Papal misogyny is forever, says Pope Francis.

[GeorgeGist]

Pope says he believes ban on female priests is forever

Pope Francis said on Tuesday he believes the Roman Catholic Church's ban on women becoming priests is forever and will never be changed, in some of his most definitive remarks on the issue.

He was speaking aboard a plane taking him back to Rome from Sweden, in the freewheeling news conference with reporters that has become a tradition of his return flights from trips abroad.

A Swedish female reporter noted that the head of the Lutheran Church who welcomed him in Sweden was a woman, and then asked if he thought the Catholic Church could allow women to be ordained as ministers in coming decades.

"St. Pope John Paul II had the last clear word on this and it stands, this stands," Francis said.

more at: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-women-idUSKBN12W4L7?il=0

[Wounded Bear]

1. Not surprising...

He's been kind of progressive on some issues, but he's still a religious conservative at his core.

[Drahthaardogs]

32. The Pope cannot change this rule

Even if he wants to.

[lindysalsagal]

38. Like, the "only-one-living-pope-at-a-time" rule? SOMEBODY changed that one.

It's all total BS, delusional, fairy tale, sanctified politics. Nothing more.

You don't need a pope if you wake up to the fact that there is no "god" and no need of a religion to worship him.

And as long as the pope has to be a him, "god" does, too.

Keep your fairy tales all hating the same gender. Simpler that way.

[Drahthaardogs]

52. Your post really makes no sense

Because your argument is that he CAN do it, not because it is within his purview as Pope, but because it is a fairy tail.

If you have a salient point, make it. Otherwise....

[niyad]

2. so pope photo op admits that the church will never treat women as full human beings.

and we are supposed to have nice things to say about him, and that organization. . . .why?

[apcalc]

7. I agree. Patriarchy for patriarchy's sake. Screw that.

[trotsky]

16. If you ever figure that one out, let me know. n/t

[niyad]

17. I hope that you are not holding your breath

[trotsky]

30. Ha.

I know that merely asking the question is enough to get one branded an "anti-religious bigot."

[niyad]

3. FU frankie

[50 Shades Of Blue]

4. +1!

[malaise]

21. +one more n/t

[MADem]

6. NEVER BE CHANGED...for now, anyway.

But later? Who is he to judge, maybe?


I get the feeling he doesn't want to be murdered in his sleep. He's not going to make sweeping changes by decree; his schtick is to change hearts and minds, get rid of wingnut deadwood, and ease into change.

Saying "St. Pope John Paul II had the last clear word on this and it stands, this stands," is not the same as saying "It stands and will never be changed." He's choosing those words carefully for a reason.

The piece goes on to say:

The reporter then pressed the pope, asking: "But forever, forever? Never, never?

Francis responded: "If we read carefully the declaration by St. John Paul II, it is going in that direction."

Francis has previously said that the door to women's ordination is closed, but proponents of a female priesthood are hoping that a future pope might overturn the decision, particularly because of the shortage of priests around the world.

The Catholic Church teaches that women cannot be ordained priests because Jesus willingly chose only men as his apostles. Those calling for women priests say he was only following the norms of his time.

In August, Francis set up a commission to study the role of women deacons in early Christianity, raising hopes among equality campaigners that women could one day have a greater say in the 1.2 billion-member Church.

"Going in that direction?" I mean, how mealy-mouthed! If he really, truly meant "NO!!!!!! NEVER!!!!!" I should think he would have said the Papal equivalent of "Fuck no" and moved on.

He's parsing because he's not stupid and he doesn't want to die before his time. He knows there's only so far he can go so long as the reactionary right wing of the church holds influence. He's already pushed them to apoplexy, but they can't do a thing because there's precedent for his pronouncements (like, the original purpose of his organization).

This guy is a socialist revolutionary--the real deal in terms of "Feed/clothe/care for the poor/elderly/children" but he's not a moron, either.

[niyad]

9. tell me that again when he has apologized for the magdalene laundries and the way

the church has covered up for pedophile priests.

[MADem]

28. Didn't he do that? More than once, too?

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/pope_francis_apologizes_for_pedophile_priests


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/world/europe/pope-francis-issues-apology-for-scandals-at-vatican.html?_r=0


The first thing he did as Pope was say, basically, that he meant it: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pope-francis-catholic-church-punish-pedophile-priests-article-1.1308895

As an institution, those Catholics have a ton of baggage, but this guy--given that he is acting within a number of constraints on his behavior that people who live in the secular world just aren't swayed by--has been open about that matter and unequivocally expressed his disgust--far more than the last two, who paid out money hand over fist but were slow to say "This sucks!" and even slower to identify/publicly acknowledge/fire perpetrators.

