrade was reportedly a member of a Colorado gang that is reputed to have a zero-tolerance policy on homosexuality. He was charged with first degree murder and a hate crime.59 Andrade was found guilty of these crimes on April 22, 2009.

In Greenville, South Carolina on May 21, 2007, Sean Kennedy, a gay man, died of injuries sustained after he was attacked outside a bar. While making derogatory comments regarding Kennedy's sexual orientation, the assailant fatally beat and punched him until he fell, hitting his head on the pavement. The killer was originally charged with murder, but his charge was reduced to involuntary manslaughter. He was sentenced to five years in prison, which was suspended to three years with credit for the seven months he had already served. He was also ordered to attend both anger management and drug/alcohol management classes. No hate crime was charged as South Carolina is one of only five states (along with Arkansas, Georgia, Wyoming, and Indiana) that do not have a penalty-enhancement hate crime law.

Or this: https://76crimes.com/100s-die-in-homophobic-anti-gay-attacks-statistics-updates/

(Looks like South America also has a gay-hating population; MUST be that Brazil is such a hotbed of Islam, right?)


Zella Ziona, 21, Oct. 15, 2015, Gaithersburg, Maryland, U. S.A.


Yet another trans woman of color (the year’s 21st trans woman killed in the United States, by some counts) was murdered in the United States on Oct. 16: Zella Ziona, 21, was shot in an alley in Gaithersburg, Md., between two shopping centers. Police are not ruling out the possibility that the homicide could be a hate crime. They arrested a young man who had “some degree of friendship” with Ziona. As is often the case with many trans women who have been murdered, the first police report identified her as a man. Sources: Fusion.net, Fox 5, Spectrum.suntimes.com.

Keisha Jenkins, Oct. 6, 2015, Philadelphia, Penn., U. S. A.

Keisha Jenkins was beaten by a gang of six men in the early hours of Oct. 6, 2015. They also shot her twice in the back. Keisha is the 20th or 21st trans woman murdered in the United States in 2015. She is also the 18th trans woman of color murdered. Authorities “are looking at the possibility that her gender identity may have played a role in her killing.” Sources: Metro, Inquisitr, Towle Road.com

Amancay Diana Sacayán, Oct. 13, 2015, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Prominent transgender rights campaigner Amancay Diana Sacayán was found stabbed to death in her apartment in Buenos Aires on Oct. 13, 2015. FALGBT (the Argentinian LGBT Federation) said that her murder, along with those of two other trans women violently killed within the past month in Santa Fe and Santa Cruz, Argentina, demonstrate the effects of anti-LGBT discrimination and hatred. These crimes show the importance of passing an anti-discrimination law, which is currently stalled in parliament, FALGBT said. “Unless this latest wave of murders is effectively investigated and those responsible taken to justice, a message will be sent that attacking trans women is actually OK,” Amnesty International stated. Sacayán was a board member of ILGA, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association. In 2012, she received new identity papers as a woman from President Cristina Fernandez de Kircher, after Argentina became the first country in the world to allow people to change their official gender without approval from a doctor or a judge.

Amber Munroe, 20, Aug. 8, 2015. Detroit, Michigan, U.S.

Yet another transgender woman of color was murdered in the United States, bringing the year’s total of killings to twelve — a number considered “a conservative estimate.” Amber Monroe, 20, died in the early hours of Saturday, August 8, 2015, from a gunshot wound. She was described as a “really bubbly, extroverted kind of girl” and “a very kind and sweet girl, not hardened by the streets,” though reportedly engaged in sex work. Although police are not calling this murder a hate crime, the circumstances seem suspicious. As Ahya Simone, a transgender woman from Detroit who knew Monroe, commented, “trans women of color are disproportionately affected by violence.” As the number of trans women murdered in the U.S. keeps rising, especially those of trans women of color, action taken to protect these women is necessary. Sources: Detroit Free Press, Fox 2 Detroit.com, The Guardian.com, Detroit News, Fusion.net.

Shira Banki, 16, Aug. 2, 2015, Jerusalem, Israel


Shira Banki was one of six Pride Parade participants stabbed by an

ultra-Orthodox Jew

on July 29 in Jerusalem. On Aug. 2, she succumbed to the wounds she sustained in the attack. Her murderer, Yishai Schlissel, had been released three weeks previously after being sentenced to 12 years in prison and serving 10 for a similar attack at the 2005 Pride Parade. He claimed that his murderous violence was designed to fulfill the imagined “obligation of every Jew to keep his soul from punishment and stop this giant desecration of God’s name.” Sources: Pink News, AP, Times of Israel.

India Clarke, 25, July 21, 2015, Tampa Bay, Florida, U.S.

