A little help understanding Fast and Furious controversy.

[Baitball Blogger]

I still don't understand who's on first.

I'm trying to figure out what the Republicans are upset about. Do they want to know how the Feds figured out how the gun walking policy started? I got that impression from the paragraph below:

"In a letter to the committee chairman, Darrell Issa of California, a Justice Department official said the executive privilege applies to documents that explain how the department learned there were problems with an investigation in Arizona of gun-running into Mexico, called Operation Fast and Furious."

So, Issa wants to know how the Fed found out about the gun running in Mexico? Could it be because Operation Fast and Furious was started under George Bush's regime?

"Gun-walking has long been barred by Justice Department policy, but federal agents in Arizona experimented with it in at least two investigations during the George W. Bush administration before Fast and Furious. These experiments came as the department was under widespread criticism that the old policy of arresting every suspected low-level "straw purchaser" was still allowing tens of thousands of guns to reach Mexico. A straw purchaser is an illicit buyer of guns for others."

I really don't know what the trouble is. Sounds like the Feds know who is responsible and they don't want to make the leaks worse by releasing the names of their sources to congressmen who may give the info to the wrong people.

But I could be wrong.

Sources from: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-20/news/sns-ap-us-fast-and-furious_1_executive-privilege-justice-dept-documents

[tularetom]

1. Once again the administration has failed to blame their predecessors

and consequently finds itself on the defensive.

You would think they'd have learned this by now.

[Baitball Blogger]

2. You can't win elections if you miss the easy ones.

[hahahareally]

3. exactly. The Obama admin should have released the docs showing the involvement of the Bush admin.

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

12. The connection between F&F and Operation Wide Receiver are extremely flimsy or nonexistent.

Yo, first post, don't hate on me too much. I've been a reader for a while and finally figured I would come share my opinions.

Operation Wide Receiver was started in 2006 during the Bush administration and lasted until late 2007. It was in cooperation with the Mexican authorities. It was deemed a failure due to the inability to follow the ~650 weapons which were allowed to "walk" across the border. In October of 2007, the operation was shut down at the request of William Hoover, ATF Assistant Director.

In 2009, Operation Fast and Furious was started. This operation began without the consent of the Mexican government, unlike Wide Receiver. Also, in its 2 year span of operation, >2000 weapons were sold. Another issue at heart here is the fact that a Border Patrol agent was shot and killed with weapons sold during this operation.

IMO, the problem with using EP in this instance makes it appear that they are hiding something. Also, depending on what grounds they decide to claim EP, they may indirectly bring to light any possible lies told to Congress.

I'm quite interested to see how this all plays out.

[MADem]

13. You do not know what is in these documents. Giving them to Congress could get people KILLED.

EP is appropriate.

As Chris Matthews says, Darryl Issa is trying to pull a STOP AND FRISK on Holder. Fuck Issa.

This is a partisan attempt to capture the news cycle and give RMoney something to babble about. It WILL fail.

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

14. That is quite true.

The questionable aspect is that they did not just simply use EP at the beginning. The reason it appears shady is that EP was used as a last ditch effort before the Holder contempt vote.

[MADem]

17. I think the fact that they didn't use EP until the security of the documents was actually at risk

speaks WELL for them.

You're saying you'd rather they PREEMPTIVELY classify everything willy-nilly, like J. Edgar Hoover...."just in case?"

That's not transparent.

The Republicans are going after Holder because they view him as a Stand In Punching Bag for Obama. They'd best check themselves before they wreck themselves...IMO.

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

19. That isn't what I am saying at all. I'm speaking from a "public perception" perspective.

If the president would have used EP at the beginning at stated that it involved elements of national security, there would have been some gnashing of teeth, but it would have died down very quickly and ultimately have been forgotten by a public who spends 99% of its time caring more about American Idol than politics.

It all hinges on what Obama bases his claim of EP. The only possible route is to state that it is a national security issue, and the Republicans will more than likely ask him to back up his claim in court. If it goes to court, it could get very, very messy.

Also, at least IMO, EP is, in and of itself, the opposite of transparency, no matter how you slice it. I am not a fan of it unless it truly involves some form of extreme national security risk.

