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Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:26 AM

 

So, where were all the good guys with guns?

This was Texas. I would guess there several hundred guns in the shooting area (not counting police). So, why did none of these people use their lawful guns to stop these lawbreakers?

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Reply So, where were all the good guys with guns? (Original post)
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 OP
TeddyR Jul 2016 #1
Jerry442 Jul 2016 #4
TeddyR Jul 2016 #9
Jerry442 Jul 2016 #11
TeddyR Jul 2016 #13
Jerry442 Jul 2016 #15
Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #42
LanternWaste Jul 2016 #56
MattP Jul 2016 #26
madinmaryland Jul 2016 #29
TeddyR Jul 2016 #34
MillennialDem Jul 2016 #46
TeddyR Jul 2016 #51
Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #43
MillennialDem Jul 2016 #47
Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #49
MillennialDem Jul 2016 #50
Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #53
MillennialDem Jul 2016 #55
Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #57
MillennialDem Jul 2016 #60
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #100
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #103
PJMcK Jul 2016 #101
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #16
Jerry442 Jul 2016 #17
Straw Man Jul 2016 #30
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #8
Jerry442 Jul 2016 #14
frankieallen Jul 2016 #87
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #88
frankieallen Jul 2016 #90
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #91
frankieallen Jul 2016 #94
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #95
frankieallen Jul 2016 #96
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #104
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #107
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #113
treestar Jul 2016 #61
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #69
In_The_Wind Jul 2016 #2
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #10
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #105
GreatGazoo Jul 2016 #3
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #6
GreatGazoo Jul 2016 #19
rurallib Jul 2016 #5
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #7
Marengo Jul 2016 #12
Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #22
Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #45
greytdemocrat Jul 2016 #18
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #106
Dreamer Tatum Jul 2016 #20
clarice Jul 2016 #36
Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #21
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #27
Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #31
Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #48
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #108
backscatter712 Jul 2016 #23
clarice Jul 2016 #24
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #25
clarice Jul 2016 #35
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #39
clarice Jul 2016 #40
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #41
clarice Jul 2016 #59
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #109
uncle ray Jul 2016 #71
clarice Jul 2016 #86
krispos42 Jul 2016 #28
jonno99 Jul 2016 #32
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #38
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #110
inwiththenew Jul 2016 #33
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #37
beevul Jul 2016 #54
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #62
beevul Jul 2016 #70
friendly_iconoclast Jul 2016 #73
beevul Jul 2016 #74
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #76
beevul Jul 2016 #79
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #82
beevul Jul 2016 #83
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #84
beevul Jul 2016 #85
ileus Jul 2016 #44
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #66
sarisataka Jul 2016 #52
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #64
Marengo Jul 2016 #77
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #78
jmg257 Jul 2016 #58
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #63
arthritisR_US Jul 2016 #65
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #67
arthritisR_US Jul 2016 #68
Rex Jul 2016 #72
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #111
Skittles Jul 2016 #75
oneshooter Jul 2016 #89
Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #112
joshcryer Jul 2016 #80
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #81
arely staircase Jul 2016 #92
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #93
BKH70041 Jul 2016 #97
Kelvin Mace Jul 2016 #98
BKH70041 Jul 2016 #99
TwilightZone Jul 2016 #102

Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:43 AM

1. There are at least tens of thousands

 

Of defensive gun uses every year. But good guys with guns can't stop every crime that occurs. In this instance, the "good guys with guns" were the police who protected the civilians and eventually stopped the killers.

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:49 AM

4. The Good Guys With Guns scenario works every time...

...if you're Clayton Moore in front of a camera.

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Response to Jerry442 (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:57 AM

9. A little research

 

Will reveal stories almost daily of someone using a firearm to protect themselves or families from a criminal.

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:02 AM

11. There are 320 million people in this country.

Odds are, someone out there is successfully protecting themselves with, say, a radish. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

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Response to Jerry442 (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:04 AM

13. Perhaps

 

But guns save thousands of lives each year. Radishes probably fewer. And I think you'll find that most people in the US (according to polls anyway) support an individual right to own firearms.