25-year-old India Clarke is the 10th trans woman of color to be murdered in 2015 in the U.S.A. Her body was found “in a grassy area near a playground in Tampa Bay, Fla. Hillsborough Sheriff’s detectives say she died of blunt force trauma, and are investigating her death as murder. The victim’s father believes India’s death may have been motivated by hate, although police are not investigating it as a hate crime. Sources: Huffington Post, WTSP.com, TampaBay.com, The Advocate

Francela Méndez, 29, Sonsonate, El Salvador, May 31, 2015

Transgender human rights activist Francela Méndez was murdered on May 31, 2015, two years to the day after the killing of Tanya Vásquez, her fellow human rights defender and member of the transgender community. Sadly, El Salvadorian police are “attempting to link (her murder) to drug trafficking” rather than investigate it as a hate crime,” says Front Line Defenders. Her friend, Consuela Flores Martínez, whom she was visiting, was murdered with her by a group of unknown assailants. The murders are typical of what LGBTI people face in El Salvador. According to David Morales, the country’s Attorney General for the Defense of Human Rights, “The LGBTI population is victimized by discrimination, rejection and intolerance that can be seen in grave violations of their human rights.” The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has called on Morales to investigate whether Rodríguez’s murder was related to her work as an activist or to her transgender identity. Francela_Mendez_Rodriguez_Maybelin-Rivas_Asociacion-Aspidh-Arcoiris-via-Wash-BladeThe commission also called on the Salvadoran government to acknowledge the country’s epidemic of transphobic violence (7 to 10 murders so far this year) and to provide increased protection for LGBT people. Karla Guevara of El Salvador’s Colectivo Alejandria, of which Mendez was also a member, told AFP: “The LGBTI community’s rights are vulnerable because here nobody investigates anything in the face of acts of hate and discrimination.” Sources: Journalist William Nicholas Gomes, TelesurTV, El Salvador Noticias, Front Line Defenders, The Advocate, Gay Star News and the Washington Blade.

Cameron Langrell, Racine, Wisconsin, USA, May 1, 2015


Wisconsin teenager Cameron Langrell wasn’t murdered, but took her own life as a result of severe bullying at her high school. The Advocate reported, “The artistic freshman had faced incessant bullying at Horlick High School, family and friends told Racine’s Journal Times.” According to her mother she “apparently faced much teasing for appearing “feminine.” Jamie Olender (Cameron’s mother) called for schools to provide bullying prevention, because lives are at stake. Sources: Journal Times, Gay Star News, New Now Next, The Advocate.


Bri Golec, 22, Akron, Ohio, United States, Feb. 13, 2015

The headline reads, “Father Stabs His Trans Child to Death, Tells Police It Was a Cult.” According to news reports, Kevin Golec stabbed Bri Golec during an argument and then tried to blame the LGBT trans support group Bri had once been a part of, referring to them as a cult. It’s a disturbing case of domestic violence where a parent’s lack of understanding of his child’s true gender is taken to the furthest extreme of violence: murder. Kevin Golec has been charged with murder and felony domestic violence. Sources: Jezebel, Daily Mail, N.Y. Daily News, Planet Transgender.
Jennifer Laude (Facebook photo courtesy of the Daily Mail)


Jennifer Laude, 26, Olongapo, Philippines, October 11, 2014

Jennifer Laude was murdered for being a transgender woman. She had checked into a motel with U.S. Marine Pfc. Joseph Scott Pemberton, a man she had just met in a disco who was unaware that Jennifer was transgendered. When he returned to his ship Pemberton was quoted as having said, “I think I killed a he/she.” How he killed her is horrendous. Cause of death was by asphyxiation and drowning. She was found with her head shoved into a toilet bowl. (Sources: CTV News, Time)



Aniya Parker, 47, Hollywood, Los Angeles, United States, Oct. 2, 2014

Trans woman Aniya Parker was shot in the head at 2:30 a.m. in Hollywood in what police claim was a “robbery gone bad.” According to Christopher Argyros, manager of the LA LGBT Center Anti-Violence Project, the surveillance video that captured the murder suggests it was a hate crime. “When attackers learn their victim is transgendered the violence escalates,” Argyros noted. The murderers left Parker’s purse behind. Why would robbers do that? (Sources: LA Weekly, Huffington Post.)

That Constitution did not save these people or the thousands of gay and transgender people who have been murdered in Western nations. We have nothing to brag about, because we have violent and bloodthirsty Christians here cheering this shit on, and you'd better BELIEVE there are Tennessee state legislators who would love a law that allowed them to kill gays.

[leftynyc]

79. What do ANY of those heinous crimes

have to do with - or even worse, be compared to - laws ON THE BOOKS by governments with sharia law? The perps of those crimes (above in your post) if found, tried and convicted will be going to jail. You don't get to kill gays in this country with the approval of our government. If you can't see the difference, I truly feel very sorry for you.

[Tsiyu]

113. Laws change

Human bigotry is forever.

If one nation executes 1,000 gay people by law, and another has individuals who execute 1,000 individuals against the law, a thousand people are STILL DEAD in each place..

Ys, we convict the murderers and send them away for a few years and then set them free.