[MADem]

23. Don't you get it? If it wasn't this, it would be something else. The GOP is desperate to find

something to get "poutraged" about. They have all these assholes desperately seeking to find something to capture the nation's interest....EWWWWW...Obama got a couple of federal agents KILLLED!!!! EWWWWWW!!! He's a BAAAAAAD MAAAN!!! That's what they are looking for in terms of a reaction--and a few nitwits, some with agendas, some just not seeing the forest for the trees, are buying the bullshit.

If this goes to court, it will be delayed and obfuscated for a year or more. And the GOP will LOSE.

All that's needed is for a savvy, photogenic, appealing, articulate and compelling retired agent to go on TV and say "I can't say anything to ENDANGER THE LIVES OF FEDERAL AGENTS, but EP is ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE IN THIS INSTANCE." Then...poof. The Strum und Drang would stop. The GOP would have to find another thing to pout about.

Then again, as long as the GOP are spinning on this shit, they're not paying attention to other matters or trying to dig dirt in other gardens. That's something that can be exploited, and likely will be. It's like the hyperventilating over Terri Schiavo, but with guns...lots of drama, tons of bullshit...and no bang, just a whimper and a lot of "What the fuck were those idiots thinking?" at the end of the day.

These GOP bozos had better get cracking, too, if they really want to create some drama--summer "recess" is coming up soon, and those little assholes love to go shopping in Europe while pretending to "inspect" military bases and hold Gov-to-Gov "conferences."

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

24. The fact that the Republicans would look for anything and everything to condemn...

the Democrats with, does not mean that this is automatically a nonissue. A federal agent was murdered due to a gun running operation which involved a foreign country that was not told about said operation. That in and of itself is pretty damning.

Who knows how it will turn out though? Like I said earlier, this whole thing has piqued my interest.

[MADem]

30. That is NOT NEWS. That is also not what this witch hunt is about, either.

What ISSA is asking for has nothing to do with that.

He's asking for internal documents related to the interdepartmental DOJ investigation, not documents associated with F/F management.

I'll believe Elijah Cummings before I believe anything that bullshitter Darryl Issa said--and anyone with a brain in their head should too.

[Bolo Boffin]

38. "A federal agent was murdered due to a gun running operation" -- Bullshit.

Prove to me right now that F&F weapons were the only source of drug cartel weaponry. That's the only way you can make such a statement. Produce your evidence right now or go troll somewhere else.

[sarisataka]

41. Circumstantial evidence is strong

that is was an F&F gun supplied to the cartels

On the evening of December 14, 2010, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and others were patrolling Peck Canyon, Santa Cruz County, Arizona, 11 miles from the Mexican border. The group came across five suspected illegal immigrants. When they fired non-lethal beanbag guns, the suspects responded with their own weapons, leading to a firefight. Agent Terry was shot and killed; four of the suspects were arrested and two AK-pattern rifles were found nearby. The rifles were traced to Fast and Furious within hours of the shooting, but the bullet that killed Terry was too badly damaged to be linked to either gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

[Bolo Boffin]

43. And F&F weapons were the only ones available to the cartels? You can prove this?

Or would these guys have grabbed two other weapons as they headed out to do whatever it is they were to do?

[Lurks Often]

69. Irrelevant to the issue at hand

there is ballistic evidence that bullet that killed Border Patrol Agent came from one of 2 guns, both of which were sold as part of the ATF operation Fast & Furious.

That makes ATF complicit in his death and when Agent Terry's family's case makes it to trial, the argument that the criminals would have gotten some other guns from somewhere else will make no difference when the US Government is found civilly liable for Agent Terry's death

[Bolo Boffin]

76. The fact that far more weapons were at hand for the cartels to use is irrelevant?

How strange. Because Terry would be just as dead today if no guns had walked in the Fast and Furious operation. The guys who killed him would have picked up another couple of weapons that day.

If you can prove those cartel members would have had no other access whatsoever to any other weapons without Fast and Furious, I'll buy your notion that the ATF is complicit in this. But you're not even going to attempt to do that, because you know it's impossible, if not ludicrous, to assert such a thing.

But without that, this notion about the ATF being complicit in Terry's death is pure bullshit. Issa's witchhunt is malarkey.