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:06 AM

15. I guess I missed the press release from the NRA...

...where they're teaming with the CDC to do a massive public study that will resolve the issue once and for all.

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Response to Jerry442 (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:57 PM

42. The CDC did a study a couple of years ago

 

That included defensive gun use. It was directed by President Obama.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:24 PM

56. Helps to know the full story, rather than only that part which validates your bias.

 

The study analyzed Wilmington’s 127 recorded shootings in 2013, it did not address how the perpetrators acquired their weapons, or if attempts to limit access to firearms might lead to a dip in crime. Instead, the report simply outlined already well-established trends and risk factors.

In a proper epidemiological study, guns themselves would be treated as a risk factor for many types of violence or injury — just as mosquitoes would be treated as a risk factor for contracting malaria, for example. As it is, the agency was confined to rehashing social or environmental factors that have already been thoroughly studied by injury researchers.

Helps to know the full story, rather than only that part which validates your bias. Good luck!

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:01 PM

26. Guns save thousands

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:04 PM

29. Do you have any concrete evidence to support your assertion of saving thousands of lives. We do

know that guns kill well over 30,000 people a year.

TIA.

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:21 PM

34. See this discussion

 

For some statistics on defensive gun use: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172191826

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:02 PM

46. The problem with that study is it doesn't prove a gun was required to stop the

 

commission of a crime, let alone save a life (an even higher bar). Are you really suggesting there would be 700,000 murders per year if there were no guns? :lol:

Also, I'd need to see the data further, but many defensive gun uses are... quite ambiguous as whether they're justified or not. Is pulling a gun on someone during a road rage shouting match justified? Maybe, maybe not. If it's self reported, the gun owner will 99.999% say it was justified though. Who is going to admit "yeah, I pulled a gun, but it wasn't justified"?

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #46)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:13 PM

51. Oh, I agree

 

But I'm not sure you are going to find anything that can provide a concrete number for lives saved. If a gun owner shoots a home invader or scares off a rapist there's often no way to determine if the criminal intended to actually kill the victim. Sometimes you'll see stories where someone breaks into a home and shoots the home owner and is killed/wounded in return so that might indicate a life was saved.

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:58 PM

43. Of course 2/3 of those are suicides

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #43)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:04 PM

47. So they don't matter, right? Way to treat people with mental illness like depression and

 

PTSD.

Your only justification of "they were suicides" is that maybe people with depression or PTSD should have the right to kill themselves.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #47)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:05 PM

49. Nope, I agree with much better mental health services

 

But I am told that is just an NRA talking point

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:13 PM

50. Good, I'm glad you do. I just don't like when people brush suicides under

 

the rug as not mattering in the body count. Suicide is just as much a cause of body failure as old age or infection. Guns make by far the easiest and almost the most deadly vehicle for that though.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:17 PM

53. A friend of mine hung himself last month

 

I do not blame the rope. I do not care for the fact that you have to include suicides in gun violence statistics to make it look worse.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:23 PM

55. I'm sorry about your friend. But again, the thing is guns are the easiest way to

 

kill yourself. There's no way we could stop all suicides, I wouldn't be surprised if homo erectus and neanderthals didn't have rope and jumped off cliffs on purpose.

But again, guns make it so much easier. As someone who has been suicidal myself, I'd say guns are an even bigger step up in technology for suicides than they are for murders. Not that I'm psychopathic enough to do this, but I think outside of doing a mass killing, if I wanted to kill one person I could do it just as easily without a gun (maybe even easier) as I could with. With suicide though, the methods at easy disposal I did not take advantage of. The very deadly methods, I usually lost the will before I could do them (like jumping off a building).