That makes us SUCH better people, no?

We have 5% of the world's population and 1/3rd of the world's mass shootings, yet you want to claim WE are the better people.

Please.

[leftynyc]

125. You can stop shoving words in

my mouth anytime. I never said WE were better. I said our laws are better. And that's because we don't have biblical law. Religion and government do not mix. If you don't think women, gays and minorities have better lives here rather than under sharia law, you're not being honest.

[Tsiyu]

127. Maybe in your state

Where I live, the Ten Commandments are posted on the fucking courthouse, in the library etc. Do you think any of us dirty heathens dare challenge it? Out homes would be burnt to the ground by the rabid Christians in my home county.

My state legislators are always proposing or passing veiled "Christian only" bills like the recent one allowing mental health counselors to dump their patients if they don't agree with their religious beliefs.

How about all the Christian-inspired abortion laws that would rather see women die than have a Constitutionally-protected procedure? Our federal legislators have tried to pass THOUSANDS of bills limiting rights for women and gays. Just because they weren't all adopted doesn't mean we don't have legislators who want this nation to be a goddamned evil theocracy. We're just not there YET.

Our laws are better now, but if our fundy Christians get any more power, we will look as bad as those to whom we feel oh-so-superior

[leftynyc]

128. No - we will never be as bad

as sharia law. Never. We will never have laws that allow women to be killed for holding hands with their boyfriends, where you can get beaten and fined for getting raped, where women can be beaten in the streets for for showing their ankles, where our gays can get thrown off buildings or hanged for being gay - ALL SANCTIONED BY THE GOVERNMENT. Have any of those "Christian only" laws actually been passed and found constitutional? You see, that's the difference. Our government is set up so that this cannot happen. Yes, it's easier for me coming from NY - our legislators aren't likely to even attempt to TALK about passing laws like the ones your state does.

[Tsiyu]

130. No, we kill people for selling loosie cigarettes

talking back to cops, being homeless, and we especially LOVE to slaughter the mentally ill.

We warehouse immigrant children like factory pigs and our own kids like Nazi experimental subjects. We let thousands die every year due to gun violence, lack of health care, prescription pill overdose and soldier suicide.

Our laws allow us to invade smaller countries , destabilize their region, destroy their precious artifacts and then kill hundreds of thousands of them. For goddamned oil. To make our rich fuckers richer. Human life< money in the US.

I have no need to beat my chest and proclaim my nation is better just to justify the evil that I am too lazy and apathetic to do anything about in my own nation.

We have a loooooong way to go to be "better" than anybody. We're just as bad in our own way, but your notions about 'murican 'septionalism are the very thing that enrage the world.

But as long as you feel better about it, that's all that matters. So I'll just pat you on the head and tell you how awesome we are compared to those dirty Muslims and then we can end this discussion. You're better. Your nation is better.

Everything is awesome!

[leftynyc]

131. Yawn

Keep shoving words into my mouth. It makes it so much easier to ignore you without taking the time to put you on ignore.

[Tsiyu]

134. Pat pat

There there now, you said our laws were better, and so they are! Don't you trouble yourself with anything else dear.

Have a blessed day!

[FrodosPet]

61. Yes, the U.S. IS less homophobic and misogynistic because the hatred is not codified in law

Not to say that we don't have a long way to go socially and legally, but we ARE a kinder, more moral nation where being gay or female is SAFER. No, not safe, but SAFER than in Tehran.

[dbackjon]

68. And it is IN SPITE of Christianity, not because of it.

[Silver_Witch]

77. This^^^^ and this and again this...

You are 100% right on.

All those posting these types of false posts are only trying to hide the guilt attributable to their religious prejudice.

[Crunchy Frog]

45. There are African countries where American Christians have been actively

promoting and helping to implement death penalty for gay people laws. I'm guessing that doesn't really count, though.

[leftynyc]

48. Yes, I know

Uganda is one of them. And I ranted plenty about it at the time it was in the news. I'm not Christian or Muslim so I don't give a fuck about giving either one protection. It's certainly not my fault that Islam is in the news so often with stories like women getting burned alive because they refuse to be sex slaves, women getting stoned to death for adultery for holding hands with their boyfriend. Why do YOU feel the need to deflect from the treatment of women in Islamic countries?

[Crunchy Frog]

58. Why do you accuse me of "deflecting" from treatment of women under Islam

when I was posting about the treatment of gays in a thread that is specifically about the treatment of gays?

And while we're on the subject of women, do you have any opinion about the treatment of women in mostly Hindu India, because that's pretty damned heinous as well, or do you just want to deflect from that?

[leftynyc]

78. You obviously don't know me AT ALL

Whenever the subject is the treatment of women - no matter the religion, even my own, Judaism - I'm the first one to either post the story or rant about the behavior. You immediately went to the behavior of Christians to deflect from the behavior of Muslims - it happens routinely on DU and I'm sick of it.

