hey Jill Stein how is that "Hillary is worse than trump" line going for you?

[still_one]

[democratisphere]

1. Jill screwed America and made her getaway with the loot.

Beware of false prophets that are only in it for the profit.

[dalton99a]

4. +1

[workinclasszero]

66. +1000

[we can do it]

94. X2

[CajunBlazer]

111. X1000

[BlueCaliDem]

2. Not only Jill Stein. She was just benefitted from American apathy toward politics.

Now we'll feel in our own lives the costs of attacking Democrats in critical elections. But will these people learn? Two years is a long, long time.

And the only reason why Republicans feel confident in passing disastrous bills and enacting those disastrous laws, is because they know they've gerrymandered districts and successfully abused the gutted VRA to stop people from voting while a person of color. They damn well know they've got job security.

American democracy has failed us.

[mopinko]

3. oh please.

maybe the rule of not refighting the primaries can be extended to not refighting the general.

who needs this shit?

[still_one]

7. It isn't refighting the primary or the election, but pointintng out a lying fraud

[bettyellen]

8. I'd love to see a resurgence of the Greens to take on the upcoming assault on the

The environment and our national parks. They have a huge opportunity to dump this idea of going for the WH every four years. Jill should spend that money raised fighting the good fight and maybe get some Greens elected to congress. The thing is we know they probably won't. They'll continue these games, and it costs us.

[Blue_true]

11. Exactly. Why aren't the Greens fighting the all out

Assault on the environment or Trump's bellicosity toward nations? I thought the cared about the environment and keeping us out of war. Yet, they are silent.

[meadowlander]

15. Just like all those Muslims are silent about terrorist attacks.

Opposition to the Muslim Ban and the Dakota Pipeline are literally on the front page of their website which took me 15 seconds to Google.

Are you carding people at the protests to see who is a Green party member and who is a Democrat?

Why are you so quick to assume they aren't involved in the protests just because the media isn't specifically identifying them?

And where they have been involved in organising protests (like the Women's Marches) they are immediately decried on DU as being moles for Putin trying to undermine the Democratic party.

[bettyellen]

64. I don't see them IDing them selves or doing any grass roots party building... or having reps get out

There doing interviews. I don't think they're doing a decent job right now, because they need to drive interest instead of just blogging about it after.

[meadowlander]

67. What do you want them to do? Wear green stars?

It's always amazing how little people you pay no attention to and who the media doesn't consider worth covering actually do.

DU threw a shit fit the day before the Women's Marches because one of the organisers was "outed" as a Greenie.

[bettyellen]

78. Green stars? You're invoking Nazi bullshit why exactly?

[meadowlander]

80. How do you want them to "ID themselves" then?

[bettyellen]

82. I saw lots of groups promote themselves at the Women's March- unified color on signs -

W web addresses and handing out fliers and signing peoplemip on the start. So repulsive and low of you to conflate that with Nazis forcing Jews to wear stars. I'm guessing you're not so good at outreach.

[meadowlander]

84. Well, I'm certainly seeing some great examples on this thread.

[bettyellen]

87. Comparing DUers to Nazis now, WOW. This is fucking crazy.

:bye:

[LanternWaste]

125. A great irony is that you're stating a self-indictment with a straight face

" I'm certainly seeing some great examples on this thread..."

A great irony is that you're stating a self-indictment with a straight face and calm typing without being aware of it.

[m-lekktor]

36. Apparently you assume all those protesters out in the streets are Hillary supporting centrists.nt

[CajunBlazer]

50. For those Greens who might be protesting...

....I think the appropriate question for them would be, "Did you vote for Hillary in order to avoid this mess in the first place?"

[meadowlander]

68. And, moving forward and looking to 2018,

what possible purpose does that question serve besides putting people who would otherwise be on your side on the defensive?

[CajunBlazer]

70. Why do you find it necessary to defend the Greens?

[meadowlander]

72. Because it's human nature to root for the underdog

and when a party that gets 66 million votes wastes its time grumbling bitterly about the election being spoiled by a party that gets 1 million votes it makes that party look petty, insecure and unfocused.

We're in the middle of an all-out, full-on assault on American democracy. We need to stop whining about the Greens and stand the fuck up for working people and everyone else who is going to have their lives destroyed by the extreme right-wing policies pouring out of the White House.

