Really disturbing porn

[MannyGoldstein]

Personally, I don't particularly feel strongly as to whether porn is inherently good or bad. My first thought is that incidence of rape might increase due to availability of violent porn, but it seems that rape incidence has actually dropped during the years that porn has become more available. However, crime in general has dropped during those years, so I don't think we can claim that porn reduces rape. Or that it increases rape.

Assuming that porn doesn't cause crime and everyone involved is doing what they enjoy, I don't particularly care one way or the other as to whether it's produced or consumed. I don't care about how people have sex - get out there and enjoy yourself, whatever works for you. I read an exhortation earlier today warning that people can get injured having porn-film-style sex. I've never had the pleasure of receiving such an injury, but I have broken 5 bones and had some other injuries from playing sports, climbing things as a kid, and so forth. I won't implore people to avoid sports. (OK, I would urge you not to learn how to do hand stands on a skateboard while barefoot - that was a particularly stupid thing to do.)

Pornography does disturb me deeply when participants perform against their will, either from coercion or desperation. One obvious type is child porn. Disturbing beyond words, the producers and consumers are sick. It is a mental illness, I think. Some producers probably do it for enjoyment, but I'll bet that many do it for money. Sick. Sick. And illegal, of course.

A few months ago, I read an article stating that an astonishing number of porn films are made where women are inhumanly degraded - it is a subculture. Some of these women were interviewed, it seemed like most were doing it because it was the only way they could make a decent living, and they were disgusted and sad at what they had to do. This is also sick. It is a sign of a sick society, one where so many people are denied living-wage jobs and they must turn to degrading themselves. If you're lucky enough to be attractive, you eat and have a roof over your head. Not attractive? Tough shit, you starve on the street.

If we want to reduce the number of degrading spectacles around us, we need to take back our government from the Predator Class and create a new New Deal. We need living-wage jobs. As long as the 99% are held down by debt, austerity, and laws that give their money to the wealthiest, we will have very bad things happen.

We must fight.

[yardwork]

1. Good post.

[yardwork]

63. Forgot to rec the first time.

As somebody else already said in this thread, thank you for injecting some sanity into this discussion. Not to mention dignity.

[rhett o rick]

2. Good post. I am guessing the Neighborhood Watch gang will leave you alone on this

one.

[chervilant]

54. What do you mean by that?

Is "Neighborhood Watch gang" the new PC term for those of us who are addressing the sexism and misogyny on DU?

[MannyGoldstein]

64. I *think* Rhett's referring to the swarm of helpful minders

that dive-bomb my OPs these days to ensure that the Third-Way's view is accurately represented.

[rhett o rick]

65. Dont get caught wearing a hoody Manny. nm

[chervilant]

66. Yeah, well,

I'm not one of those 'helpful minders.' I find most of your posts relevant and well written.

While reading the rest of the comments on this OP, I found it sad that some took this to a personal level and lost sight of the macro-level issue, which is that some porn (others might allege most porn) is demeaning and damaging to women and children. Moreover, the porn that demeans and damages women and children is dangerous (and potentially destructive) to men.

As with ANY other socio-cultural construct in this nation, sexism and misogyny are definitive elements, largely because we live in a patriarchal society. AND, the power imbalance inherent in the social construct we've labeled 'patriarchy' is damaging to our entire species. How can we expect a 'dominant' gender to respect a 'submissive' gender, when 'power over' is glorified? We women are considered less than because we have a vagina instead of a penis! How absurd! (Yes, I said VAGINA!)

Some great resources for any who wish to change this oppressive socio-cultural reality:

The Mermaid and the Minotaur: Sexual Arrangements and Human Malaise by Dorothy Dinnerstein.

Beyond Power: On Women, Men and Morals by Marilyn French.

The War Against Women by Marilyn French.

(BTW, I know I've posted this before. However, I've noticed that some of the misogynists on DU have been working hard to deny their sexism...)

[panader0]

3. A quote from Stephen Gaskin, founder of the Farm Commune, author of several books:

"Love is always cool, lust is never cool."
Sort of sums up my thoughts about the current "porn wars" here on DU.

[LeftyMom]

7. Poor Ina May doesn't know what she's missing then.

It's totally possible to have both.