[Coventina]

84. I think that every post about Islam should just simply end with: But Christians!

[Crunchy Frog]

106. This thread was about "Abrahamic religions" followed by a list of cities.

In that context, is it really that terrible to point out a country like Uganda where there is heavy persecution of gays that is sanctioned by a state that is heavily under the influence of an "Abrahamic religion"? I'm honestly just not getting it.

[Coventina]

107. It was about Abrahamic religions in the context of homosexuality, and whether the three treat

the LGBTQ community differently.

In doctrine, all three condemn it, and all have perpetrated atrocities in the past.

In our current day, however, there is one that definitely has a more oppressive attitude than the other two.

That doesn't mean that some Christians and some Orthodox Jews aren't still bigoted, but that is not comparable to state-sanctioned death penalties.

That is the point, in a nutshell.

[Crunchy Frog]

110. This is what I was pointing out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014#Criticism_of_US_evangelists

Do you really think that it's not worth mentioning? Would it be more deserving of outrage if Uganda were a Muslim country?

I think lots of people on DU are not aware of some of the extreme and horrible things that go on in other countries under religions other than Islam.

[Coventina]

112. I absolutely do not give Christians a pass, in Uganda or anywhere else.

But Uganda is an anomaly. AN ANOMALY THAT ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT EXIST, but still an anomaly.

With Islam you're talking Iran AND Saudi Arabia AND Qatar AND Yemen AND Iraq AND Somalia AND Nigeria AND Sudan.
Not to mention areas held by IS, and increasingly in areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

See the difference?

[Crunchy Frog]

100. I don't know YOU, anymore than you know me, but

I'm pretty familiar with your posting.

This thread was not about women, and I was not posting about, or "deflecting" from the issue.

I thought this thread was about the treatment of gays in different countries, and I was pointing out some that had been missed. I will try to steer clear of your anti-Muslim lynch mob, though.

[leftynyc]

102. Actually, it's about

the moronic tendency of some on DU to deflect to whatever a crazy Christian has done to minimize (in their eyes) the latest atrocity done by isis or whatever Islamic terror group did the day before (it's certainly not my fault they give so much ammunition). Go ahead and call me an Islamophobe. That term got thrown around so much here, it's lost all meaning and I couldn't possibly care less.

[moriah]

57. Actually, many ethnic Iranians chose to refer to themselves as "Persians"....

... to differentiate themselves from those involved in the Iranian government's hostage taking.

If that's what you're calling Islamophobia, while I agree the name was chosen as a result of Islamophobia, until I hear an Iranian-American tell me they now reject the term, I don't consider it a slur.

[Quantess]

60. Pointing out obvious shit is now islamophobic?

Have a chat with me!

[Quantess]

115. You have shown your true colors.

You don't give a flying fuck about misogynism or homophobia, do you?

[lancer78]

120. So someone who tells the truth

(in a messed up way) is an islamaphobe?

[leftynyc]

3. Iran has killing gays

ON THE BOOKS for their law. You can dance around and deflect from that crap all you want, but we'll always be here to make sure you can't ignore the truth.

[King_David]

4. Yep

[guillaumeb]

8. And I will be here to point out the latent and overt Islamophobia

displayed by some few at DU.

Speaking about invading and killing, how many countries has the US invaded in the last 100 years? Is this evidence that Christianity and western values devalue human life?

[leftynyc]

15. Yawn

Heaven forbid we discuss countries and laws that will KILL YOU for being gay. We're only a progressive website, after all.

[guillaumeb]

17. Are you including the US in that group?

Some here are progressive within limits.

[leftynyc]

19. Do we have laws

that kill you for being gay? How about repulsively short sentences (if they bother to charge them at all) for "honor killings". As a Jewish woman, I know where I'd rather live. Do you?

[guillaumeb]

23. People in the US are killed all the time for gender difference.

Rape is an epidemic in the US, as it is in most countries. Look at the 6 month sentence for the swimmer. Look at stories about rape in the US military.

The law technically forbids discrimination based on race. Has that changed the reality of life for non-whites in the US.

This post, like a (thankfully) very few other posts, is Islamophobia posing as a simple question about Abrahamic religions. This type of dog whistle post would be condemned by many if it related to race, or any religion save Islam, but apparently Islamophobia is the new, acceptable bigotry.

[oberliner]

25. Do you think some countries are better for LGBT people than others?

If so, which are the countries that you would say are the best and which are the ones that you would say are the worst?

[guillaumeb]

31. Some countries are generally more hospitable.

But if a country that is legally hospitable/friendly to LGBTQ issues also violates International Law in other matters, is that country a good country or a bad country?

My question of course could refer to a number of countries.

[oberliner]

33. Spain, Germany, and Canada seem to top most lists in terms of being LGBTQ friendly

Nigeria, Uganda, and Jordan seem to be on the bottom.

[guillaumeb]

35. But Spain and Germany historically have other prejudices.

So are we judging good country/bad country based on one single category?