You don't show leadership by bitching about a tiny minority that disagrees with you. And what the Democratic party needs desperately right now is real leadership and focus on the things that actually matter.

[CajunBlazer]

75. It is also human nature for people to defend those with whom they are alined

I suspect there is some of that going on here in DU. A number of people made their allegiances clear before the the end of the primaries and some of those people are still here.

[meadowlander]

77. Yes, congratulations,

your awesome powers of deductive reasoning have exposed me.

I have dual citizenship. I vote Green on the party ticket and Labour on the candidates in my other country and I voted for Clinton in 2016.

Now would you like to address the actual argument or continue your witch hunt against people you don't think deserve to be on the same side as you?

[CajunBlazer]

88. Dual Citizenship is not at all common

Your situation obviously was not the one to which I was referring. Besides, there are some big differences between the Green Party in the UK and the Green Party in the US. The Greens in the UK are sometime relevant and occasionally elect their candidates to parliament.

[Maru Kitteh]

71. We have reached the point where it is absolutely necessary to insist that those who have

purchased a share in this travesty through their active or passive support of Trump engage in some self-reflection and accept accountability so that this does not happen again.

[meadowlander]

73. Do you honestly think

rubbing their noses in it like a dog that shat the carpet is going to prompt that self-reflection?

Or that anyone who is ever going to come to the conclusion that they need to hold their noses and vote for Democrats hasn't already come to that conclusion and that anyone who is never going to get there isn't worth wasting time engaging?

[Earthican]

51. Here is one

Plus my immediate family and extended family and friends.

[Cha]

90. Hillary supporters are NOT "Centrists" so quit your false labeling.

[Demsrule86]

110. Stop attacking Hillary supporters...who are progressive...

one could argue that those who though Hillary worse than Trump are not progressive at all.

[we can do it]

117. They're not really green or they would have put environment first.

Not their little anti Hillary temper tantrum. Environment be damned with drump and it's on them.

[Demsrule86]

112. The Greens helped cause the assault on our environment so screw them...

I wish they would go away...they are useless at best and sometimes...downright evil as in helping to hand over the election to Trump. The Greens just as in the Bush fiasco have blood on their hands.

[NCTraveler]

25. Why would you like to extend the rule in a manner that would give cover...

to mentally bankrupt Trump supporters? This makes no sense. Stop people on this board from calling out Trump surrogates like Stein. At least you are open about who you want protected.

[Bradical79]

26. Jill Stein isn't a Democrat

Can't refight the primaries with someone who wasn't in the primaries, and isn't even part of the party.

[msanthrope]

42. Not a Democrat. Fuck her. nt

[jodymarie aimee]

76. totally agree adult person !!

so much work to do on so many issues and these guys want to play in the sandbox...my shovel...no, my bucket.....

[Hekate]

81. The only problem with forgetting Jill is she will be back in 2020, $5 Million richer....

....and touting her glorious recount efforts. In fact, I'm sure she's busy as we speak.

I'd be only too glad to stop talking about her, but she's too dangerous to be allowed to be forgotten.

[mopinko]

83. well, start remembering her in 2019, if

we are all still here. really. fuck this shit.

[Hekate]

85. Oh yeah. I'm not forgetting what she said and did.

Including photos of her at the special dinner with RT.

[Cha]

89. I think we do.. jill stein is a dangerous lying tool..

Link to tweet

they damn well will.. sitting on their millions while the Planet goes to shite and people go hungry and Immigrants banned from the US by "the bumbler" according the ever present idiot, jill stein

Dangerous#1 Dangerous#2 Dangerous#3 stein on trump & Hillary

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[mopinko]

91. to what end? she aint gonna give back the money. come 2020

who knows where the hell we will be. prognosticating is usual of limited use in stable times. in a whirlwind of change, i dont think the past is gonna be any kind of guide to the battles we will need to fight.
i doubt jill stein will be one of the big 10 things we have to sweat right now.
focus.
skip the bait.
dont pound the wedges.

