Is Christmas fake news?

[Douglas Kawasaki]

There has been a lot of talk lately about fake news, which partly helped Donald Trump get elected.
Then I read this article in 2014 from the Washington Post, explaining how there is no evidence that Jesus was born at all.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/18/did-historical-jesus-exist-the-traditional-evidence-doesnt-hold-up/?utm_term=.8ebb1b446152

Is fake news so powerful that today many of us take this one piece of fake news as reality?
Please discuss.

[Trust Buster]

1. Really ? You feel compelled to go down this road on Christmas Day ? Chill.

[stopbush]

3. Actually, it's an excellent time to go down this road.

People are paying attention.

[Bucky]

31. Congratulations.... Now you're down.

for the record, I'm not.

Merry Christmas anyway, Ebenezer

[stopbush]

34. Speaking of Ebenezer, his use of the word "humbug" is misunderstood.

The definition of humbug is deceptive or false behavior. Ebenezer's use of the word is an indictment of those who in his mind only pretend to charity during the holidays. In his mind, they're liars and cheats, and by extension, the Xmas season is little more than a yearly enabler of bad behavior.

Of course, Scrooge is most concerned about how it effects him. Ergo his assertion that Cratchit is picking his pocket by taking off Xmas Day with pay.

[Douglas Kawasaki]

4. Um, yeah?

Yes. Why would I bring this up on April 3rd or another non-Christmas related day? Because you disagree with the Washington Post?

[stopbush]

2. It's true. Jesus didn't exist. There are millions of people

in this country who base their lives on a lie. Worse, they interpret the lie to suit their purposes and then seek to impose their interpretation of the lie on the rest of us.

Really stupid and destructive, when you think about it.

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. Don't let it bother you.

Find something else to fret about.

[edhopper]

9. And all the laws they are going to pass

based on their Christian faith.
We shouldn't fret about those either?

Why should banning abortion and taking Gay Rights away bother me? Huh?

[Grey Lemercier]

16. this!!!!

[we can do it]

18. Hateful things done in the name of religion are still hateful.

[old guy]

27. This is the problem.

People can believe what they choose, but don't impose those beliefs on others through legislation. I will leave them alone, but I expect the same from them even knowing they will not.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

37. Right on!

[stopbush]

14. Er, it should bother everyone when make believe is used as a basis

to pass laws that effect the real world.

[Drahthaardogs]

15. Second time I had to post this today

The man Jesus almost certainly existed, preached around the Sea of Galilee, and was crucified by Pilate.

GA Wells, the father of Jesus Mythology has even changed his opinion on this.

Pilates inscription was found. Caiphus ossuaury was discovered.

[stopbush]

28. Your sources?

I'll wait. The argument from authority cuts no slack.

[Drahthaardogs]

45. Well,

You can spend months researching this (I have), so you can find your own bibliography of sources, of which there are many. However, the points I made 1) Pilates existence is now documented 2) Ciaphas's ossuary (which incidentally contained crucifixion nails) has been found and authenticated and 3) the world's most renowned Jesus Mythologist now believes in a Q document from which the Gospel's were derived and at least some sort of historical Jesus are well documented. A few links below:

Mr. Well's opinions have changed and he is no longer a Jesus mythologist. He now believes in the Q document at a historical Jesus who may have been a combination of several preachers running around the Sea of Galilee at that time in history. A brief synopsis of one of his lectures is noted here.

http://www.bede.org.uk/gawells.htm

Pilate Stone is well documented. Remember that for years, it was noted that Pilate must be a myth because no record existed for him. Then they found this...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/historical-notes-pontius-pilate-a-name-set-in-stone-1084786.html

Caiaphas, the leader of the Sanhedrin purported to have orchestrated the crucifixion of Jesus was also credited as a "myth", then they found these and they were authenticated. Well, at least the ossuary of Caiaphas and Miriam, the nails obviously cannot be verified.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145297


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caiaphas_ossuary

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/archaeologist-thinks-he-might-have-found-nails-from-jesuss-cross/2011/04/12/AFKrMDlD_story.html?utm_term=.f3a70050c9df

[stopbush]

46. What does believing a Q document existed have to do with

whether one believes Jesus existed?

You realize that some scholars believe the Q is none other than Mark, do you not?

