Have we arrived at the point where the "average American" is just too damn

[Atticus]

ignorant to function effectively as a citizen in a democracy?;

Seems that too many are not only incapable of critical thought, they don't even understand or care what the term means. You can discuss Hillary's "shortcomings" as much as you want, but if over 62 million of our fellow Americans weren't willfully existing in a make-believe universe created by Alex Jones, Hannity and Rush, she'd be our next president.

How do you educate the willfully ignorant?

[BeyondGeography]

1. You don't have them spend their days on social media, that's for sure

Remember when the Internet was basically for nerds? People were happier then, less riled up and smarter, too.

[Willie Pep]

43. I agree with you.

There was a time when I thought that the Internet would open up a world of knowledge and allow people to be more enlightened but that has not happened. In fact people seem less informed than before.

"In general, those who got their news from TV news, social networks or internet news aggregators were less informed than those who get their news from radio or newspapers."

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/narrow-casting-news-feed-stupid

For some people the Internet might open up more possibilities to be informed, but I suspect that these people would be well-informed anyway, even without the Internet. But most people seem more likely to gravitate toward junk. How many people watch Alex Jones versus Bill Moyers?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

54. So very disappointing, but I suppose not surprising. Too many people are

drawn to junk and drama. It's happened in most media that the lowest common denominator is pandered to, which then further lowers the standards and taste of the masses. News of the World and National Enquirer had massive circulation rates, mindless sitcoms and "reality" tv are incredibly popular, and sensationalist, bigoted BS infotainment has taken over what used to be the news on tv.

[bettyellen]

51. Network news is highly RW politicized in the flyover states now

Very different than it was 20-30 years ago. Sinclair is part of the problem- broadcasting pre packaged propaganda and interrupting news programming to show it.

[nycbos]

2. Here are some relevant quotes.

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

-Winston Churchill



“Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking. “

- Clement Attlee.

[calimary]

31. Welcome to DU, nycbos!

Two more for my quotes file!

On second thought, I think I might have the Churchill quote already. But it's a worthy repeat for sure. Thanks!

[nycbos]

46. Thank you

Been around for a bit.

I thoughtI should create a new account after the hack.

[LonePirate]

3. Yes! The massive ignorance in this country is simply astounding.

[FarCenter]

4. Always have been, but the sheep are beginning to herd like cats.

[Warpy]

5. Busting up the media conglomerates would be a good start

With real competition within a given area, there would also be a difference in ideas. Right now, the six mega corporations are acting monopolistic and anyone to the left of Mussolini is basically shut out of the system in most markets.

[Yavin4]

6. They're not ignorant. They're racist.

They're more afraid of losing their privileged position of being the majority race than they are about anything else including national security. They're more than happy to have Putin have influence in America so long as their racial status is maintained.

[Skittles]

8. HELLO

you have to BE ignorant to BE racist

[Maru Kitteh]

39. There is a whole movement of very educated racists.

Google Richard Spencer

By donning a suit and calling Nazism "alt-right" or "white nationalism," Spencer is able to slip past the expectation that real Nazis — who we're used to dismissing outright — are jackboot thugs with bald heads and imperial eagle tattoos, as writer and Techsdale director Andray Domise pointed out on Twitter Friday.

And it found a willing avatar in Milo Yiannopoulos, the exact opposite of what one expects from a neo-Nazi. Groomed, well-spoken, and gay. Yiannopoulos and his merry band cut against that image. Many are soft-spoken, well-dressed, and highly educated. Which makes them dangerous.

"Our equation of racism with white poverty has conditioned us to become surprised when a well-groomed white person with money or nice clothes is racist or shills racist policies — as if white wealth and white racism were somehow at odds," Mic's Zak Cheney Rice wrote of white supremacist ploys for respectability.

Today, normalization can mean magazine-style profiles that cast Spencer as a budding intellectual whose time has finally come, as many people on Twitter pointed out to criticize the Los Angeles Times' flattering social media portrayal.

more at link: https://mic.com/articles/160065/richard-spencer-neo-nazi-ideology-npi-white-nationalism-media-reactions#.ONOvW343p

Normalization of racism in the brave new Trump era.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

55. Exactly. This will get worse.

Normalization of everything that's wrong with Trump will occur and our nation will suffer greatly because of it.

[Maru Kitteh]

57. We once believed that educating these people was the answer. "They don't know any better"

was a comfort we paid ourselves to explain their behavior. We were wrong.

[mountain grammy]

28. Same thing.

[TurnTNBlue]

32. I disagree

Ignorance is the absence of knowledge. I don't think that it's a matter of them not knowing any better. I think that they do (in many cases) know that it's wrong but they are hard wired to act a certain way. There are many highly educated racists, no?