[Cha]

92. We can multi-task.. stein doesn't get a pass.

[DFW]

98. Norm Ornstein is one of the coolest guys I know

He has undergone some extreme personal tragedy in recent years, and so has not been "out there" with as many one-liners as he used to, but he's still sharp as a tack. When I was in Washington last month, it was around the time of the inauguration, and I asked if he wanted to get together. He said he couldn't because he had accepted a speaking engagement in Colorado, because it was "the farthest place he could legitimately be from Washington" during the inauguration.

[Cha]

99. Mahalo for telling me that anecdote

about Norm Ornstein, DFW. I like his style.

[DFW]

100. So do I

You could listen to him for hours, whether one on one, or when he's addressing a crowd.

I once--exactly once--got to break him up instead of the usual other way around. It was December 2007, and I was in an impromptu discussion of the upcoming 2008 race for the Democratic nomination with Norm and Howard Dean. Howard was saying that he was surprised that Mark Warner didn't get into the race, and Norm let on that Warner had some difficult children at the time, and he didn't want to drag his family into the spotlight of a presidential primary. I spontaneously (and with a straight face) remarked that this was exactly the same reason I didn't get into the race. That cracked Howard and Norm up. Norm wasn't aware that he would be confronted with a similar situation several years later.

[Historic NY]

102. +1

she sided with Putin

[Cha]

114. Yeah, she did. dumbshit

[grantcart]

107. When I went to the Women's March in Tucson there were three Stein supporters who

were signing up people and soliciting donations. When I asked the leader if Clinton would really have been as bad as Trump she said "yes, but she would have gone slower".

If you think that Stein has changed then you are deluding yourself. They are of the Sarandon school of "it can only get better if it gets worse".

We should have one of these threads every week.

[yardwork]

5. Fuck Jill Stein.

[Gothmog]

6. Stein and the greenies gave us Trump

[Orsino]

14. 100 million Trump voters and non-voters gave us Trump.

Assisted by billuonaire dollars, free Trump airtime, the MSM and right-wing mythologies...and yes, a handful of third-party voters. With a little bit of blame left over for us Dems who were insufficiently enthusiastic and volunteery.

Stein's and Johnson's importance is greatly exaggerated.

[CajunBlazer]

52. Oh really, take a look at the vote totals in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Ohio

What would have happened in those three states had the Stein voters voted instead for Hillary? Don't bother telling me, I already know the answer and I suspect you do too.

[starshine00]

65. it surprises me how many people don't know that

yes these third party votes mattered and yes once again the third party have thrown the election to a hell demon as in 2000...why can they not learn, I don't understand it...one woman on twitter even told me she voted 'Stein for peace' which is a lot like voting 'tornadoes for trailer parks' or something...I do NOT understand their mentality and their inability to admit they were wrong.

[Orsino]

122. You're still cherry-picking.

The effects of Stein and Johnson voters are insignificant next to tens of millions of Trump voters, non-voters, the votes stolen by suppression, by media bullshit and billions in free Trump airtime. What you've blamed on third-party votes might just as well account for with an equal number of Trump ballots, or with the same number of registered boters who decided to stay home.

If you're attempting to diagnose a real problem, you can't just ignore what doesn't fit a favored narrative. We have many, many scapegoats from which to choose.

[CajunBlazer]

123. Yes, I am cherry-picking, but with good reason

Pennsylvania, Michigan and Ohio were the three states expected to go to Hillary and the states that put Trump over the top. Quit deflecting - my point remains valid - had Stein voters in those three states voted instead for Clinton she would be sitting in the White House today. In those three states the affects of Stein voters were not insignificant, they determined the election despite any real or imagined factors you may sight.

Let me also remind you of an old political truism: "Third parties are like bees, when they sting, they die."

[Orsino]

124. Your point pales a bit.

Those votes look artificially more significant because of the many, many more votes that weren't cast, were cast for Trump, weren't counted, or weren't cadt at all.

It is natural to be angry at those few who showed up and cast a ballot against both Trump and Clinton, but let's be honest. We are angry at the heresy, and selectively so when we ignore the actively malevolent votes and the voters who just couldn't be bothered.

Our problems are much more numerous, and much greater in magnitude, than a few Busters and Stein supporters. Pinning the blame largely on them is silly.