[Lurks Often]

78. You can't prove a negative:

"If you can prove those cartel members would have had no other access whatsoever to any other weapons without Fast and Furious, I'll buy your notion that the ATF is complicit in this."

Your argument has no merit. It is the same as saying "If I hadn't sold the crack on the street, some other drug dealer would have".

Just because the crack would be available regardless does not absolve you of your responsibility in selling it.

And if this is a complete withhunt, why the hell did DOJ stall this for 14 months into the summer right before a Presidential election? Damn stupid thinking as far as I can see.

And you are sadly mistaken if you think this won't gain traction.

[Bolo Boffin]

79. No, I don't envy your position at all.

Pumping bullshit based on idiotic assumptions would make me wring my hands in despair, too.

But that's your argument, that somehow ATF is singularly responsible for Terry's death. They didn't pull the trigger, they didn't buy or sell the guns, but somehow they are singularly responsible for Terry's death. Guns don't kill people, and people don't kill people, only government agencies kill people. Is this the new NRA slogan? It needs some work.

And the Allies who cracked Enigma are also responsible for the deaths that occurred because they found out some crucial information from the Germans and took no action?

[Lurks Often]

84. Yawn

And your position seems to be based on the idiotic assumption that there is no possible way that maybe, just maybe there is something to this investigation, based entirely on your dislike for Issa.

In other words, your responses are based strictly on emotion and that you have not the slightest interest in determining what the facts are. Feel free to put me on ignore and have a nice night.

[Bolo Boffin]

85. I have seen nothing to make me think there is anything to this investigation other than

the need of the Republicans to manufacture a scandal.

Feel free to present any actual evidence to the contrary. The death of Brian Terry is nothing but emotionalizing the issue, just like Operation Rescue waving their bloody fetus pictures around.

[Lurks Often]

87. From the LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/atf-fast-furious-sg,0,3828090.storygallery

and

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/article_15b75d99-19d0-5cf6-a3da-20e5fef45aaf.html

I will also point out that this operation would have required the cooperation of people in the FBI to override the NICS background check system to allow unqualified people to purchase a firearm.

[Bolo Boffin]

88. Oh, Jesus Fucking Christ.

Allow me to move the goalposts since you're going to fucking take me so literally. The operation was a problem and should never have happened. I've never seen anything that showed me ISSA'S investigation is about anything else but manufacturing a scandal for Republicans.

[Lurks Often]

93. Then there is no point in us continuing this conversation, is there. n/t

[DanTex]

44. Right, but the point is that there are tens of thousands of guns smuggled to Mexico from the US.

The F&F guns are a drop in the bucket. The fact that Terry was killed by a gun from F&F doesn't mean that he was murdered "due to a gun running operation". In reality, he was murdered using a gun that was lost track of during part of a botched sting operation, the purpose of which was to track gun smugglers and thereby prevent even more guns from the US from getting to Mexican drug cartels and being used to murder people like border patrol agents.

[sarisataka]

51. In theory

F&F was great, in practise a Charlie Foxtrot.

There was no plan to follow the weapons once they were in Mexico. When agents pointed out the flaws and IIRC question what happens when one of these weapons kills a U.S. citizen they were told to get with the program or go away, in essence.

Failure of this degree requires more than "Oops". If for no other reason than the memory of Brian Terry, so no U.S. LEO is ever killed by a weapon supplied to the killer by the U.S. Government.

[Bolo Boffin]

52. Brian Terry would be just as dead today if no F&F weapons had walked. n/t

[sarisataka]

53. You know that for sure?

Well hell, let's just drop NCIS and let anyone buy any gun. Gangbangers will have guns anyway so who cares. It would create jobs to just sell them directly.

in case anybody missed that

[Bolo Boffin]

56. Can you prove differently?

I'd like to see you try to show that the people who killed Brian Terry would have had no other access to any weapons if F&F weapons hadn't walked, but you go right on ahead. I think such a statement is absurd on the face of it, and Brian Terry's death being used politically like this is an outrage.

[sarisataka]

57. So you are ok that the ATF

helped arm the cartels and one of those guns returned to the US and may have been used to murder a ICE agent. No oversight needed. We can trust law enforcement always acts with our best interest in mind. Got it.

