Saying What Must Be Said: The President-Elect is MENTALLY ILL

[KingCharlemagne]

Last edited Tue Jan 24, 2017, 11:42 AM - Edit history (2)

Trump's latest Tweet-storm about millions of illegal ballots having been cast in New Hampshire, Virginia and California highlights the strong possibility he is in the full grip of delusional thinking. I think it may be time for Trump's critics to switch from perpetual excoriation of the man to suggesting professional help for him and a concurrent concerted effort to convince the Electors in the Electoral College to invoke the 25th Amendment of the Constitution preemptively to deny him the office.

I would simply remind DU and its sympathizers to remember that someone who is mentally ill, like the evidence now suggests Trump is, is actually suffering from an illness. He or she is not fully or even legally responsible for his words and actions. A couple of my friends who have had parents slip into dementia report that their parents were quite capable of saying incredibly hateful things, words completely at odds with the parent my friends thought they knew before dementia set in. I'm not a trained psychologist, but my family has a history of chronic mental illness and, after awhile, you start to recognize the signs. This paranoid delusion about millions of illegal votes reminds me of things one of my psychotic family members might have said.

In some ways, a mentally-ill Trump is far more serious and worrisome -- and sad -- than the caricature of Trump as some Bond-like villain. At least the villains in Bond's films acted based on an understanding of the facts; their interpretation of those facts failed to take into account Bond's expertise, but the villains were never out of touch with reality. Trump's tweet suggests to me he has lost touch with reality.

The question is: what are we going to do about it? Can and should the 25th Amendment be used preemptively as a rationale by the Electoral College to deny Trump the office?

Edit to Add: NY Times columnist Paul Krugman just tweeted out today (January 24, 2017) that President Trump is mentally ill. Krugman is referencing two articles from the past 24 hours:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/us/politics/donald-trump-congress-democrats.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-first-days-inside-trumps-white-house-fury-tumult-and-a-reboot/2017/01/23/7ceef1b0-e191-11e6-ba11-63c4b4fb5a63_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trumpturmoil-0902pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2911cbe14108

[exboyfil]

1. He is starting at the point Nixon ended

What is he going to be like in four years? My guess is that he doesn't make it past the first year.

[KingCharlemagne]

2. One of my favorite high school teachers developed Alzheimers before

she passed. One of my high-school classmates ended up being her hospice nurse and it was very sad to hear details of her decline. That's why I say this is sad, in the human sense of watching a fellow human being decline into something a little less than human.

[exboyfil]

6. Both grandparents on my dad's side

One had Alzheimers and the other had dementia. Tough to watch.

[Maraya1969]

172. We don't want him to make it to day one. Once he is in office we will end up with Pres Penc

We want the actual winner of the election to be placed into the office of the president. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

The electors have a very important duty now.

[MadamPresident]

3. He's the only thing standing between us and a full on Christian Taliban regime.

Under lunatic Mike Pence.

Pence is going to have way too much power as it is. We don't want him to have the full power.

We are well and truly fucked.

[Calculating]

8. This

Personally I don't want anything bad to happen to Trump. The alternative is worse, MUCH worse.

[MFM008]

85. No actually

Pence is a bigoted moron but he is standard republican fare not prone to insane tweetery.
Pence is no worse than Ryan or McConnel. He is them.
The maggot on the other hand is a special kind of crazy.

[womanofthehills]

97. I agree, I think Pence is controllable

However, I can't stand to hear his smooth talk - like a male Kellyanne.

[pangaia]

145. r u implyng tht kellyann is a smoh taker?

[still_one]

176. I don't know if he is "controllable" or not, but if they was an effort to remove trump

by either impeachment or the 25th amendment by declaring he was not fit to serve, it would definitely delay things, and anything they can do to delay them from the damage they will be doing is a good thing.

[whathehell]

128. My sentiments, exactly... Pence is sane

even if very conservative. We can't have a nutcase anywhere near the nuclear codes.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

130. I'm not so sure. Pence is a Nazi bigot of the highest order... he scares the living shit out of me!

[Fast Walker 52]

183. I don't see Pence leading an overtly brutal fascist takeover of the country

in contrast to Trump, though obviously Pence has unique horrors in terms of women's rights and gay rights.

Pence has been a pretty low key as a governor, except for his anti-abortion and gay idiocy

[KingCharlemagne]

9. The Electoral College can choose to seat whomever it

Last edited Mon Nov 28, 2016, 11:50 AM - Edit history (1)

chooses to desginate. Should it use the 25th Amendment as a rationale to deny the office to Trump, it is under no obligation to elect Pence. However, the 'constitutional crisis' such a scenario engenders suggests the EC might do just that. At this point, I would prefer Pence to Trump, just because we simply cannot have a psychotic person with access to nuclear weapons. Even a Christian Taliban is preferable to that.

[MadamPresident]

111. They're not going to do that.

We're stuck with this idiot until his own party turns on him.

[berksdem]

126. the guy is a scumbag...

but he is the new GOP... they won't turn on him.

[roamer65]

171. ...or the US military.

They swear an oath to defend the Constitution. I hope they take that oath seriously.

[still_one]

177. You are right, they aren't going to do it. Trump is not an idiot, but he is an evil asshole, and

the people he has been appointing highlight that fact.

The country will be going into an extremely dark period

His latest Pick for HHS, Tom Price, is as bad as they come. Anyone who thought that Medicare or the ACA wasn't at risk, should now be very concerned

[calimary]

154. Welcome to DU, MadamPresident.

I agree. mike pence would do his utmost to force-feed Christian Sharia Law upon all of us. I seriously believe that. In some ways he scares me more than trump. And with a CON-dominated Congress providing NO stops, NO curbs, NO defiance, and few if any objections to anything the vulgar orange jackass wants, I fear you stated the inevitable. "We are well and truly fucked."

Even if both of them could be removed, we'd still be stuck with Paul Ryan. Which would be nauseating.

At the moment, unless something really miraculous happens in the Electoral College, I suspect it'll be up to all of US to make sure they're one-termers. I'm afraid it's gonna be a looooooooooonnnnnnnnng four years. I don't have any confidence in our Congressional OR Senate Dems to stand up and fight this. As I read in one op/ed piece: "Democrats bring a butter knife to a gunfight."

[CountAllVotes]

178. Welcome to the Democratic Underground MadamPresident

& welcome!

[LisaM]

4. But Trump's meanness is hardly new.

There was a video going around from some Golf Channel show in 2101 showing him saying awful things. Dementia would progress over six years but he was just as mean then.

[exboyfil]

10. Makes me wonder how the Secret Service

will react to these folks. i know the Clinton's took some propaganda hits on that score. Wait for the greatest entitled family in White House history. People thought George W. Bush was out of touch, but he was a decent man in general. This guy and his progeny --

[Nitram]

135. George Bush was a "decent guy" who mimicked a woman on Death Row pleading for her life.

A "decent guy" who did his best to break down the wall between church and state so he could give evangelical christianity a leg up on everybody else. A "decent guy" who didn't have the imagination, intelligence, or empathy to help New Orleans in their darkest hour. A "decent guy" who thought it would be cool to invade Iraq against the advice of his own father and everybody else except his closest advisors.