[CajunBlazer]

126. Why are you defending Stein voters?

[Orsino]

127. I'm doing something a little more nuanced than hating America or beating anyone's spouse.

Some of those Stein and Johnson voters must be second-guessing themselves by now, and if they were inclined to vote against dumbass fascism last year, some of them will be joining us next year. If they bought into the decades of Clinton-hate the MSM fed us, well, I think it unlikely that a Clinton will be running for president in 2020, and even were Hillary to run again, I think that fewer of them will be fooled again.

There are tens of millions more votes out there to win, though. We need to engage more people who don't consider themselves voters, since the GOP's gerrymandering is still in play. They have the usual electorate nearly neutralized, so we absolutely have to swamp them with new voters. Wagging fingers at third-party voters is fun and was possibly therapeutic, but there are much more significant demographics to win. We need to orient toward the next election, not the last.

[Demsrule86]

118. No it is not...and these are the same excuse used about 2000.

The Greens impede the progressive agenda...and they are way to close to Russia for my taste.

[starshine00]

34. I believe so

looking at the numbers and speculating if those third party voting nimrods had done the moral thing and voted HRC rather than wimp out. This article looks at if just half of them had http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/third-party-voters-played-key-role-election-results

To me it is tragic because the Yazidi people were slaughtered and are still subject to horrible atrocities because of the Nader candidacy in Bush v. Gore. !5 years from now who will be dying because of 3rd party voters. I don't blame the candidates as much as the people who beleived they really had an outside alternative, a non-harmful option. It isn't the non-voters that figured into this election.

[meadowlander]

9. Yep, let's keep beating this drum all the way to midterm losses.

Because this is what we really need to be spending our time and energy on right now instead of working out what was going on with the 47% of people who didn't vote at all and addressing it.

[Blue_true]

13. Maybe a lot of those people did not vote

Because Stein, Cornell West and Susan Sarandon loudly convinced them there was no difference between Clinton and Trump. In Florida alone, 160,000 people who VOTED left the President box blank.

[meadowlander]

18. I will literally eat my hat

if you can find me a single person who didn't vote in 2016 and who knows who Cornell West is, let alone didn't vote because he told them there was no difference between Clinton and Trump. If Jill Stein had that kind over sway of 47% of the population, she would be sitting in the White House right now.

People didn't vote because they weren't engaged and didn't understand how the issues being discussed would actually affect them.

We win in 2018 by bringing the reality home to those people and by fighting voter suppression, not by knocking 1.7% of the population over the head repeatedly for mistakes they made in the past.

[Blue_true]

19. The fact is that 1.7% have facilitated gross damage

To the Economy, Environment and help elect warmongers. You can paint it as you wish, vote totals out blood on the hands of that 1.7%. I don't oppose making efforts to reach the 47% that didn't vote for President, but I don't want people that claim to be purer than me making that hard.

[meadowlander]

22. Even if I agree with you

and 1.7% of the population does "have blood on its hands" that 1.7% now splits into two groups:

a. people who feel really shitty about it and aren't going to do it again, in which case how is hammering them over head with it going to accomplish anything other than making them feel unwelcome in the Democratic party? and

b. people who are never going to admit that they were wrong, in which case, you're just wasting oxygen berating them.

Either way, what does this kind of thing accomplish other than widening the divisions on the left?

The Democratic party needs to step up and *lead* FFS. And you don't lead by picking at scabs from the last election and tearing down people who are speaking up on your side. You lead by having a progressive and inclusive vision, by effectively communicating that vision and by setting a good example that inspires people.

There were people on this site telling other people to boycott the Womens' Marches because one of the dozens of organisers was a Green Party supporter. Seriously WTF?

[JHan]

30. The lesson is the danger of self sabotage...

and how we do it to "ourselves", time and time again - 2000, and now 2016 where the stakes were higher.

We don't understand power.

that's the lesson.

[meadowlander]

54. Fight the elephant in front of you, not the gnats on your heels.

We self-sabotage by wasting time on pointless bullshit instead of standing up and speaking out about things that people really care about.

"Vote for us, we really put Jill Stein in her place" isn't a message that gets votes.

"Vote for us, we stood up and fought like hell for your health care, your jobs, your kids' education, your fair shot at home ownership, your vacation time, your safe working conditions, the national park where you take your family every year, your safety and security". That gets us votes.

