"The place where I come from is a small town..."

[Different Drummer]

[LWolf]

1. Bigotry at its best. nt

[unblock]

2. heard another song recently that made me think of toxic trump:

not sure it works perfectly, maybe better if one day we find he's actually capable of remorse.


https://play.google.com/music/preview/T62ezsex75vndgp4snthlf55rwy?lyrics=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics


I started a joke which started the whole world crying
But I didn't see that the joke was on me oh no
I started to cry which started the whole world laughing
Oh If I'd only seen that the joke was on me


I looked at the skies running my hands over my eyes
And I fell out of bed hurting my head from things that I said
'Till I finally died which started the whole world living
Oh if I'd only seen that the joke was on me


I looked at the skies running my hands over my eyes
And I fell out of bed hurting my head from things that I said
'Till I finally died which started the whole world living
Oh if I'd only seen that the joke was on me
Oh no that the joke was on me

[Squinch]

3. "The jaded underworld was riding high."

[Binkie The Clown]

4. Yes, ridiculing the people we should be trying to understand ...

is going to work just fine to win them over.

[LaydeeBug]

6. They don't want to be understood. they want to be TOLD.

They don't want to be educated. They want to be SCHOOLED.

I wish it were different, but it's not.

[Binkie The Clown]

8. Keep tallying up the ways in which "they" are inferior to "us"

and you will win their hearts and minds for sure.

Part of the problem with today's Democratic party is they truly believe they know what's best for the peons, even if the peons are too ignorant to understand that.

You will not find that approach anywhere in the table of contents for How to Win Friends and Influence People.

[LaydeeBug]

9. They aren't *inferior8, they are just *different* and they don't want logic and reason

Part of the problem is that our side thinks we can reason with people who want to be told.

And this writhing has been on the wall for DECADES now, so this ain't new at all.

"Just say, "ditto" Don't think about it. You don't have to think about it. Be a ditto head".

They. don't. want. reason. And you are wildly mischaracterizing me if you thought I was saying they are inferior, or that SCHOOLING them as opposed to EDUCATING them is tallying up the ways. It is *different*.

These guys *like* to fight. Even when they lose and are word shamed. I wish it were different, but it's not.

[Grey Lemercier]

20. if they do not want, or refuse to use, logic or reason, they ARE, a priori, inferior

I fail to see how anyone could argue that, if you accept that premiss.

[Binkie The Clown]

23. Such clearly inferior people belong in concentrtation camps, right?

Where do you draw the line on this project of marginalizing and dehumanizing half the population of the country? Would we be better off without them? If so, isn't it our duty to get rid of them? Wouldn't that be the final solution to the whole "redneck" problem?



As for me, I'll stay off that slippery slope, thank you just the same.

[Grey Lemercier]

24. no, they need to be (the ones who actually wilfully refuse to accept logic and reason) politically

neutered once and for all. It is nowhere near half the country, btw.

[Squinch]

28. Gracious. You certainly did a leap there didn't you? Others are talking about

the Trump voter's illogic and idiocy, which is self-evident, and here you are talking about corralling and killing them.

It's quite ridiculous of you to think that acknowledgment of a truth is a slippery slope leading to murder.

WE won't be the ones killing them, silly! The ones they voted for will be the ones killing them! We tried to stop it, and they slapped our hands away.

[hatrack]

39. I met a traveler from an antique land, who said, two vast and trunkless legs of straw . . . .

Stand on the Internet. Near them on the strand,
Half sunk, a rotting straw bale lies, chopped down,
And stinking kelp, and beer cans full of sand
And rhetoric so tragically misread
Show that the author didn't know a thing,
The keys that clattered and the brain so dead:
And on the OP line these words appear:
"My name is Trolololo, Snark of Kings:
Look on my works, DUers, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that flatulent post, pointless and bare
A hundred-plus responses stretch far away.

[LanternWaste]

57. Is a racist a priori inferior as well? Or no?

Is a racist a priori inferior as well? Or no?

Not so much a premise, as a mere inference, by the way, as only you placed the judgement values into observation.

