The EU was a forced marriage.

[CJCRANE]

The EU may be great for a lot of reasons, but if the British people don't want it, then they don't want it.

Just like a marriage, you can't force someone to marry someone against their will, no matter how attractive and appealing the other person is.

I think a lot of people have lost sight of the concepts of democracy and the consent of the governed.

[anoNY42]

1. I agree

Let's let Texas go their own way, too...

[AntiBank]

3. I agree about the UK. Not on Texas.

Texas will turn less and less red as the years drag on.

[anoNY42]

8. Yeah, only way it can go is forward, I suppose

Maybe I was just thinking too short term...

[AntiBank]

5. simplistic binary thinking. The UK will do quite well in the mid to long term event horizon

The EU was, is, and will be a failed neoliberal, anti-worker, undemocratic corporatist experiment. I cannot wait till we have a Swexit vote here.

[AntiBank]

12. "Walres" <<<<< lol WALES voted to leave the EU

You are just sour graping because you think (here comes the binary thinking) that this is a simple left v right issue. You think somehow Trump indirectly won on some esoteric detached political level. You think that it was all about, ALL about racist old white people who hate immigration. You think the EU is the bees knees (or could be if only those darn Brusselcrats would reform it <<< will not happen). You are an opponent of national sovereignty, and a fan of neoliberal systemic control. I reject these things from a LEFT perspective.


Britain will be fine, just fine. The correct side won. Get over it.

[AntiBank]

25. touche on the typo, I fixed it. nt

[anoNY42]

10. How likely

is a vote happening there (Sweden, right? Edit: or Switzerland?) now that Britain has had their vote?

[AntiBank]

14. a plurality here in Sweden have said that if the Brexit goes through, they want a Swexit vote.

We shall see. The neoliberal virus is stronger every day here. One large problem we have directly due to the EU is the tens thousands of homeless Romanians (many roma aka gypsies) who came here as soon as it was legal. It's truly a disheartening sight to see them sleeping and begging on the streets during the brutal winters here.

[AntiBank]

22. we are. We have tried to help some who are always at our

tunnelbana stop entrance. I got them job interviews with several friends of ours businesses and they simply never showed up. I also have went down near Sergelstorg and helped with a food kitchen. I met the director when I had my liver transplant (we had the same op) and we have since become good friends.


Your snark was a real guttersnipe move.

[AntiBank]

24. buzz off busy bee

[uponit7771]

26. sounds a bit anti immigrant no?

[AntiBank]

28. not at all. read my reply upthread. Romania has pawned them off

to many of the better off EU countries instead of taking care of them themselves. We do what we can but we are swamped with huge amounts of legitimate war refugees (thank you NATO/US/UK). Our resources are already being stretched to the limit. It's a humanitarian crisis up to a point, with many having to sleep in tents for lack of adequate housing. Adjusted for population vis-a-vis the USA, Sweden has taken in over 7 million refugees in equivalent over a 12 month stretch ending several months ago.

[pampango]

4. The British have every right to vote for Brexit. Americans have every right to vote for Trump.

Democracy does not always head in directions that we agree with. In this case - and in Trump's - I don't.

[pampango]

9. Yes, of course. No the left should not 'concede gracefully' but should recognize the decision of

voters and go back to working hard to change that decision in the future. I am not sure how you define "concede gracefully".

The left in Scotland and Northern Ireland (which voted strongly to remain in the EU) should work for independence from the big, bad UK, just like England wanted out of the big, bad EU. Scotland, in particular, is very liberal and elects very few Conservatives to Parliament. If it wants to become independent and join the EU (though the EU may indeed not accept them), the left should work hard to bring that about.

The same is true of Northern Ireland which now has to figure out what to do about its land border with the Republic of Ireland. They will need a wall or some type of strengthened border between the two. The Republic of Ireland is still in the EU and Northern Ireland will be out so that open border will have to be closed unless NI becomes independent and rejoins the EU.

What are you proposing?

[pampango]

13. Did my response "go right by you" too? Do you agree or disagree with it? n/t

[CJCRANE]

20. That's how democracy works.

The alternative is dictatorship.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

27. Another alternative is representative democracy.

Having had the referendum, I think we're stuck with it.

But that doesn't excuse the decision to hold it.

[CJCRANE]

33. I like a mix of representative and direct democracy.

Sometimes the representatives stray from the consent of the governed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. Generally, I'd go with the representatives in those cases. I don't want hanging back.

I think that it's vital that government of the people is for the people, and that some measurement of government by the people is the only way to achieve that - if you place government in the hands of philosopher-kings, you get government that represents the interests of philosopher-kings.

But I think that that can be accomplished perfectly well through a layer or two of indirection, and I'd rather have my country governed by professional politicians than the will of the electorate for the same reason I'd rather have my teeth removed by professional dentists and my children educated by professional teachers.

[yeoman6987]

31. Yep. That's what voting is about.

Some act like the EU has been here forever. Lol.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

40. Yes and no, respectively.

Yes, what the majority of voters want should be the outcome.

No, while the losers should concede, there's no obligation for them do so gracefully, particularly not if standards of gracefulness are defined by the winners.

[CJCRANE]

19. When the UK joined it was a trading zone, not a political union.

[Bad Thoughts]

42. Alan Milward, Recontruction of Western Europe--Read it

The European Coal and Steel Community was designed as a political basis for joint control of important industrial resources. That organization was meant to be the seed of a larger European political entity, wherein economic cooperation would foster mixing of sovereignty. It was always meant to be political, and it grew, logically and stepwise, ever since.


Schuman knew it.
Monnet knew it.
Adenauer knew it.
Churchill knew it.
Atlee knew it.

The idea that the ECSC, then the EEC, then the Common Market, then the EU was only meant to be economic was, as is, a canard.

[Jerry442]

29. The marriage analogy works on several levels.

An actual marriage between humans succeeds not when there are never any problems (that doesn't happen), but when the couple have good problem-solving and conflict resolution skills. After watching what's been going on with Greece, it's pretty clear that the EU ain't got 'em.

[The2ndWheel]

30. I wouldn't say it was a forced marriage

But this Brexit is a divorce. Politics being what they are, with strange bedfellows and all, it's interesting which side people end up on depending on the context. How many would say two people have to stay married, because of the potential consequences of breaking up(on them, their kids, their families, their friends, etc), even if one or both sides don't want to stay together?

[Denzil_DC]

32. Forced?!

The UK negotiated for frikkin years to join the EU (then EC), and held a hard-fought referendum on the initial decision to join!

[CJCRANE]

34. The EEC was a free trade zone, not a political union.

[Denzil_DC]

35. Irrelevant. It still doesn't add up to "forced".

It developed into more of a political union while the UK was a member. Opt-outs have been secured on quite a few measures, such as the euro and Schengen.

If you're going to blame the EU because the UK's been so disengaged, friendless, useless at negotiation and unable to wield a strategic veto, you're not going to get far in the divorce settlement.

[CJCRANE]

36. It's forced in that it isn't democratic. The will of the people is not represented.

[Denzil_DC]

37. You obvously don't know about the democratic deficits in the UK! It's rife.

Anyway, it sucks as an analogy, and there's absolutely no point beating it to death further.

[BlueMTexpat]

43. This was hardly a "forced marriage."

The UK was not among the founding EU members. It was proud of its splendid isolation. But then it realized that it would be more beneficial to join the EU. France, one of the founding members, said no. So the UK was not able to join until 1973 - and there has been bickering ever since.

This is a terrible thing and is akin to the UK's cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Period.

[NaturalHigh]

44. Recommended.

The British people have spoken.