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Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:34 PM

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This message was self-deleted by its author (kimbutgar) on Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:39 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
kimbutgar Nov 2016 OP
Squinch Nov 2016 #1
eppur_se_muova Nov 2016 #2
SHRED Nov 2016 #3
mcar Nov 2016 #4
regnaD kciN Nov 2016 #5
kimbutgar Nov 2016 #9
nashville_brook Nov 2016 #15
juxtaposed Nov 2016 #10
NYC Liberal Nov 2016 #28
Mosby Nov 2016 #39
NYC Liberal Nov 2016 #40
Jake Stern Nov 2016 #6
yardwork Nov 2016 #14
Hekate Nov 2016 #19
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Nov 2016 #30
Jake Stern Nov 2016 #38
superpatriotman Nov 2016 #7
uppityperson Nov 2016 #8
Sherman A1 Nov 2016 #11
Behind the Aegis Nov 2016 #12
.99center Nov 2016 #13
cpwm17 Nov 2016 #16
Lithos Nov 2016 #17
DirkGently Nov 2016 #18
dae Nov 2016 #23
DirkGently Nov 2016 #27
suffragette Nov 2016 #37
drmeow Nov 2016 #20
dae Nov 2016 #24
LongTomH Nov 2016 #21
Lithos Nov 2016 #22
Liberal In Texas Nov 2016 #25
Grey Lemercier Nov 2016 #34
Lithos Nov 2016 #35
moondust Nov 2016 #26
kimbutgar Nov 2016 #29
Liberty Belle Nov 2016 #31
Miles Archer Nov 2016 #32
marlakay Nov 2016 #42
Grey Lemercier Nov 2016 #33
Arazi Nov 2016 #36
Grey Lemercier Nov 2016 #41
BainsBane Sep 2017 #43
NurseJackie Sep 2017 #44

Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:38 PM

1. Oh, snap! Little JPR finally got the recognition they crave!

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:39 PM

2. JPR? Ouch. nt

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:39 PM

3. Truthdig?

 

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:40 PM

4. JPR!

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:41 PM

5. Some seem to fit

…but the notion of Counterpunch or TruthDig is ludicrous.

In fact, there are reasons to be highly skeptical about "PropOrNot"'s own organization.

http://www.alternet.org/media/washington-post-promotes-shadowy-website-accuses-200-publications-russian-propaganda-plants

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:48 PM

9. It's come to the point that now anything we read on the internet could be fake

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Response to kimbutgar (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:23 PM

15. that's generally what happens during

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:49 PM

10. agree, seems a little info wars onto itself.

 

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:58 PM

28. Counterpunch - Russian propaganda or not - is a shit website.

Here's them defending Pol Pot:
The Pol Pot the Cambodians remember was not a tyrant, but a great patriot and nationalist, a lover of native culture and native way of life. He was brought up in royal palace circles; his aunt was a concubine of the previous king. He studied in Paris, but instead of making money and a career, he returned home, and spent a few years dwelling with forest tribes to learn from the peasants. He felt compassion for the ordinary village people who were ripped off on a daily basis by the city folk, the comprador parasites. He built an army to defend the countryside from these power-wielding robbers. Pol Pot, a monkish man of simple needs, did not seek wealth, fame or power for himself. He had one great ambition: to terminate the failing colonial capitalism in Cambodia, return to village tradition, and from there, to build a new country from scratch.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/09/18/pol-pot-revisited/

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #28)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 04:38 PM

39. The article you posted was written by a well known Antisemite

Who also happens to work for Wikileaks and (probably) the Russians.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/jan/31/wikileaks-holocaust-denier-handled-moscow-cables
https://20committee.com/2013/07/06/wikileaks-snowden-and-the-belarus-connection/

Counterpunch also publishes other Antisemites like Allison Weir and Franklin Lamb.

They have no standards whatsoever.


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Response to Mosby (Reply #39)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 04:45 PM

40. Yep. Deplorable.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:42 PM

6. "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"

McCarthy has risen again.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:03 PM

14. Nice try.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:20 PM

19. The US has just had its presidential election provably hacked/damaged by Russians...

The Soviet Union is dead. Long live Mother Russia.