I don't think he can be faulted for the way he has addressed that issue after coming into the leadership of, essentially, a fucked up organization. You can fault the organization for its rules, but I think he has been forward leaning with regard to this specific issue.

The wonderful thing about religion is that it is optional if you live in a free society. People who don't want to follow this church shouldn't, and either sit with the secularists or find another place to go on Sunday.

[niyad]

40. like this??? and I notice that your did not mention anything about the magdalene laundries.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/pope-francis-scraps-abuse-tribunal-bishops-who-cover-pedophile-priests-n585841

[MADem]

48. Stop moving the goalposts--that is never a good look and makes it appear

that you're simply interested in "internet fighting" and not discussing an issue.

You claimed he did not apologize. I provided three instances (there are more, by the way) where he did exactly that.

Now, if you are dissatisfied with his conduct in punishing wrongdoers, you can bring that up as a separate issue, but don't try to play that his scrapping a tribunal somehow erases his many apologies. If you read YOUR OWN link, the tribunal process was scrapped because the ABUSE SURVIVORS thought it sucked. That would appear to contradict your assertion that the guy is not being responsive:

But the new law was immediately criticized by survivors of abuse as essentially window dressing since there were already ways to investigate and dismiss bishops for wrongdoing — they were just rarely used against bishops who failed to protect their flocks from pedophiles.

....

"A 'process' is helpful only if it's used often enough to deter wrongdoing. We doubt this one will be," SNAP's David Clohessy said.

As for the Magdalene laundries, I guess you missed the Irish abuse survivors in the first links I offered, above. They were included in his apologies--he didn't say "I apologize for all victims of abuse--except those Irish girls." I mean, come on--stop nitpicking.

Perhaps, too, you do not realize that those hellholes would never have been able to be perpetuated without the consent of, and assistance of, the GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND, which played a huge role in helping those nuns sell those children off to American, British and Australian Catholic families and who ALLOWED the abuse to happen under their noses, because they were of the mind that "those sorts of girls got what they deserved." They made it easy for the children to get passports, and the right sorts of adoptive parents (the three C's: Cash, Caucasian, Catholic) to come in and out of the country and claim their little prizes. The nuns didn't go out in the streets hunting down pregnant teens, the government delivered those young women to those nuns, it was a business deal, a symbiotic relationship, and it took longer for the government to apologize than it did the Pope. So there's that, too.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/19/ireland-apologises-slave-labour-magdalene-laundries


It is quite apparent that you hold no affection for this religion or its institutions, and you harbor a great deal of vitriol towards them for their many crimes and sins, which can't be good for your state of mind --I'd urge you to avoid them and not support them or their goals in any way. Choose a path that satisfies. Life is short, and you're not going to get any vengeance.

Living well is the best revenge, anyway.

[MineralMan]

10. This is not surprising.

The male-only RCC hierarchy will never budge on that point. It simply will not.

[OnDoutside]

19. In time it will, but first, Married Priests. Here in Ireland the average age of a Priest is late 50s

and they're only getting half a dozen or so studying to become priests every year. It's not sustainable. Already and ironically, after over 100 years of Irish priests going on the Missions to Africa, there are now African Priests coming to parishes here. In some of the more remote areas, you might have one priest covering a number of churches.

[Drahthaardogs]

33. I don't see how it can....unless

It is considered Sacred Tradition handed down from Jesus. As such, no Pope has the authority to alter Jesus teachings.

Really, it would take an archeological discovery that Mary Magdalene was an Apostle ( not just a disciple) and the Church would have to validate the discovery. Then we could a woman priest but not before

[MADem]

49. They might already have that "proof" stuffed in a corner of the Vatican library.

It would upend things, certainly, but they'll eventually get to the point where there are no men willing to do the work--at that point, they'll have to dig out that "Oh yeah....this thing...why look what we JUST FOUND!!! Who KNEW????" LOL....

[BigDemVoter]

11. I guess that means the Roman Catholic Church will become extinct

unless they change their minds about marriage.

[niyad]

13. no great loss

[OnDoutside]

20. In your opinion.

[niyad]

23. an organization that refuses to recognize half the people of the world as full human beings?

as I said, no great loss. with its history of conquest, empire-building, enslavement, torture, slavery, extermination, etc. (crusades, burning times, colonialism, inquisition, magdalene laundries, pedophile priests, etc) nothing one can say about whatever "good" this patriarchal, misogynistic organization does outweighs its evils.

[OnDoutside]

31. No, it just says they can't become priests. It will change eventually, but the first hurdle is

Married Priests. And for all the history of conquest, there are a lot of positives too. I don't like the conservatives within the church, but it is churlish to give all the bad aspects without acknowledging the very many good people in the church who've continually strived for social justice, as well as the positive aspects the RC church has contributed over 2000 years. There's good and bad in organisations, look at the contrasting racism in the Republican and Democratic Parties, pre and post 1964. Is the Democratic Party irredeemable because of their some of the things in their past ? No, of course not. There's good and bad everywhere, and it's best to keep a sense of perspective.