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:32 PM

57. Suicides should not be conflated

 

With actual gun violence. It is done on purpose to deceive and I think you know that.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #57)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 02:22 PM

60. No, I really don't view that way (honest). If others do, I obviously can't speak for

 

the actual thoughts in their heads.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #57)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 04:02 PM

100. Sorry, no

it's a violent death, and it involves a gun. suicide by gun belongs in the tally of gun deaths.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #55)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:03 PM

103. So, how do the Japanese "outgun" us with their suicide rate?

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #53)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 04:11 PM

101. Very sorry to hear of the death of your friend

You're right to not blame your friend's state of mind on the rope. Having lost friends, I know your pain.

(I still don't like guns or nooses, for that matter.)

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:10 AM

16. And there are many more stories of guns

 

killing people accidentally or on purpose outside the context of "self-defense".

Last time I looked, the ratio was rather lopsided. If you have a gun, the chance you will harm yourself, or a family member, is much greater than the chance it will save them from a bad man.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:17 AM

17. Old saying: "Plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'"

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Response to Jerry442 (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:06 PM

30. Anecdotes and data.

Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey reports over 200,000 in a five-year period.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=197091

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:57 AM

8. This argument gets trotted out everytime there is a mass shooting

 

Good guys with guns who don't show up and stop this type of thing are no use to us. If this job falls to police, then we don't need any "good guys with guns" confusing the issue.

If ever there was a situation in a location tailor-made for some Rambo wannbe to be a hero, this was it, and yet none rose to the occasion.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:05 AM

14. Once again people are surprised...

...that you have to deal with Real Life on its own terms.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #8)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 03:50 PM

87. I don't know the exact details, but if the cops had a clear shot at this guy, they

 

would of shot him. I'm sure if there were civilians legally carrying a firearm, and they had a shot at the coward who was hell bent on killing white cops, they would have taken it.
As it was they ended up having to blow him up, so even the snipers couldn't get a clear shot.
So, I guess the point you are trying to make, is crap.

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Response to frankieallen (Reply #87)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 07:47 PM

88. Interesting.

 

He is a "coward" because he shot "innocent" people from a distance. But when people like him shoot people they are told are "guilty" from a distance, they are a "hero".

It says something that he was SO dangerous with a rifle, that he had to be killed with a bomb. So, next, we all need to have bombs, because only a good guy with a bomb can stop a bad gun with a gun.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #88)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 08:17 PM

90. Yes, he is a coward because he shot innocent people from a distance. Apparently you disagree?

 

"But when people like him shoot people they are told are "guilty" from a distance, they are a hero".

who specifically are you referring to? I think I know but I'd really like to see if you have the balls to really make that comparison.

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Response to frankieallen (Reply #90)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 08:19 PM

91. Let's see,

 

drone pilots come to mind.

Good enough for you? How about B-52 pilots?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #91)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 11:57 PM

94. No, it isn't good enough,

 

whom is it you are exactly referring to?
don't be a pus

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Response to frankieallen (Reply #94)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:36 AM

95. Ah, sexist language

 

I am suitably chastened.

If you don't see a drone pilot killing people they don't know because "orders" as morally questionable, I don't have time to teach you morality.

Good day.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #95)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 12:51 PM

96. morally questionable? I see you are backing off your original comparison.

 

have a nice day.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:13 PM

104. Your post needs correction: The bearing of arms is for self-defense, not for an LEO auxillary...

 

The "trotting out" seems to come most often from controller/banners who can't seem to distinguish between the two concepts. That some pro-2A people think carrying is some how help the police doesn't change that. My arms are for hunting and SD, not for a back bench to law enforcement, and that is how most of the nearly 100,000,000 armed civilians see the RKBA as well.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #104)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:25 PM

107. The the NRA and its ilk

 

need to STOP offering that excuse as to why access to weapons should not be restricted.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #107)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 06:01 PM

113. Who needs the NRA? My reasons are sufficient.

 

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 02:24 PM

61. And they don't always win, even

Good guys can have guns and still end up getting killed in the gunfight.