But you can go on being too clever by half with references to the Bad Old Days of the Cold War, while the reality of the Cyber War sinks in.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 12:37 AM

30. Russia is not Communist these days

Do try to keep up with current events please.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Reply #30)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 04:16 PM

38. Wasn't trying to say Russia is still Communist

I was mocking the McCarthyesque nature of this list.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:45 PM

7. I frequented a few of these during the dark Bush years

But WRH disappointed me the most.

You could almost pinpoint the date the webmaster was compromised.

Now it's all anti- Hillary, global warming denial, etc.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:48 PM

8. ""An Initial Set of Sites That Reliably Echo Russian Propaganda"

Please note that our criteria are behavioral. That means the characteristics of the propaganda outlets we identify are motivation-agnostic. For purposes of this definition it does not matter whether the sites listed here are being knowingly directed and paid by Russian intelligence officers, or whether they even knew they were echoing Russian propaganda at any particular point: If they meet these criteria, they are at the very least acting as bona-fide "useful idiots" of the Russian intelligence services, and are worthy of further scrutiny.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:55 PM

11. And

This site says so, it must be true..... Yawn

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:55 PM

12. A who's who of anti-Semitic sites.

A few of the sites at also very racist. I am not surprised by any of the named sites. It looks more like it is based on particular habits and possible a few authors (without calling them out directly). I am sure some will whine about the choices, but it shows the stretch mad and that the "target" group isn't one side or the other, just like propaganda.

Rense is a rabidly anti-Semitic site with ties to white "nationalism", just like "What Really Happened". The other interesting "factor" is the ties between the various sites by ownership and 'primary' authors/writers.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:01 PM

13. WOAH!

Avoid the pizza threads, borderline child porn.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:27 PM

16. This looks more like creative speculation

 

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:01 PM

17. Do not forget this one

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:01 PM

18. Welcome to the New McCarthyism.

Where everyone who disagrees is a Commie. Oh wait, no a hippie. No wait, RUSSIAN.

There's quite an interesting discussion going on Twitter at the moment about the facts that

1. Sites like Counterpunch, TruthDig, and TruthOut are nowhere near "Russian Propaganda."

2. The "PropOrNot" group was permitted to remain anonymous by WaPo, citing -- and I kid you not -- "vast legions of skilled Russian hackers waiting to pounce." (paraphrase).

3. PropOrNot is proposing a browser plug-in to highlight and presumably filter out these sites, which in many cases are outlets outstanding, credible liberal voices.

4. No examples whatever were given of any "Russian propaganda" forwarded by any of these sites. Instead, examples of themes like questions about Hillary Clinton's health problems, which did not come from any of the listed sites, were used.

5. Many of the "allies" cited on the anonymous PropOrNot group's site apparently no nothing about them, including Snopes.com.

https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/802251087696760832

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:33 PM

23. Twitter was a flutter with WaPo article then an article

accuses PropOrNot as being a U.S. government backed site. I find it curious they concentrated on left leaning sites many of which have been around 10-15 years.

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Response to dae (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:51 PM

27. Saw that. Alternet also has a piece up re: gov't connections.

Washington Post Promotes Shadowy Website That Accuses 200 Publications of Being Russian Propaganda Plants
The anonymous PropOrNot is calling for investigations of websites including Wikileaks and major progressive publications.

Despite the Washington Post’s charitable description of PropOrNot as a group of independent-minded researchers dedicated to protecting the integrity of American democracy, the shadowy group bears many of the qualities of the red enemies it claims to be battling. In addition to its blacklist of Russian dupes, it lists a collection of outlets funded by the U.S. State Department, NATO and assorted tech and weapons companies as “allies.” PropOrNot’s methodology is so shabby it is able to peg widely read outlets like Naked Capitalism, a leading left-wing financial news blog, as Russian propaganda operations.

(snip)

Although PropOrNot’s hidden authors claim, “we do not reach our conclusions lightly,” the group’s methodology leaves more than enough room to smear an outlet on political grounds. Among the criteria PropOrNot identifies as clear signs of Russian propaganda are, “Support for policies like Brexit, and the breakup of the EU and Eurozone” and, “Opposition to Ukrainian resistance to Russia and Syrian resistance to Assad.”