We need to be spending every speck of our energy speaking out together against the dismantling of our country, not pissing around complaining about how terribly misguided 1.7% of the population is.

[JHan]

61. It matters because the strategy of Steiners makes us impotent ..

Aside from the fact people can focus on two things at the same time i.e. focus on Trump and be pissed at Steiners , we run the risk of doing the same thing over and over again when we tear down our allies - which is what the #jillNotHill crowd did enthusiastically.

If we need to be reminded of the folly of "conscience voting" repeatedly, then yeah, I'm fine with threads like this. There was no way Jill was going to win, "protest votes" amounts to nothing. No one remember nor cares why someone "protested" with their vote, whatever that means, but they sure remember the consequences of throwing away their votes. 2016 was not the time for flights of fancy. And these flights of fancy helped diminish the better candidate. 3rd party voters played russian roulette not only with their lives, but with the lives of millions of others. They didn't help the world, but put it in greater jeopardy.

Votes matter, alliances matter. The option was either keep the ship steady where we make further progress towards an even greater and expansive social safety net, enfranchisement for all where we stop voter suppression, further progress towards a transformation of our energy tech towards renewables and a more connected global system made possible with open markets. .. OR... we risk Donald Trump and his advisors with their dystopian, isolationist, dickensian view of the world which would have stopped that progress. Obama wasn't faultless but we needed another similar to him in mindset - a left center-ish Politician to steady the course. Instead , the left threw a hissy fit and we're paying the price.

if we don't understand this, we're doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

[stevenleser]

95. If they were on our heels that would be one thing. They're not. They keep pulling this nonsense

and folks like you keep defending them for it.

We're going to keep after people like this until they learn. You can keep complaining about it and keep defending the folks that enable the George W. Bushes and Trumps of the world to come to power, the rest of us are going to, to use a metaphor you used, keep rubbing their noses in the shat they dumped on the carpet until they realize they shat the carpet.

[Glamrock]

33. Yep

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[starshine00]

37. x 1000

I said this on election night and got two replies, one from a third party voter in denial and the other from an HRC campaigner who couldn't believe that it was so close that these votes mattered, which they clearly did. Third party vote always goes to the winner, in this case Trump. I can't believe people are in such utopian delusion to believe they can make a choice like this and call it moral. I was not a big cheerleader for HRC but I know there is nothing moral about splittin the vote and giving the election and this kind of power to someone like Trump.

[delisen]

104. Stein, Sarandon and West had a lot of sway over voters I know: ill-informed voters who watched

only MSNBC, or only read The Nation, live in a political bubble in university towns or big cities, and tend to make fun of people who lived in what they dismissively called the "burbs." Big on opinion, short on facts. ready to follow a Leader who talks in generalities and has a narrow focus. People who have adopted an off-the-shelf political philosophy.

I lived through Nader's BS on no difference between the parties--which brought us G W Bush, and Sanders BS about the Democratic and Republican establishment. The parties are not alike.

In four years their will be a new crop of voters who think they are part of a Revolution or part of a vote your conscience movement, and some of the now shell-shocked bubble-dwellers may revert to their old ways.

Re-inventers of the Broken Wheel. I don't want to make it easy for them to continue screwing up my life.

[HassleCat]

28. I think you're right.

I saw a dead seagull yesterday. Pretty sure Jill Stein poisoned it.

[JHan]

31. Probably. ( btw I lol'd)

[Blue_true]

56. She certainly didn't help create the conditions to

Keep it from getting poisoned. When someone turn a stop sign, why does it matter that the family was killed by a speeding truck instead of a speeding sedan?

[Charles Bukowski]

57. On November 8th, I saw over a million liberal puritans set the progressive agenda

back 20 years. Pretty sure Jill Stein had something to do with it.

[meadowlander]

60. And, by way of context,

62 million barbarians at the gate and 90 million people who didn't turn up.

"Something to do with it"... sure. I'll grant you that Jill Stein was .65% of the problem.

Can we please do something about the other 99.35% of the problem now?

[HassleCat]

62. My favorite group, just have to give them a shout-out.

Registered Dems who voted Trump.

[delisen]

106. Well Said....and poetic. nt

[Squinch]

45. A one line TRUE observation is not "spending all our time and energy." The observation

is a perfectly legitimate one. There is no denying, after less than 2 weeks of Trump, that the Stein voters had their heads so far up their asses that they were looking at the world through their own nostrils.