Sorry I am not as trusting of Big Brother

[Bolo Boffin]

58. I can get your bullshit from Free Republic, you know.

Your lame attempt to smear me is noted. I never said Terry's death wasn't awful and shouldn't have happened. But the idea that he is only dead because of F&F weaponry is ludicrous.

[sarisataka]

59. It does not matter to me

If the admin is Dem, or Rep. It cannot be disproved that an F& F gun killed him.
I would feel the same if the police botched a drug sting and put 20 kg of coke on the street.

Why would you NOT want to find who dropped the ball?

[Bolo Boffin]

77. And it cannot be proven that a F&F gun did kill Terry.

Two were found at the scene. The bullet that killed Terry was too damaged to provide ballistic evidence.

The fact remains: the cartels have much more access to illegal weapons than F&F. Terry would be just as dead today if those guns had never walked. Holder ended this program and has gone above and beyond in his cooperation with Congress' investigation.

[MADem]

71. It gets so boring when they try to change the subject rather than argue the issues.

The second you see the personal accusations, the "Well, so YOU are 'OK' with (fill in the blank--puppies being mutilated, murder on a grand scale, abolishment of chocolate ice cream)" rebuttal being trotted out, you can chalk up a debate win for yourself.

It's tortured longhand for "I got nuttin'!"

[Bolo Boffin]

82. Yeah, it's an attempt at argument by absurdity.

But since there's no rational reason to assert I believe the manufactured line, the attempt fails miserably. Nobody wants Terry to be dead here, except the person that shot him. That's where the blame for Terry's death should be fixed.

Unless Terry died by friendly fire. As far as I know, that's still a possibility. Will our fellow DUers so fond of the guns group drag the government over the coals for providing guns to their border agents in that case? We should probably not hold our breath to wait.

This whole Issa thing is a farce as you and I agree.

[MADem]

86. About the only people in DC who are posturing about that death blatantly seek political gain.

I have a feeling Darryl Issa will be crying yet again when this is in his rear view mirror.

[mattclearing]

49. Welcome to DU!

Thanks for joining the discussion.

You probably already know that there is a tendency to look at serious matters through an exclusively political lens here. Thanks for reminding us that while the reaction is politically motivated, this would still be important absent an impending election.

[Dr. Strange]

20. People have already been killed.

And as far as I can tell, then only one who's been fired or held accountable in any way is Vince Cefalu--and he's the one who helped expose the crap that was going on.

Holder should have dealt with this LONG ago, and it's his failure to do so that's giving Issa (and Romney) what they want.

[MADem]

25. DUH. And who knows who, still living, is named in those documents?

Not me. Not you. You wanna kill more people to make Darryl Issa happy?

Justice or any other agency should not "preemptively" "deal with this" or anything else--that is NOT how we are supposed to do business as a nation. You respond to issues when they become issues, not before.

I don't want my government hiding material or hyper-classifying "just in case." That's just absurd. Bill Clinton rolled that shit back, and good thing, too.

Each case on its merits.

I'm not worried about RMoney. You shouldn't be, either.

Issa is bucking for a cabinet job, that's why he's carrying water for that shitbird.

Jeez--step back and have a look at the big picture. It's OBVIOUS what this grandstanding is all about. It's entirely partisan horseshit; without merit.

So chill out, relax, ease up on the angst and concern. It doesn't matter how Congress votes. This issue is a horse that will not carry the load, no matter how hard the GOP tries to beat it. It will turn around, drop a ton of horseshit on them, and die atop them, crushing them, when all is said and done.

[Lurks Often]

68. Supposition on your part

absent us know what is in the remaining documents we have no proof one way or the other that releasing those documents would endanger American law enforcement agents, undercover agents or informants.

While I agree that it is a possibility, Congress still has oversight and while the Executive Branch can ask and perhaps even insist that only a select few on the Committee can see that classified information, I don't believe it can refuse completely.

I also disagree that it will take years to work through the Judicial system, I suspect that it will be fast tracked, either to the applicable US Circuit Court or more likely directly to the Supreme COurt.

[MADem]

70. The President knows. I trust his judgment before I trust Crybaby Issa's.

Holder has met with Congress eight or nine times.
He has given them nearly ten thousand documents.
Issa keeps trying to get another, and another, and another bite of the apple. Death by a thousand chomps is what he is aiming for.