[RevStPatrick]

39. Ha! That's what I just thinking!

My old pal Bro Jud would've said the same thing. Oh that crazy weekend 20 some-odd years ago... One joint for Jud, one joint for Steve... Another joint for Jud, another joint for Steve... Jud wants another joint, another joint for Steve... Rolling rolling rolling... Keep those joints a-rolling...

[RainDog]

8. your link is to a woman who claims Kinsey was lying about sex

Judith A. Reisman is an American cultural conservative writer best known for her criticism and condemnation of the work and legacy of Alfred Kinsey. She is noted as "the founder of the modern anti-Kinsey movement." Her commentary is currently featured by WorldNetDaily

World Net Daily is an entirely discredited site full of religious lies.

The Rape, Abuse, Incest National Network claims sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years. Their figures comes from the U.S. Department of Justice. National Crime Victimization Survey. 2006-2010.

So, your link is to a source that is more right wing than Glenn Reynolds.

[seabeyond]

9. yup. and there is a bases in my post. google, is your friend. across the nation police are

confirm this is happening.

[Major Nikon]

26. So how do you account for the National Crime Victimization Survey also saying it's going down?

Just curious.

[seabeyond]

42. post 41. that is just a start. nt

[Major Nikon]

45. Post #41 doesn't even mention the survey or address it in any way, shape, or form

And since the survey isn't affected by what the police do or don't report, all you've done is post a bunch of irrelevant nonsense.

So I'll ask again...

So how do you account for the National Crime Victimization Survey also saying it's going down?

[seabeyond]

48. it shows that the crimes are not being reported or underreported. but, i have done this in the past

and pro porn ignore it and play games. i swore i would not do this again. i was suckered in. lesson learned, again

[EOTE]

62. Many crimes have always gone unreported.

The question is, are more going unreported now, or less? All reliable statistic are showing that crimes in general have been in decline significantly over the past 30+ years, including sexual assaults. So, if you're going to suggest that the only reason that is is because crimes are going unreported now, you should have at least an inkling of evidence that suggests that crimes are reported less now than in the past. Without that little smidgeon of evidence, what you've posted is utterly worthless. Do you honestly deny that crimes, including sexual ones, have decreased significantly in recent decades? Honest question.

[Major Nikon]

69. You won't get an answer

The reason is because Radical Feminist "theory" dictates that as porn proliferates, so must rape and violence against women in general. That's why the Radical Feminists became book burners back in the 80's. They sought legislation against the proliferation of porn because that was the big boogeyman that was going to affect all women.

So their big problem now is that since the availability and use of porn has skyrocketed, and violent crimes of all sorts against women have gone down, it proves their "theory" was wrong. If the "theory" is wrong, their plans for a gender neutral society must be based on flawed pseudo-science. And who would have ever guessed their "theory" was flawed? It was conceived not by people with psychology, sociology, or criminology backgrounds, but rather by people with literary or cinematography backgrounds(if any at all). Who would have ever thought that would have turned out badly?

[EOTE]

70. Couldn't hurt to try, I guess.

I suppose entering this thread has been slightly more fruitful than banging my head against a wall. All I've learned is that people who are quick to invent "facts" of their own are not very good at accepting actual ones.

[Major Nikon]

68. I'll take that as a non-answer to the question

If you don't want to answer it, you should have just said so. Saves everyone's time that way.

Just sayin'

[Major Nikon]

22. Radical Feminists and the wingnut religious establishment are in bed with a lot of things

...and have been for decades. That's why you see a lot of religious wingnut tripe parroted out by them. Around the time Radical Feminists climbed in with Ed Meese and the rest of the book burners marks the zenith of their political influence. I lost all respect for them as did most everyone else, including a lot of other feminists.

[RainDog]

23. which is kinda ironic

since religious conservatism is a predictor of sex crimes - but not porn.

but - you know, if you say this people are going to come after you for not caring about women - at least that's been my experience.

[seabeyond]

24. yes. i notice how much empathy you have for the woman in the video. none.

the only effort you put forth is try to discredit and hide as hard and fast as you can. she is insignificant to you because it interferes with your story.