[Cha]

93. We Can Multi-task.. freaking stein does NOT get a pass.

Link to tweet

they damn well will.. sitting on their millions while the Planet goes to shite and people go hungry and Immigrants banned from the US by "the bumbler" according the ever present idiot, jill stein

Dangerous#1 Dangerous#2 Dangerous#3 stein on trump & Hillary

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[ismnotwasm]

10. This is important to bring up

Because a percentage of 3rd party voters are going to try and sabotage the Democrat Party--again--and we need to fight that tooth and nail

[LenaBaby61]

12. "Two years is a long, long time."

WHO KNOWS if our votes will be counted or if we'll be able to vote in 1-2 years. Under this tRumputin DOJ with AG Jeff Sessions riding shot-gun, MILLIONS of Democrats might be purged, crosschecked, voter disenfranchised/voter suppressed right OFF of the voting rolls even in BLUE states in 2018 and in 2020. Most in the so-called Liberal live & print press doesn't care--their bottom line is all about ratings, democracy be damned. The GOP will keep their orange, bloated, lying, racist, ignorant, evil, conflicted and Illegitimate-in-Chief vehicle who they helped install into the presidency there for as long as they can, and like I mentioned above, they're happy as a kid at Christmastime knowing what they'll be able to get away with and maybe even improve upon as far as disenfranchising Dem voters the next time around as far as voting in 2018 and 2020. And tRumputin's buddy and blackmailer V-lad--what will be HIS roll will be and will he/ruskies be "allowed" more "access" into our elections or have complete cyber-hacking access to our voting machines in our next round of elections. As for Democratic folks in the Senate and House, who even knows if they'll have the spine to speak up if they see voter disenfranchisement etc. Some have spoken out about putin/russia's interference into our elections etc., but nowhere near enough. Yes, I know the so-called liberal media hasn't really called tRumputin or the GOP out, and that they really are all about ratings now. Rethugs are changing the rules as they go along and Dems have NO power, but Democrats can still filibuster, speak out and obstruct and slow down Senate Rethugs--Well, those Democrats who are still Democrats (I wonder about "Dem-lites" Joe Manchin, Tulsi Gabbard and now Mark Warner etc.)

The tRumputin/GOP/ruskie,Comey,FakiLeaks,etc. "cabal" REALLY got away with voter suppressing Democrats this past GE. Who knows what they'll be able to get away with the next time around, and in plain sight with their vehicle--aka--Illegitimate-in-Chief/Nazi Bannon running the White House.

[Blue_true]

16. The old voter suppression excuse.

I live in a state where republicans have tried to suppress the vote for years, but people can register at the DMV when getting or renewing a driver's license. People can also register while getting a state issued ID at the DMV. The cost for an ID is something like $35, a month of beer drinking money for most people. Yes, republicans made it so that those voters need two picture ID's, but what those IDs are is known and published (likely a Court mandated requirement), Democrats can organize and make sure people have those IDs and defeat republican efforts. In my state, people vacant register at the DMV and at Libraries anytime during their operating hours.

[moda253]

35. So in essence you have to pay to vote?

Right? That's what you are saying?

[Blue_true]

58. No. I am saying beat them at their game, take power

And then change the fucking rules so that they are fair. If we sit around whining about republicans stacking the deck instead of beating them at their own game, we get no where but laughed at and ignored.

[LenaBaby61]

96. The old voter suppression excuse.

Is NOT an excuse.

We had horrible problems this past election cycle concerning voting as you know, and for those Democrats who were crosschecked off the voting rolls to the tune of 450,000 in Michigan, and 490,00 in NC. Hillary lost Pa., MI & WI by 107,000 votes, and when you consider how many Dems were purged in various places off of the voter rolls--it's shameful, but we know ho thuglicans roll.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/14/1599330/-Crosscheck-Removed-450K-Voters-in-MI-270-K-in-AZ-and-590-K-in-NC