As far as Pilate existing, what does that prove? That he had Jesus executed? It proves nothing, anymore than claiming Jesus was born during the reign of Herod (as claimed in one gospel) or that he was born a decade later under the reign of Quirinnias (when Herod was dead) as claimed in another gospel proves nothing. All it proves is that gospel writers looking to add a sense of verisimilitude to their writings sprinkled their writings with historic snippets to make the story seem plausible. The same technique works in Gone With The Wind - the fact that the Civil War happened doesn't mean Scarlett O'Hara was a real person.

No, you're not presenting evidence at all. Tossing words like "well documented" and "Authenticated" sound impressive, until one realizes that the Shroud of Turin has been authenticated as being the burial shroud of Jesus, a myth the Catholic church has been well documenting for centuries.

BTW - I've done a fair amount of research on this over the course of 40 years, and I've yet to see any objective proof for the existence of Jesus.

[Drahthaardogs]

47. Okay, I guess you know more than Wells

you are bigly informed....

[stopbush]

48. Ad hominum attack.

Different scholars believe different things. I guess Wells knows better than anyone holding a different view. Is that what you're saying? That there is a final arbitrer when it comes to the subject, and Wells is that person?

BTW - proposing that the Q was something devised by multiple savior figures running around the area is pure speculation. You realize the Q dicument is a non-existent, hypothetical document that has been proposed to fill in the blanks in scriptire origin discussions, do you not?

Q=the German word "quelle," which means an origin, like in a spring, ie: the source.

[Drahthaardogs]

50. I saying he knows more than YOU

because he spent the last fifty years of his life researching this. I am also saying I knew the minute the smug "waiting" remark came out, any source would be attacked as inconsequential by you, and not "good enough". I know the type.

So, hate to pop your bubble but most of the respected scholars now believe the preponderance of evidence points to a historical Jesus. If you don't like it, no need to berate me, go ahead and send Mr. Wells a letter.

[stopbush]

51. I won't bother listing the Biblical scholars who know as much as Wells

and disagree with him - because you can't be bothered.

No prob. Religion is a fantasy. Making it more of a fantasy by imagining there's proof for its claims is just adding chapters to the existing fiction.

[Drahthaardogs]

52. Oh, sources are required for my argument but not for yours?

Hmmmmm........

[stopbush]

54. Wells from Wiki:

In his early work,[196] including Did Jesus Exist? (1975), Wells argued that the Gospels were written decades after Jesus's death by Christians who were theologically motivated, but had no personal knowledge of him. Therefore, he concluded that a rational person should believe the gospels only if they are independently confirmed.[197]

Later, Wells admitted that a historical Jesus figure did exist. His Jesus was a Galilean preacher, whose teachings were preserved in the Q document, a hypothetical common source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke.[198] However, he continued to insist that Biblical Jesus did not exist. He argued that stories such as the virgin birth, the crucifixion around A.D. 30 under Pilate, and the resurrection, should be regarded as legendary.[199][200][201]

Biblical scholar Robert Van Voorst said that with this argument Wells had performed an about-face.[202] However, scholars such as Earl Doherty,[203] Richard Carrier,[204] Paul Eddy, and Gregory Boyd[205] continue to regard Wells as a Christ myth theorist.

In his 2013 book Cutting Jesus Down to Size, Wells clarified that he believes the Gospels represent the fusion of two originally independent streams: a Galilean preaching tradition, and the supernatural personage of Paul's early epistles. However, he says that both figures owe much of their substance to ideas from the Jewish wisdom literature.[206]

[Drahthaardogs]

55. Wiki... and you balked at my sources?

[stopbush]

57. Shorthand is all.

If you want a hard source, explore the writings of Richard Carrier.

[stopbush]

56. If your argument is for the existence of Jesus, then, yes, the evidence

is all on your side as you are tasked with proving something to be factual.

It is impossible to prove a negative. What evidence would you have me present? The best I can do is to expose falsehoods that have been presented as evidence, inconsistencies that call into question that which is considered to be evidence and similarities among the various Mediterranean myths that show a more-than-casual or -accidental link between the Jesus myth and various other god stories.

Wells and others in fact put tremendous pressure on three sources to bolster their claims of a corporeal Jesus. Two of those sources are from Josephus, and the most-extensive reference he makes to Jesus is most definitely a forgery that was inserted in his work by Xian scribes in the 4th century(ie: the Testimonium Flavianum). We know it to be a forgery as no religious writer familiar with the works of Josephus bothers to mention the TF until the 4th century. The other Josephus reference to Jesus is merely in passing and may well refer to some other Jesus.