[exboyfil]

139. I actually meant

George H. W. Bush and left off the H. Your point is taken about George W. Bush though, and I think the elder Bush definitely has CIA dirt under his fingernails.

[Nitram]

180. Ah. Then I agree. Herbert Walker was in a different league than his son.

[Initech]

5. He is definitely not stable. I fear what's going to happen.

[DetlefK]

7. I've been suspecting for a long time that Trump has a mild form of schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia means that one cannot tell fact from imagination. "Hearing voices" is just one possible symptom of that.

[KingCharlemagne]

12. My Mom was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and some of Trump's recent

behaviors are disturbingly familiar. As I said, I'm not a trained psychologist, so I'll just put those familiar rumblings in the category of "Things that make me go 'Hmmm'."

[Nitram]

136. I think it's more likely that he's ADHD and narcissistic.

Doesn't think anything through, always shoots from the hip and bluffs his way through any situation.

[lindysalsagal]

149. Adding illiterate, and lacking any compassion, I would agree.

[Nitram]

181. I'll see your illiteracy and lack of compassion and pass.

You are right. I've wondered if a learning disability such as dyslexia is in the mix somewhere.

[loyalsister]

150. Undiagnosed or hidden for 50 yrs?

It would be impossible to hide with side effects of drugs used when he would have been diagnosed. 50+ yrs of hallucinations and delusions that can be extremely debilitating without seeking treatment or encountering a single person who suspected. Doubtful.

[Doreen]

173. He is so narsisstic that he

would not listen to those little voices because they were not his. The only voice he truly listens to is his own.

[CousinIT]

11. Oh no. CBS is making too much off the mouthy jackass to ignore or shut him up

Or to seek help for him.

And CONgress wants to use him like the last pResident Rubber-Stamp who couldn't read and had the attention span of a gnat (GWB). So they're not going to do anything either. You'd think his family would seek treatment for him but they need his position as POTUS go advance their own business interests and to feed their own narcissistic supply so that isn't happening either.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/leslie-moonves-donald-trump-may-871464

[KingCharlemagne]

16. I woke up this morning to the news and commentary about yesterday's Tweet-storm and

something inside of me had shifted, from anger and hatred to a painful recognition that something is just not quite right. Trump's hatefulness and the anger it provoked in me blinded me to this until today. Hence my OP. People with family histories of mental illness are probably also having, or have had, similar epiphanies and I may be a late-comer.

[womanofthehills]

117. I felt the same way - like OMG his mental stability is worse than I thought

Feels scary.

[world wide wally]

13. I have always thought he was more emotionally disturbed than mentally, but I don't know much

about how you classify these things.

[lonestarnot]

15. Nutter works.

[KingCharlemagne]

18. Yeah, me neither. And after Bill Frist's remote diagnostic debacle, I am

even more insistent on my lack of formal qualificaitions. But something is not quite right, you know? It's off, but I'll be damned if I can pigeon-hole exactly why, save that I recognize delusional thinking when I see or hear it.

[Blanks]

33. That's because he's actually a fictional character...

He played a successful businessman on TV, so people think he's a successful businessperson.

If Christopher Reeve had run for office, he would have won too (if he ran as a republican). Who wouldn't vote for Superman after all. It isn't just Trump that has had an obvious departure from reality. The millions of voters that voted for him, can't differentiate between reality TV and reality.

It doesn't take a shit load of 'googling' to see that Trump, and people like him, aren't the solution, they are actually the problem. He doesn't even own the bulk of the 'Trump' crap out there.

Yeah, there's crazy things going on right now, but Trump doesn't have the monopoly on crazy.

[Perseus]

88. "but Trump doesn't have the monopoly on crazy."

That is where the problem is, the crazies of the Republican party, and there are plenty of them, have found a "Goose that they hope will lay the golden eggs", to help them carry on with their agenda, and THAT is something to worry.

[Blanks]

101. They control the media...

If we want to go back to winning elections again, we have to control the media.

Democrats, with few exceptions, controlled congress from the Great Depression until Reagan took office. In 1976 when Dole was running for Vice President he talked about 'democrat wars'.

Then, Jimmy Carter never dropped a bomb, never fired a shot as president, and then didn't get reelected. That's not a coincidence. Trump talked about making NATO pay its share, I'm not sure what that means for defense spending exactly, but based on the election results, they (defense contractors) must have interpreted that to mean they'd get more money from our allies or Trump would have lost as bad as was predicted.

It's been a long known conflict that ownership of the media by the military industrial complex is a huge problem. I understand Bill Clinton made cuts to defense spending. Based on the negative press media, they were expecting more of the same from Hillary.

We either need to create our own media, independent of the military, or figure out a way to tap into the defense spending such that they (defense contractors) support democrats in a way that democratic voters can live with.

There are a great many of us that are appalled by the huge percentage of our budget that goes toward defense spending while the republicans demonize single moms, somehow we need to frame our 'vision' in a way that doesn't pit the military industrial complex against us, but we still strongly support social justice.

[Fast Walker 52]

166. good post, and good points

[RKP5637]

37. It seems there are a combination of things going on. It ranges from childlike to incoherent, to

delusional and on and on. It really needs a psychiatrist to sort things out and a diagnosis. Whatever, it becomes more and more clear there is something disturbing going on just from observation.

[mopinko]

14. his refusal to take intelligence briefings or state dept advice

on meeting w world leaders shows he is not capable, or is not planning to do his job.

[world wide wally]

21. He gets his intelligence briefings from Russia

[ToxMarz]

22. It's as if he can't process that he IS the government now

He just expects it to work and if it doesn't he will just rail against it. Nobody likes the Government anyway, so everyone will agree it's not him, it's them.

[mopinko]

81. yup.

he thinks the obama people will stick around as long as he needs them. he doesnt get that all those people disappear on jan 20.

tho it would be a great thing if that happened, and i hope that one good side effect will be a record number of leave behinds who will be willing to testify.

[RobinA]

109. He Has No Concept

of what government actually is or does
in the real world. This man has done one thing in his life, and it was handed to him. He didn't work his way up from anywhere, he was placed on home plate. He has no concept of running the bases except as some fuzzy notion that there is such a thing.

He's bubble boy put in charge of the most powerful nation on Earth. Meanwhile, he's never done anything as practical as changing the toilet paper. Hell, he doesn't even know the toilet paper gets changed.

Believe him when he railed at Hillary for not solving all the world's problems as Senator from NY, he has no idea how anything gets done.

[Nitram]

134. He has traded on his inherited money and his father's reputation to build a con man's ability...

to lie, obfuscate, distract, confuse, attack, and double-cross his way from scheme to scheme. He has the biggest sense of entitlement of anybody in the known universe.

[bdamomma]

157. No political ideology

he doesn't know anything he has earned the label of the biggest bull shit artist and he has the capability to push that button, what the hell is wrong with people???? just sickening this is not a freaking reality show.

[Little Star]

17. The DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder are:

Last edited Mon Nov 28, 2016, 01:41 PM - Edit history (1)

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, as indicated by at least five of:

1. a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, ie unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, ie takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy and is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes

The Donald in a nut shell!