[RainDog]

27. you don't know what I think

you're too busy inventing your own version and posting links from a woman who claims homosexuals were responsible for Nazis.

is it any wonder that I have no use for anything you post?

it's SHAMEFUL that you use this homophobic rapid right wing conservative as a source and then, when someone challenges you, you say, use google.

[seabeyond]

41. is change.org ok with you. first one i grabbed.

Each year, the FBI fails to count hundreds of thousands of rapes in its Uniform Crime Report (UCR)—even missing many rapes that are reported to police. That’s because for over 80 years, the FBI has been using the same fundamentally flawed definition of “forcible” rape: “The carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will” to track rape statistics in the UCR.

This excludes rapes involving forced anal sex and/or oral sex, vaginal or anal fisting, rape with an object (even if serious injuries result), rapes of men and transgender people and other injurious and degrading sexual assaults. Also, because the definition includes the word “forcibly,” police departments often interpret the rule (against UCR guidelines) as leaving out rapes of women with physical or mental disabilities and those who were unconscious or under the influence of drugs and alcohol.

A recent Ms. investigation revealed that the archaic definition plays a key role in the vast underreporting of rape in the U.S.:

· The FBI’s 2007 Uniform Crime Report listed 91,874 “forcible rapes”, but some estimates suggest the actual number may be 24 times higher.

· Police departments go to great lengths to look good on the UCR, the FBI’s comprehensive national crime report by which all U.S. police departments are judged, and federal funding is determined. Often this means interpreting “forcible rape” even more narrowly than the FBI does when classifying sexual crimes.

· Police departments across the country, notably Baltimore and Philadelphia, have been found to be juking the stats—coding legitimate rape cases as “unfounded” in order to make it appear that rape numbers have declined.

Without an accurate definition, we won't have accurate statistics about rape, and without accurate statistics, we will never have adequate funding for law enforcement to solve these crimes. A change in the definition of rape would lead to better law enforcement response and could thus reduce dramatically the incidence of rape.

It’s high time for a change. For rape survivors, a modern definition of rape at the federal level would acknowledge, once and for all, that rape is rape—and that the stories and experiences of all rape survivors count.

Make sure that all rapes are counted. Sign this petition to tell FBI Director Robert Mueller and Attorney General Eric Holder to update the overly narrow, outdated “forcible rape” definition.

http://www.change.org/petitions/tell-the-fbi-rape-is-rape
___________________________-
http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2012/02/09/safety-in-numbers-authors-of-book-assailing-police-stats-say-its-for-the-nypds-own-good/
To their survey results the authors added interviews with officers still in the line of duty as well and retirees. What emerges is a picture of police culture in which quotas to reduce crime numbers for the seven major crimes tracked by Compstat — murder, rape, robbery, felonious assault, burglary, grand larceny and auto theft – have promoted manipulation of numbers and especially the widespread downgrading of reports of serious crimes into lesser offenses.

“It’s intolerable that the numbers go up,” said Silverman, “so officers on the ground often downgrade incidents.”
________________________
http://theuptowner.org/2010/11/30/the-numbers-game-does-the-nypd-manipulate-crime-statistics/
The disparity between local hospital data and police crime statistics supports the officer’s statements. In 2009, St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital on 113th Street and Amsterdam Avenue treated 210 people for sexual assault, which it describes as rape, said Susan Xenarios of the hospital’s crime victims unit. Of those victims treated, 110 reported their assaults to police, yet the six precincts surrounding St. Luke’s Hospital reported a total of 58 rapes last year.
_______________________________
http://www.drtomoconnor.com/1010/1010lect01a.htm
Here's an example of a typical police department's manipulation of crime reporting. In 2004, Atlanta's own police chief ordered an audit be carried out for crime reporting from previous years. The audit found that the city police department had underreported crime for many years in an attempt to boost the city's appeal to tourists and win the site selection process for the 1996 Olympics. The audit was carried out by the New York-based auditing firm Linder & Associates. It found that in many cases (22,000), crime reports were simply lost because the department was overworked, understaffed, and sloppy. However, in many other cases, crime incidents were deliberately downgraded, underreported, or discarded in order to make the city look good on paper. The result of all this deliberate activity was that the crime rate in Atlanta was reported as 7% lower than it should have been. The standard FBI crime report margin of error is 2%. It may also be noted that Atlanta has about 15 law enforcement agencies (university, hospital, public transportation police, etc.) which do not send their crime reports into either the Atlanta police or the FBI.
_______________________________
http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/naacp-calls-for-independent-audit-of-milwaukee-crime-stats-h85pq8b-159204505.html
In a statement, Hall also said he is concerned by a Journal Sentinel investigation last month that found more than 500 serious assaults were misreported as lesser offenses. Those downgraded offenses don't get counted in the city's violent-crime figures, which Milwaukee police have reported as falling for four straight years. The Journal Sentinel review also found more than 800 additional cases that fit the same pattern but couldn't be verified with available public records.