This is a witch hunt, along the lines of what the GOP did to Clinton.

Obama ain't playing. He is nipping that shit in the bud. Good for him.

The Republicans in Congress can try to take Holder to court. Let's see how that works out for them!

I'll take that "fast track" bet. Who's in the catbird seat when it comes to judicial "fast tracking?" Not the Republican Partisan Witch hunters in Congress.

I'm ready to do plenty of whistling and whittling, should it even come to that, and I'm not convinced it will. I'd urge you to be prepared for a bit of "hurry up and wait" because this ain't happening fast...or furious.

[Lurks Often]

80. I'll post part of another answer of mine in response to you:

if this is a complete witch hunt, why the hell did DOJ stall this for 14 months into the summer right before a Presidential election? Damn stupid thinking as far as I can see.

And you are sadly mistaken if you think this won't gain traction. Regardless of what we might hope, this argument is going to be framed in 30 second sound bites by TV and most of those are going to boil down to:

Holder is hiding something. What is Holder hiding?

And if you think 95% of the population is going to exert themselves into looking further into the issue, you are either a lot more optimistic or a lot more naive then I am.

[Bolo Boffin]

81. If it wasn't this, the ads would say something else.

It would be "Solyndra: What's Obama Hiding?" Raking shit over the coals is what Issa does. That's his job. After unprecedented cooperation from the Justice Department, this is what Issa has decided to run with.

The intransigence and the fauxrage were always on the agenda. The only thing Issa and crew didn't know going into the President's term in office was the subject matter.

[MADem]

89. You apparently don't realize that Holder has tried--mightily--to cooperate with those clowns.

He's been to the Hill nine times and given them all relevant materials--thousands of pages, that I am entirely sure Issa and his bobbleheads have NOT even read.

They are NITPICKING for political gain, and Obama has had enough.

They don't have a "right" to sensitive information surrounding an INTERNAL (not having to do with operational aspects) investigation. The President isn't going to give it to them, in any event. They might try reading the seven to nine thousand pages they've already been given before trying to fuck with DOJ and demand more.

Summer is coming, people go to the beach, no one cares, Congress recesses, and this will blow over as a failed shot nowhere near the bow. If it's not creating jobs, people aren't going to focus on an angry sweaty GOP crybaby yelling disrespectfully at our first black Attorney General, save to think the crybaby is an ass.

Holder isn't hiding a goddamned thing. He's just not giving Issa information on individuals that Issa's staff will leak to right wing pig-papers so those people can be dogged and badgered for political reasons.

It's not rocket science.

[Lurks Often]

92. We disagree then n/t

[MADem]

96. Issa needs to stop asking for documents that Holder is legally prohibited from providing.

Issa does not have a 'right' to ongoing IG investigations, grand jury testimony and certain other sensitive materials, like the names and testimony of informants--and he knows it.

This is a witch hunt. It is politically motivated, and it's going to fail.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/June/12-ag-776.html

Please read the link and educate yourself on this issue.

Sure, let them go on and find the first Cabinet member since Janet Reno in contempt. The first black attorney general. And of course, Janet was a woman.

Yeah, that's the ticket. We know them by their deeds, and at whom they direct those deeds. Darryl Issa is doing a HECKUVA JOB making the GOP House look like a load of stupid asswipes who do not know the damn law.

[MrDiaz]

4. Although

It was started under the BUSH regime, it continued under the OBAMA administration, and it continued until they were caught. And now he is saying that any documents that have anything to do with "fast and furious" are to basically be classified. This is not a good precedent to set, imagine if the repukes ever get into office again...don't you think they will abuse this?

[Tejas]

6. Holder wants to give Bush et al a free pass to avoid

subpoenas/prosecution/etc.

[Baitball Blogger]

8. You can count on them abusing it, regardless of what the Democrats do.

[MrDiaz]

9. Exactly my point

THIS IS BAD, nothing good will come of this, and because OBAMA has done this now the repukes will make this about his re-election.

[Baitball Blogger]

11. This may just be the Republican's only target prior to the election.

They want to fish around for information and they will blow anything out of proportion that they can find. Only after the election will anyone really be calm enough to review the information.

[MrDiaz]

31. they were trying to blow this up

It didn't happen until Obama did this.