Yes, the 25th should be used preemptively as a rationale by the Electoral College to deny Trump the office for the good of this country. Will they? Nope.

[KingCharlemagne]

20. Hmm, that's very interesting. Did the criteria change in any significant way with

the DSM-V? (I know that it exists from one of my students, but I have never examined it.)

[Roland99]

75. Yes, classic case of narcissism. I'd even say an extreme case

but I'm not a Dr. and don't play one on TV.

[HockeyMom]

90. A Narcissist cannot have Dementia too?

It took a full 10 years with my SIL befre her husband, and son, took her to a doctor. In hindsight, that is about the time we started noticing changes in her.

Little things like picking arguments over nothing, and worse, not letting it go. On and on and on. Trump's constant Tweets? Everything was a personal attack on my SIL. Trump? She so verbally attacked and insulted my husband that he refused to talk to her for years. This was over his driving her and the direction he took. Totally NOTHING but to her it was the end of the world. She was right and he was WRONG.

It has gotten so much worse lately to the point that she doesn't only verbally attack but has physically attacked her husband. Her son has moved in with them to try to keep her under some kind of control.

Trump? Look at all the anger he has which he cannot seem to let go of. All those faces he makes with pure hate and anger. That is my SIL, who is the exact same age Trump is.

No, not a doctor, but I do think Trump might have a mental issues. Besides my SIL, I have also worked with mentally impaired people. You learned very quickly by the look in their eyes when they were going to have a meltdown, and try to attack you.

Trump has that same look in his eyes when he thinks others are attacking him and he is RIGHT.

[womanofthehills]

100. And remember the debates

He was really creepy - stalking Hillary on stage sniffing away.

[KingCharlemagne]

188. You have captured this feeling of discomfiture far better than I could ever hope

to. It's the 'look in their eyes' that is really chilling.

[jmowreader]

119. The DSM-5 criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder are even better

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/carrerasdegrado/psicologia/sitios_catedras/practicas_profesionales/820_clinica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
1. Impairments in self functioning, either (a) identity [ego-centrism, self-esteem derived from personal gain, power or pleasure] or (b) self-direction [goal-setting based on personal gratification; absence of prosocial internal standards associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior]
AND
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning, either (b) empathy or (b) intimacy

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domains:
1. Antagonism, characterized by (a) manipulativeness, (b) deceitfulness, (c) callousness or (d) hostility
2. Disinhibition, characterized by (a) irresponsibility, (b) impulsivity, (c) RISK TAKING

C. Impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments are not better understood as normative for his developmental stage or sociocultural environment (if everyone around you is a prick you're not a psychopath if you're a prick too, you're just fitting in)

E. The impairments are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance or a general medical condition

F. The individual is at least 18 years old

APD is the container for sociopathy and psychopathy. I think it fits Trump better than NPD.

[MineralMan]

19. There's no real way to use this to block his election by the EC.

It's so unlikely that the electors will vote in any way but as their states went, that it doesn't even warrant wishing for.

Until Trump is actually sworn in, he is not the President, so constitutional methods of removing a President are not available until then. After he is President, then the only way to remove him is through Congressional action. Since the Congress will be in the hands of a Republican majority, that seems highly unlikely and would require extraordinary things to happen.

Should he become President? Absolutely not. Will he? Almost certainly.

By the way, I believe you are referring to the 25th Amendment, not "Article 25."

[KingCharlemagne]

25. OMG, thank you so much for your gracious annotation. I have now edited

the OP to reflect the correct reference to the 25th Amendment.

Section 4 of the 25th Amendment provides that when the Vice President and a majority of the Cabinet may indicate to the President Pro Tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House that the President is unfit to serve, at which point power devolves to the sitting Vice President. If the sitting President disputes with the majority verdict of his or her Cabinet, he can register that disagreement with the President Pro Temp of the Senate and Speaker of the House and Congress will then hold a hearing to adjuicate the claims. That is at least how I read the text of the 25th Amendment.

Do you think Trump is mentally ill, such that he is unable to serve?

[MineralMan]

44. Mentally ill? Depends on the definition being used.

He has personality disorders, but is in no way psychotic. He's an idiot, but there's no intelligence measurement required to be President.

Here's the thing: The 25th Amendment requires the VP and a MAJORITY of cabinet members to declare the President to be unfit. That seems an unlikely thing to happen, given the current situation and the situation for the foreseeable future. I can't imagine that happening, really. Avoiding a constitutional crisis is a matter of high concern for people in government, and such a declaration of unfitness without a debilitating stroke, injury or a clear psychotic break would be such a crisis.

As much as I'd like to see Donald Trump as a non-President, the 25th Amendment is a highly unlikely way for that to happen. It was written to cover situations where a sitting President became disabled an unable to continue to fulfill his role as President. It was not written, nor will it be interpreted, to be a method for removing a President who is standing or sitting, talking and taking nourishment. We have a method for removing a President who commits crimes or grave offenses. That is impeachment and conviction by the House and Senate respectively. That is equally unlikely, given the makeup of the Congress.

We will make a mistake if we base our hopes on such unlikely events. If we do, we will be disappointed and have wasted our time.

[KingCharlemagne]

56. Just out of curiosity, do you happen to remember the specific historical context

in which the 25th Amendment was proposed, debated, and ratified? Wiki says it was passed in 1967, which was certainly a time of great political tumult. I was a little boy then, so have no personal memories of this amendment.

[MineralMan]

65. It's fairly complex, and depends on which section you're talking about.

The reason for the Amendment was that there was not a clear line of succession beyond the Vice President. Concern about loss of both a President and VP was the starting reason for the creation of the 25th Amendment, based on fear of a nuclear attack that wiped out both people.

Other sections were added to cover other circumstances, with Section 4 designed to deal with a disabled President, which was not covered in the original Constitution.

The Amendment clarifies the succession for President, and was needed, since many circumstances weren't considered in the original Constitution.

[KingCharlemagne]

68. I wondered if Eisenhower's medical problems as president had been a motivator. I"m not

even sure I remember correctly, but I think he may have had a serious heart attack while POTUS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Dwight_D._Eisenhower

[MineralMan]

70. Actually, the concern probably started with FDR.

The Constitution left a lot of things open. Most of the Amendments just clarify the original document by adding specifics.

Until the 25th Amendment was ratified, there really wasn't any clear succession beyond the VP. That needed to be fixed, and so we have the Amendment. Now, it's part of the Constitution, and can't be changed without another Amendment.

All kinds of unexpected consequences come from any document like our Constitution.

Ronald Reagan almost certainly had Alzheimer's during his second term in office. Others made the decisions for him, I have no doubt and he was propped up in front of a microphone when needed. I clearly remember watching Nancy Reagan whispering in his ear on one occasion, when he suddenly was at a loss for words. I turned to my wife and said, "Reagan has Alzheimer's."

Was he removed from office? Nope. Things just went on as if nothing was wrong with him. A VP and Cabinet are unlikely to ever declare a sitting President as unfit. It's just not going to happen.

[cab67]

94. My understanding is that it actually started with Woodrow Wilson.

Wilson had a stroke in the second half of his second term, and it severely impaired his ability to do the job.