[Grey Lemercier]

58. A racist is an inferior human. Yes.

[madinmaryland]

14. How in the hell do you get through to these people? I see

lots of posts here about how we need to get through to them, but no actual solutions. Short of another Great Depression and the second coming of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, I don't know how that will happen.

[TXCritter]

19. LISTEN to them

LISTEN then walk away. Let it roll around in your head for awhile. Give it time and you will find new arguments, new questions to get them to question themselves. Forget the old rhetoric, it's dead. We must come up with new elements of the conversation.

[Grey Lemercier]

21. there's no way to walk back someone whose entire set of arguments are based off wilful

ignorance, lies, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, all undergirded with fundie xianism. Their entire world view is so skewed from ours that it is literally like dealing with another species at key intersectionalities.

[TXCritter]

22. Then kill them

If they are so irredeemable they must not be allowed to reproduce. They must be killed. They are a disease that can only be stopped by extermination.

Or maybe, just maybe they are human beings.

And as human beings the lies, racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia are driven by human insecurities and human pain. And maybe, just maybe you can help them see that and see that the source of their pain is not what they think it is.


Pick one but don't wallow in some sense of powerlessness to fix the situation. If we're *so* smart, if we're the party of intellect then surely we can figure out some ways to change hearts.

[Grey Lemercier]

25. No, they need to be politically neutered, and their way of thinking so ridiculed and made so

repugnant that they never again gain traction.

[Amishman]

70. Ridicule doesn't work well

You'll only be reinforcing the stereotype they have of the 'arrogant know-it-all liberal'

It is better to ask questions and lead them to finding the truth themselves. Yes, not as satisfying as snark and zingers, but it works much better.

[dumbcat]

27. Historically, that is the most common solution

throughout the world.

[Squinch]

62. Even as just a sophomoric argument this is a sick thing to say. You are the

one who brought it there, not anyone else. Your brain brought this to that sick place.

And you go ahead and beat your head against the "help them see" wall. Personally I'll be giving them all a wide berth (see how that has nothing to do with harming them in any way? Can't help but wonder what it is in YOUR mind that jumps to the idea of killing them) and going after the voters who stayed home.

[TXCritter]

71. In other words you'll be doing nothing.

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.
--Ghandi

Or, at least, you'll be doing nothing effective.

[Squinch]

72. If you need to project about doing nothing, have at it. I don't have time for such crap any more.

Feel free to make a constructive contribution to one of my efforts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028413859

[Amishman]

69. You clearly haven't listened to the actual people themselves

Don't listen to that barking idiot Limbaugh and other conservative media morons and think they represent the masses who voted against Hillary.

Sit back and really listen to a rural conservative and you will hear a lot of complaints about taxes, the EPA, gun restrictions, jobs, roads, schools, fuel prices, banks, and corruption. You might hear a little hate speech here and there but it will be mostly from the poorest, stupidest, and oldest people. Those who failed at life and need to blame someone other than themselves.

There is common ground to find in the list I gave, if we are willing to pivot a little to reach it.

How do I know this? I grew up in a small town in the middle of nowhere, moved to DC for a while, and now live in a different slice of nowhere. These rural conservative voters are my neighbors and (in some cases) my in-laws.

[Squinch]

29. Oh, bullshit. Here's the answer: walk away from the sexist, bigoted Trump voter and let them

stew in their own self-destruction. They will NEVER hear us.

Move on to the next door neighbor who is someone who stayed home because they bought the crap being peddled about Hillary, but they didn't have the inherent bigotry and sexism to vote for Trump. Invite that person for coffee.

[OnionPatch]

55. Yes!

We just need to re-connect with Obama voters who didn't show up or voted third party. We'd probably even pick up a few of the reluctant Trump voters along the way. No one is saying we have to cozy up to racists.

[LonePirate]

31. Listen to them? What if what they say they want is impossible?

The way I see it, the people who voted Red this time fall into these groups:
-- Forces of Evil (the bigots and anarchists)
-- Evangelicals (although their anti-choice motivations are steeped in sexism and racism)
-- The Greedy Elite (people who want massive tax cuts despite having no need for them)
-- Loyalists (vote Red no matter what or why)
-- The Uninformed (lack info or access to info to make informed choices)
-- Those Seeking Hope (the so-called economic anxiety voters)

There is absolutely no way we will ever reach anyone in the first four groups and we should not even try.