Under Flynn's leadership, police have reported a 21% drop in serious crime since 2007. The number of felonies prosecuted by the Milwaukee County district attorney's office has dropped 2.6% over the same period.

"Such repeated broadcasting of crime statistics not only drives public perception of city safety, but also provides a key rationale for the public acceptance of such otherwise unacceptable police tactical impacts as longer police response times, steep racial disparities in traffic stops, and recently disclosed practice of unlawful body searches," Hall said.

"While there is no clear standard for error rates, we know that every city has an incentive to report a drop in crime," Hall said. "Reports of crime reductions may provide a short-term boost to city morale and perhaps even economic activity, but such boosts are illusory if based on false pretense. It is only the actual, sustainable, real-life crime reductions that create lasting and undeniable benefit for our city. It is important that the reported numbers reflect reality. We cannot chart a proper path to a stronger city unless we first have an accurate and realistic reporting of data."
__________________________
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/crime/news.asp
Coverage of "downgrading" crimes
The department concluded that the unit had written off 1,822 crimes in those years, including 681 rapes.
_____________________
http://scholarworks.uno.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1599&context=td&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dare%2520police%2520force%2520downgrading%2520crime%2520statistic%2520in%2520u.s.%2520cities%2520to%2520the%2520fbi%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D45%26ved%3D0CFYQFjAEOCg%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fscholarworks.uno.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1599%2526context%253Dtd%26ei%3D307hT_XYGqfD2QXjk-W5Cw%26usg%3DAFQjCNEka6qzA2fDrH9YWudfZ8thqqXa0Q#search=%22police%20force%20downgrading%20crime%20statistic%20u.s.%20cities%20fbi%22
The New Orleans Police Department: Melding
Police and Policy to Dramatically Reduce Crime in
the City of New Orleans
_________________________
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-city-rape-statistics-archive,0,7495701.special

he Senate Crime and Drugs subcommittee has asked representatives of the Office of Violence Against Women to appear in Washington to discuss the problem, as well as a Pennsylvania woman jailed by police who erroneously accused her of making a false rape report.The Sun reported in July that Baltimore for years led the nation in the percentage of rape cases in which police concluded that the victim was lying, with more than 3 in 10 cases determined to be "unfounded." Other cities have seen disturbingly high percentages of uninvestigated or dropped rape cases in years past, and a women's advocate in Philadelphia pushed for the congressional hearing after the Sun's investigation reignited concerns.

The newspaper's report "made me believe that all of the issues [in other cities] were not just idiosyncratic problems, but that there is likely a chronic and systemic failure in police departments," said Carol E. Tracy, head of the Women's Law Project in Philadelphia. "I think it's important to expose it, and to encourage the federal government, which has very little jurisdiction around this, to nevertheless exercise greater accountability on the data that it does receive."

Tracy's group reviews rape reports marked as unfounded by Philadelphia police. The hearing was authorized by Sen. Arlen Specter, the Pennsylvania Democrat and former prosecutor who heads the Judiciary Committee.

The Sun analysis showed that four out of 10 calls to 911 over a five-year period had not generated a police report, having been dismissed by officers at the scene. Victims have reported being interrogated by detectives about their motives and truthfulness, while others said patrol officers ignored their allegations.

___________________---

there is a start.

i know it will be ignore.

[RainDog]

46. much better than a link to a homophobic religious nut

so, how do these figures correlate with national statistics that claim rape is down 60%?

that question requires a little more work.