[mountain grammy]

35. Yes, there are, and as soon as I wrote that

I thought the same thing. There are many highly educated racists.

Maybe it's something we'd eventually evolve through, as each generation seems better than the last, or so we're told. Unfortunately, I think we'll extinct ourselves first. Pity.

[TurnTNBlue]

37. I don't think we will live to see it

How many generations does it take to break through the "My daddy said" and therefore I believe the same? It's 2016, right?
We are currently living in the year where we once thought there would be flying cars thanks to Back to the Future. But here we are and it looks no different than 1980 with the exception of advances in technology (yes, big advances) but the people have not changed very much. We could end up back in the 50's with regard to race relations (probably already are) so is this two steps forward and five steps back?

[calimary]

38. Welcome to DU, TurnTNBlue!

The hard-wired part - could be. After the massacre of those nine people at Mother Emanuel Church, there grew an outcry to take down the "Stars 'n' Bars," long on formal display at the Capitol. There was a lot of coverage of the history and tradition of the Civil War, slavery, Emancipation, and what was repeatedly referred to as "our heritage." Many in the South spoke of pride in their heritage, and many others confessed to embarrassment over their heritage. That came up a lot. You saw the young shooter in an earlier photo, at home, with that flag shown hanging on the wall behind him, for example. I'm in California and for the life of me I can't figure out why anybody'd be proud of that flag. It's a no-brainer to me. But then again, I've never lived in or grown up in that environment - where a flag like that is such a powerful, and in many cases personally evocative symbol. I've never walked in their shoes. So of course I won't be able to "get" how people there feel about it.

[TurnTNBlue]

40. I live in Tn and was born here

I was born in a tiny town in east Tennessee. I grew up in what most would consider to be the "country" and I do not, one single time, remember seeing a Rebel flag when I was a child. Zero.

And I never see the Rebel flag in my daily life. I'm not kidding. I saw it on display here and there when the whole "take it down" movement was going on but you just don't see that flag hanging all over the place. I travel to MANY parts of this state for work. And not just interstates and big cities. I never see the flag, anywhere. I get the impression that many people think we Tennesseans are all backwoods know-nothings. I am a gun guy. I shoot with one of my best friends and her wife on their property! They are the coolest ladies you would ever have the opportunity to meet. My best friend back in 2002 was a Muslim; funniest guy I've ever met. Unfortunately, life went on and we lost touch but I was at UTK at the time and he faced criticism after 9/11 and I back him one hundred percent both with words and with fists. Not trying to rant here but there are a lot like me around here so don't think this state is full of racists. Because it is NOT.

[Skittles]

7. I say we skip working on these fucking clueless idiots

and work on the people who failed to vote

[Buckeye_Democrat]

11. Do we have data to know that would help Democrats?

It's a sincere question based on some of my poor, less educated co-workers in the past who were clearly racist, but who thankfully had never registered to vote because they didn't want to deal with jury duty.

I suspect that most poor non-voters would vote Democratic, but do we have polls or anything else to base that on?

[Buckeye_Democrat]

15. Answering my own question after a Google search.

http://www.people-press.org/2012/11/01/nonvoters-who-they-are-what-they-think/

Nonvoters favor Barack Obama over Mitt Romney by a wide margin (59% to 24%). While most nonvoters (64%) have a favorable view of Obama, just half as many (32%) view Romney favorably.
By contrast, likely voters are evenly divided in Pew Research’s most recent national survey (47% Obama, 47% Romney). Nearly identical percentages of likely voters view Obama and Romney favorably (51% Obama, 52% Romney).

About half of nonvoters (52%) either identify as Democrats or lean Democratic; only 27% identify as Republicans or lean Republican.

[hay rick]

33. Exactly.

I believe the vast majority of Trump voters are morally and intellectually damaged beyond repair. They are firmly embedded in their Fox News alternate reality and beyond the reach of reasonable discussion. Also, they trend older so a disproportionate number will die off between elections. Time, money and effort are better invested elsewhere.

In Florida, I am working on getting Democrats to sign up for vote by mail. We did a vote by mail telephone chase in my county this year and got 93% turnout for those voters. We will expand that effort for 2018.

[Golden Raisin]

9. Excuse me. 'Keeping Up With The Kardashians' is on.

Gotta go.

[Nwgirl503]

10. It's not even social media

How do you debate someone who ignores proven fact while making up their own "facts"? There's literally no educating people who only choose to see what fits in their narrative. It's not going to happen. And anyone who thinks it is going to happen is living in fantasy world. You can't fight ignorance and hypocrisy with reality. Reality doesn't exist to these people.