[Baitball Blogger]

32. Apparently he decided to swat him with the back of his hand.

If he were Republican and white the Republicans would consider that a sign of strong leadership.

[MrDiaz]

34. he is not white or republican

He happens to be a african american democrat... does that mean it is ok for us to celebrate this?

[Baitball Blogger]

35. It means that it's good that we have a president who doesn't trust Republicans,

and will not make it easy for them to unseat him.

[MADem]

15. You think they haven't done this under BushCo?? Rip Van Winkle, is that you?

There's information in those documents that might get people killed, I suspect, and the Obama administration doesn't trust those Republicans from outing people like they did Valerie Plame.

You can get questions answered without playing the "document grab" game. This is all about the news cycle, and people who are desperate for good news (that would be the GOP) are desperate for this story to take hold.

[Tejas]

5. Two federal agents are dead.

[Bolo Boffin]

39. Got proof F&F weapons were the only guns the drug cartels had available? n/t

[Tejas]

62. What kind of ignorant question is that?

What is your point, that Brian Terry isn't as dead as he could be?

[Bolo Boffin]

73. Because if the cartels have access to more weapons than just F&F

then the guys who killed Terry would have just picked up another couple of guns and Brian Terry would still be dead.

Guns don't kill people, after all, right?

[Tejas]

91. But that is not what happened, now is it?

[Bolo Boffin]

94. Without F&F weapons, it's what would have happened. n/t

[msongs]

7. you are forgetting, this is the government of transparency lol nt

[clang1]

10. re: you are forgetting, this is the government of transparency lol nt

and protecting whistleblowers. Ummm....

[MADem]

16. And protecting the names of federal agents who may or may not be still undercover....

But hey, the Republicans don't give two shits about that kind of thing.

Ask VALERIE PLAME.

LOL, indeed. She didn't think it was very fucking funny.

[former9thward]

18. Two federal employees were killed by these guns.

DOJ guns. Not drug cartel guns. Guns supplied by our government. This is wrong and any involved should be fired.

[MADem]

27. Nooooooo.....really? Who knew?

Please. Tell us something we don't know.

Giving Darryl Issa additional documents on top of the thousands he's already gotten will not resurrect those guys.

[former9thward]

60. Exactly what Bush would have said about WMD documents.

They aren't going to resurrect the dead.

[MADem]

66. No it isn't. The two issues are not consonant with one another.

This is a partisan witch hunt and a rolling investigation, and anyone who cannot see that has some homework to do.

Go watch the news and learn a little something about this matter. You don't have the big picture.

[former9thward]

67. Tell that BS to the families of the two federal officers.

Tell them they have to look at that "big picture". I'm sure they will appreciate that.

[MADem]

72. Oh please--have you run out of talking points?

Do you think Darryl Issa gives a fuck about those guys?

I have a bridge to sell you. Great price, too.

Do you think Holder would have provided acres of documentation to Congress and clomped up the Hill nine times if he didn't give a shit about those two gentlemen?

You think the Republicans care anything for them, except for the political capital they hope to reap from their cold graves?

This is a partisan witch hunt, and Holder is the witch. You keep cheerleading for Darryl Issa if you'd like, though--the little crybaby will need a shoulder to cry on when his plans go wobbly. It goes a little like this (jump to the end):

[Hassin Bin Sober]

36. I thought guns didn't kill people? People kill people.

I guess it's different when conservative pigs are trying to blame the black guy.

[former9thward]

61. So its ok with you that we supply drug cartels with weapons.

Nice set of priorities you have.

[emilyg]

37. +1 Families deserve answers.

[Bolo Boffin]

40. Prove to me F&F weapons were the only ones available to the drug cartels.

Then maybe you'd have a point.

If the drug cartels had had no access to F&F weapons, those agents would be just as dead today.

[former9thward]

63. What a cynical reply.

How can anything be proven if Holder keeps the documents hidden? Show me those documents and then I will prove it for you.

[Bolo Boffin]

74. LOL, you think Holder's hiding evidence that the cartels had no other access to weapons

besides F&F? What the fuck else could your idiotic rebuttal mean?