[Hekate]

120. His wife Edith took messages in and out of his sickroom to such an extent ...

...that some public comment was made about who was actually making the decisions.

[MineralMan]

190. Thanks for that information. I had forgotten Wilson.

[KingCharlemagne]

189. I remember reading somewhere, althogh I'll be damned if I can remember where exactly, that

Special Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh had considered naming Reagan as an unindicted co-conspirator in Iran-Contra and only decided not to after interviewing Reagan and, supposedly, seeing first-hand the signs of onset of Alzheimers. I always thought that was a very magnanimous gesture on Walsh's part, although I think the country might have been better served by an impeachment trial. Might have headed off a lot of the "Unitary Executive" bullshit we've had to resist subsequently.

[Yo_Mama]

118. FDR was the reason for pres. term limits and Wilson & FDR inspired the disability clause.

FDR died in office. Wilson was basically incapacitated for some months before he died after having strokes, and his wife, Ethel Wilson, is widely believed to have been making presidential decisions during this interval:
http://www.biography.com/news/edith-wilson-first-president-biography-facts
She claimed that he was making all the decisions, but since she would not let anyone else speak to him, this was doubted.

FDR also died in office, and was in feeble health, but probably not incapacitated before his demise.
http://www.history.com/news/memo-from-1944-warned-that-fdr-would-likely-die-in-office

In 1919, midway through his second term, Woodrow Wilson suffered a series of debilitating strokes that left him paralyzed on the left side, partially blind and emotionally erratic. His wife Edith and closest aides shielded him from the public eye, and the world did not learn of his severe incapacity until his death in 1923. (Edith, who served as her bedridden husband’s primary representative and took over many of his responsibilities, later described the arrangement as her “period of stewardship.”)

[MADem]

162. He did.

http://www.ozy.com/flashback/president-eisenhowers-14-billion-heart-attack/65157

Eisenhower would recover again, and even become something of a health and exercise freak in his second term, albeit the stubborn variety who refused to take orders and continued to smoke and indulge in food not on the restrictive diet prescribed for his heart and intestinal problems. It’s believed that after his first heart attack in 1955, Eisenhower suffered at least seven myocardial infarctions and 14 cardiac arrests before he died in 1969 at age 78.

William Sterrett, Eisenhower’s doctor after he retired to a farm in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, told The New York Times how he once found his famous patient in severe abdominal pain and asked what he had eaten for dinner. “Pig knuckles and sauerkraut,” Ike answered. “Why?” the doctor queried. “’Cause I like it, darn it!’’ the five-star general replied.

[treestar]

142. Why would it be unlikely?

If it turns out he really can't handle it? It's obviously for a case where the POTUS is say in a coma or had a heart attack and needs time to recover, or develops mental problems that make it so he just can't handle the job. It does seem a distinct possibility here. And it's not like the higher up Republicans ever liked him that much. Politically they would be all for it to get one of their own in.

[ThoughtCriminal]

127. The VP elect and so far all of the Cabinet candidates are also nuts

Just a different flavor of nuts.

[Blanks]

39. Nixon thought he was OK because there were enough republicans in congress...

Until he found out that they didn't support him.

I doubt the republicans would impeach Trump, but I'd bet that they'd convince him to resign if it looked like it were going to damage them.

[KittyWampus]

43. The Cabinet can remove him. 25th Amendment. Keith Olbermann

http://video.gq.com/watch/the-closer-with-keith-olbermann-the-surprisingly-easy-way-to-get-rid-of-trump

[Nitram]

76. The problem is he appointed the cabbinet, and he is their only chance for the job.

[MADem]

163. The Cabinet is full of HIS loons. They don't want to vote themselves out of a job. nt

[Javaman]

23. yes, he's either a psychopath or

has a membership in the Dark Triad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

[Fast Walker 52]

184. Dark Triad sounds about right... good find

[Javaman]

187. oddly, I just found this...

I had been referring to tRump as the a dark triad type for a few years now.

but it only now seems to be gaining in notoriety.

so I googled Dark Triad men and this is what I got...

DONALD TRUMP THE DARK TRIAD MAN

http://darktriadman.com/2015/12/16/donald-trump-the-dark-triad-man/

[Fast Walker 52]

198. holy crap, that is creepy as shit

What a repellent essay.

[Act_of_Reparation]

24. This is so fucking insulting.

Another armchair psychiatrist making malformed diagnoses because only mental illness could explain why Trump is so fucking Trump.

Because neurotypical people are never self-absorbed assholes.

[KingCharlemagne]

27. Mental illness would explain delusional thinking, not why Trump was and is so hateful. But

can you at least consider the possibility that Trump is mentally ill? Or have you ruled that out?

As I said in the OP, I have a family history of chronic mental illness and some of this looks and sounds a bit familiar to me.

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. Because neurotypical people are never delusional, right?

Every Sunday, tens of millions of people shuffle off to church, where they whisper magic spells to an invisible father figure in the sky. They must all be insane, I guess.

As I said in the OP, I have a family history of chronic mental illness and some of this looks and sounds a bit familiar to me.

And I knew a guy who had a Les Paul. That doesn't make me a fucking guitar player.

Leave the diagnosis to those who know what the fuck they're doing.

[KingCharlemagne]

38. I have a Les Paul knockoff (by Epiphone) but reasonable

minds may differ as to whether I'm actually a guitar player.

May I ask what a 'neurotypical' person is? I've never encountered that term before and am curious what it means.

[Act_of_Reparation]

41. A neurotypical person displays typical neurological development.

Historically, the term has been used to describe people without autism or other developmental disorders, but I use it here in reference to people without mental illness for lack of a better term. Technically, my problem is neurochemical -- low levels of extracellular serotonin, to be precise -- but "neurochemicotypical" sounds a bit clunky. I hope the ASD folks don't mind me coopting their term.

I also own an Epiphone Les. If the years have taught me anything, it is that there is a significant difference between a guitar player and one who simply plays guitar. I believe I fall firmly in the latter category.

[classykaren]

51. Wow Why are you so nasty?

[KingCharlemagne]

60. I think everyone here is a little on edge right now, no matter what they

may think of Trump or my OP. Add to that the enormous stigma that mental illness still carries in our society -- psychology is only about 100 years old as a scientific discipline, after all -- and OPs like mine are going to trigger what may seem nasty responses but are really attempts to defend sacred ground. I think that poster was quite right to underline my lack of professional qualifications and we did eventually find common ground through that truly international language, music. But this morning I woke up feeling something had shifted in my understanding or feelings about the situation, hence my OP.

There's an even nastier person further down thread. I'm trying to just shake it off like a duck shakes water off its back.

[Act_of_Reparation]

98. Because I don't like being stigmatized.

And I don't like having to repeat myself.

[Hekate]

121. You are being extremely defensive, and lashing out at someone who is being kind in response.

May I point out: It's not all about you.

[Act_of_Reparation]

124. No, it's not about me.

It's about the forty million Americans dealing with problems difficult enough without being associated with the worst aspects of human behavior. It's about the throngs of ostensibly progressive liberals who, rather than defending the voiceless, happily toss them under the wheels when the rhetoric demands it.

[progressoid]

30. 1

[Mr.Bill]

31. I agree.

This is not Alzheimers or some other illness he has recently been stricken with. He has been an asshole and a moron all his life.