And yes, we can organize and make sure that people have ID'S but $35 is not easy for everybody to come by. Now, I know there are some Senior citizens who enjoy their beer, but NONE of the Seniors I know personally are beer drinkers, and thy live on TIGHT budgets, and I know several who cut their pills in half and who sometimes do without enough to eat. I do as much as I can for them when I can, but I'm living on a tight budget myself nearing 60 years of age. I'm very lucky that I have many wonderful friends and that within our group we all check on each other and help each other out whenever possible, also very happy to be living in California and that we have a super majority here of Democrats meaning that Democrats RUN this state with very little Thuglican input thankfully. Admittedly it's expensive living here in California, but I watch my budget carefully so I don't have to live anyplace else--I feel safer here. When you look around this country more and more of our freedoms, voting/civil rights are being stripped and taken away in what used to be Blue states (Michigan/Wisconsin/Pa.), and there has been yet more frightening cases of voter suppression/voter disenfranchisement told about and seen all across this country and these stories are going to increase and get a whole lot worse under the tRumputin/Bannon/GOP/Sessions regime.

As for voter ID which currently costs $35.00 in many places, I doubt it will stay that amount--could go up to $75.00 and especially since tRumputin's another Sideshow Bob whose about pricing people out of as much as he CAN, that price will go up. He and his cabinet of deplorables are there to make $$$. He also doesn't pay taxes and to pay back those he owes big time (putin, russian oligarchs & the like. This orange ass is ALL about money and about scamming people. He's ALL about hurting people who get in his way. He'll definitely be out to REALLY suppress and outright stop Democrats from voting leading up to 2018 and 2020. I mean, look at all of the chaos, confusion, problems and pain he's causing with his unconstitutional Muslim Ban. Voter suppression is on his bucket list concerning Dems this next year and beyond. He's also going out of his way to insult and threaten our allies. The GOP doesn't like him, but will say nothing for as long as possible--because they must keep THEIR useful idiot in the presidency for as long as possible so they can turn whats left of our democracy into what they've long wanted--A Kleptocracy.

Yes, we have to fight back and organize and hold our leaders (Dems) accountable an demand that they speak up--we also have to contact the GOP as well although they really don't CARE about fairness or about listening to anything we as an opposing political party has to say. We also cannot kid ourselves--we as Democrats/Progressives and in some cases Independents have a HUGE task ahead of us as it relates to keeping some semblance of voting/civil rights in tact while fighting voter disenfranchisement/voter suppression voter intimidation etc. It's going to be an extremely difficult, tedious task because we're in uncharted waters. As for the media, most in the are scared of tRumputin--who don't want to get on his bad side because they're afraid they'll get frozen out and have no access to him (IE: CNN), and I've read that many are scared of him tweeting something negative and nasty about them.

It's a shame that we have the worst, most unintelligent, unaware, racist, and hated man installed into the presidency.

[oasis]

105. Thanks for posting info. I'm bookmarking for future reference. nt

[Starry Messenger]

17. Her voters are still self-righteously defending their vote.

I haven't see a single one express remorse.

[Blue_true]

20. Same happened with Nader voters, many of whom

Repeated their lunacy with a Stein vote. They need to be called out and humiliated until they Shut The Fuck Up.

[starshine00]

38. me either, they are proud

their only moral choice would have been to stay home. Someone above said they don't understand power, I would say it is more like they dont' understand things like math, or cause and effect, etc.

[DefenseLawyer]

21. What is your goal here? n/t

[pnwmom]

24. To remind people who need reminding that Jill Stein is NOT an ally. n/t

[starshine00]

39. these are some of the most delusional people I have ever encountered

they don't seem to even have the ability to admit they made a mistake. It is almost like they are psychopathic.

[Blue_true]

59. They are like Trump. Little wonder they could not see the danger. nt

[Glamrock]

43. With all due respect pnwmom,

The vast percentage of the tiny percentage who voted for her are never going to vote Democratic party anyway. Trying to sway 1.7% when there's 47% up for grabs seems like a huge waste of time, IMO. We need to chalk up that 2% as neither a vote for us nor a vote for the GOP and campaign accordingly. These people are unreachable purists. Might as well be railing against Deese nuts and Vermin Supreme. The end result is the same...

[pnwmom]

49. Some of them still come here and try to push her ideas. It doesn't hurt other DUers

to remind them she isn't an ally.

[CajunBlazer]

53. What would have happened if Stein voters had voted instead for Hillary

....in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Ohio. Lesson: Every vote is important - even when the delusional cast them.