Face facts. With no F&F weapons available, the guys who killed Terry would have picked up a couple of other weapons and Terry would still be dead. Issa's witchhunt is based on foolishness and you're completely buying it.

[Tejas]

64. So the F&F weapons had no impact?

Your point is moot, but keep parroting it in this thread.

[Bolo Boffin]

75. The F&F weapons were a drop in the bucket for the problem of guns moving over the border, yes.

Would you like figures on that?

[JoePhilly]

21. Actually, Holder has turned over documents that are directly related to the F&F program.

The program started under Bush, and a boarder agent got killed after Obama took office. Holder, now aware of the program shut it down.

Issa is trying to force the administration to turn over documents that have nothing to do with the actual program, but have to do with the DOJs internal investigation and debates about it afterward. Issa is trying to expand the scope of the investigation.

Early in the congressional investigation, the DOJ turned over a document that was in error. When the DOJ realized the document was in error, they went back to congress and told them it was inaccurate, and fixed the error. Issa is using that error to demand that around 80k additional documents be turned over ... basically so he can try to find some other error, so he can demand more documents and again widen his investigation.

Think back to Clinton, whitewater, congressional investigations of Clinton's behavior when he was Governor. The House GOP would start with one investigation, and then try to expand the scope of the investigation. If they found any loose thread, they tried to pull it.

That's what Issa is doing.

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

22. Where did you find the info that Wide Receiver continued on to become F&F?

I really am trying to find the info and I can't. The only information that I can find state that Operation Wide Receiver was shut down in 2007 and F&F was started in 2009.

I would really like a link for reference. TIA.

[JoePhilly]

45. Part of the confusion is that the F&F operation, and its predicessor operations

have a wide set of names ...

For instance, much of F&F started under something called ... "Project Gunrunner", which started in 2005. That (Project Gunrunner) took place under a larger umbrella called the Southwestern Boarder Initiative. This page on wikipedia has a pretty good summary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner#cite_note-npr1-1

If you read down through it, you will see that there were a number of related operations underway. So the history can get muddy depending on which operation name you refer to and at what time.

This is a good AP article on it.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20111015_13_A10_WASHIN703082

I suspect that aspects of this were driven not at the top of the DOJ or the ATF, but by the AZ office of the ATF. Basically, they took the mandate to "track" guns, and then expanded it some to include the intentional transfer of weapons with the intent of tracking. AZ already seems to believe that it can do what ever it wants to enforce immigration and boarder issues. So this would not be much of a surprise.

[sarisataka]

47. It appears, from what is public

That Southwestern Border Initiative had Project Gunrunner under it. Operations Wide Receiver and F&F where implementations of Gunrunner.

It is hard to see AZ running this completely on their own. D.C. would have to be made aware of at least outlines of the operations, if not details. Also if AZ was running all of this on their own, it shouldn't be hard to find the time-honored 'sacrificial goat' and end all of the controversy.

[JoePhilly]

50. I don't think AZ ran it "all on their own".

Having worked in larger organizations, in which there are broad strategic initiatives, under which multiple supporting operations come into existence, and then are carried about by multiple "peer" departments, you see lots of deviation at the detail level.

Also, it is easy to imagine that the DOJ under Bush allowed greater freedom at that detail level out in the field. Once an organization starts down a path, even after you change leaders or executives, they often continue to move forward with a certain amount of inertia. I've seen plenty of instances in which a team continues to do what they see as "business as usual" by simply changing the terms they use to describe what they've always done.

If you want to know how to tell this is all politically motivated, all you have to do is ask the question "Why is the committee NOT bringing in Bush administration officials who started the program in the first place?" Because to do so would remove the focus from Holder. And Issa wants to throw the entire mess in Holder's lap.

[sarisataka]

55. I could see the idea

"Hey Wide Receive caught some minnows; let's do something bigger" come up through the carry over bureaucracy. Was it approved at AZ level because 'we did it before' i.e. somebody stepped into big britches or did a D.C. flunky give the go ahead?

[MADem]

28. And WHOOOOOOP---there it is!! +1. nt

[DanTex]

26. The Republicans think it was all a conspiracy theory in order to justify new gun control laws.

Yes, I'm serious, that's what they think. The theory goes like this.