[KingCharlemagne]

34. Agree 100%. But has he exhibibited signs of delusional thinking before

now? Many of his previous outrageous statements could be spun in such a way that they were not delusions. But this tweet about millions of illegal votes seems to cross a threshold, imo.

[Zoonart]

57. Perhaps a lifelong asshole...

but, having just gone through twenty years of watching my non-asshole Dad decline with dementia, I can tell you that this disease can strike when relatively young and begin to present itself subtly.

Dad began showing signs in his mid-sixties. First stages were mild paranoia and innocently triggered rages. Has anger could go from zero to sixty in seconds and was totally unhinged and sometimes physical. His balance was effected and he seemed to have an inability to reset his vision when looking fro side to side... reference trump's difficulty with the teleprompter. For Dad it effected his driving.

Progression was spastic arm movements, loss of social filters, extreme paranoia and difficulty sleeping.

He passed, last January after two years in a nursing home. I think what we are seeing in Trump is dementia. NOT A DOCTOR and not qualified in any way other then the experience of nearly 20 years of watching this decline.

[KingCharlemagne]

67. I am so sorry to hear about your father's decline and passing. I have never had any

family members with Alzheimers of whom I'm aware, so I've been spared that particular horror show. I can't even begin to imagine how heartbeaing it must be to have to watch that happen to someone whom you loved and who loved you.

[Zoonart]

71. THANK YOU

Thank you so much. It is devastating to watch a parent go down like that. Alzheimers is different from senile dementia in that the patient with dementia still recognizes the people around him. It is his circumstances that he cannot get a grip on. He knows who he is and who is with him at any given time, but sometimes does not know WHEN he is or WHERE. They often hallucinate situations that seem to calm them or inflame them. For Dad... it was a gentle hallucination- that the nursing home was actually his High School and the nurses were teachers and therapists were his coaches. That was the one blessing in the whole nightmare.

Anyway... thank you so much for your support. It really means a lot and this is exactly why I love the DU community.

[MADem]

62. Is the very behavior of being a self-absorbed asshole "neurotypical?"

I know a lot of people. Most are NOT self-absorbed assholes. They're the exception, not the rule. I don't think I've ever encountered, in my entire long life, someone with the degree of assholishness that Trump displays on a routine basis.

FWIW, mental illness is no more "insulting" than physical illness. You can't run a marathon very well with a broken leg. You can't be a stable President with a broken brain.

[Act_of_Reparation]

93. Yes.

People with qualifications a great deal more impressive than "I know a lot of people" have for the time being concluded that being being an asshole is not usually indicative of mental illness.

FWIW, mental illness is no more "insulting" than physical illness. You can't run a marathon very well with a broken leg. You can't be a stable President with a broken brain.

Completely off the mark. I am not offended that someone may think mental illness precludes a career in politics. I am offended that mental illness has become a convenient scapegoat for any and all bad behavior.

[MADem]

125. But I am not making mental illness "a convenient scapegoat for any and all bad behavior."

I am attributing it, after careful review, to a specific person whose bizarre conduct and statements suggest he is challenged in this area, and is in need of treatment and medication.

Some people are rude. Some people can be jerks. Some people lie on occasion. Some people confabulate a bit.

Very few people lie like rugs, change their stories, make shit up, and sit, contented and unaware and BOLD in their prevarication, after spewing shit six ways to Sunday, insisting that they are The Way And The Light.

Now, this IS the internet, where anyone is allowed to have an opinion and NO, I am not Dr. Frist. But anyone who insists that Trump's behavior falls with the rather broad range of normal (or "neurotypical" to use the latest medical-sounding buzzword of today) is willfully excluding his bizarre conduct and pronouncements, his bizarre choices for cabinet posts, his crazed, late-night tweets, and his walk-backs of firmly-held positions. For starters.

The sky is often blue. And grass is usually green--and there's something VERY WRONG with the way Trump processes information. He is not stable, and that makes him a danger to himself, but more importantly, the nation.

[Act_of_Reparation]

131. Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating.

In other words, Trump must be mentally ill because very few people you know Trump the way Trump does. So, pretty much the same groundless assertions you made before.

[MADem]

137. That's not what I said, but it's obvious that you want to be confrontational with

me, and I'm uninterested in going down that path.

Do have a nice day, or whatever. Enjoy your "slow clap."

Act_of_Reparation
131. Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating.
View profile
In other words, Trump must be mentally ill because very few people you know Trump the way Trump does. So, pretty much the same groundless assertions you made before.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

169. Not that it really matters, but that's not even

a slow clap. This is a slow clap:

[MADem]

170. Indeed--and the facial expression of JS is icing on the Slow Clap cake! nt

[bdamomma]

158. I agree a risk to himself and a RISK to others.

who is going to stop this jerk from taking us all down with him.

[MADem]

161. I wish the Electoral College would take a hard look. The man is not stable. nt

[RAFisher]

92. Agree!!! And people wonder why Mental Illness has a stigma...

Every fucking time someone does something different/crazy/abnormal people in the public just explain it away as a mental illness. People really need to read the DSM before they just start making claims that someone is mentally ill. Being an asshole is not a mental illness. And the idea you can judge if someone is mentally ill from just viewing there public persona is ridiculous.

[womanofthehills]

105. If you read the DSM, Trump is definitely mentally ill - he has them all

with numerous overlapping diagnosis. Psychosis with overlapping BPD, lots of narcissism and don't forget the paranoia. He seems to be unable to have any compassion for others or he would not be grabbing all those p**ys.

The slightest criticism just about gives him a heart attack - this is BPD screaming out at you!!

[Act_of_Reparation]

186. The DSM doesn't make you a psychologist any more than WebMD makes you a doctor.

[BainsBane]

143. 1

[Baitball Blogger]

26. I don't think he's mentally ill.

I think he's talking to his supporters, who don't need or require evidence to bolster their self-righteous indignation.

That's the symptom of a cult.

[RKP5637]

40. A cult and a coup! I think there's an awful lot going on, manipulative, power grabbers,

collusion, a lot of stuff behind the scenes. Clearly, of course, not a normal presidential election.

[KingCharlemagne]

52. That's a good point and, if true, gives him credit for being a very crafty

manipulator (without being mentally ill). Hmm, your point would mean that he made the tweet about millions of illegal votes knowing it to be false at the time he issued it and simply not giving a shit. There's something especially off-putting about that, but I agree that it's not "mental illness" as I understand the term.

[Baitball Blogger]

53. He did the same thing with the birther issue.

He pushed that meme knowing it would reach his potential voter base, even though he's smart enough to know it wasn't true.

[radical noodle]

103. Trump has spent his entire life manipulating people for his own purposes

He is an expert at it. He is a hateful person, doing all this for his own self-interest. To call him mentally ill would make him too normal, too sympathetic a figure.

Read The Truth About Trump by Michael D'Antonio. The manipulation of people and events started early.

[bdamomma]

182. manipulation

and brainwashing those are dictator personality traits, also he wants to get his base pumped up on these visits around the country who else did that in history??? that's right HITLER.

this white supremacy shit will go down in flames.