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Response to TeddyR (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 06:24 PM

69. I know of one 3 days ago

Alton Sterling used his gun to scare off an aggressive panhandler.

Who then called the cops, and Alton Sterling got killed.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:43 AM

2. If they are like me, sitting at home with their family, guns are unloaded and stored

with the ammo in a separate secure location.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:02 AM

10. Well, that would describe most people

 

whether they have guns or not. We weren't there. The question is about people who were there and did have guns.

I have three possible answers:

1) They were hiding somewhere safe because gun, or no gun, it was DANGEROUS out there, and that's a job for the police, so they will just stay where they are.

2) They started to take out their guns, and then in a moment of clarity realized that running around the street with a gun drawn would be a great way to get shot by the police (or some other "good guy with a gun"

3) Some of the suspects in custody were "good guys" with guns who got arrested because they were running around an active shooting scene waving a gun.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:19 PM

105. You missed the more likely reason "good guys" didn't fire back...

 

Because they see their arms for self-defense, not as police back-up. And they probably are quite willing to let the pros do their work and not get in the way. I would have done the same myself.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:49 AM

3. while I take your question as rhetorical

there were civilians with guns there and one offered to help police then his picture was tweeted out as being a suspect:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/08/during-deadly-dallas-shooting-confusion-swirled-around-armed-man-carrying-a-rifle/

Guns in duffle bags, open carry, etc only seems to have added to the confusion.

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:51 AM

6. But they keep telling us these things can be avoided

 

if only good guys had guns.

And yet, here we are. It happened despite Texas being awash with guns.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:38 AM

19. That's what I'm saying --more guns equals more death

It makes the job of police officer and other responders harder and more dangerous. Carrying a gun makes some people bolder and makes deadly conflict over common interactions more likely.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:51 AM

5. isn't that what the police are supposed to be?

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Response to rurallib (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:53 AM

7. The NRA and 2nd Amendment Absolutists

 

are not fighting for the police to have guns. They are fighting for EVERYONE to have them. Well, in Texas, damn near anyone can legally own a gun, and yet this happened and no "good guys with guns" stopped it.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 10:03 AM

12. This conceal carry permit holder would have fled the fuck out of there...

 

It's not my responsibility to perform law enforcement duties. My license gives me the option to conceal carry if I feel the need for the purpose of self-defense, not to spring into action as some some of auxiliary police officer.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:46 AM

22. Likewise.

 

My concealed handgun if for personal defense in an up-close situation. Even if I were inclined to try and intervene in a situation like this (which would be stupid), a handgun is so not the right tool for counter-sniper use.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:01 PM

45. Exactly right

 


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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:37 AM

18. Stupid thread IMHO.

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:23 PM

106. Yes, and we see it "trotted out" so often.

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:40 AM

20. The more relevant question would be

...given that there were, in our estimation, "several hundred guns" in private hands in the shooting area (which is laughable, by the way - you should get your information about places unknown to you from sources other than Merrie Melodies), why do these shootings not happen every day, all day?

If the premise is that open carry is so bad, why don't 4-5 cops or other people get slaughtered every day in Downtown Dallas?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:25 PM

36. This.nt

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:43 AM

21. You don't try to counter snipers with a concealed handgun.

 

That's suicide.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:03 PM

27. Do you seriously believe their were no

 

rifles of appropriate type in the area to deal with a sniper? In Texas? Besides, the NRA never differentiates about our needs for guns. All guns must be available to everyone, so the good guys with guns can stop the bad guys with guns. So, where were the good guys with guns?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:11 PM

31. In the area? Sure. In someone's possession at a location to actually get a shot? Doubtful.

 

There are reports of one guy carrying a rifle, the poor sod who was falsely pegged as a suspect. That guy handed his rifle, an AR-15, over to a police officer as soon as the shooting started (a wise move, as he is black and would likely have been shot by the police if he'd continued carrying).

Counter-sniper work is pretty specialized stuff. It's not a matter of someone with an appropriate (or otherwise) weapon electing to intervene and hey presto! Dead sniper!