By these standards, any outlet that raises the alarm about the considerable presence of extreme right-wing elements among the post-Maidan Ukrainian government or that questions the Western- and Saudi-funded campaign for regime change in Syria can be designated a Russia dupe or a paid agent of the FSB. Indeed, while admitting that they have no idea whether any of the outlets they blacklisted are being paid by Russian intelligence or are even aware they are spreading Russian propaganda, PropOrNot’s authors concluded that any outlets that have met their highly politicized criteria “have effectively become tools of the Russian intelligence services, and are worthy of further investigation.”



http://www.alternet.org/media/washington-post-promotes-shadowy-website-accuses-200-publications-russian-propaganda-plants

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 02:09 PM

37. So an anonymous site wants to repress other websites, incl. Truth-out, and some people

Lap this up because it claims the sites promote Russian propaganda, even though they don't even bother with proving their allegations?

It's a sad day when anyone on DU would support this.

Thank you for your excellent post, Dirk.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:32 PM

20. I don't trust this site

I'd like a little more information on how they decided on their list of 200 sites plus a little bit of evidence before I accept that list.

They state, "Please note that our criteria are behavioral" which is a broken link.

"If they meet these criteria, they are at the very least acting as bona-fide "useful idiots" of the Russian intelligence services, and are worthy of further scrutiny." - by that criteria every news source that picked up a fake story and ran with it.

Their example (http://www.propornot.com/2016/10/an-example-of-manual-propaganda_31.html) is such an extreme case that it doesn't help increase my trust.


Updating - I'm not the only one: http://www.alternet.org/media/washington-post-promotes-shadowy-website-accuses-200-publications-russian-propaganda-plants

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Response to drmeow (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:33 PM

24. Ditto.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:38 PM

21. Maybe the answer is to keep your critical thinking faculties active and factcheck stories.......

........before sharing. I admit I need to take my own advice more.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:26 PM

22. Add. Alex Jones

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Response to Lithos (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:41 PM

25. Rense and Alex Jones/Prison Planet are the same thing.

Alex has been using Rense for years. Rense is nothing but a liar. And Alex is completely crazy.

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Response to Liberal In Texas (Reply #25)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 07:19 AM

34. Rense and Jones HATE each other. Deffo not the same.

 

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Response to Liberal In Texas (Reply #25)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 01:21 PM

35. Jeff Rense and Alex Jones do not like each other

Last edited Sat Nov 26, 2016, 08:51 PM - Edit history (1)

Alex Jone's websites are Infowars.com and PrisonPlanet.com, he has a radio show which you can listen to online or on several radio stations (including KLBJ-AM here). Infowars is a slick designed to support his radio station, PP is a tabloid layout designed more for the conspiracy set. Both have the same articles.

I used to maintain a reference list for Moderators on DU2, while it's a few years out of date, I can post it still if people want though it won't have all of the false-front Facebook pages, YouTube channels and twitter accounts.

However, to add to this list some of the offshoot sites:

www.therightstuff.biz
www.theoccidentalobserver.net
www.alternative-right.blogspot.com
www.radixjournal.com
www.truedollarjournal.blogspot.com
www.youtube.com/user/AustralianRealist
www.occidentaldissent.com/
www.amren.com
www.vdare.com
www.libertygb.org.uk
www.counter-currents.com
www.dissidentright.com
Les Brigandes: www.youtube.com/channel/UCQsPTAuUF2EMe8y7gnNtQWA/videos?nohtml5=False
www.buchanan.org/blog/
www.atlanticcenturion.wordpress.com
newobserveronline.com/
www.amerika.org/blogs/
newobserveronline.com/
DailyNewsPosts.info
YoungCons.com
ConservativeDailyPost.com
RT.com
Freedomsfinalstand.com
ActiveOpinion.com
NewsNinja2012.com

Other sites which have a strong Alt-Right presence include 4Chan and 8Chan, so I would be rather suspicious of any posting from there. 8Chan's admins have a rather strong affinity towards StormFront, with the founder publishing an article about eugenics.

