Question about the cultural meaning of the confederate flag.

[DetlefK]

I'm european, so I'm not really getting this.

Does the confederate flag have a predecessor from before the times of the civil war?

If not, then it's a symbol of secession and a symbol of turning your back on the US and leaving it.

So, my question is:
Why is the confederate flag not regarded as a symbol for treason and lack of patriotism?
Why are US-citizens celebrating the heritage of a nation whose only contribution to history was to wage war against the US?

[JI7]

1. same reason shia and sunni are still at war

[TBA]

2. I'm a true child of the south

And I don't understand it either. It's not uncommon to see the confederate flag and the US flag on the same pole in the more rural areas. The irony is astonishing.

[Hoyt]

3. Nowadays the heritage that flag stands for is one of hatred & inhumanity. It's the American Swastika

You can bet anyone who proudly flies that flag voted for Trump, or would have if they could have got off their ignorant are to vote.

[ileus]

4. It's a game rednecks play...not much different than a collegiate flag.

Most of rednecks think it's just something to piss off "liberals" with.

[safeinOhio]

7. That works both ways

I call it the Surrender Monkey Flag.

[Hoyt]

14. No, most of them are racists and proud of it. That's just typical white wing BS.

[Grey Lemercier]

5. heritage my black ass, its an open advert for the longing for return to slaver days

fuck any and ALL who fly that shit rag

[Iggo]

13. fuck any and ALL who fly that shit rag

Bears repeating.

[rogerashton]

6. Detlef, perhaps you understand it better than Americans do.

In one sense, the confederate flag does have a "predecessor:" the Lone Star flag of Texas, which is still its official emblem. Texas seceded from Mexico when Mexico abolished slavery. This created the precedent for the secession of the Confederate states. Thus the Confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacism. End of story.

I grew up in "redneck" country in northern Louisiana in the 'fifties. The cult of the Confederacy was probably at its height them. We did not stand when the Star Spangled Banner was played -- we stood for Dixie. But many of my my junior-high-school classmates volunteered for the (then already integrated) military and several were lost in cold-war conflicts and in Viet Nam. In the Twentieth Century, white supremacism in this form remained very widespread, but was also allied with imperialism. That seems natural enough -- supremacism of two logically connected kinds -- but was new in American history, American imperialism having been pretty much created by Theodore Roosevelt, who did what he could to oppose white supremacism.

And not only in the South. I have seen the confederate battle flag displayed in a biker bar in a rural section of New Jersey, the "pine barrens," and in other northern rural areas.

This matched demand for ethnic and national hierarchy does have some parallels in Europe, I believe.

[cally]

8. The first time I traveled to Atlanta, I was surprised to see the confederate flag on tourist items

I live in California where the confederate flag and always believed the confederate flag showed racism and treason. I never understood why it has lasted until that trip to Atlanta. In the tourist shops, the souvenirs had the confederate flag on the cups, change purses, etc. If you wanted a souvenir of Atlanta, you pretty much had to buy one with that flag. A piece of chocolate was put into a bag with that flag. I realized that to some, it represented the south.

I did not buy anything with that flag on it and I was shocked by it all.

By the way, in the bookstores were books prominently displayed denying slavery. This was 20 years ago.

[TheBlackAdder]

9. During the antebellum South, Protestant Churches shook down slaveholders, then justified it.

.


The pastors in Protestant churches (Baptist, Episcopalian and Methodist) were routinely shaking down slaveholders for money to achieve mild church sanctioning. After a while, and under heavy Northern church abolitionist pressure, the Southern churches worked with the slaveholders to find moral justifications for slavery. Before that, the non-slaveholders and slaveholders alike were suffering from a dualism of conflicting ideas, while also not believing the slaveholder's claims of Christian scripture support. This psychological splitting was also tearing apart the communities. Justifying slavery, torture, abuse, etc. while also professing to be Christian proved to be a challenge.


The result was that, if the pastors were going to shake down slaveholders, the churches needed to come to the plate and devise ways to morally justify slavery to the whole South. The churches, working with slaveholders, created something called Southern Paternalism. The slaveholders were acting as good Christians by saving the slaves from the slave merchants. While the slaves were often abuses and killed, their suffering in life, along with the introduction to Christianity, would guarantee them a Christian afterlife.


This though was pushed throughout the South and became integrated within the Southern culture. Heck, the pastors had their own slaves to tend to the church properties and their own households. The investment in cheap labor was part of Southern society and they tried to say that up North, those who worked got meager wages and had an even worse private life than the Southern slaves. This, as we all know, is just another means to make their actions justified in their minds. The church and society also pushed that whites were the superior race. The sermons to the slaves reinforced the ethic to be a good slave and do your work for your masters.


England was intercepting slave ships and other cargo ships to check for slaves and this added to the anger that the North was pressuring the South to abolish slavery. The flag is part and parcel of this secessionist movement, mainly spurred by this tension.


.

[oneshooter]

10. The majority of slave holders, in the South, were democrats. n/t

[graegoyle]

12. Democrats eventually went populist and Republicans went states rights, flipping their alignments.

[Hoyt]

15. No, most were inhumane Slave Owners before the Civil War, and racists after.

The Democratic Party of today is nothing like that of the mid-1800s, nor is the Republican Party. For that matter, the racist Dixiecrats are now Republicans. It's like the difference between muzzleloaders and your AR15s.

[oneshooter]

16. OK, most were inhumane Democratic slave owners.

Who fought the United States for 4 years before being defeated.

[TwilightZone]

17. Today's Republicans are yesterday's Democrats.

Last edited Mon Nov 28, 2016, 08:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Southern Strategy ring a bell?

[Hoyt]

18. Good answer to that ole white wing meme/BS about Lincoln was a GOPer.

[TwilightZone]

19. Agreed.

It's not even Reagan's party anymore, much less Lincoln's.

[LeftInTX]

11. Here is a wikipedia article with some historical info about the flag

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_flag

Each state in the US has their own flag. State flags change from time to time. In the 20th century some southern states began incorporating elements of the confederate flag. They can get away with it due to the 1st Amendment, "free speech". These states say the flag has historical value. However, southern states are backing away from displaying the confederate flag, civil rights groups have shown that it is primarily a symbol of hate. Mississippi currently has the confederate flag within their state flag.

Private citizens are free to display any flag they want.

Usually when a private citizen displays a confederate flag they are not advocating secession. They are advocating other things such as "I'm a racist", "FU govt", "I hate taxes" or "I'm a redneck".

Basically they have the right because they have free speech.