The fifth group is either too lazy/uninterested to be informed and/or they are bombarded with so much disinformation, they relent. We could listen to these people but it will not be easy to win them over without a lot of work. Still, we should try.

The last group are the people we're supposed to listen to but they want the impossible. They want all of the old factory, coal mine and blue collar jobs to return that will never, ever come back. Our candidate offered them a viable solution but they opted for the unobtainable fantasy instead. We listened, responded and were rejected. Do we need to listen to them more and then sell them lies like Team Red did? Or should we wait for them to realize they have been conned and then offer our solutions again? We cannot provide what they want so if you have an alternative, please provide it.

[TXCritter]

32. Then help them understand WHY it is impossible and help them see new solutions

We're supposed to be the smart party, right? The party of intellect and ideas? If we're so smart why can't we learn to be teachers?

[LonePirate]

33. Clinton tried to explain her solutions and why their solution was impossible but the message was ...

muddled and ignored in favor of the shiny fantasy. Now we're stuck with waiting until they realize their fantasy is not going to come true so we can reiterate realistic solutions to them.

[TXCritter]

54. Talking to crowds is different than talking to individuals

We are a crowd. As a crowd we can talk to the othe crowd and create one-on-one conversations. That's what we need to do.

[LanternWaste]

59. Refusing to learn is wholly different than refusing to teach.

Refusing to learn is wholly different than refusing to teach. You appear to miss that most obvious and relevant distinction.

If a person throws a ball to someone standing nearby, refusal to catch is not the responsibility of the pitcher. If that second person has petulantly refused to catch it time after time, never showing interest or investment, it then becomes rather stupid to keep throwing him the ball.

[OrwellwasRight]

40. Historically, most popular movements of revolt began w/disdain, belittling, refusal to communicate.

Not.


They began with talking and educating. But no one will listen once you have labeled them an idiot racist bigot misogynist. So keep up the insults. They will certainly grow our voters!

[LonePirate]

44. You actually think we can win over bigots by talking to them?

If so, you can speak to them because I will not waste my time.

I identified who needed to go after and the bigots were not included.

[OrwellwasRight]

46. Not all who voted for Trump are bigots.

Many voted for Obama twice. Some were even people of color. We have to get over the name calling and try communicating. Calling names is a terrible first step. No one will listen after that.And the approach of "they're not worth talking to" is not an approach of a party trying to send the message that we all matter.

[LonePirate]

47. You failed to read my post. I clearly distinguished the bigots from those we needed to go after.

[OrwellwasRight]

48. No, I read it.

You pretended to take your last two groups seriously, but started with mockery ("Listen to them?&quot and ended with mockery, explaining why the last two groups aren't worth talking to. So no, you really did not distinguish. You concluded that none are worth your time. Good luck growing the Party with that disdainful, non-educational, non-communicative attitude.

Do you think that the progressives and reformers of the past took the approach of growing their movements by mocking the very people they claimed to want to help? Only speaking to those who already think like you do isn't a winning strategy.

What about the 1/3 of American who didn't vote?

[LonePirate]

49. Your interpretation of my post is wrong.

I explicitly stated we should go after the low information voters regardless of the work involved. I also implied waiting out the anxiety voters as they will need someone with solutions once their fantasy bubble bursts about the jobs coming back. Sometimes you simply have to watch someone fail while pursuing their dreams so you can pick them up afterwards. You can call it mockery. I call it simple honesty.

I made no mention of the people who did not vote because my post was about those who voted Republican.

[OrwellwasRight]

50. It may not be what you meant, but it is what you said

The fifth group is either too lazy/uninterested to be informed and/or they are bombarded with so much disinformation, they relent.

You words don't show respect for these people. You call them "lazy/uninterested." That is no way to start a conversation among equals. You say "we should try," later in your post, but your words have already communicated disrespect with judgmental labeling. So that's not much of a conversation.

The last group are the people we're supposed to listen to but they want the impossible. They want all of the old factory, coal mine and blue collar jobs to return that will never, ever come back . . . Do we need to listen to them more and then sell them lies like Team Red did?