The other source is the mention of "Christus" in the writings of Tacitus. But Christus is a title, not a name, and in any case, Tacitus only uses the word when citing Xians who claim that Jesus was the Messiah. That's akin to mentioning that your kids believe Santa Claus is real - you're just reporting what they believe. You're not saying that you believe Santa exists or that your kids' belief in his existence means he does exist.

Unfortunately, Wells has gone the way of many other apologists, electing to believe that Jesus really existed based on forgeries and non-evidence.

[Drahthaardogs]

58. The evidence strongly supports a historical Jesus

In fact, it makes a lot of sense. There were probably more than one man running around preaching claiming to be the Messiah as prophecized by Isiah and others. Whether they were or were not, is a matter of faith.

The whole "Jesus was a myth" scenario is pretty stupid and really makes no practical sense. The Horus story is horseshit too. It was a weak parallel at best and only got popularized because Maher included it in his documentary.

There is far more evidence to support a historical Jesus than not. That is the truth and those are the facts. He or multiple men most likely existed.

[stopbush]

61. Oh dear. You really need to be educated.

Citing Isaiah as prophesizing the birth of Christ is an incredible faux pas in Biblical scholarship.

Isaiah 7:14 does NOT prophesy a virgin birth. The word used in the Old testament is "almah," which is the Hebrew word for a young girl, not a virgin. The mistaken change of "almah" to mean virgin came when the OT was translated into the Greek of the Septuagint. That mistake was picked up by the Gospel writers, who then retro-fitted the mistranslation to propose Jesus being born of a virgin, a quality that -dare I say it - he would have then have had in common with other gods of the time, including Julius Caesar, who was awarded with a virgin birth story of his own once he was declared a god.

From that one instance alone, we can assume that the gospel writers were educated men who were able to read Greek and who were getting their OT scripture in Greek, not in the original Hebrew or Aramaic. Unfortunately, they bought the mistakes in the Septuagint hook, line and sinker, and then went on to assert that the events portrayed in these mistakes - like the virgin birth - were historical events. The fact that Jews translated the OT into the Greek of the Septuagint and that it was they who elected to use the Greek word "parthenos" - which defintely means a virgin - as their translation for almah in Isaiah doesn't really help the case, as of the six other times the word almah is used in the OT, none of those uses is to denote a virgin.

There's no precedent for the word almah being translated as virgin, so why do it in that one instance? It's more likely the translators just made a bad choice of Greek words when they did their translation. These were men, after all, and men make mistakes.

BTW - Isaiah also says that this child will be called "Immanuel," yet nowhere in the NT is Jesus called Immanuel. Isaiah was making his prophecy to King Ahaz, and it was in relationship to whether that king would be victorious in an uncoming battle. The only way to get to the idea that Isaiah was prophecying a virgin birth is to imagine that it is some kind of double prophecy that needed to wait for the writer of Matthew to show up to connect the supposed birth of Jesus with the story of King Azah.

Go figure.

[Drahthaardogs]

62. The Vatican is full of people who would not agree

With your translation. So unless you have a PhD in Greek, ancient Hebrew, or Aramaic please shut up

[stopbush]

64. When the Revised Standard Version of the Bible was released in 1952,

the word "almah" was changed back to mean "young woman" in Isaiah 7:14. This caused an outrage among many sects. That translation was maintained in the New Revised Standard Version as well.

The RSV translation team was headed by a Jewish scholar. No doubt some of the outrage stemmed from a Jew "messing with the Xian Bible." Get rid of the virgin birth and a whole lot of dogma evaporates.

Your suggestion that the translation of the word as "young woman" is not linguistically sound is not a well informed opinion. The RSV is a long-accepted, legitimate translation of the Bible, and there are many other translations of the Bible that do not translate the word almah to mean virgin, including the CEB and the CJB.

BTW - as far as what the RCC says or thinks, it was only a few years ago that they finally abandoned the "unofficial" dogma of "limbo." This after torturing parents for centuries with the idea that their dead, unbaptized children were stuck somewhere between heaven and hell.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo-idUSL2028721620070420

[pangaia]

35. Oh, but the eggnog is so good. !!

[FrodosNewPet]

39. Those stupid and destructive people gave me shelter when I was homeless

Why don't atheists open up more homeless shelters and soup kitchens and food pantries? They keep conceding that to churches.

