General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWas the Brexit a vote for Progress (anti-neoliberalism) or Regression (anti immigrant sentiment)?
I really don't know which it was.
Was it due to the fear and rejection of mostly Muslim immigrants and the "they're taking our jobs" or "they're all terrorists" sentiment?
Was it due to a rejection of austerity and other centralized neoliberalism policies?
Was it a little bit of both?
(If I'm way wrong on this I'll probably just self delete but I'm just trying to get a handle on this)
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)turn to the right.
FarPoint
(12,437 posts)FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)I don't for a minute believe this is can be neatly rolled into Anti-immigrant policies
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)and the reasons have very little to do with the EU. Any more than the decline of industry in Detroit and Pittsburgh and Gary and Akron has to do with the EU (a changing global economy and automation of labour are more responsible).
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)and began their disastrous "Free Trade" policies
Just like here in the USA the recipe is the same - Export Skilled Manufacturing Jobs - Import Cheap Unskilled Service Workers
The Working class suffers as the fight over the scraps of a dying Working Class economy while the politicians hold up the Investor Class as the champions of the economy
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)A decade ago, Nifco UK was in deep trouble. It had lost control of costs in the highly competitive business to supply British-based car plants that sell across Europe.
Rivals in Germany and elsewhere threatened to devour the companys market for handles, plastic pipes in car engines and seatbelt covers. Nifco UK badly needed a turnround plan.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#ixzz4CV9cr6Ne
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"A decade ago"? That's...c. 2006. UK manufacturing was already a shell of what it'd been, by then, largely because of Thatcher and the aforementioned automation and job losses. (And because the UK government didn't and doesn't have an industrial policy, unlike, say, Germany). The problems of UK manufacturing have more to do with the actions of successive British governments than they do with the EU. (France and Germany both manage to have stronger manufacturing sectors than the UK despite the EU, after all.) And further the article you linked in just about every particular makes the case that the UK has done much better in the EU than it would have out of it.
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)That's how it happened.
In fact we've had a fair bit of inward investment from EU funds - e.g. in our devastated coal communities.
pampango
(24,692 posts)is why he supports Brexit and, probably, why Sanders, Clinton and Obama opposed it.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)Response to NightWatcher (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)but the anti immigration nationalism isn't getting too much mention. I do hear some mention of the code words Nationalism and Sovereignty.
Hate veiled as economic progression is a nasty thing.
Native
(5,943 posts)craigmatic
(4,510 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)He was under pressure from the ever present Europhobic elements within/aligned with the Conservative party and thought if he called the referendum and won, it would put them back in their box for a few years.
He gambled and lost.
ETA: according to many commentators, he was emboldened to do so by his success with the Scottish independence referendum.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... and ear.
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)Many think that he was emboldened by his success re the Scottish independence referendum - where he got the result he wanted and made the pressure go away.
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)in the first place. This was stupid and it hurt the UK and US's economy and he was right to resign. Cameron was a fool.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)what it is??? Its not going to work out well for England....
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)It can go either way depending on who fights hardest for it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/eu-referendum-working-class-revolt-grieve#comment-77106792
baldguy
(36,649 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)dawg
(10,624 posts)The wealthy and powerful wanted out of the EU because they resented a powerful regulatory body telling them what their companies could and could not do.
Xenophobes wanted out of the EU because they wanted to be able to close their borders.
Now, England and Wales are likely to experience modest but permanent decreases in their living standards. Scotland and N. Ireland will probably just leave. What a waste.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The big push for this came from the far-right parties, based on straight-up xenophobia. But it wouldn't have succeeded if not for the economic mismanagement and austerity.
Vinca
(50,303 posts)sendero
(28,552 posts).. it was not about one thing. Clearly, neoliberal economics has failed the working and middle classes and people are tired of waiting for these policies to trickle down.
The anti-immigration sentiment was also definitely a factor. Of course, most folks around here get the vapors at the idea that a country's citizens should decide who and how many are allowed to immigrate into their country, I happen to disagree.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... context about what it is mostly about and few of it is good.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)The UK is a country of speculators, millionaires and stock-trading. Their whole economy is geared towards bending over for Big Money.
What do you think why all the greek and russian millionaires are coming to London???????????????????
The UK is an importer of goods, not a producer. And there are several industries in ailing rural areas that were propped up with EU-money.
Those very same people who can make a living thanks to the EU now voted for leaving the EU. And what happens to those people and those jobs when the british economy stumbles and the UK doesn't have the money to prop up unprofitable fisheries in the deepest hinterland?