Again, the words you choose do not demonstrate respect for these people. You write them off by saying "They want the impossible." When did you ever hear any of them say they want back the same factories of the 1970s? What they want is a fair chance to be in the middle class by getting a family-wage job. Those chances do not exist because of policy choices that can be changed. There is no reason that working in an Amazon warehouse has to be a shitty, poorly-paid, dangerously hot job, but it is because our laws allow Amazon to pretend these people are not Amazon employees. What these people want are decent work, but your choice words writes them off as fantasists who live in the past so that you can dismiss their legitimate political concerns.

Again I will say this is no way to start a broad based movement. And no, you did not mention those who did not vote, perhaps because mentioning them might force you to admit that we Democrats should talk to someone besides only those who voted for HRC. Talking to non-voters would mean having to open up and ask them why they don't vote. But perhaps that was not your point. Perhaps you only wanted to pontificate about the uselessness of trying to communicate with anyone who already has not reached the DU conclusion. Well, DU tried to get HRC elected with DU alone. Perhaps we need to try something else.

[annabanana]

56. but bigotry was clearly not a deal breaker. . . n/t

[Squinch]

60. I think this is the fundamental disagreement here. In my mind, if bigotry and

sexism are not a deal breaker, that means the person is bigoted and sexist.

Somehow others think there are those who voted in a way that they knew without a doubt would make life miserable for people of color and women, and yet they insist that those people are not bigots and sexists.

I don't get it.

And I don't get how they think we would ever try to appeal to such people. We can, and must, do it without them.

[OrwellwasRight]

67. No question.

But again, I think this requires a thoughtful response. For some of us empathy is a fairly normal response. For others, they can have it, but it emerges slowly and only in response to the right stimuli. For some, we naturally interact with others who are quite different than we are, and we learn from that. Others live in insular communities and have little experience of the "other." Some can quite easily extrapolate information to the real world after reading, viewing, etc., so we don't have to see an incidence of police brutality or a person being denied a job opportunity on the basis of race to get that it is actually real. Others, it takes them a while to learn. So what are we doing about those who so easily write off bigotry as "no big deal"? Leaving them to their own devices doesn't help. And neither does insulting them.

Politics is about power. And for the less powerful to gain power requires work. Too many on the left don't want to work. We want to preach to the choir and call anyone who isn't in the choir a "white supremacist." That won't cut it. We need to teach people why it is in their interest not to elect a bigot. So far, I think we have not done that.

[dumbcat]

30. You are not going to get through to those people

You aren't going to "educate" them, "if they'd only listen." They don't believe you. They don't have the same values. They think you are stupid and have crazy ideas. We think that we are all "humans" and have the same basic ideas of right and wrong, of what is good and what is evil. We don't, period. Proven throughout human history.

There is only one way to "win" over people who are diametrically opposed to your ideas. Force. Up to and including elimination. We don't like to consider that. Hence, all these threads asking "how do we fix this?" Without thinking the unthinkable.

[madinmaryland]

34. I agree. There is no getting through to these people. It is going to take something

cataclysmic to happen, such as the Great Depression. Even the Great Bush Recession didn't change their attitudes.

[treestar]

52. Yes, people fail to realize

not everyone is like them.

[LaydeeBug]

53. These people appreciate gut level knee jerking.

No. It's not rational. But it's what resonates with them.

[eShirl]

11. I just like the song/video, always have.

[hamsterjill]

18. I understand them.

I came from "them". Grew up in a small town in South Texas. Population less than 1,500 and that was counting everyone in the surrounding farms and ranches.

We will never win them over. They are too indoctrinated. They do not think independently. They fear not "belonging" and thinking like the others. They fear anything that is different because it is an affirmation that their way is not the ONLY way. They fear change.

If we have to win these types over, we are faced with the impossible. We must simply out number them.

[OrwellwasRight]

41. So your solution is to procreate?

[hamsterjill]

51. Nope.

My solution is to go after the electoral college, and after the people who didn't bother to vote.