L-

On edit:

There is this handy list:

http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 12:35 AM

29. This is the thing I love about Du

You pointed out there could be inaccuracies in the link but no one is disputing that just maybe some of thise sites are sketchy.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 01:00 AM

31. The list is a fake! Truthdig's editor is a prominent US journalist:

For instance here is the bio on Truthdig's editor:

http://www.truthdig.com/staff/robert_scheer#bio

Robert Scheer, editor in chief of Truthdig, has built a reputation for strong social and political writing over his 30 years as a journalist. His columns appear in newspapers across the country, and his in-depth interviews have made headlines. He conducted the famous Playboy magazine interview in which Jimmy Carter confessed to the lust in his heart and he went on to do many interviews for the Los Angeles Times with Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton and many other prominent political and cultural figures.

Between 1964 and 1969 he was Vietnam correspondent, managing editor and editor in chief of Ramparts magazine. From 1976 to 1993 he served as a national correspondent for the Los Angeles Times, writing on diverse topics such as the Soviet Union, arms control, national politics and the military. In 1993 he launched a nationally syndicated column based at the Los Angeles Times, where he was named a contributing editor. That column ran weekly for the next 12 years and is now based at Truthdig.

Scheer can be heard on the political radio program “Left, Right and Center” on KCRW, the National Public Radio affiliate in Santa Monica, Calif. He is currently a clinical professor of communications at the University of Southern California’s Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism. Scheer has written 10 books, including “Thinking Tuna Fish, Talking Death: Essays on the Pornography of Power”; “With Enough Shovels: Reagan, Bush and Nuclear War”; “America After Nixon: The Age of Multinationals”; with his son Christopher and Lakshmi Chaudhry, “The Five Biggest Lies Bush Told Us about Iraq”; “Playing President: “My Close Encounters with Nixon, Carter, Bush I and Clinton—and How They Did Not Prepare Me for George W. Bush”; and “The Pornography of Power: How Defense Hawks Hijacked 9/11 and Weakened America” and “The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street” (Nation Books). Scheer’s latest book, “They Know Everything About You: How Data-Collecting Corporations and Snooping Government Agencies Are Destroying Democracy” (Nation Books), was released on February 24, 2015.

Scheer was raised in the Bronx, where he attended public schools and graduated from City College of New York. He studied as a Maxwell Fellow at Syracuse University and was a fellow at the Center for Chinese Studies at the University of California at Berkeley, where he did graduate work in economics. Scheer is a contributing editor for The Nation as well as a Nation Fellow. He has also been a Poynter Fellow at Yale, and was a fellow in arms control at Stanford.

Scheer received the 2010 Distinguished Work in New Media Award from the Society of Professional Journalists’ Greater Los Angeles Chapter, and in 2011 Ithaca College awarded him the Izzy Award for outstanding achievement in independent media.


While some of these are arguably fake news (Rense and What Really Happened ,ie) others are not.

Counterpunch has been around since 1993 as a lefty publication, nothing new. I recall reading Counterpunch during the George W. Bush administration.

Jack Pine Radicals isn't even a news site -- just a forum like this one only with disgruntled progressives, some are actually Democrats who simply preferred Sanders.

This seems to single out mostly left wing sites as opposed to crazed right winger sites.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 07:01 AM

32. I see JPR as more of an ongoing identity crisis and less of a "fake Russian news" site

It started off as a largely pro-Sanders site, and when Clinton won the Primary and the "contested convention" thing didn't happen, there was a "Season of Stein," and then, in the post-Trump election wake of no real game plan for 2020, it lost any real focus.

There was no way that a "revolution" was going to supersede Clinton v Trump. The voters who went for a third choice or didn't vote at all handed us what we have right now (and that is an over-simplification, but it represents at least part of the truth), and while anything is possible between now and the 2020 election, we have no strong reason on November 26, 2016, to say with complete authority that the 2020 election will not come down to a 2-party race.

So JPR has become a site filled with people who don't know, but have strong opinions, so they express their opinions in the absence of facts.

We have no idea what's going to happen after four years of Trump, whether he makes it or quits or is impeached. As i have said in many DU threads, I am personally more wary of Paul Ryan having four years to make his "dreams" come true.

As a result, I have no idea of what is to become of JPR. Is it a "progressive" site? Yes...but it's a mix of a lot of other things the average "progressive" may or may not want to align themselves with as well.