[niyad]

41. see post 15.

[OnDoutside]

42. see post 20

[niyad]

43. I did, and my answer still holds. this patriarchal, misogynistic organization can go the way

of the t-rex.

[OnDoutside]

45. But it won't. The one thing about it, if you look over the last 2000 years, it does change. Slowly,

but it does change.

Having been educated by the Christian Brothers, I've seen one or two who were sadistic, some who were alcoholics, but the majority were kind decent people.

[niyad]

47. so what? the organization is patriarchal, misogynistic, and hates women? changes slowly?

TWO THOUSAND YEARS of this shit??? you can think as you like. we know how the church sees women, and we don't have time to wait for this hidebound woman-hating bunch to "change slowly". try peddling that "changing slowly" crap to a woman who does not receive the care she needs at a catholic hospital. or maybe her family when she dies from that lack of woman-care.

[Skittles]

51. kind, decent people do not practice misgoyny

[Freddie]

14. Lots in the news lately

About this historic "accord" and agreements between the Lutherans and Catholics. As an ELCA lay leader I think this is great but--the minute we are expected to go backwards on female clergy, LGBT rights/respect or reproductive rights, I will no longer be Lutheran.

[MADem]

50. You'll not have to backpedal--if anything, your crew will drag their crew forward.

With help from other liturgical groups who have a loose confederacy with Rome. Keep leading by example!

[niyad]

15. let us remember that the catholilc church owns 1 in 6 hospitals around the country,

where women do NOT receive full health care. this statement shows that that will not be changing any time soon.

[Orrex]

18. As always...

The popester has a lot to say about matters over which he has no power, such as global warming, species extinction, deforestation, income inequality, etc., so he gets lots of praise for his progressive views.

Of course, he doesn't do jack shit about issues over which he has direct and exclusive control, so at the end of the day he's revealed as another poser in service to centuries-old repressive dogma.

[niyad]

24. exactly!!

[WinkyDink]

22. People are free to become Protestant, then.

[niyad]

25. or free to ignore all patriarchal, misogynistic belief systems entirely.

but, alas, when that damned church controls such a large percentage of our health care, whether we are believers or no, I say FUCK THEM and their misogynistic BS

[Skittles]

35. YES

WHY do women put up with this garbage - UGH

[milestogo]

26. Celibacy and the ban on female priests will end when

they can't find enough males to do the work. Then they'll be begging.

[MADem]

29. There it is!!

And slowly but surely, as women become indispensable, they'll take over the organization, mend it, make it better, stronger, more useful ... and likely even give some of those ridiculous costumes a 21st century makeover! LOL!

[milestogo]

34. Till then the priests have job security grounded in metaphysics.

[maxsolomon]

36. precisely - who enters the priesthood nowadays?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_shortage_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

[trotsky]

37. Well that's just it - the problem is kind of taking care of itself.

The "priest shortage" is being somewhat alleviated by the fact that churches are having to close. At least here in the USA, the RCC is shrinking.

[milestogo]

39. I've heard that its been difficult to recruit priests in Latin America

because celibacy is really antithetical to the culture. So they have a lot of Anglo priests, but its hard to recruit priests everywhere.

[malaise]

27. I'm shocked I tell you

NOT

[Ilsa]

44. So if a pope lost his genitals,

He'd still be pope? It's a genetic thing? Because there might be some XY folks out there who identify as female that might make excellent popes. But they don't have male genetals.

But I suspect they are too smart to get embroiled in this mess.

[BooScout]

46. One of the many reasons...

That I have no tolerance for organized religion. It has held women back and down for thousands of years.

[davidn3600]

53. How many religions allow women in their upper ranks?

Christianity doesn't. Islam and Judaism don't either.

And I know there may be an offshoot here or there that do. But I'm talking about the religion as a whole. For the most part, the Abrahamic religions don't value women in their high ranks. And not much is going to change with that because it's based on very old teachings.

[Freddie]

54. The national Bishop of the ELCA is Rev. Elizabeth Eaton

That is the "irony" of the headlines, the Pope telling the female leader of the denomination that is trying to find common ground with the RCC that his church will never accept a woman in that role.
From what I'm reading, the 2 groups are trying to patch over centuries of differences with theological issues (such as allowing Lutherans to take communion in a Catholic Church) but deliberately not addressing differences that have occurred fairly recently such as female clergy.

[TheFrenchRazor]

55. it ain't just papal, but yes. nt