[OnionPatch]

63. Maybe all rural areas aren't the same.

I grew up in the rust belt in a rural area. It wasn't like you describe. Not everyone there was/is a bigoted, small-minded racist, although there were/are plenty of them. Obama won my home county. Trump won this time.

I just counted off my cousins who still live there. Just over half of them are strong Dems or lean that way. Their kids? Nearly all of them old enough to have political opinions are turning out to be quite liberal minded. I think we need these people if we're going to "outnumber them" as you suggest. Stereotyping them like this is only going to confirm conservative accusations that we're elitists and drive many of them away.

[hamsterjill]

64. Maybe they are not all the same. But the one I speak of IS, as are many.

You are a much more generous person than I am. Kudos to you.

But I, personally and honestly, don't give a rat's ass about conservative accusations. Republicans are always going to be making accusations against Democrats. If there is not truth for them to accuse - they will merely make something up. Those who choose to believe the accusations aren't going to bother with researching the truth. And it is those (i.e., the ones who don't bother to determine truth versus lie, fact versus fiction) that I was speaking of in my post. So I don't think we would be driving any of those voters away because they are already not going to consider a Democratic candidate anyway.

[OnionPatch]

65. Debunking their stereotypes isn't my first concern

My main concern is that we don't start ignoring places considered "rural" simply because Trump won there this time. Maybe we don't need Texas since we've been able to win without them in the past, but considering the nature of the Electoral College, we need those rust belt areas.

And I disagree that it doesn't matter what they say about us. They've been very successful pushing their lies and causing misconceptions about what we stand for. I believe they do affect many voters who are on the fence.

[hamsterjill]

66. Your disagreement is duly noted.

Thanks for the exchange. Happy New Year!

[OnionPatch]

68. Happy New Year to you, too.

[Cosmocat]

26. You think they want to "understand" you?

They hate you, they hate us.

Not garden variety hate, mind you.

These people think you, me and all liberals are solely responsible for every horrible thing they can think of. They view our very existence as the most serious threat to god, country and family.

There isn't jack we can do to "win" them over past dying.

[tenderfoot]

35. They don't want to be won over. They don't want to change.

BTW, I don't see you reaching out to them either.

[Binkie The Clown]

37. "I don't see you reaching out to them either." So you've been following me around?

Face it. You don't want to be won over to my point of view. You don't want to change.

[tenderfoot]

38. LOL!

[libtodeath]

61. Anyone stupid and hateful enough to have voted for cheato deserves ridcule and scorn.

[LaydeeBug]

5. "But not me. I'm smarter than that" nt

I can't believe someone didn't beat me to that punch.

[0rganism]

7. for those who don't already know...

The place where I come from
Is a small town
They think so small
They use small words
- But not me
I'm smarter than that
I worked it out
I've been stretching my mouth
To let those big words come right out

[eShirl]

10. "... and my Heaven will be a big Heaven, and I will walk through the front door."

[Maru Kitteh]

12. And my heaven will be a big hell. And i will walk through the front door

[Maru Kitteh]

13. You do realize the point of this song is to ridicule those who would look down on small towns

just because they are small, right?

It's a song about the arrogance of greedy, social-climbing wanna-be fat cats; people who shun their roots and step on their friends backs to pursue a McMansion and a corner office. It's about the superficial nature of their quest and the hell they create for themselves.

[yardwork]

15. Sounds like Trump to me.

[Maru Kitteh]

16. I agree it sounds like Trump. But the graphic seems to deride rural places

and the use of this particular song in that particular way is . . misguided, I think.

[yardwork]

17. I read the OP as a reference to Trump.

[BlueStater]

45. It also sounds like Trump voters.

They're under the delusion that this orange huckster can make their lives perfect. They want instant, unrealistic solutions to complex problems.

[eShirl]

36. absolutely

[sl8]

73. Thank you. n/t

[WinkyDink]

42. Now that is simply silly. "Stronger Together" isn't exactly sesquipedalian.

[BlueStater]

43. Except nothing the orange tumor has ever uttered has had any more substance than

"Make America Great Again". There's never been any specifics to a single goddamn thing he has ever said.

[WinkyDink]

74. Point taken! He's going to be President Twit!