As to Canada, ask the métis or First Peoples about discrimination.

[oberliner]

39. Understood

I am not suggesting that a country ought to be deemed "good" or "bad" based solely on their treatment of the LGBTQ community. However, it is worth nothing that some countries are much much better than others in this regard, and perhaps there is something that can account for that discrepancy on this single issue.

[Coventina]

38. Good luck keeping up with the goalposts!

[oberliner]

40. No goalpost moving here

I am just asking if there is a reason why some countries are more hostile to LGBTQ than others. Is there anything that can account for such a wide discrepancy from country to country on that issue?

I am trying to be as fair and reasonable as possible.

[Crunchy Frog]

54. Do you recall what the Germans were getting up to within living memory?

Also, the anti-gay stuff in Uganda and some other African countries is very much Christian motivated, with heavy involvement from US evangelicals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014#Criticism_of_US_evangelists

[oberliner]

55. Certainly fundamentalist Christianity could be one of the factors

No doubt about that.

[ProfessorGAC]

28. You Cannot Differentiate Between State Sanctioned Killing. . .

. . .a government punishing those for doing the same thing, such as in the Matthew Shepherd event? Really?

In one case the government is the one doing the killing for being gay. In the other, a criminal act was committed and the government punished the perpetrator.

How can you not see the difference?

[Coventina]

30. You see the difference only because you're an anti-Islamic bigot.

[trotsky]

99. Ayup, that's how it goes. n/t

[whatthehey]

5. A good lesson

not to let religious and state leadership be combined.

[LanternWaste]

9. I'd imagine safety is predicated more on government than on faith

I'd imagine safety is predicated more on government than on faith. Remove the safety-net of a particular government, and then we would more accurately observe the true dispositions of current believers of particular faiths.

[TheFrenchRazor]

119. well, what is govenment predicated on? gov't, faith, and culture are intertwined. nt

[closeupready]

11. Because we've all been to Kabul and Teheran.

Stupid thread.

[yellowcanine]

13. Who are "those" ?

[trotsky]

20. In what year?

Christianity has become more tolerant thanks to the rise of secularism, but it was not always so.

There is also widespread homophobia and extreme violence against LGBT people in Catholic-dominated African countries.

[BobbyDrake]

22. Do all those cities allow gay marriage? Gay adoption? Spousal rights in case of sickness/injury?

There's more to life and equality than being able to hold hands.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. That's a fairly extreme evasion of the subject matter.

'Johnny is not perfect, therefore Jack has the right to execute LGBT in public'. Case closed. You win.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Shhh...don't harsh their buzz.

Avoidance.

That's today's word, boys and girls.

[BobbyDrake]

93. Like how the OP avoided noticing that some Middle Eastern societies, male friends hold hands?

In public!

[BobbyDrake]

91. The OP was clearly trying to highlight Jewish and Christian cities as "good." They're not.

[LanternWaste]

63. Said only by those who are allowed to hold hands.

"There's more to life and equality than being able to hold hands..."

Said only by those who are allowed to hold hands, never by those who are denied that.

[BobbyDrake]

92. So the gay rights movement just STOPS until everyone everywhere can hold hands?

You don't get to make rules like that.

[KamaAina]

24. The concept of "official state religion" varies widely among those six.

In London and the UK in particular, the C of E's "official" status is basically a scam.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. And that's not unrelated to the subject matter either.

What you call a 'scam' most would call religion taking it's proper place outside of civil authority.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. A scam that give the C of E seats in the legislature

If by 'scam' you mean 'something that should end', then, yes.

[jberryhill]

29. Orthodox Moscow conspicuously absent from list

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. You'd need to check with the local customs

because in some countries, men holding hands is not taken as a sign of same-sex love.

Kathmandu: Two men holding hands, holding a woman's is taboo.

In Nepal it is a sign of respect and friendship for two males of any age to hold hands in public. Similar contact with a woman is frowned upon.

https://witness.theguardian.com/assignment/54cb9a28e4b0d42981433fce/1361344

Kissing would be a better test, I think.

[gollygee]

41. I think they are POTENTIALLY equally bad

However most of them aren't currently taken to that extreme.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. I think it may have more to do with

a culture having gone through the Enlightenment vs. not having gone through it. Also probably with how secular a society is overall.

I've seen some absolutely horrific statements from Xtian extremists about this latest violence. I don't think that this is an inherently Muslim thing, though I know this sentiment is not currently popular on this site.

[MariaThinks]

43. i would say

London
Dublin
Tel Aviv

[Buzz cook]

47. You're making a false comparison

London and Dublin are safer not because they are xtian, but because of the enlightenment philosophy that governs their peoples and governments.

I realize that you meant to include Tel Aviv as one of the "safer" places, but radical right wing Jews have and do assault gays and women in that city.

[King_David]

59. Tel Aviv

https://m.

[Buzz cook]

64. And yet there is this and more.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33752111

A teenage girl who was stabbed at a Gay Pride march in Jerusalem has died from her wounds, doctors say.