[womanofthehills]

106. I don't see how anyone can say this guy is not a screaming narcissist

[womanofthehills]

112. His reactivity is a big sign of a personality disorder

He has to always have the last tweet!!

[RKP5637]

28. It's no wonder he has to have his kids with him all of the time to help him understand events and to

try to make decisions. The world is laughing at him and now at the US. If he truly has these problems, it's horrible that those in the know allowed him to continue in the election ... unless he is being used and manipulated.

[Hekate]

122. Those who surround him are following his power but think they can control his madness

That article that surfaced before the election that described Trump as unable to even sleep unless his SIL Jared Kushner was "talking to him in his whispery voice" raised the hair on my head. That's when I started calling him Mad King Donald.

[Bohunk68]

185. Interesting about the "whispery voice."

Had not come across that before. Jared sets off my gaydar big time. I have heard him in videos and watched his actions, words. His relationship with the Donald makes me wonder what is going on between the two of them. There is something there.

[loyalsister]

29. Not until there is a DX

This ableist speculation keeps coming up. Tying him to a stigmatized status only hurts the people who already live with being demonized and marginalized.
He's self absorbed and has built a bubble in which to live. He is ignorant and has actually not worked except on terms defined by his privileged life. He reminds me of people I know who have insulated themselves from anything beyond their control to a point of disinterest and disregard for others. The only thing that keeps him connected is the ways in which people can be of use to him.

[KingCharlemagne]

32. Yeah, I debated whether to publish this today, not wishing to add to

the stigma that attaches to mental illness. But this tweet about 'millions of illegal votes' is what set the alarm bells ringing. Do you think I should delete my OP? I will do so, if you think I should.

[Mr.Bill]

42. No need to delete anything.

This is a healthy intelligent discussion with many valid points being raised.

[loyalsister]

114. Thanks for asking, but it's your decision

I think that that tweet represents a belief in belief and trying to take advantage of entrenched bigotry. He is so sure of himself that he really sees himself as popular and well liked, that he doesn't need to check for logic or facts when something crosses his mind. I suspect that there is no one in his inner circle who would say anything different about his capacity and intellect.
Some might call it a narsissitic personality disorder, but I am more inclined to see it as a lifestyle of having paid enablers who affirm his belief in his intellect, charm, grace, etc because he measures it by money.

Talking about "illegal votes" is red meat for people who believe our elections are in danger because there are a lot of undocumented immigrants who try to vote.

[BREMPRO]

66. This n/t

[bucolic_frolic]

36. Men in White Suits

it's a go

[hamsterjill]

45. You think?

There are many people who have been shouting this from the rooftops for the last two years.

His stupid followers don't care.

Anything and everything that is possible should be attempted to keep this maniac from assuming the Presidency. Our lives depend on it.

[KingCharlemagne]

191. Yeah, I'm aware that I'm hardly the first person to voice such concerns. Something about

this particular tweet about 3 million fraudulent votes prompted me to raise my own voice.

[hamsterjill]

193. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky!

I re-read my post, and I really wasn't trying to be snarky, but I apologize if it came off that way.

I guess I'm just absolutely flabbergasted (like so many of us) that the fact that Trump is "off" wasn't clear and obvious from the beginning. From the first debate, I had the opinion that he was "temperamentally unfit" to say the least, "unbalanced" to put it nicely, and "batshit crazy" if you really want to know what I think.

He proves it every single day, too.

I don't understand how the people who voted for him overlooked the obvious. I know the answer to that question, but I cannot understand the stupidity in simply refusing to see him for what he (obviously and plainly) is. It's not like he has tried to hide it even.

[Buzz Clik]

46. The development of a logically flawed argument (the classic false dilemma):

1. Propose an unsubstantiated hypothesis in the form of a statement of fact.
   
2. Toss out a tangentially related fact as evidence that the hypothesis is, indeed, a fact.
   
3. Meander about with statements of angst and concern, always returning to the unsubstantiated hypothesis as if it were a well-known and long established truism.
   
4. Concoct a doomsday scenario that will result.
   
5. Plead for help and suggest an irrational solution.

Well done!

[KingCharlemagne]

47. So you think there really were millions of illegal votes?

[Buzz Clik]

99. Yes, that is exactly what I said.

That was the entirety of your objective was to contest the notion of "illegal votes"?

Question for you: have you challenged any of the dozens of threads at DU claiming election fraud? Have you suggested that the authors of the OPs are mentally ill?

[Boomer]

48. Strictly speaking, he's not mentally ill

He has a personality disorder. But it's a difference that really doesn't make much difference in terms of his unfitness for office.

Trump's statements about voting -- about anything, really -- are fully in line with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Anything he says, at any given moment, is about making reality bend to what makes him feel good about himself. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant. Whether or not he said the exact opposite thing 5 minutes ago is irrelevant. His world consists of the present, this moment, in which he is all that matters.

[KingCharlemagne]

49. Thank you for that distinction. Not being a professional, I lack a lot of the vocaulary

and expertise. I just can't get over this nagging feeling that something just isn't quite right. Hard to verbalize it.

[Boomer]

54. Damn right something isn't quite right

He may not be mentally ill as defined by a clinical diagnosis, but in terms of disruptive behavior and popular understanding, he's crazy as a loon.

The main takeaway from his NPD is that he has no master strategy and he is incapable of moderating his own behavior. Trump's only priority is to remain the center of attention. He doesn't care how he gets it or what the consequences are for other people. He barely recognizes that anyone else exists. They are simply audience for his greatness.

[RobinA]

113. Good Description

I think the point also needs to be made that none of this is going to change. He isn't going to wake up tomorrow, realize he is POTUS, and pull himself together because it's time to get serious.

[yurbud]

50. another response to this:Democrats should take off the gag about GOP vote suppression & vote rigging

For people who are effected by this and even those of us who just know about, it gives the impression that Democrats care less about winning and their constituents than not offending Republicans by pulling back the curtain on their dirty tricks.

If Hillary has the kind of pull in the media that her emails illustrated, she should get on the horn about crosscheck and the GOP's past history of election rigging via electronic voting machines, and tell them to make Greg Palast's work and name inescapable.

[get the red out]

55. he has to be

Or how could he appeal to his base?

[saltpoint]

58. Never met Donald Trump and lack the

clinical chops to discuss his behavior. From a lay perspective, it looks as if he thinks he's right in all things, which is not how most of us were raised.

Many? Most? of us were raised to understand that everybody makes mistakes in judgment, that no one can be perfect. A casual glance at Trump's public behavior suggests that there are no such checks and balances in him, that he does and says what he wants, without regard for the people his actions or words might harm.

Eisenhower and Kennedy were two very different sorts of men. But my hunch about both of them is that if they wanted to learn something, wanted to find out about an issue, felt they needed more information before a decision could be made, they would gather informed and capable people around them and ask into the matter.

I get none of that sense in Trump.

[KingCharlemagne]

63. That's pretty astute. Makes one wonder how the Cuban Missile Crisis would

have gone down, were Trump at the helm. I think I may have just illustrated the principle of an "academic point"

[saltpoint]

64. A frightening scenario -- the Cold War roiling

chances for peace and Donald Trump (ugh) on the phone with the Russians.