[Zalatix]

47. Uh, where did THAT accusation come from?

[Major Nikon]

28. You were exactly right

You just got one, and right on time, as predicted.

[RainDog]

30. amazing, isn't it?

this is the second time this week the same person has ignored the content of what I said - in this case, the source is not valid, before, because I talked about 1st amendment rights as more important than censorship, I didn't care about women.

lol. unbelievable. right here it is. again.

[Major Nikon]

44. Been there, done that

The really funny part is she probably still doesn't realize she posted exactly what you said she was going to post.

I'd better be careful, though. Next she will accuse me of just trying to "shut her up".

[zappaman]

51. "Next she will accuse me of just trying to "shut her up"."

My favorite response to mild criticism or a difference of opinion!

[RainDog]

15. so you support work from a conservative mouthpiece

who supports abstinence-only education - you find this source valid?

This person writes for a nutcase religious website - and you laud this?

interesting.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. I'm sure that's true.

So we can't know the real answer. So our best bet I think, but not a sure thing, would be to see how rape goes up and down over time compared to other violent crime. If it went up much faster than other violent crime then we'd likely have a problem. Since rape seems to go up and down similarly to other violent crime, there's no obvious evidence that it started increasing since porn became widely available. We might look at other countries statistics where we believe that crime reporting is more accurate, e.g., Northern Europe. I'll take a look.

[riderinthestorm]

14. I'm not so sure rape has a correlation to porn

Have there been studies on this? I know rape can be correlated to poverty, war, personal feelings of powerlessness and issues of control and violence on the part of the rapist etc but have there been any studies that correlate rape to porn?

I didn't want to touch that part of your post Manny because I have no authoritative data on it but would be interested in being educated.

[RainDog]

17. There is a correlation b/t religious conservatism and sex crimes

The upbringing of sex offenders was usually sexually repressive, often they had an overtly religious background and held rigid conservative attitudes toward sexuality (Conyers & Harvey, 1996; Dougher, 1988); their upbringing had usually been ritualistically moralistic and conservative rather than permissive. During adolescence and adulthood, sex offenders were generally found not to have used erotic or pornographic materials any more than any other groups of individuals or even less so (Goldstein & Kant, 1973; Propper, 1972). Among sex offenders, violent rapists had seen no more pornography than had sex peepers or flashers (Abel, Becker, Murphy & Flanagan, 1980). Walker (1970) reported that sex criminals were several years older than non-criminals before they first saw pictures of intercourse. Thirty-nine percent of convicts surveyed by Walker agreed that pornography "provides a safety valve for antisocial impulses." It thus seems that early exposure to sex, rather than late exposure, is socially more beneficial.

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/DIAM/effects_pornography.htm

[riderinthestorm]

21. Yup, I know that as well. I just think its interesting on many of these threads

there are a fair few people trying to correlate rape stats with porn usage. That's a new one for me.

Actual rape has nothing to do with sexual fantasies from what I know and have experienced so I'm always surprised when I see this popping up. Don't get me wrong RainDog, I presume you and I are still on opposite sides of the fence on this issue but I hate seeing any misconceptions about rape and what drives another human being to it.

[seabeyond]

25. i am not saying rape is up because of porn. i do not believe the fbi numbers on the rapes reported

there are links showing across the country rapes not being documented. the fbi does not believe their umber. my argument was not with porn, but the numbers for rape.

[riderinthestorm]

31. I understood what you were saying. My point was that across these threads tonight

this meme has tried to creep up - that rape stats have a correlation to porn as Manny tried to do in his OP. He even pointed out the discrepancy so I knew he must have wondered about it.....

I just don't think that data is out there and I'm trying to be accurate, that's all.

[MannyGoldstein]

34. Actually, I (hope I) wrote that porn availability seems *uncorrelated* with rape incidence.

I'll try to clarify the post.

[riderinthestorm]

36. I'm so dead tired, I really need to get off and get some sleep.

Thanks for an interesting OP. I merely read your intent as a bit of bewilderment and that you as a person were trying to find answers and correlation. Please know that I took your OP as a whole in the manner you wanted. I'm just being picky about the rape thing since its something I care deeply about.

Peace!

[MannyGoldstein]

37. You might want to reword the fourth sentence of your post.

*I* know what you mean, but...