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:04 PM

48. What, a person of color with an AR?

 

That can't be. I am glad after bring falsely accused of being the shooter, he did the safe thing with his empty weapon.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:38 PM

108. Plenty of rifles AND handguns. For self-defense, not a private police force, ye of little faith...

 

The only time people came to fore as your fanciful "Good Guy" Army was in the 1966 University of Texas shooting. Here, the police-issue .38 Specials were of no value, but student/faculty use of deer rifles suppressd the murderer after he got his several minutes of unresisted fame. Indirectly, the North Hollywood shootout was in part brought to an end by the police when they appropriated rifles ...from a local gun shop. These are exceptions to your strawman rule.

But even the CDC (yep, those guys) agree that there are at least tens of thousands of successful Self-Defense incidents each year. But your strawman keeps a-flaming.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:50 AM

23. Money quote is at 2:03...

?t=2m3s

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:52 AM

24. Lawbreakers? You meant murderers of course.nt

 

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Response to clarice (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 11:58 AM

25. Ok, where were all the good guys with guns

 

who we are told are needed to protect us from murderers?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:24 PM

35. Probably home with their families, getting ready for work the next day.nt

 

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Response to clarice (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:35 PM

39. So, no good guys with guns were to found in the middle of Dallas?

 

Sounds like poor planing.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #39)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:41 PM

40. And if there had been... you would be first one yelling...

 

about "Right Wing Militia" groups planning to insight violence. I see your game. Weak.

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Response to clarice (Reply #40)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:45 PM

41. You see something that is not there

 

If people are going to offer this argument as justification for virtually unrestricted access to guns then they have to explain why their strategy does not work when put to the test.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 02:05 PM

59. ok.nt

 

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Response to clarice (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:42 PM

109. Heh-heh. On the nose.

 

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Response to clarice (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 07:02 PM

71. it was nearly 9pm. who is out on the streets at that time but dangerous thugs? nt

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Response to uncle ray (Reply #71)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 03:38 PM

86. Good point Uncle Ray. nt

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:03 PM

28. I'm guessing, that to avoid ending up like that guy in Minnesota, they left them at home.

n/t

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:14 PM

32. Yep, you're right. Only the police should be trusted to carry guns. nt

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Response to jonno99 (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:33 PM

38. With appropriate accountability

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:46 PM

110. "Yes, we've had it so many times before." ( Apologies to Ed McMahon)

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:20 PM

33. Seems like a great way to end up dead

Either by the police mistaking you for a hostile actor or the gunman shooting you with a better weapon than anybody could reasonably carry.

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Response to inwiththenew (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:32 PM

37. Oh, I agree,

 

but the NRA and their supporters keep talking about this trope. So, it is only fair they tell me why they didn't stop this. If there was ever a state where everyone and their dog has a gun, it is Texas.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:22 PM

54. Right after you explain why the laws didn't prevent it. N/T

 

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Response to beevul (Reply #54)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 05:09 PM

62. The "laws" such as they are,

 

allow practically anyone to get a dangerous military-grade weapon with laughable ease.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #62)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 06:56 PM

70. Do they also allow murder?

 

LOL@ 'military grade'.

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Response to beevul (Reply #70)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 07:12 PM

73. This is a subject in which the ignorant are often proud of their ignorance

 

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #73)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 07:14 PM

74. Habitually. N/T

 

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Response to beevul (Reply #70)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 08:43 PM

76. Does the law allow murder?

 

Hmmm... Let me ask Treyvon Martin? Oh, wait...

How about any of the 1,134 men killed by the police in 2015? How many were punished when they had clearly crossed the line?

So, yes, the law allows murder as long as the right people kill the right people.

Military grade is funny?