Time for us non-believers to step up and show who the real moral superiors are. We need more secular social services NOW.

[yeoman6987]

5. I thought he existed but just exaggerated facts a bit

After all the gospels were written 300 years after the events. Heck I'd probably get some facts wrong discussing my life yesterday. Lol

[edhopper]

10. Actually

they were written from around 60-70 AD to around 100 AD.
Our oldest complete copies are from around 300, but there are fragments from earlier.

Still none were written by anyone who witnessed anything.

[yeoman6987]

11. Thanks!

[edhopper]

12. Wikipedia has a pretty good

summary of the Gospel dates.

[yeoman6987]

13. Thank you.

Today is a great day to research. I appreciate it. I find it concerning they were written so long after events.

[former9thward]

63. Why?

We tend to think of ancient history with our own values and technology. Most people were illiterate. There were no newspapers. Manuscripts were reserved for the kings and their circles. Jesus was not a major figure in 30 A.D. Most Roman authorities would have had no knowledge of him. Jesus was a leader of a small rebellion against the Jewish allies of Rome. Why would anyone write about him? Writers served the Roman Empire and it is a wonder there was anything at all written about Jesus or the movement he led.

[left-of-center2012]

6. Seriously?

A 'hit piece' on Jesus on Christmas morning?

And the author of the linked article apparently is an atheist, having authored the book
"There Was No Jesus, There Is No God".

Next someone will claim there is no Santa Claus.

Oh well.

[Trust Buster]

8. Pretty sad, isn't it ? Merry Christmas to you my friend.

[B2G]

17. I anxiously await your hit piece on Muhammad. nt

[treestar]

20. Muhammad probably has better evidence of existing

I suspect one reason Islam spread so well is that is doesn't require you to believe in more than just God (no coming back from the dead after 3 days, turning water into wine).

[treestar]

19. it is not based on his existence but belief in his existence

and god-ness.

There was a Christmas in the middle ages, and earlier times when people could not be blamed for believing. They had almost no science compared to what we have today. It has become a firm custom. I am sure too many people are celebrating it when they don't believe in God anymore or are agnostic about it. It's a family holiday too.

It's winter solstice when people celebrate anyway - the pagans already were, the Christians who came are said to have taken over those already existing holidays.

[ismnotwasm]

21. Jesus almost certainly existed

He was one of many wondering Rabbis at the time the difference being he was caught up in, or became symbolic of certain political struggles. His teachings, some of which were most certainly a kind of folk wisdom and not original, apparently weren't written down until around at least a century after his death. Not to mention what was left in and what was left out of scripture.

I think it's fine to argue what Jesus was--Personally, I'm more inclined to leave the faithful alone, and fairly ridiculous to argue that Jesus never existed---most scholars disagree, and I didn't think anyone still believed this.

Faith is a funny thing, it's can be of the most beautiful or one of the most appalling things about being human. We all share a touch of it--not necessarily in deities of course.

[mcar]

30. Well said!

[rug]

22. Actually, the article itself is an example of fake news.

Written by a lecturer and author of a book called "There Was No Jesus, There Is No God".

The academic consensus, by scholars without an ax to grind, is, and has been, that the person existed.

[ismnotwasm]

24. Yup

The whole "there was no actual Jesus" thing is a bit odd, given the intense academic study of the topic.

On a side note, this OP lead me to start re-reading Carl Jung's "The Answer to Job" as a Christmas gift for my brain.

[rug]

25. It's right up there with the Horus/Jesus meme which is consistently debunked.

Happy reading!

[ismnotwasm]

26. Heh!

Thank you

Merry Christmas!

[stopbush]

33. Exactly right. The whole "Jesus is a cookie cutter example of an old god" argument

is lazy and a waste of time.

It's more fundamental - and interesting - than that.

See here: http://pocm.info

[rug]

40. Ah, someone who's bookmarked the Horus/Jesus chart.

It's more fake - and misleading - than that.

See here: http://www.tektoonics.com/test/parody/pocemon/pikachumyth.htm

[stopbush]

43. Yeah, if you would bother to explore my link

they debunk the whole Horus/Jesus chart as being amusing.