Are they a pro-Trump Putin mouthpiece? Yeah, they did go through some of that, and they attempted to distance themselves from it. It's bound to happen on any "membership" site. DU has a higher level of awareness when it comes to "moles" or "disruptors" and so they are less welcome and their stays here are briefer.

But I still call it an identity crisis. They went all in for Sanders and that didn't happen, so they lacked a viable "Plan B." And while it's fair and accurate to say that Clinton was the "Plan B" that would have kept Trump out of the White House, they weren't going to go for it. That's the "postmortem" we're dealing with now.

I'm neither trying to defend the site nor attack it. There's no shortage of negativity, bile, hatred there...call it what you will...when it comes to Clinton. They will either work through that and find a more common, positive voice between now and the next election, or they won't.

I don't want to insult anyone who strongly believes in the possibility of a third party candidate in 2020 who is capable of winning. The pragmatic side of me can't see past a Democrat / Republican race, and if we are able to identify and support a Democrat in the next couple of years capable of going the distance, I...for one...will back that candidate. If we can't do that, Stein and Johnson and a lot of other politicians mainstream America hasn't heard of will be sending out their resumes.

Think of it this way...Ryan and McConnell are two 10-year olds who have been feed a lot of sugar and turned loose for a shopping spree in the toy store.

If that's not reason enough to...paraphrasing McConnell himself here...make one term for Trump the primary goal of the next four years...I'm at a loss. I just don't know what to say. My guess is that if a 1%-er is somehow reading what I've written here, they might think "FUCK yeah...TRUMP."

But for everyone else, by the time Medicaid and Social Security no longer exist, and by the time Ryan succeeds in making tax cuts that skew by 47% to the 1%-ers in year one and 99.6% to them at the end of a decade...by the time anyone reading this who depends on food stamps to survive no longer has them...it will be Democrat versus Republican, and if another Bernie Sanders emerges, he/she had goddamned well better be, as Jimi put it, a Voodoo Child. They goddamned well better be able to stand up next to a mountain and chop it down with the edge of their hand.

Because anything else would be masturbation.

Ideas that are not actionable ideas are masturbation. They're the guy rolling joints talking about how he's going to put a band together and go out on the road and rock the nation who wakes up in a pile of Taco Bell wrappers and just rolls another joint.

It would be that joke on "The Simpsons" about Homer losing out on the employee of the month to "Inanimate Carbon Rod" and Bart asking breathlessly "Did you actually get to SEE the rod?"

This is the year in which we witnessed the biggest con man of all time win over voters with a baseball cap, xenophobia, racism, and a carrot dangled in the face of people so far beneath his extreme level of contempt that he must laugh himself silly every time they echo his "make America great again" mantra. This is an asshole who just ate a 24 course Thanksgiving dinner at Mar-A-Lago in which half the dishes were named after him. He shits on a golden toilet. We are going to be paying millions of dollars a day so that he can "work" from Trump Towers. And you thought you were pissed off by all of George W. Bush's visits to the pig farm?

JPR, by necessity, has to re-invent itself for the journey ahead. Will they become a Reddit-styled shithole (some would say they have already become exactly that) or a voice worth hearing?

I don't know.

You don't know.

They don't know.

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Response to Miles Archer (Reply #32)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 04:47 PM

42. I kind of see JPR as a split off of a church

Some members had strong beliefs and wanted to go another direction, leadership said no so they formed their own place.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 07:08 AM

33. this list is BULLSHIT

 

ridiculous, ludicrous, whatever you wish to call it.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 01:42 PM

36. Truthout and Naked Capitalism are Russian fronts?! Lol!

That Will Pitt is a Rusky!!1!

Robert Parry too?!



This is satire right?

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Response to Arazi (Reply #36)

Sat Nov 26, 2016, 04:47 PM

41. plus 1

 

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 11:56 AM

43. Three of those I could tell

Counterpunch, JPR, and truthdig. The rest I haven't read. Counterpunch currently has a piece about how much worse Hillary would have been as a president. Two types of people believ that: Nazis and Kremlin moles.

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Response to kimbutgar (Original post)

Sun Sep 3, 2017, 12:11 PM

44. Not surprised to see JPR included. That place is a cesspool.

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