[dumbcat]

12. We arrived there long ago

Only the members of DU are enlightened and intelligent enough to truly be shepherds of our democracy.

[cwydro]

45. Lol! nt

[yardwork]

13. Call me elitest but I'm wondering the same thing.

[ileus]

14. There's got to be a way to weed these people out of the voting public.

[TurnTNBlue]

16. Isn't that

Exactly what the Republicans are doing to minorities and we cry foul about it?

[ileus]

41. But we'd be doing it for the greater good...

Last edited Sun Dec 18, 2016, 10:53 AM - Edit history (1)

As you can read around here we know best. Our party is superior in all ways to their old racist American party, that's why we're the new progressive democratic party of America. We reject their America and they need to be forced (how I don't know) to accept it.

Of course we can just wait for all the old whites to die out and we'll get our way. It should have happened this election but sad to say our candidate didn't energize the less politically involved folks in our party.

[dumbcat]

62. So true. n/t

nt

[OldRedneck]

17. Yes, we are at that point . . .

. . . probably arrived at that point a few decades ago.

There are some people who need to realize that everything happens for a reason. And sometimes the reason is you are stupid and you made a bad decision.

[BigBearJohn]

18. Truest statement I've heard all year. nt

[TurnTNBlue]

19. Which statement?

I'm new here and I'm having a hard time following who is responding to whom. I see the response notification but do people always use it? I can't tell if you are responding to me or OP. Thanks, and what does "nt" mean?

[zentrum]

24. Hi Turn.

If there's a reply specifically to you, it will be slightly indented. Otherwise, the comment is directed at the main OP. Also, to see if anyone is replying specifically to you, you can also always click on the tab above that says "my posts"—then just follow the prompts.

"NT" stands for "no text". It's put in the "reply title" window, with a few other words, to signify to other readers that the NT-er thinks the post is worth promoting but doesn't have any text to add.

Welcome!

[Hekate]

25. nt means no text in body of post; the whole message is in the subject line.....

I use ellipses ....to indicate I have more to say, but that's just me.

To follow the thread of the discussion, scan the page from the top down. It proceeds kind of like a Roman Numeral outline. You can track the main topics, and within those, the subtopics that arise. If all you see are subject lines, look for View All at the end of the OP (Original Post) and click on that.

If you go away for awhile and someone responds to one of your statements, the My Posts tab on the upper right of your screen will light up in yellow. Go there and you will see which have been responded to. Click on those and you will be returned to that discussion.

KnR means Kick and Recommend, no other comment.

I hope this helps. Welcome to DU.

[progressoid]

26. BigJohnBear was responding to the OP.

Responses to the OP is listed below the OP. If someone responds to you should see their response indented. So your response to BigJohnBear is indented. And in turn my response to you is indented again.

NT means 'no text'. Meaning there is no text in the message box below the reply title. It's just a courtesy to save people time.

[Buzz Clik]

47. ..

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Make the media accountable....

And take it back from the corporations.

The news used to operate at a loss. It was a public service requirement for stations to earn their broadcasting license.

Now its a ratings driven show just like any other.

[moondust]

21. Germans got over Goebbels.

Hopefully it won't take a world war and millions dead to shake the "average American" out of his/her RW media-induced alternate reality.

[kimbutgar]

22. They have no idea of basic civics.

They think the president can wave a magic wand and things happens. They don't realize that rethugs obstructed all good things happening in the eight years of the obama presidency.

I really think that in order to vote you have to pass a 10 question basic civics test. Like driving you should have the knowledge to vote.

[Hekate]

23. "For my people are a stupid people," as I've been saying all year.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[samir.g]

27. We are way past that point with most of these rubes

Ignorant and hateful

[TurnTNBlue]

29. Thank you!

To the three members who answered my question. I don't know how else to acknowledge all three in one message so I will do it here. I appreciate your help. Sorry to derail the thread. I'm sure I will learn how to better navigate threads in due time.

[Guyechka]

30. Sue for libel

Seriously, use Rump's weapon against him and sue every goddamned alt right media outlet that publishes B.S. stories. Inundate them with lawsuits. Unlike Rump, I'm willing to bet they don't have hundreds of lawyers on retainer. Can you imagine what the grey matter challenged would do if their favorite media outlet had to retract every story, had to tell the truth?

[dhill926]

34. The key phrase

Is "willfully ignorant." I don't think they're stupid necessarily, but, willfully ignorant. Makes this whole thing a lot harder. Drives me fucking nuts.