[riderinthestorm]

40. LOL! Thanks! The best part of DU, helping a fellow compadre

out of the bar before they embarrass themselves....

[Odin2005]

60. The rates of ALL violent crime has gone down sharply since 1990.

Read The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steve Pinker.

Rates of the different kinds of violent crime (murder, rape, assault) go up and down together, that is a proven statistical fact.

[RainDog]

32. I don't know that we're on opposite sides

I'm not actually "pro porn." I am anti-censorship for reasons that are linked to women's best interests.

what is amazing to me is that a woman who claims that homosexuals recruit children is a valid source here on DU. Using this person as a source is no different than quoting Jerry Falwell as a source.

[riderinthestorm]

38. I'm not anti-censorship either - agreed.

Time for bed for me. Good night!

[obamanut2012]

55. There is no correlation between porn and rape

None.

There is, as you mentioned, real correlations between a whole host of other things and rape, which is what I wish the effort against porn would be put to (poverty, lack of education, job instability, etc.).

[riderinthestorm]

5. Manny, Manny, Manny doncha know that porn is PRO-WOMAN

and if you don't get that, you are a religiously oppressed scold who doesn't see the empowering, uplifting joy of porn. Honestly, there MAY be some small, insignificant, unimportant parts of "inhumanly degraded" women in porn (honestly, I hate that you used such terrible terms - tsk) but those aren't to be mentioned and they are so rare, such a small part of the porn industry, well, you're just obsessing too much over details, details, details.

We the people LOVE our porn, all 99% of us. Its only the 1% of moralizing prudes who object. Really, almost ALL of it's just amateur videos of happy people who love to see themselves on the internets!11!!!

[MannyGoldstein]

13. It seems that Conservatives, then, are the most ardent Feminists.

Porn in the USA: Conservatives Are Biggest Consumers

Here in Massachusetts, porn emporia and strip clubs seem to be scarce compared to other places I visit in our great land. I guess we hate women. Or we understand how to use the Internet better. Who can tell?

[seabeyond]

6. my husband ws telling me that he has read where a lot of the on line porn is not willing

Last edited Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:20 PM - Edit history (1)

participants. you do not know what is happening behind the camera and we all know how the world works. it is something i had not even considered. but, once he told me it was a real... duh.

this video is a woman in the industry addressing the issue. i saw this, and listening to what hubby has to say, and has made me more concerned. graphic and not, everything is hidden.

[RainDog]

12. you keep posting things from religious conservatives

and earlier this week you claimed that Republicans are appealing to women because the Democratic party doesn't care about the "pornification of women."

maybe the women are buying into the "family value" issue cause of the pornification of our women?

at least we hear the talk of this. your radfem theory? not so much. not at all. but, what the fuck.

you talk about calm logical, yet, your post has NO logic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002817409#post259

The irony, of course, is that religious conservatives are the group most likely to consume the porn produced, more likely to be a predictor of a sex criminal and the greatest indicator of misogyny in a society.

but I do find it interesting that your sources are right wing and you make the claim that the Republican party might appeal to women because of their positions on women - or rather, because Democrats are somehow to blame for porn - when, again, if the market dictates, the reality is that conservatives are to blame for porn.

[seabeyond]

16. are you talking about where the video came from? really? i dont give a fuck what site it came from

it is a video that can be found on youtube. i couldnt pick up the link there cause you have to have an 18 and older account and i screwed up my passcodes. it is a damn video. put the info into google and you can see it on youtube so you do not have to go into whatever site it was.

geeez.

[RainDog]

18. both of your posts here come from religious conservatives

one of whom is entirely discredited.

the woman who is the subject of this video, btw, may not be telling the exact truth either - I don't know.

what I do know is that you don't seem to be too picky about sources if you think you can use them to make your case. in the case of Reisman - anyone that would quote her doesn't care too much for facts.

Reisman would not be considered a valid source here as an OP, for instance. Quoting her is like quoting Sarah Palin.

[seabeyond]

20. do you simply ignore what i type? i told you, top of google it is in youtube. i. can. not. open.

youtube. is that really a tough concept for you to grasp. google it. it is the top one. go into youtube so you dont have to see whatever site. how many times are we going to play this game. it is a damn video.

she is a porn actress. are you calling her out, or just dont care what she is saying?