Shira Banki, 16, was one of six people attacked at the event on Thursday.

Yishai Schlissel, an ultra-Orthodox Jew, who carried out a similar attack in 2005, was arrested at the scene.

Judaism doesn't protect gays, secularism does.

[King_David]

65. Oh , now you're talking about Jerusalem.

Israel is a secular country .

Tel Aviv Pride is one of the top destination prides for LGBTQ tourists worldwide.

[Buzz cook]

70. Google gave me that as the first hit.

Are you saying there have never been assaults on gays in Tel Aviv?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Tel_Aviv_gay_centre_shooting

The 2009 Tel Aviv gay centre shooting resulted in the deaths of two people and injuries to at least fifteen others at the Tel Aviv branch of the Israeli LGBT Association, at the "Bar-Noar" (Hebrew: ברנוער‎‎, "Youth Bar&quot , on Nahmani Street in Tel Aviv, Israel, on 1 August 2009. A 26-year-old man and a 17-year-old girl were killed.[2][3] Three deaths were mentioned in earlier reports of the incident but one has since been discounted.[4][5]

Most of the injured were minors;[3] six were in serious condition. The city was subject to a "clampdown" after the attacks, and several hundred police launched a manhunt to locate the killer(s).[6][7][8][9] In June 2013, Hagai Felician was charged over the murder, but the Police retracted its allegations in March 2014, after revealing its key witness fabricated evidence.[10]

The shooting sparked widespread condemnation, with one lawmaker calling it the worst attack against the gay community in Israel's history. The location of the attack—at the heart of what is seen as Israel's most liberal city— resulted in protests by the gay community.[11][12]

[King_David]

95. Yes and so ? From your link:

On 11 June, the gag order was officially lifted. According to police, a few months before the killings, one of the suspects, then 15 years old, came to Barnoar struggling with his sexual identity. There he met with a veteran Barnoar figure, the fourth person to be arrested in the case. Hagai Felician, the teenager's relative, became aware that the teen had been seen a few times at Barnoar, and asked him what he was doing there. The teenager confirmed he had been going there, but that he was raped by the senior figure at the club. Felician allegedly decided to take matters into his own hands, and together with another suspect, Tarlan Hankishayev, and the state's witness, plotted to harm the activist. On the day of the shooting, Felician allegedly came to Barnoar looking for the activist. Unable to find him, Felician “lost it” and shot those present.[20]



------------/--//////-------


Not sure what it has to do with anything in this thread.

[Buzz cook]

97. You indicated a belief that Tel Aviv

Had never had an assault on gay people.

[King_David]

101. Nope - There's nowhere in the world that's never had an assault on Gays

I know this personally.


Not all places have a backward culture where there's state sanctioned killing of Gays or where it's acceptable by a significant percentage of the general population.

In Gaza for example the government recently executed one of their own commanders- his crime ? Gay male.

[King_David]

69. Amsterdam has become one of the most dangerous places for Gays... Why do you think that is ?

Gay man beaten up, loses hearing in Amsterdam attack

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/gay-man-beaten-loses-hearing-amsterdam-attack170614/#gs.qPkEsOs

[Coventina]

72. I traveled through the Netherlands a few years back.

I was very surprised to see so many mosques and women in traditional garb.
It was nothing like I expected from one of the most liberal (by reputation) countries in the world.

[King_David]

74. Amsterdam used to be a gay paradise....

A substantial increase in homophobic attacks in the capital has been reported over the last few years.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2007/12/02/dutch-to-study-gay-bashing-incidents/

[Coventina]

75. The comments for that article say it all.......

[King_David]

82. Read this article:

This article appeared in Attitude, Europe’s best-selling gay magazine

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/828037.html

[Coventina]

87. Horrific: "Gallop found literally no British Muslims who would say that homosexuality was morally

acceptable."

Very sobering, eye-opening article.

And yet, there are posters all over this thread that would deny the reality of it.

Women and the LGBTQ communities are being thrown under the bus in the name of cultural relativism.
It's bullshite and it has to stop!!!!!

[King_David]

94. Exactly

[TheFrenchRazor]

121. pretty much. nt

[Buzz cook]

73. The article doesn't give enough information

My guess would be sociopolitical reasons.

I will point out that xtianity did not protect that Dutchman.

[King_David]

80. Can We Finally Talk About Muslim Homophobia in Britain?

Same reasons .


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/828037.html

(This article appeared in Attitude, Europe’s best-selling gay magazine)

[tritsofme]

49. Without doing any research, I would guess Tel Aviv has the most liberal gay rights laws on that list

But relative safety is a different question.

[DemocraticWing]

53. The UK and Ireland both have more protections for LGBT people than Israel.

Not to bag on Israel or anything, they just don't have the record they like to claim, especially in regards to marriage.

