General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWho here has ever had something they've done labelled "treason" by the right wing?
I am appalled at the Russian hacking and believe it should be fully and aggressively investigated and that when the results of that investigation are known, such legal action as may be appropriate should be taken.
But I'm exceedingly wary of the loose use of the labels "treason" and "traitor" in connection with the Russian hacking. Of course, quick draw allegations that someone has engaged in "treason" are pretty old hat on DU.
So why am I wary? Well, for starters its because I've seen that term applied loosely by those on the other side of the spectrum. As someone who marched against the Vietnam War, I have heard that I was giving aid and comfort to the enemy by doing so. As someone who sought out various ways of avoiding the draft, some illegal, I heard again that my doing so was treason as was the assistance of those who would help me find ways to avoid serving. I've had family members be caught up in the red scare of the 50s -- caught up in the McCarthy witch hunt simply because they did not share the right wing's paranoia about the Soviet Union. I've seen others have their careers threatened and sometimes ruined because by going to Russia and meeting with communist officials, they were alleged to be giving aid and comfort to an enemy. I've watched Jane Fonda be vilified for her activities during the Vietnam War.
The treason label is a slippery slope. What constitutes an enemy? Is Russia an enemy? It certainly is true that we are not aligned with them on many many things. But we have diplomatic relations with them. Are they more of an enemy now than they were during the Stalin years or even later when they were engaged in covert espionage against the United States (as we were against them)? Is China our enemy for purposes of the treason clause because they too have engaged in cyber attacks against the US government and its citizens? Same for Iran (apart for other reasons that they might be considered our enemy). At what point does trying to build a different relationship with an enemy become aid and comfort? Indeed, what are the boundaries of "aid and comfort"?
The Russian hacking is an extreme case, but its still far from clear to me that it would or should be considered treason under the limited scope that provision was intended to have by the drafters of the Constitution. And for those that are inclined to echo the John Birch Society by labeling me "Comrade" for expressing these doubts, I can only suggest they return to their history books.
If the investigation into the Russian hacking warrants it, there will be a variety of measures that can be taken both against Russia and against individuals who may have conspired with or assisted them. Whether those measures include charging anyone with treason is something not yet possible of being known.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)the Iraq war.
onenote
(42,829 posts)cry baby
(6,682 posts)I think that those that knew about Russia hacking and said nothing are close to that threshold...but we shall learn more in time, and I'll make my (less than expert) conclusion.
onenote
(42,829 posts)Skittles
(153,275 posts)they hated Hillary so much THEY APPROVE OF THE RUSSIAN HACKING
any more proof needed repukes are TREASONOUS?
onenote
(42,829 posts)was thought by some to evidence of his anti-American leanings.
Russia wasn't our friend during the cold war. They're not our friend now. But not everyone who looks the other way at the bad things the Russians do or spins their behavior in a favorable light is a traitor.
Skittles
(153,275 posts)END OF STORY
onenote
(42,829 posts)If the head of state of a foreign government makes a public endorsement of a particular candidate with the intent of influencing the outcome of the election, and the supporters of that candidate approve of that endorsement, are they traitors?
Maybe the story is more complicated. Which is why the history of treason cases in this country is very limited.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)onenote
(42,829 posts)given them to the Russians and they had openly said, hey, someone gave us a bunch of emails and we're making them public because they help the candidate we are here publicly endorsing, would that make it okay? Of course not.
But these distinctions can get very slippery when you're talking about "treason."
Was everyone who defended the Rosenbergs traitors? Hell, even the Rosenbergs weren't charged with treason. (Of course, many people have argued that the Rosenbergs weren't guilty of espionage, but that's a different debate).
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)No. But they have behaved badly and accepted the help of our common opponent to win an election.
Not traitors. Scum !!!
onenote
(42,829 posts)Scum may actually be too nice a term for them.
Skittles
(153,275 posts)*DONE HERE*, this is POINTLESS
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)I wore a black arm band as a twelve year old kid on Moratorium Day. Loyal opposition is the duty of a citizen in a liberal democracy. That being said if I invited Hồ Chí Minh or Võ Nguyên Giáp to meddle in our elections I would be getting pretty close to treasonous.
And, no draft resistance, even illegal draft resistance isn't treasonous but it can be illegal.
BigDemVoter
(4,158 posts)I loathe them ALL.
onenote
(42,829 posts)But the pendulum swings, which is why its tricky to start labeling things "treason" before all the facts are developed.
petronius
(26,611 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)DUer U4ikLefty and I were accosted by a couple of young (late 20s) RW guys who saw our signs when we went to lunch after the Rose Bowl protest and rally.
They stopped by our table to make some comments, then followed us outside when we left. One stuck a dollar bill in the back of my shirt collar and told me to get a job. I happen to be retired, including a 50% Army disability retirement for Vietnam combat wounds while serving as an Army Infantry officer.
My guess is that the guys calling us traitors never served their country.