[stopbush]

32. Intense study? On the contrary, most historians go along to get along

on the Jesus question as it has nothing to do with their personal field of interest. The only historians doing intense study of Jesus are the ones with an agenda to show how the gospel story is true, not whether it is true.

The facts remain that the only source we have for the existence of a corporeal Jesus are the tales told in the gospels, none of which are contemporaneous to Jesus supposed life. Matthew and Luke are based on Mark, which is not a history but a religious allegory. Luke states at the beginning of his gospel that his is not an eyewitness account.

Paul's epistles were written before the gospels and make no reference to any of Jesus' life events. In fact, Paul's Jesus is an entirely spiritual being who never was corporeal.

Those who claim Jesus existed and who seek to place him among other historical figures actually do a disservice to religious belief in general by removing him from the continuum of myth - which man has long availed himself to explain that which at the time was inexplicable - and fixing him in a time and place. All that does is diminish any impact the Jesus myth might have outside of the narrow confines of a person-based cult.

[ismnotwasm]

36. My understanding is that he existed

As a person. Why would scholars 'go along to get along?" They never have before-- academia is a mare's nest of intrigue and competition. I don't have time for an argument today, but my favorite theologian is Elaine Pagals and I see everything, everything, through a feminist lens--I have found no compelling argument for the non-existence of Jesus--despite looking for it---and a near complete consensus from scholars that he did.

WHAT he existed as is a far more interesting question to me.

[tenorly]

23. Of course it is - it's a Pagan Saturnalia. But Merry Christmas just the same.

[TheCowsCameHome]

29. Well then, Merry (fake) Christmas to everyone on DU.

Whatever floats your ark.

[tenderfoot]

38. A Trolly Jolly Christmas to you too.

eom

[pintobean]

44. +1

Merry Christmas, tenderfoot.

[tenderfoot]

49. Merry Christmas to you pintobean.

[malchickiwick]

41. Read, study, & decide for yourself based on ACTUAL historical research. And have a Happy Yule!!

a few places to begin:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Historical_Figure_of_Jesus.html?id=lkbTL36ZgPIC&hl=en

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Historical_Jesus.html?id=MIglAQAAIAAJ

And even fiction can be helpful, as in these from my favorite author:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9ewjAAAAMAAJ

https://books.google.com/books?id=2yWKAgAAQBAJ

[radical noodle]

42. No. Christmas is not fake news

Faith/Religion is in a different category. Throughout the ages, there have been beliefs built that seemed necessary for the times. There are religions all over the world that celebrate special times that might or might not be true.

Christmas is what each person wants it to be. It can be religious or not. Even if there was a Jesus, he was most certainly not born on December 25th. Do you tell Jews that Passover is fake news? I doubt it.

Christianity gets a bum rap from Democrats because so many so-called Christians aren't really Christian. The meaning of Christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, not to be judgmental and mean spirited. Whether he lived or not is a moot point to many of those who would follow his good example of loving kindness.

The real news is the bad and good in our world and there always will be. Some will find a path to good through religion and some will find only hatred toward those who do not believe as they do. I prefer to be on the path to good, whether through religion or not.

I was raised in a family where Christianity was a belief and a way of life. My parents and grandmother not only talked the talk, they walked the walk. I would be a disappointment to them in a way because I do not have their faith or belief in God, but I still have that set of moral values they taught me through religion. My husband and I always do good things for others during this time, especially for those who least expect it. I feel sure that those people would never deny there is a Christmas spirit in some that is not fake.

A very happy Christmas to you, whether as a religious holiday or a secular one. May you have peace and joy in the coming year.

[0rganism]

53. Christmas is not fake news. the NORAD Santa tracker is fake news.

Christmas is, at minimum, a culturally significant holiday celebrated by hundreds of millions of people worldwide. it is newsworthy.

however, there's a lot of extra bullshit tied to it that, in a responsible society, would lead adults to find the fake "coverage" unforgivable.

[HassleCat]

59. We can accept that he existed.

A cult pretty much needs a cult figure. It would be very difficult to start a cult based on a purely imaginary person.

[McCamy Taylor]

60. Christmas is an important Japanese gift giving holiday.

What are you? Red? Why do you want free market capitalism to fail?

Do I really need to insert the sarcasm emogie? Probably or someone who is humor-challenged will alert. Here it is:



Happy F-ing Holidays my droogies!