Holy Yikes, Bat Man.

[Thekaspervote]

59. tRump's father had Alzheimer's and suffered for 6 years before he died

This disease definitely has genetic pre-dispositions

[KingCharlemagne]

61. Wow! Now that I did not know before now, which means I've learned

still more from this thread.

Thanks!

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

69. I wish people would stop diagnosing Trump.

Unless you are a clinical psychiatrist or psychologist, just don't do it.

Plus, labelling him as mentally ill essentially gets him off the hook of being responsible for his behaviors. He knows perfectly well what he's doing. Keep in mind this is a very wealthy man who has lived inside a bubble his entire life, and all during his adulthood he's been flattered and catered to by everyone around him, allowed to get away with anything at all, including it appears, raping 13 year olds.

That does not make him mentally ill. As someone has already pointed out, personality disorder is not mental illness.

He clearly believes all sorts of things that aren't true, such as the vote being rigged, climate change as a Chinese hoax, and a vast number of other things. But simply believe total crap doesn't make anyone mentally ill. Otherwise, every single person who buys into any one of the conspiracy theories out there is mentally ill. Anyone who believes in the invisible sky god is mentally ill. Heck, little children who believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy would be mentally ill.

Trump essentially inhabits a different reality than most of us. Just as a secular humanist here inhabits a different reality from that of a tribal shaman in Papua New Guinea. Or a cloistered nun in the middle ages. What he's surrounded by, what informs his world view, is substantially different from what we're surrounded by, what informs our world view. And even here on DU there are strongly different opinions about certain things, such as gun control.

Unless enough members of the Electoral College choose to vote for someone other than Trump, he'll be sworn in some seven weeks from now as our next President. Perhaps he'll be impeached and removed from office soon enough. But how much damage he does in the time he's in office remains to be seen. And Pence is now soft-hearted liberal. He's a career politician who can get legislation passed that most of us wouldn't be very happy with.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place doesn't begin to describe it.

[KingCharlemagne]

194. Yeah, I readily take your point. I hesitated before publishing this and

thought about deleting it. But it seems to have generated a thoughtful and mostly-respectful discussion, so I've left it up.

Your comments are really awesome here, btw, especially the part about how Trump inhabits a 'different reality than most of us.' I think that idea deserves its own OP and elaboration on its themes by you, as it goes to how personality is at least partially constructed and other post-modern theories of psychosocial development.

[Historic NY]

72. Dementia runs in his family.

https://medlineplus.gov/dementia.html

http://www.theimproper.com/142684/donald-trumps-family-history-alzheimers-campaign-issue/

[Laura PourMeADrink]

73. Step 1 - Have a press who doesn't ignore the obvious - It's almost like they

are being told to act like everything is normal ....with a million pound elephant in the room.

[hamsterjill]

80. Well, there's an example of that going on right here on DU.

Some people are horribly upset that the term "mental illness" has been ascribed to Trump. They have a point, I'm sure.

We all know that SOMETHING isn't right with Trump. So, how exactly (and this is a legitimate question - not trying to antagonize) is the media supposed to handle this? I'm not sure they know.

But one thing that I do know (as an individual) is that we cannot keep the need of being "politically correct" from discussing the very real issue that something IS definitely wrong with this man.

[womanofthehills]

107. It's a small distinction - mental illness or personality disorder

doesn't really matter because we know he is batshit CRAZY.

[Nitram]

74. My take exactly.

Wins the election and then starts blowing off about millions of votes being stolen? Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo!

[RobinA]

116. Understand How He Thinks

He won the election two weeks ago. People calling for recount now. Plus there's his popular vote deficit now. How could this happen to Trump, best of the best? Much illegal voting is the only explanation.

[Nitram]

132. Very true that Trump hates to lose, especially to a girl.

Even though he won the election, he would see losing the popular vote by more than 2 million as a loss.

[LanternWaste]

77. The Bill Fristian-style over-the-internet diagnoses made by educated experts

The Bill Fristian-style over-the-internet diagnoses made by educated experts in the relevant fields are heartwarming. No doubt, Terry Schiavo had a mere head cold.

[byronius]

78. Mentally ill or not, he's saying this to counterbalance the clear evidence of election fraud.

I've run into this before. It's the number one excuse offered by right-wing radicalists when confronted with evidence of gerrymandering, caging, and electronic election fraud.

'We're just makin' up for all them browns what vote illegally!'

And that is how they make their treason okay.

[Vinca]

79. I read somewhere about a professor using him as a case study for narcissistic personality disorder.

The man "ain't right." I've had a novel in my head about a POTUS who goes crazy while in office, but this surpasses fiction.

[nini]

82. He's a narcissist

A YUGE one.

[vkkv]

83. MY wife & I have been saying he's ill since last year.. why it's not absolutely clear to

those in power to make gov't decisions is beyond me...

Fake news, fake voter rolls, fake 'facts' = fake leadership.

[barbtries]

84. i've been saying this for months.

not that i knew of action to be taken, but that he is a sick man. this has been on full display for well over a year if not earlier (I never followed him or watched his shows before).

and he got elected. his cult of personality is large and robust and apparently they love his sickness, it suits them to a T.

i don't get it. but i have not doubted for a second that he is a sick man and there is no indication that this will change.

[mopinko]

86. if it really is alzheimers, as so many suspect, many based on up close knowledge

of the disease, an mri would show that.
other testing would give very good clues. a standard neuropsyche exam at walter reed should be a part of any examination for fitness in office. perhaps submitting before the conventions, either voluntarily or compulsively, should become sop. perhaps this should be expected of serious candidates, as part of the health reports that have become customary.
hell, a smart candidate would do it while they are considering. wanting to be president should make one wonder about themselves.

just think of the suffering that would have been avoided if w and st ronnie had been examined in this way. even w the tools of the time, it would likely have at least excluded them from office.

i think that in this day and age we have some conclusive tools to answer some of these questions. there is a growing movement in the justice system to evaluate defendants for their neurological function.

a president elect should be examined for simple fitness before being inaugurated in the first place. perhaps this will be part of the legacy of the 2016 year of crazy- a 21st century understanding of crazy.


eta- and a full tox screen. like a convict.

[MADem]

138. You get a full physical and a tox screen to be an E-1 in the military--you'd think the Commander

in Chief should get the same "benefits," eh?

[elleng]

87. Coping with Chaos in the White House

"'A few days ago, I wrote a post for my Facebook friends about my personal experience with narcissistic personality disorder and how I view the president elect as a result. Unexpectedly, the post traveled widely, and it became clear that many people are struggling with how to understand and deal with this kind of behavior in a position of power. Although several writers, including a few professionals, have publicly offered their thoughts on a diagnosis, I am not a professional and this is not a diagnosis. My post is not intended to persuade anyone or provide a comprehensive description of NPD. I am speaking purely from decades of dealing with NPD and sharing strategies that were helpful for me in coping and predicting behavior. The text below is adapted from my original Facebook post.' >>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016171724

[Sunlei]

89. Republicans wanted an unfit, ill person in the presidents chair. So easy to dupe a dummy in a bubble

[blueseas]

91. There is a method to the madness - artlcle

SNIP:

"Tony Schwartz, Trump’s ghostwriter for his Art of the Deal best-seller that was the basis for his reality TV show “The Apprentice,” answered Trump’s Sunday tweets with: “Trump loses it whenever he feels vulnerable, which is often. Must recognize reality: We have a president-elect who is mentally unbalanced.”