[obamanut2012]

56. You certainly should care about what your sources are

Good God.

[Fawke Em]

35. Who cares who posted it originally?

The footage speaks for itself. Geez.

Those women were being harmed and forced to do things they didn't want to do in an unsafe environment.

I don't give a shit if the former porn star depicted there was giving a sermon at Liberty University - her footage is REAL.

[seabeyond]

43. personally, i am appalled someone is harping about where a video was picked up

ignoring a womans pain.

thank you. i didnt get that at all. i am glad i am not the only one.

[RainDog]

49. there are critiques about some of her claims

that's the point I was trying to make.

including being forced.

this is emotional and inflammatory - so to claim that the footage is all that matters is, to me, analogous to people getting up in arms about the claims from the women, in sworn testimony before the legislature, that babies were thrown out of incubators in order to justify the George HW Bush invasion of Iraq. - edited to add - those claims were lies.

Of course that is upsetting.

I am considering the source for the video - and I am interested in finding out more information.

If I don't immediately jump on that bandwagon, the point I made above is why.

[obamanut2012]

59. Check downthread -- video discrediting her

aka Michelle Remembers or some of the other "Religious Right" panic sources.

Sources matter.

[obamanut2012]

57. I care about who posted it originally -- RainDog is right

People need to check who their sources are, because these same sources use their videos and writings to lie about a lot of things to further their political-social agenda, and have been doing it for years. They make up things from whole cloth, about pagans, gays, women, porn, so many subjects.

Any high school kid learned to check your sources when you write a paper.

[Waiting For Everyman]

53. A video that rebuts this video.

The vid posted by seabeyond comes from ShelleyLubben.com (found that out on youtube). Evidently she is a born-again ex-porn star whose porn name was Roxy. (I don't know anything about her and don't care about the porn issue either way, I just looked into this just now.) The video below rebuts just about everything this one had to say. The other side of the story...

[obamanut2012]

58. Excellent -- thank you

Not surprised. As I said upthread, sources matter, and the Religious and Political Right are notorious for making things up (Michelle Remembers, Patricia Pulling, Bill Schnoebelen, Ex-Gaying and Ex-Pro Choicing Norma McCorvey, etc.).

As any good researcher or writer will tell you: sources matter.

[Waiting For Everyman]

71. Some additional installments turned up.

Part 1

Part 2 (already posted above)

Part 3

Turns out, Lubben's own family disputes her story too. Especially her brother. I think it's #3 that goes into that, but not sure, I watched them last night.

Here are Lubben's websites:
http://www.shelleylubben.com/
http://www.thepinkcross.org
http://www.championscentre.com/ (the ministry which "converted" her, she says)

[4th law of robotics]

67. I know that if I want objective truth I go to a born again christian

who admits to suffering mental illness (prior to porn) and whose story has been completely denounced by everyone else involved (including her fellow "victims&quot .






/http://news.avn.com/articles/New-Documentary-Exposes-Shelley-Lubben-s-Lies-426673.html

[Taverner]

19. "...we need to take back our government from the Predator Class"

I agree 100%

[clang1]

33. "...we need to take back our government from the Predator Class"

Also agree 100%. Problem is the predators are in both parties.

[PufPuf23]

29. "If we want to reduce the number of degrading spectacles around us, we need to take back our

government from the Predator Class and create a new New Deal."

Yep.

Evil and exploitive porn is one of too many symptoms that are ever more ubiquitous that are there every day that the situation is seriously amiss.

Erotica and sexual pleasure and sex as an expression of love are gifts.

You have a good heart as evidence by your words and steadfast MannyGoldstein.

[lapislzi]

61. If one chooses to do sex work, it should be a choice freely made

Not out of desperation.

Thank you for injecting some sanity into this discussion.

[Rex]

50. It can probably be said of any normal woman that

selling her body for sex is the last thing she would want to do.

[The Doctor.]

52. "Normal"

Yeah, that really nails it all down.

See you at the links tomorrow?

[Rex]

72. What about that statement doesn't make any sense?

The average woman...sheesh everyone is a critic these days. Do you know what average means?