Eric Holder (or Hillary Clinton, or maybe even Obama) secretly wants to take away everyone's guns. But they can't just come out and say that. So instead, what they do is they hatch a conspiracy, which involves getting the ATF to help gun runners smuggle AK-47s into Mexico. Then, these guns will show up at Mexican crime scenes and get traced back to the US. That will provide the critical evidence that American guns are escalating the drug cartel violence in Mexico, which the Obama administration will then use to call for banning guns in the US.

There are obvious problems with this theory, aside from its looniness. For one, guns from the US already are fueling the Mexican drug wars even without Fast and Furious -- the number of smuggled guns traced back to the US from Mexico is enormous. For another, these kinds of operations actually started under the Bush administration.

Anyway, this is the Fast & Furious conspiracy theory that's circling among right-wing crazies. It's the new birtherism.

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

29. Yea, CBS reported on that in December last year.

Link

"In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information."

[DanTex]

33. Reported on what?

The only news outlet that suggested F&F might be a conspiracy to enact gun laws was FOX News. You do realize that the fact that the ATF used intel gained from F&F is different from the theory that the purpose of F&F was to build up a propaganda campaign.

In the end, F&F is not much of a scandal. Yes, there were mistakes and questionable decisions in an ATF gun trafficking investigation, and it did end up costing lives. But the reason Republicans are in a frenzy is that (a) they live in constant fear that liberals are going to come up with some conspiracy to take away their guns (b) they hate the ATF, and would like to see it weakened in any way they can and (c) they are trying to find a scandal to pin on Obama.

[sarisataka]

46. From CBS

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as &quot A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

Look at the dates. Early on the ATF was looking at using F&F sales by dealers cooperating with ATF to create demand letter 3. Combine that with the less-than-transparent DOJ it gives the conspiracy theorists a lot of meat to work with.
Obama citing EP now gives them the opportunity to bring him in as well.

It pitches LaPierre a soft one for his next scaremonger statement.

[DanTex]

48. Again, using information from F&F is totally different.

The fact that they used information from F&F after F&F had already occurred is completely different from the conspiracy theory that F&F was devised by Holder/Clinton/Obama in order to "inflate the numbers" of guns being trafficked to Mexico.

There are a lot of things that conspiracy theorists at the NRA or NSSF might seize on. They're the gun lobby.

[sarisataka]

54. The ATF was talking about

Demand letter 3 and using F&F sales in 2010. F&F ran until 2011. And why use ATF approved sales to justify long gun sales reporting?

That is what the conspiracy people grab onto and won't let go. At this point I doubt they would accept any explaination but it could have been handled better from the start.

To be clear, I don't think F&F was a conspiracy for stricter control or even using the data to support letter 3 originated in D.C. It is just a matter of who makes decisions on major operations? What accountability is there when one goes bad?

[Tejas]

65. You mean the so-called "study" by Schumer and Feinstein?

What a coincidence, funny that.

[slackmaster]

42. It's all about politics, in an election year

The Rs will do anything and everything to try to make the President look bad.

So, Issa wants to know how the Fed found out about the gun running in Mexico? Could it be because Operation Fast and Furious was started under George Bush's regime?

The goal is to embarrass the President. It's that simple.

[Bolo Boffin]

83. Just found this out at Americablog: NRA is scoring the Holder contempt vote

That's right: in order to get the coveted 100% NRA seal of approval this year, you have to vote to hold Holder in contempt.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/233737-nra-to-score-house-contempt-vote-on-holder

This isn't about crazy gun nuts thinking Obama wants to take away our guns at all, no sirree bob.

[MADem]

90. Well, as Gomer would say "Sur-Prize, Sur-PRIZE!" Great find!!!! nt

[ProgressiveEconomist]

95. Read the excellent WIKIPEDIA article on "gunwalking", at URL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal .

IMO we should be using the term "Project Gunrunner" for the whole series of "gunwalking" operations the Bush Administration started in 2006. IMO the Republicans focus on "Operation Fast and Furious" because it began as a rogue Phoenix ATF effort in the fall of 2009, after President Obama was inaugurated.

IMO Republicans are against anything that puts gun trafficking in a bad light, in order to motivate the the NRA part of their base to go to the polls in droves. Republicans now just want--at any cost--to keep this story in the headlines until the first Tuesday of November.