The SKS is a Soviet semi-automatic carbine chambered for the 7.62×39mm round, designed in 1943 by Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov. Its complete designation, SKS-45, is an initialism for Samozaryadnyj Karabin sistemy Simonova, 1945

The 7.62x39mm round was designed by the Soviets for use in combat and has a muzzle velocity between 2100 and 2900 feet per second. So, yeah, military grade.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #76)

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 03:27 AM

79. Yes. 'Military grade' is funny.

 



Yes. 'Military grade' is funny.


The 7.62x39mm round was designed by the Soviets for use in combat and has a muzzle velocity between 2100 and 2900 feet per second. So, yeah, military grade.


The 7.62 x 39 is the ballistic equivalent of the 30.30 - one of the most common deer calibers in existence.

'Military grade' is meaningless hyperbole, intended to lead the reader to a less than factual conclusion.

But then, you and everyone else that repeat it as if it has meaning already knew that.


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Response to beevul (Reply #79)

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 01:37 PM

82. Equivalent, to a round normally fired by a bolt-action rifle.

 

Fine, I will allow such weapons, but only bolt-actions. No more semi-auto weapons.

But, I know it won't fly with the gun purists. In the end it comes down this absolute truth, well articulated by the Atrios:

Legal guns (including open carry, concealed carry, stand your ground, etc.) exist so that white people can enact their vigilante fantasies involving "protecting" themselves from black people.

Whatever the law says, it is illegal for black people to own and possess guns, and possession is proof of an imminent threat that justifies execution by law enforcement or any white person.


The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to protect slave owners from a slave uprising. We just live with a variation of that justification today.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #82)

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 02:28 PM

83. So what?

 

Equivalent, to a round normally fired by a bolt-action rifle.


So what? Oh, you want to move the goalposts, I get it.

Fine, I will allow such weapons, but only bolt-actions. No more semi-auto weapons.


Were you planning on confiscating them yourself?

Sorry, you and the anti-gun bunch aren't going to outlaw semi-auto weapons or technology.

That you desire to take citizen ownable firearm technology back into the 1800s says about all that needs saying about your viewpoint: It is extremist and well outside the mainstream in America. Even here on DU which is far left of mainstream America you get lots of opposition.


The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to protect slave owners from a slave uprising. We just live with a variation of that justification today.


This is an opinion, and one which is well disconnected from reality.

The point of the 2a can be found in the preamble to the bill of rights:

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution


http://www.billofrights.org/

To restrict government, just like amendment 1, amendment 3, amendment 4, and so on.

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Response to beevul (Reply #83)

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 02:30 PM

84. I stand by my views

 

Good day.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #84)

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 02:31 PM

85. Of course you do.

 

Good day.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 12:58 PM

44. I thought we whined when "good guys with guns" show up at protests?

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Response to ileus (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 05:25 PM

66. How do I tell the difference between a "good guy with a gun" and

 

a deranged killer with a gun before he starts shooting? Once he starts shooting, it would be a little late.

But again, this dodges the question, Texas is overloaded with guns. I would guess that excluding the police there were dozens, if not hundreds, of guns within a six block radius of the "bad guy with a gun". Yet, it was the police, using a bomb, who took the guy down.

If "good guys with guns" are not going to do their job, why let them have guns?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:16 PM

52. Do you want every person

With a gun to intervene in an active situation or should they continue leaving its to the paid professionals?


And if there were several hundred armed people there, how come it didn't devolve into the mass shoot out of everyone shooting at everybody as we've been promised would happen in such a situation?

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #52)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 05:18 PM

64. Kind of my point about the stupidity of the argument.

 

If we are going to leave this to the trained professionals, then we can make their job a bit easier by putting some common sense rules in place prohibiting certain types of weapons, ammunition, and magazines from being legal to own, and certain types of people from legally possessing in the first place.