Denzil_DC
(7,257 posts)In terms of your chosen issues, I'd say it was a rebellion against the effects of homegrown UK neoliberalism and the fetish for austerity that stems from Thatcherism, with the EU and immigrants from any number of locations (most UK immigrants are Polish) as handy scapegoats for those effects.
Which means that nothing will change in a positive way as a result.
It's obviously up to you, but please don't self-delete, BTW.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)It's not simplistic. Good or Bad. Immigration and austerity.
Obviously, there is dissatisfaction with the EU not only in the UK but other countries too. Why?
Immigration is a symptom of a EU leadership not listening to their own citizens. Immigration is but one example of that over the years. The leadership decided they knew best what was right and if their citizens didn't agree, they took the attitude of "we know better than those unwashed masses".
In fact, the EU has taken that attitude on many topics. Eventually, if you ignore the wishes of the citizens of your country, then they will replace you.
Lesson learned for every democracy.
Native
(5,943 posts)To let 1/2 plus one determine the fate of an entire nation is totally disturbing to me.
modem77
(191 posts)Native
(5,943 posts)modem77
(191 posts)Native
(5,943 posts)we have the primaries and we have recounts. And by the way, their rules do not even allow for a recount.
Reter
(2,188 posts)Well beyond the recount spread.
Native
(5,943 posts)If you're taking about the Brexit vote, I've read that there is no provision for a national recount.
Reter
(2,188 posts)4 points isn't close enough for recounts.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Left-leaning reasons were WAY down the list. IIRC the top 3 were al jingoistic parochialism.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)I hadn't heard a breakdown yet, but bbc was trying to dodge the idea of "sovereignty" which is dog whistle racism and anti immigration sentiment.
Native
(5,943 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)There were many reasons people voted to leave the EU. Claiming that it was all due to racism and anti-immigration is foolish.
modem77
(191 posts)I think a lot of people here like to turn a complex problem into a simple one by just saying "they're racist". It usually shows a lack of knowledge on a complex issue.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)They dislike foreigners of all colours
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)Looking ahead to the Referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union on June 23rd, which, if any, issues do you think will be very important to you in helping you decide which way to vote?
Answers from those voting 'leave':
52%: The number of immigrants coming into Britain
22%: Britain's ability to make its own laws
18%: The impact on Britain's economy
14%: Impact on public services/housing
10%: The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system
7%: Cost of EU membership fees
5%: The impact on British jobs
Others under 5%.
page 36: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)we have plenty of racists and a LOT of Little Englanders in some demographics.
Ohioblue22
(1,430 posts)Mean racism
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)So about that lack of knowledge on a complex issue?
Stellar
(5,644 posts)As far as Van Jones is concerned anyway, he is 'freaking out'.
He said that the people there became complacent because the 'Polls' all said that they would remain in the EU (I guess the same way that all the 'polls' said that Obama would lose to Romney). He's making a cry for GOTV. Don't be put to sleep by all the ignorant things that Trump says or does. Please vote this November folks!
https://www.facebook.com/vanjones/videos/vb.30042869909/10154278077469910/?type=2&theater
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)I have absolutely no doubt, having witnessed it day after day for weeks
Where the symptoms of the Tory cuts and neglect (austerity as you call it) were cited , they were blamed on immigration.
kcjohn1
(751 posts)US its around undocumented workers and fear of Muslims.
Muslims are an issue but play lesser role. The main issue is around EU migrant workers who can come to UK in unlimited quantity. You have Poles, Romanians, etc who could all migrant to UK because wages are higher in UK and there is less unemployment there vs mainland Europe. Because of the EU free movement rules, the British have no mechanism to control the flow of EU foreigners.
RandySF
(59,224 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)I saw more than a dozen interviews with different businessmen supporting Brexit because the Euro regulation stifled their ability to do business. A Trumpist opposition to immigration was clear in many of the poor and middle class who voted for it.
The left championed an opposition to austerity and neoliberalism.
BREXIT was a vote for both of those things. Considering that the two sides don't agree on anything, it will depend on who is in power. I suspect conservatives will be successful at keeping out immigrants and ending the tyranny of regulation that kept rampant capitalism at bay.
The left in Britain will find that they have been left out in the cold.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Person 2713
(3,263 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)I see a very strong populist element in the exit supporters. Working people have not been the greatest beneficiaries of being a part of the EU. The ruling classes have been the greatest beneficiaries and lots of voters acknowledged that yesterday.