[sarcasmo]

36. The left has to give up on the 62 million rubes and focus on the millions who didn't vote.

[libtodeath]

42. Yes,and cowering idiots clinging to their gunz and sky daddy for comfort

They have screwed us all with their 17th century ignorance.

[Willie Pep]

44. I agree that ignorance is a big factor in why we lose.

Ignorance is the best way to put it because I know people who are intelligent, educated and work professional jobs, but believe in many outlandish things. I have an uncle who is an engineer but is also a Sandy Hook truther and believes in all sorts of anti-Obama conspiracy theories. He listens to nothing but Michael Savage and other right-wing radio hosts. I have other relatives and friends who consume nothing but right-wing media.

I fear that the Internet is making this phenomenon worse as now you can easily retreat to your right-wing bubble and never leave. At least with traditional print media you might be forced to see columnists with views different from your own. Liberals can be guilty of living in a bubble too but conservatives really take it to the max. You can see this in the way that Republicans are more tribal while Democrats seem more prone to disagreement.

[gulliver]

48. The world needs to be safe for the too damned ignorant.

There's no educational solution to it. We'd better find a way where we can all be "ignorant" and still be safe and happy. We're all ignorant and always have been. We need to find ways that we dummies can get along.

[milestogo]

49. Yet there has never been more information available for those who want it.

People are so tuned into the mass media that they can't think for themselves. We're all supposed to hear the same news, think the same thoughts, and have the same conversations that the man behind the curtain wants us to. Try sharing facts with a low information voter and you will get that glazed over look and hear a piece of propaganda.

[loyalsister]

50. Have we arrived at a point where we are exactly as elitist as they say we are?

The left and right are both vulnerable to fake news and there are plenty of outlets to spread it on both sides.
A lot of people on the left have been convinced that vaccines are poison and all doctors are in cahoots with big pharma, which controls the FDA. There are plenty of problems with those industries without selling conspiracy theories.

RWers were subjected to fake conspiracies involving the Clintons as if it were water drip drip dripping onto their foreheads. Unfortunately, there was also a great deal of valid criticism in that direction enabling the stories to take root. Many who started out with a weak bias became full on haters as they digested more fake news.

People are especially vulnerable to it if it confirms their existing biases. It is not about stupidity. Much of it is about supporting the party they would have supported anyway. It is also about angry unheard people falling for propaganda, which has been proven to be effective in manipulating people of all levels of intelligence. Otherwise advertising would have died out long ago.

It doesn't help to classify all people we disagree with politically as stupid. In fact it is condescending and supports the "liberal elite" narrative.

[WillowTree]

52. Apparently.

[Atticus]

58. Until you can show me where my OP termed anyone "stupid", would you please can the "elitist" and

condescending BS?

Your conflation of RW acceptance of every drop of venom that spews from the likes of Alex Jones and Savage with a FEW liberals buying into the anti-vax nonsense is transparently bogus.

[Emilybemily]

53. Yes

[erpowers]

56. Voter Suppression

I realize I keep pounding the voter suppression drum, but I think the real problem is voter suppression. It is likely that if every vote had been counted and millions of Democratic voters had not been thrown from the voter rolls, Hillary Clinton would have won the electoral college vote. If all the voting machines had been working in Detroit, Michigan Hillary Clinton might have won the electoral college vote.

[lefthandedskyhook]

59. This is nothing new

The first time I heard Rush Limbaugh I thought to myself: "Americans are far too smart to fall for this crap". Wow was I wrong. This began to break down the idealism of youth. Documentation of this realization of willful ignorance in the general population dates back to ancient Greece. In the US constitution electors were set up as a bulwark against this reality. Unfortunately we have lost this protection and it never really worked as intended. Direct democracy still has the same inherent danger perceived by the original post in this thread. The solution? Churchill said it best:

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all those others that have been tried” – Winston Churchill.

At least the cycles of public opinion have proven out time again and again. They will do so again. The biggest danger is to the many bulwarks against human nature built into our constitution. These have been methodically eroded over time.

[treestar]

60. Hillary did win the popular vote

I don't think we have to lose faith. The deplorables are conveniently located in certain states. The Orange one's "victory" is a complete miracle from his side. Seeing it from his side, all the right people happened to be in the right states and it happened for every swing state (this is why we think it was rigged if we think that). They must have been truly amazed on Election Night. It was like winning the lottery. Just damn good luck. I think the result untypical and unlikely to happen again.

[ileus]

61. This is where a living wage would win us votes.

If they wouldn't start voting for us when they realize we're the ones looking out for their welfare, at least it may keep them from going out and voting.

We don't educate them we take care of them.