We could also make our society safer.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #64)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 08:59 PM

77. What types of people would you prohibit?

 

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Response to Marengo (Reply #77)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 09:13 PM

78. The mentally ill,

 

convicted felons, spouse abusers, child abusers, rapists, you know, the usual sorts we believe really shouldn't have access to firearms. Oh, and anyone who has ever mishandled a firearm, like allowed children access to them, "accidentally" shot themselves, or others while "cleaning" their gun.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 01:36 PM

58. I think your confusion lies in thinking so many lawful gun owners are "Rambo wanna-be heroes".

Seems most Rambo wanna-bes are already LE (or military).

I don't know too many civilian gun owners who's notion it is they arm themselves to save the world.
It is actually frowned upon as not their responsibility, or even capability.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 05:15 PM

63. However, it is the argument offered against restricting

 

the type of weapons people can buy, the type of ammunition, the capacity of magazines and the types of people who should be prohibited from buying them.

So again, my question is valid. Why didn't the "good guys with guns" stop the "bad guys with guns"? Why did the police have to resort to a bomb in order to stop a single bad guy with a gun? They police chief said that it would have been too dangerous to use anything short of a bomb, so what next? The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a bomb, so let's legalize bombs?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 05:22 PM

65. Running to WalMart...

they've run out of Depends...

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Response to arthritisR_US (Reply #65)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 05:30 PM

67. That was #1 on my list of reasons

 

The others were:

#2 - It dawned on them that running around at night waving a gun in front of armed and scared police might be suicidal.

#3 - Other "good guys with guns" might think they were a "bad guy with a gun".

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #67)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 06:19 PM

68. Bingo! nt

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 07:04 PM

72. You are a good guy with a gun, until that nanosecond you decide to become a bad guy with a gun.

 

And people just don't want to do anything about it, those that pretend or fantasize about being 'the hero' and getting lavished with attention have their mind made up.

EVERYONE gets a gun!

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Response to Rex (Reply #72)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:52 PM

111. Ah, the Magic Force Field theory again.

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jul 8, 2016, 08:01 PM

75. crapping their pants

they are COWARDS

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Response to Skittles (Reply #75)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 08:14 PM

89. Who are cowards?

PLEASE POINT THEM OUT FOR US.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #75)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 05:57 PM

112. Penis-talk gives way to self-defacation. Dialog improves, but it doesn't clear the atmosphere!

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 03:59 AM

80. It was an ambush.

The cops even thought there were several shooters.

It was well planned in advance by someone familiar with those tactics (army guy).

You cannot account for a pre-planned event, it is impossible. Similar questions were asked about the Orlando shootings and the result is the same.

If someone plans to become a mass murderer, they will likely succeed more often than not, and there's little anyone can do about it.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #80)

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 01:29 PM

81. Again, despite these events being planned

 

the NRA and its supporters tell me "more guns", all it takes is good guy with a gun, ect. So, if you are saying that it is impossible in these instances, then the argument is invalid and we need to start cracking down on who can own guns and what types can be owned.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 09:00 PM

92. Being detained on suspicion.

20 to 30 protestors with rifles had to be vetted as possible shooters when the shit hit the fan.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #92)

Sun Jul 10, 2016, 09:19 PM

93. Again, that would kind of render the argument

 

for unfettered access to guns invalid. In a situation such as this, who do the police shoot?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 12:54 PM

97. They don't hang out at BLM events.

What the BLMers have to say doesn't interest them.

Well, you asked.

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Response to BKH70041 (Reply #97)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 01:30 PM

98. It's Texas

 

They are hanging out doing other things and are armed to the teeth. I would think they would find time in their busy schedule to run out and stop a "bad guy with a gun"

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #98)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 01:37 PM

99. Nah!

Not their part of town.

Maybe BLM could arrange a protest in Midland or Lubbock or something.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #98)

Mon Jul 11, 2016, 04:39 PM

102. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone in Texas is armed to the teeth.

The Open Carry nuts are relatively few, and many TX businesses (several hundred, at last count) prohibit open carry. Many more prohibit CC, as well. So, not everyone wanders around with their guns, hidden or not.

That being said, there were more than likely some in the area at the time. As one noted in a TV interview, they did what everyone else did - ran for their lives.

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