[NCTraveler]

27. Reminding poeple that we have someone claiming to be on the left....

who is anything but on the left. A clear scam artist who blatantly lies in order to hurt progressives. She is every bit as mentally bankrupt as HA Goodman. Why would you take issue with someone who opposes progressives being called out?

[DefenseLawyer]

41. I guess I would prefer convincing people that we understand the issues of the disaffected

and then convincing them that we are worth supporting. If we can do that it doesn't matter who Jill Stein even is, much less what her motives are. I'm less about picking fights, I guess. This seems to me like someone trying to pick off a scab.

[NCTraveler]

46. She is not disaffected as you claim.

We need to keep this front and center and there is no better time than now. Those who are truly disaffected, and voted for Stein, now clearly see how bad they have been scammed. There is nothing wrong with pointing it out at a time when it could be no more obvious.

"I'm less about picking fights"

Stein is not. To the point she has gone full on deception in order to get Trump elected.

[DefenseLawyer]

47. I'm talking about the people that are drawn to her message

I assumed that was obvious.

[NCTraveler]

48. I mentioned them as well.

I assumed that was obvious.

[msanthrope]

44. Vengeance. nt

[pnwmom]

23. It's working GREAT. She netted $4 million from her drive for the audits

that she knew had a minuscule chance of overturning the election, because she didn't meet the deadline in PA and the margin there wasn't small enough to qualify for an automatic recount. Her only option was to file a last minute petition in court, and the judge just laughed at it.

[Mike Nelson]

29. Jill...

...Stein is NOT an ally. Look at what Bernie Sanders did - challenge Hillary, change the Democratic Party for the better and fully support her against Trump. The Green Party should join the Democrats, but Jill Stein did not. We should never trust the Greens under leaders who set Progressive causes back.

[starshine00]

40. the carnage of Nader is still being acted out on the bodies of Yazidi women via serial rape

all these many years later. I don't know what it takes for these people to learn, and I shudder when I think who will be paying for their horrible choices still in a dozen years or so.

[delisen]

108. So true. n/t

[otohara]

55. Whuuutt?

He damaged the Dem party perhaps beyond repair..

Just yesterday undermining Vice President Biden on DNC pick and stating his "supporters" - not ours, but his... probably gave trump the win over trade agreements.

I will never follow Sanders

[Tiggeroshii]

32. Stupid. It's going stupid.

[mopinko]

63. and all over the world, people wonder what the fuck happened to the political process

here. how the hell did russian trolls drive wedges everywhere?
because we have no clue how to resist the bait.

i'm not calling you a troll, or anyone in this thread a troll.
but here we all are taking the bait.
we need to stop taking the bait.
we need to see a useless argument for what it is, and treat it like a fetid rat.

[Blue_Tires]

69. Hillary lost, so she accomplished her mission

and is laughing all the way to the bank, sadly...

[mfcorey1]

74. Where is the money?

[DinahMoeHum]

79. GREEN Getting Republicans Elected Every November

n/t

[pamdb]

86. her and Gary Johnson

Need to just crawl away somewhere, never to be seen or heard from again.

[Uponthegears]

101. Stein's an idiot

And as much a fraud as Nader when it comes to actually being a "leftist."

However, did you ever consider that it wasn't as much a handful of Stein voters that cost us the election as it was that MUCH LARGER GROUP of white suburban women who SHOULD HAVE been interested in what Hillary had to say and what she represented but instead cued up behind a monster?

[beachbum bob]

103. its done...time to focus on 2018

hopefully those voters (and non-voters) learned a lesson not to be ever forgotten

[Demsrule86]

109. She doesn't care...She is an entititled wealthy white woman past

the age of having to worry about needing an abortion...I despise her and will forever...she fleeced people out of their money for her fake recounts...and she is a Putin lover...one wonders if she and Trump colluded.

[Gothmog]

113. Stein can rot in a warm place

[ehrnst]

115. Hope her followers have plenty of crystals when they lose their health care coverage. (nt)

[nikibatts]

116. Ask her in a tweet. She will answer.

[Lee-Lee]

119. Based on the recount money it's doing real well for her

For everyone who else not so much.

[heaven05]

120. yep