Relative safety is a good point though. Some punk Catholic gang or a group of fanatical Orthodox Jews on bicycles or a group of Islamic radicals...who knows which is the most dangerous. I won't take my bets with any of them.

[REP]

50. So, CoE, invented to allow divorce, wins?

Even the smells and bells faction hierarchy is fairly tolerant. And of course, the CoE as the state religion is fairly ceremonial anymore.

Ireland, on the other hand - hell, there are parts of it where it'd be unsafe for me to go because of my many-greats grandfather.

[DemocraticWing]

51. Vatican City is probably the answer. Lots of homophobes of all kinds in all the cities.

But I'm guessing the Vatican has the least violence.

Of course I would no rather hold hands in my small Christian hometown than somewhere like Beirut. The real question isn't which religion is bad, but why religion provides a nice cover for homophobia for people all over the world.

And lest we forget, homosexuality is illegal in Hindu-dominated India and was/is discouraged in a number of brutally atheistic Communist countries. Let's not let them off the hook either just because they aren't Abrahamic.

[linuxman]

52. Gonna say Dublin or the Vatican.

[treestar]

56. you got us there

London or Tel Aviv.

Still that does not mean every Muslim want to kill gay people.

Muslims in some countries can have 4 wives, women don't have equal rights, yes that is true that they are behindhand on that as to the other religions. Can we say it is inherent in the religion to resist modern social equality? It seems all 3 of the religions resist but the society's become more secular as time goes on, some more so than others. Is there a way to prove it is the religion, rather than geography, politics, economics, history or some other factors?

[dbackjon]

66. Please be honest

and add

7) Kampala
8) Moscow

[6chars]

67. the OP statement says more about a person making it

than about the religions. The odds of three different anything in the world being equally anything are just about zero. So when a person says they are all equally something, the person is just letting you know that they themselves do not make a distinction the is possible to make.

[Tsiyu]

71. Cross-posted from another thread

Yeah, those modern-day Catholics sure have cleaned up their act, eh?




https://76crimes.com/2012/06/12/in-reversal-catholic-church-backs-kill-the-gays-bill/

The Catholic Church in Uganda has apparently changed its position on the country’s so-called “Kill the Gays” bill, calling on parliament to pass the measure.

The Ugandan Daily Monitor newspaper reported that Catholics joined in that new stance at the recent ecumenical conference organized by the Uganda Joint Christian Council, which represents Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Bishops at the conference urged the parliamentary committee that is studying the bill to approve it and send it to the House. They said the proposed Anti-Homosexuality Law is needed in response to “an attack on the Bible and the institution of marriage,” the newspaper reported.

Clergy approving that stance included archbishops Henry Luke Orombi (Anglican), Cyprian Kizito Lwanga (Roman Catholic) and Metropolitan Jonah Lwanga (Orthodox).

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/catholic_church_endorses_murder_as_pope_blesses_ugandas_kill_the_gays_minis

Via Joe My God:

Ugandan Parliament Speaker Rebecca Kadaga, who last month promised the passage of the Anti-Homosexuality Act as a “Christmas gift to Christians,” yesterday appeared in Vatican City to receive the motherfucking blessing of the Pope. From the website of the Uganda Parliament:

Kadaga who led a delegation of Ugandan legislators to the Vatican expressed delight at meeting the Pope and visiting St Peter’s Basilicca. “I think this is a moment that cannot be repeated. We have been reading about him, hearing stories about St.Peter’s Basilica but now we are here physically. I think it is something that I will remember all my life. Its a very great moment and I thank God for this opportunity,” she said minutes after meeting the Pope. The Speaker dedicated to all Ugandans readings from the book of St. Mark which the Pope quoted in several languages during the Vatican mass.

And there you have it. A blessing from the Pope upon the woman who wants you executed. It can’t get any plainer than that, can it?

The modern day Catholic Church is as violently homophobic as it's ever been. The new pope may preach tolerance, but he has made inflammatory comments about gay and transgender people that only lead to more discrimination, slander and abuse.

Nearly ALL Abrahamic-based faiths are hate-filled shit shows then AND now.

[Nye Bevan]

83. That was Pope Benedict, who expressed opposition to that law, which was struck down in 2014,

and never went into effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014#Religious_leaders

[Tsiyu]

114. And it was the modern day church, not the Crusades as you so smugly

joked about in another thread. It was a few years ago, not hundreds.

ALL Abrahamic religions are borne of VIOLENCE, HATRED and BIGOTRY, in my opinion.

I've read the Christian Bobble 3 times, and you will not find a more evil, sinister, sneaky, bigoted, murderous fuck than the Jewish and Christian god.

This is the guy they model their lives and opinions around, fuck anyyhing Jesus has to say about loving your enemies. I know about 4 or 5 Christians who live as Jesus instructed, and the rest are judgmental, murderous, hateful assholes just like their gawd.

[Nye Bevan]

116. Try the Gospels instead of the "Bobble". Read what Jesus actually said and did (nt)

[Tsiyu]

117. Take your condescension to church with you

I have no use for it, preacher.