And Evan McMullin, a Republican who ran as an independent candidate, responded to Trump’s “millions” of illegal votes tweet with the warning: “It should not go unrecognized that @realDonaldTrump’s effort to inflate his election performance without cause is typical of autocrats.”


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-false-tweets_us_583b97c4e4b000af95eeaf53

[Politicub]

95. I don't buy your armchair diagnosis

You could be right. But are you qualified to make a determination?

I have two other problems with calling him mentally ill. The first is that it excuses his evil because he isn't able to help himself. The second is most mentally ill people deal with enough stigma already. They don't deserve to be lumped in with Trump.

Trump is calculating. He is cunning. He's a bigot with a dictator mentality. These are things we know about him. He may or may not be mentally ill.

[KingCharlemagne]

195. I'm definitely not qualified, other than from family experience, and that's hardly

qualification in the professional sense, as many posters have noted.

Still, there was something disquieting about this latest tweet about the 3 million illegal votes (maybe that there's not even a shred of evidence that this is true?). I lacked the vocabulary and professional qualifications to discuss it but felt I needed to verbalize this strong sense of disquiet.

I definitely appreciate your perspective and, in time, may come to share it.

[Politicub]

196. Trump's entire campaign has been disquieting

I'm not sure where to draw the line between a spoiled rich man with dictator ambitions and mental illness.

But I'm going to dig into the research and see what psychologists thought about Mussolini, Franco and Lenin. Should make for some interesting reading.

[cab67]

96. I can easily see Trump becoming a liability.

No president elected in my lifetime - and that includes Nixon - stood a greater chance of being forced out in disgrace before his term is up than Trump. I'm not saying it's likely, but given his inability to control himself, it's only a matter of time before his behavior causes a serious diplomatic crisis, leads to a libel lawsuit, or crosses the line between protected free speech and a threat.

When that happens, I can envision congressional Republicans wanting him gone.

[bdamomma]

102. He qualifies

as being not well. I work in psychiatric hospital and all the symptoms being displayed are there. He is mentally unfit. Will Congress stop this man? Well they need to.

[loyalsister]

147. I know a lot of people who are intellectually lazy

entitled, and uninterested in anything but their own self interest. It's an USA trait driven by wealth worship and a belief in individualism, not mental illness. Only an individual who has examined and diagnosed Trump would have enough credibility to suggest it.

[BainsBane]

104. You know, a lot of people have mental illness

but aren't raging assholes like Trump.

[bdamomma]

108. K&R

His office in NY has pictures all over with his picture he is sick SOB.

[Gothmog]

110. Trump is very unstable and is not fit to be POTUS

[Hekate]

115. Mad King Donald in his golden tower, raving at the "unfairness" of it all....

He is surrounded by GOPers who thought they could control him. Good luck with that, fellas.

[womanofthehills]

123. Dr Hahn - she sure describes Trump in her videos

Dr. Rhoda Hahn - She is really good. Has videos on all the personality disorders.

[deek]

129. You're correct n/t

.

[Dream Girl]

133. King Lear

[Angry Dragon]

140. The Candidate: What do I do now??

Pence will be president within 2 years

[rollin74]

144. Pence still scares me more than Trump

as nutty as Trump is, I would still rather he serve out the term to prevent a scenario where Pence takes over

[Sugarcoated]

146. I wish I had a dollar for every time I said that

over the past year and a half. He's not right in the head, seriously mental.

[lindysalsagal]

148. You're describing my 80 year old mother:

"saying incredibly hateful things, words completely at odds with the parent my friends thought they knew before dementia set in."

It lasted for an hour before I finally was able to get in the car and drive away. No idea if/when she came out of it.

Until you see/hear it yourself, it's hard to believe.

Having said that, I don't think that's where fRump is: I think he's just a stupid hateful self-centered man/child who's never been told "no."

Liars aren't crazy: They lie because it works.

[malaise]

151. Rec #100

You're way too kind

[bdamomma]

152. He could have this too.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/basics/symptoms/CON-20023204

Borderline Personalty Disorder.

[itsrobert]

153. Looks like dementia to me

Probably due to a sexually transmitted disease.

[AngryAmish]

155. He looks like a chimp.

[Barack_America]

156. A diagnosis is besides the point, it is his ACTIONS that matter.

Leave why he does what he does to those who know him.

It what he does that proves he is unfit for the presidency. Judge him by that.

[Generic Brad]

159. He doesn't suffer mental illness

On the contrary, he is enjoying his mental illness immensely.

[doc03]

160. I thought that would be obvious to anyone that wasn't mentally ill

themselves. But, somehow people voted for him. I think if the election was held over today Hillary would win in a landslide.
I think a lot of people voted for him as a protest and had no idea he would win. Like the Brexit vote after it passed they
started having second thoughts.

[Martin Eden]

164. Trump is a narcissist and most likely a sociopath as well

But I sincerely doubt he believes most of what he tweets.

Trump is a talented demagogue who knows his supporters will soak up what he spews even though people in the fact based world can see him for the pathological liar that he is.

[CaptainTruth]

165. I feel like Trump did what GW Bush did ...

Bush (& his advisors, mainly) picked Cheney as VP. Did anyone else notice how, as Bush pushed the #PNAC Iraq invasion rhetoric, & more people started talking about how dangerous he was & he should be removed from office ... suddenly they brought Cheney out from the shadows, they put Cheney front & center, & everything Cheney said was 10x crazier than what Bush was saying? (All orchestrated by Rove, I'm sure.) As I said 100 times before, Cheney was Bush's life insurance policy. Now we have Pence. I would love to see Trump impeached, but if that leaves us with POTUS Pence? Oh hell no. Pence is an ideologue, he could do far more damage tham Trump.

So now, Pence is Trump's life insurance policy.

[DesertRat]

167. Rob Reiner agrees with you

‏
Rob ReinerVerified account
@robreiner
Calls reporters pretending to be someone he's not,pathologically lies,exhibits epic narcissism. Our future POTUS is mentally ill. #unhinged
https://twitter.com/robreiner/status/803435676674899968

[Liberty Belle]

168. Trump's father had Alzheimer's, FYI.

[McCamy Taylor]

174. Agree. But it is probably a personality disorder.

[kebob]

175. Naw

He's just batshit fucking crazy. (I think old terminology makes things clearer.)

[Dorian Gray]

179. I don't know about mental illness

I'll leave that to his doctors.

But he certainly has absolutely no impulse control.

[Stellar]

192. So, what do we think about the people that elected him...

out in our country trying to do harm to people because they want their country back.

[KingCharlemagne]

197. That is a damned good question. I think 1/2 are what Hillary diplomatically

called "deplorable" (racist, sexist). it is the other half of whom I'm uncertain. I suspect many of them believed with greater or lesser degrees of faith that they were voting for "Change," without regard for what that vaguely-defined term might actually mean.

[KingCharlemagne]

199. Kicking for updates from the past 24 hours - nt