I've read the gospels far more times than three, and I don't see too many Christians who even try to live according to Jesus' words.

They all say: "Well, he said he didn't come to change the laws, so we still have to stone gays, (but we can eat crabmeat, commit disability fraud, gossip about our neighbors and treat our employees like shit, even though the bible expressly forbids eating shellfish, cheating the government, gossip and being a bad boss) and treat women like second class citizens."

Christians are as bloodthirsty and full of hate as Jews and Muslims. Not all of them, mind you, but enough of them use their fucking gawd to justify what evil they do that I have no use for any of them.

Jesus mentioned the poor 500 times, but the Christians in my state leave the poor without health care, decent pay, adequate education or equal protection under the law, so FUCK Tennessee Christians. Most build mega-churches and vote for politicians who SHIT ON THE POOR and the gay person and do so with pride and glee.

FUCK all 3 religions started by bronze age goat fuckers.

[randome]

76. They are equally susceptible to demagoguery and abuse.

When you start from the position that it's okay to believe in spirits and magic and vengeful Gods who love you, you are a poor thinker, and thus capable of believing in still more contemptible ideas.

[Silver_Witch]

81. All of these countries have religious zealots!

All promote hatred and judgement. On Joe.My.God there is a rant by a jewish man promoting the death of all gays http://www.joemygod.com/2016/06/14/breaking-orlando-killers-wife-may-be-charged-as-accomplice-for-knowing-of-attack-plans-in-advance/. Christian videos have been posted here and elsewhere including this lovely rant http://www.joemygod.com/2016/06/14/pat-robertson-gays-islamists-are-allies-so-christians-should-just-let-them-kill-each-other-video/

And where are women safe from rape - here in America where boys have their hands slapped for "20 minutes of action" or United Emirates where a woman is fined and deported for being raped?

Until we face the fact that it is religion that allows this hatred, promotes this hatred, encourage women to be subjegated and denigrated and anyone who doesn't play by "god" rules of a mythical creature to be worthy of love and life then we are hopelessly lost.

[Nye Bevan]

86. I don't think there is much of a link between rape and religion,

except that in certain countries rape victims tend to get stoned to death. And those tend to be the same countries that execute gay people.

[Coventina]

89. Yeah, please show me links where RAPE VICTIMS get arrested for "sex out of marriage" in Jewish or

Christian majority nations.

The willful blindness is astonishing.

[Tsiyu]

118. no here we just pretend the rape never happened

We have TENS OF THOUSANDS of untested rape kits in US police custody.

No, we may not stone rape victims to death; we just turn away and let rapists run free as the wind to rape women, men, straights and gays as often as they like.

We are so much better, huh?

[elleng]

85. Oh GOOD, let's fight some MORE!

[Nye Bevan]

88. Would DU be better if people only posted threads that everyone agrees with 100%? (nt)

[guillaumeb]

103. It might be better if people on DU would actually free themselves from

their own prejudices and hatred before attempting to "prove" which religion is most intolerant. Again, a simplistic post that barely disguises its Islamophobia.

[Nye Bevan]

109. Judging by the "a pox on ALL religion" posts,

which tend to crop up regularly in threads about atrocities in Islamic countries, some people still need to be educated about the relative intolerance of different religions. I do detect some progress, however.

[Dems to Win]

98. Queer-friendly mosque afraid to publish its address -- in Toronto

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/03/unity-mosque-queer-muslim-islam-samra-habib

Prayer spaces that welcome queer Muslims are often not advertised to protect people’s safety. If you don’t have a queer Muslim friend who attends an inclusive mosque or know of a queer imam who organizes prayers, it’s impossible to know that they exist. I had heard about Unity mosque from activist friends who ran in the same social circles as one of the co-founders, El-Farouk Khaki. The human rights lawyer founded the mosque in 2014 with his partner Troy Jackson and academic Laurie Silvers.

I can tell you exactly where the gay-friendly churches in San Francisco are located.

Maybe queer Muslims understand the threats from their co-religionists better than DU commenters.

[anamnua]

122. I am from secular, vibrant, and uber-European Dublin

and it's news to me that we have a state religion.

[backscatter712]

126. Christianity is more insidious and subtle in its bigotry.

Maybe in Muslim circles, it's more acceptable to just openly execute gay people.

Here in the U.S. Good Christians (TM) in the Reagan Administration let 500,000 people die and refused to lift a finger when the HIV/AIDS epidemic hit, and declared it to be God's Punishment.

Good Christians make society so hostile that thousands of LGBT youths commit suicide every year.

So don't tell me that Christianity is "better" than Islam. All the Abrahamic religions are toxic.

[brooklynite]

129. How about: they're all bad enough?

[Iggo]

132. I condemn all gay-hating organizations equally.

[MillennialDem]

133. Religions take turns at who is being the worst at the time

ask the question 80 years ago: