The median income of a coal miner is about $80K

[Recursion]

Can we please find a new symbol of white victimhood?

[leftstreet]

1. The loss of ANY employment is traumatic n/t

[Recursion]

10. Not everybody gets the job they want

Electricians and pipefitters are hiring people out of fast food restaurants, right now. In West Virginia. I've lost my patience with people who expect their parents' job to be handed to them.

[Merlot]

11. So why are the coal minesrs getting all this attention?

Yes, the loss of employment for anyone is awful. Why all this focus on coal miners when the loss of their (apparently well-paying) jobs at least benefits the environment?

If they were making that much they should be better prepaired for unemployment than someone who lost a job at a call center that moved overseas.

Why is everyone SO concerned about coal miners getting their jobs back? Are their jobs a lynchpin to the American economy?

[Recursion]

15. Right? What about the typing pools?

When will typing pool jobs come back?

[meadowlander]

18. Because they are swing voters in swing states

and they would be voting for Democrats if we were out there engaging with them better.

Instead of blaming them for not being better prepared for their jobs becoming obsolete, we should be championing green infrastructure projects and showing them how that will put them back to work.

Also $80K seems like a lot until you have to quit work at 40 because your body is tapped out and you get lung cancer and you're still supporting most of your kids into their 20s and 30s because they can't get jobs except in fast food because the mines aren't hiring.

[JI7]

24. they do talk about green jobs . hillary regularly talked about it

[meadowlander]

32. I know they do.

They need to talk about it more and in more detail and show results.

The problem is that democratic messaging is not getting through the tornado of bullshit in the media every time Trump tweets or another leaked email turns up.

So we need to find a new, better way to get the message through.

[JI7]

33. no. the problem is thst disagree with dems on many social issues and there is the racial factor

[meadowlander]

40. But we can get them to vote for democrats if we can get them to see the economic benefits

to themselves of doing so.

I don't need 100% to agree with every other person who votes for a democrat. In the current political climate, voting for a democrat is enough.

Many coal miners supported democrats when we were staunchly pro-union and when we went out and showed people in these communities that we were fighting hard to improve their working conditions, to get them fair pay, and to get them medical benefits when they fell sick.

Republicans were able to exploit them to suggest that it was the environmental movement taking away their jobs, instead of competition from overseas.

I don't buy into the idea that the entire rust belt is so misogynistic and racist that they would vote for a Wall Street tycoon over any woman or black person that was showing them concrete economic benefits for their region.

[JI7]

44. they support trumps ban on muslims and deportations

[meadowlander]

50. "They" are not a monolith.

They are human beings who form a community which includes divergent views and different levels of political awareness and understanding.

The key is to peel off the simply misinformed by showing that we are the party that has actually got their backs and is looking out for their interests.

We didn't lose by a lot in any of these states. And that margin can easily be explained by people who just didn't understand that Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing. Or who didn't follow the Trump-Russia connection. Or who thought Hillary was going to steal their guns but didn't realize that Trump was going to steal their kids' educations and healthcare and their retirement savings.

We move forward by going out and having actual conversations with people to raise consciousness and awareness, not by labeling them deplorables or assuming that they are so stupid and racist that they will continue to vote against their own self-interest even when it becomes personally obvious to them that that is what they are doing.

[JI7]

53. they continue to support trump now

[meadowlander]

59. We're clearly talking past each other

and I've said everything I have to say on this topic but I will just reiterate that we don't move forward by writing people off. We're in this situation because we spent 30 years not challenging hate radio and religious indoctrination and right wing internet and Fox news in these parts of the country.

The only way out of this situation is to genuinely engage with people who disagree with us and to present them with a counter-narrative that they can relate to and that appeals to their emotions to the same degree that Trump does.

[JI7]

61. so we write off black and brown people instead. their top issues were being anti blm

Anti refugees and anti immigrants.

[meadowlander]

65. No, and that's a ridiculous thing to take from what I said.

We can support people in these regions on economic issues without agreeing with them on racial ones.

And if we don't bother to engage at all, which is what you are advocating, then the racism just festers and spreads.

[JI7]

67. they voted for fucking trump. they have to admit they were wrong

First. And i doubt they want a brown person engaging with them.

[GulfCoast66]

98. What??

They have to admit they were wrong before what?? They are allowed to vote for the Democratic Candidate? You even desire their vote?

I know lots of folks who voted for Trump. As this presidency spirals into the toilet I can think of absolutely no reason to rub their noses into it. It might make me feel better but will do nothing to get them to change their vote in 2018 or 2020.

I do not disagree with you that while they may have dressed up their reasons for voting for Trump in an economic costume, under the cloth it was all about race, gender and religion. I still cannot get my head around the religion thing with Trump being a total hedonist and all, but there it is.

[kwassa]

99. I totally agree with you. We get nowhere without engaging.

There is no other viable path.

[Beartracks]

55. Every one of them?? Would love to see that survey.

Link?

==============

[JI7]

58. the ones that voted for him. after all the ones whose top concern was economy mostly voted hillary

[Docreed2003]

70. Funny how, in the 60's...

They fully supported the Dems pushing social issues like the Appalachian initiatives developed under Kennedy and passed under Johnson. They've completely forgotten who brought them electricity and running water!

[JI7]

74. that was before non whites started to get rights and more power

[Docreed2003]

78. True...

I'm just saying, the best they could have hoped from the GOP was jack and shit.

[tblue37]

73. And she was a woman--which for some is just a bridge too far. nt

[JI7]

75. yes. sexism was a huge factor.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Town Halls.

We should be having them every weekend. Get the media to cover them and concentrate on red areas that used to be Democratic strongholds.

[bettyellen]

37. And they've learned to blame democrats because "regulations"

Bunch of suckers

[JI7]

47. well democrats DO support regulations. people talk like these are well meaning simpletons

But they support the pipelines and getting rid of epa.

And based on that they voted for the right candidate that will do that.

[bettyellen]

101. Oh I agree- they go along till they're poisoned and then expect Erin fucking Brickavich

[Jonny Appleseed]

19. Somehow we've been conditioned to find coal miners endearing because of harsh conditions and coal

itself's role in the industrial revolution.

When 30 Rock had to come up with the most sensationalist possible story for a joke, they picked Chinese baby coal miners trapped in a mine and being brought rescue supplies by puppies.

[meadowlander]

35. Coal miners were are the forefront of the early labor union movement.

It's a truly shit job done extremely brave and hardworking people who live in regions with a long history of exploiting them ruthlessly.

[WinkyDink]

87. Exactly so. The Molly Maguires were from my area, from towns my coal-mining relatives resided.

[WinkyDink]

86. Wow. This isn't a game Democrats play, pitting job-loss against job-loss. Even a brain surgeon can't

just up and be an electrician.

But to your query: Coal-miners are the backbone of the Industrial Revolution, here and in England.

Otherwise known as the birth of the economic superiority of the United States, for there is no steel without coal; there are no cars, bridges, airplanes, buildings, without steel. And so forth.

Our canal system was for the transporting of coal. Coal was King.

Now King Coal has been deposed, and perhaps rightly so (although Chernobyl and Fukushima (and hard-by Coal Country's own Three-Mile Island) prove that even some forms of "clean energy" can kill).

But his subjects are still living on the land, as feudal serfs after the Black Plague wiped out the nobility. Where to go? How to live? To whom to pledge new allegiance?

They made a bad bet, and I, the daughter of a coal-miner in Schuylkill County, PA., born in COALdale hospital, have a hard time drumming up sympathy.

Yet coal-miners also represent the strength of unions, also dying off in this Great Extinction Event known as the Trump Administration.

So let them have their publicity, even if we cannot give them either sympathy or jobs.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

2. And that's bad why? n/t

[Recursion]

8. It's not. It's hard work that deserves reward

But coal miners aren't poor. Attempted coal miners are.

[panader0]

27. 80 grand if you have a job.

Zero if you don't.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Excellent point.

[Squinch]

38. Every job only pays if you actually have it. I'm not complaining that the dirth of pilot

jobs is a personal affront to me because I'm not a pilot.

Because that would be dumb.

[panader0]

43. Pilot jobs aren't disappearing.

Coal miner jobs are. Coal is history.

[Squinch]

48. OK, then typists. Or buggy whip makers. I can't get a job as a typist. That's not an

affront to me.

Yes, coal is history. These are people who voted overwhelmingly for Trump because he pandered to their demand that the government bring back coal jobs. Which are largely obsolete. Their demand was absurd. He also appealed to the racism that is often endemic to coal country locations.

Yet still they are often held up by Republicans as a wronged contingent because "Obama took away all the coal jobs."

[Recursion]

94. Name me a job that pays if you don't have it?

I don't really see your point

[demmiblue]

3. What is their likelihood of facing additional healthcare issues?

[Jonny Appleseed]

22. Probably high

which is what makes voting for the guy who is gonna make your healthcare more expensive particularly strange.

[lapfog_1]

4. those would be the union coal miners?

unions that the Trump and republicans want to destroy.

[cwydro]

5. That's a helluva job.

I've been inside a coal mine; they deserve whatever they're paid.

Of course, I don't imagine there's a lot of job growth in that industry.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

23. I agree.

That's hard, dangerous labor they do and they deserve that kind of pay.

[Squinch]

39. But their children don't deserve the guarantee of a coal job.

[meadowlander]

45. But they do deserve an opportunity of some job.

And in many regions in the rust belt those opportunities do not exist.

And the children and their parents will vote for whoever seems most likely to make those opportunities appear. So let's be the party doing that.

[Squinch]

51. We have just seen that this could not be further from the truth. Hillary had some

practical and innovative programs to bring industry and opportunities to coal country and the rust belt. Donald had not a thing for them but platitudes and racism.

They voted overwhelmingly for him.

[meadowlander]

54. So let's make those programs a reality

and make sure that we get the credit for them.

Like I said upthread, it's a messaging problem.

[Squinch]

56. We can't because they voted against the Democrats. So the Democrats are out of power.

Because of the way they voted. The people who want to grind them under heel are in power. And the people in the coal areas I have visited are happier than pigs in shit.

[meadowlander]

60. Not everything revolves around who holds Congress and the executive branch.

Why doesn't the Democratic party or some democratic-affiliated non-profits get out there in these communities are start piloting some of these programs?

[Squinch]

62. Why are you asking me? Maybe you should make it happen.

[meadowlander]

72. I'm not asking you to do it personally.

I'm saying that the party and non-profits and unions, which have the resources and the networks and the experience, should be going into these areas and showing a good faith effort to bring jobs and social support to people that need them. I would be happy to donate to an effort like that.

Why is this an idea that you are so hostile to?

[Squinch]

76. Why would these groups do this? The people in these areas have shown by their vote that

they don't value such things.

[meadowlander]

80. Appalachia was a blue region for decades and can be again.

I'm not prepared to write off an entire region based on one election result.

For example, West Virginia only voted for a Republican presidential candidate twice from 1960 to 2000. They've also voted for a Democratic Senator every year since 1960, and consistently elected Democratic House members until 2010.

These are historically pro-union "purple" states trending blue who went for Trump solely because he promised them coal jobs back. They will vote for Dems if we can show them we're the party that actually gives a shit about them and their kids and once Trump is exposed as a conman fronting for the 1%.

[JI7]

85. voted voted for pro trade big business Romney also

[delisen]

97. The loathed Saul Alinsky said when poor people win the poverty battle they become middle class

they develop the same attitudes of the people who used to look down on them.

So there is always work for change agents and organizers-as long as they keep responding to the have-nots.

Many coal miners seem to be successful enough to identify with the bosses.

Democrats chose to not lie to them about coal coming back. We could have done what the Trumps and the tiller sons do-say one thing in private but another in public.

Of course we might have turned off our environmentalist voters.

Personally I think the 100000 to 200000 votes in a handful of states does not warrant some huge about-face in policy.

Sen Byrd had a winning formula for staying in office in W Virginia. He brought jobs in by bringing in federal money and locating federal offices there. They wanted to stay where they were and they wanted some decent jobs-a lot of corporations weren't interested but Senator Byrd was able to wheel and deal in the Senate to get the people of West Virginia jobs which allowed them to stay in W Virginia.

[JI7]

77. we need govt funding and taxes to do that and they voted against it

No. The party and other orgs have limited resources.

[JI7]

63. how about poor minority communities ?

[meadowlander]

66. It's not an either/or

we should have programs to support both.

[Squinch]

69. No, no. They have to do that bootstrap thing. Because it's different.

[lunasun]

103. You notice that too huh? People don't want to talk about the violence in Chicago being related

to poverty . It's just a bad place with too many murders no connections to what the economy is in these areas . This summit below was last year but still holds relatively and I never see much thought on addressing the struggles of poor minority communities here just the murder rate is bad that's all really that is pointed at. But coal miners white rural areas how many of those are repeated concerns daily on thier struggles .
https://greatcities.uic.edu/2016/01/25/young-black-and-out-of-work/

[JI7]

64. why don't you do it ?

[RedWedge]

6. Cite?

ETA: I ask because I find info that says the median is closer to $50k.

[doc03]

42. The ones I know make $100000 or more and that includes non-union

miners. I am in Ohio, maybe some non-union miners in southern West Virginia make that little. I know a lot of miners
and retired miners. I can't think of a retired miner that doesn't have severe health problems.

[Angry Dragon]

7. and they die too soon

[demmiblue]

16. Ignore him... his family situation is set, from what I have read. n/t

[Angry Dragon]

21. ??????????????

[demmiblue]

25. His wife is pretty accomplished (i.e. breadwinner*) from what he has discussed...

in previous posts. He is speaking from a point of economic privilege (if he was being honest, that is).

* There is nothing wrong with the woman being the bread winner, BTW.

[Squinch]

46. This is a creepy post.

[JI7]

49. i was wondering what was going on there

Thought it was posted in the wrong thread or something.

[demmiblue]

68. He has discussed this at length on DU.

Making an observation about what he has posted is not creepy... it is just facts. Facts that he happily posted.

[Squinch]

71. Yep. It's creepy. You're saying someone should be ignored because you decide that his

personal situation makes him unworthy of having an opinion. It's creepy. You should delete.

[demmiblue]

79. I am saying his opinion should be ignored due to economic/status privilege.

We can disagree on this topic... I am totally fine with that.

I am not fond of the fact that you are calling me creepy, though.

[Squinch]

81. What income level is the cut-off for people to be allowed to engage in this conversation?

And who decides whose opinion is ignored?

I'm not calling you creepy. I'm calling the post, and the sentiment that someone should be ignored out of hand because their wife may or may not be their family's breadwinner, creepy.

Should a stay-at-home woman be ignored on this topic too? What about a retiree on a pension?

[demmiblue]

83. It is obvious that my post(s) totally flew over your head.

Now you are making them into something else.

If you want to see what I am about, you can always look at my journal.

Please, just stop.

[Squinch]

84. Okay. "Ignore him because his wife is a very good bread winner" means something

entirely different from "Ignore him because his wife is a very good bread winner."

Obviously it did fly right over my head.

[demmiblue]

90. Squinch, I hope you get a good night's sleep...

and that we can come together in the days to come.

FDT.

[JI7]

100. They didn't seem to have a problem with Trump's Money

[obamanut2012]

89. Agreed -- wtf

[demmiblue]

95. Meh

[Recursion]

96. My wife is accomplished, creepy stalker

What does that have to do with anything?

[Starry Messenger]

9. I wouldn't care, except evidently they voted to make my life worse too

And I make a hell of a lot less, despite being a coastal elite.

In theory I support their struggle, but emotionally, they've lost my trust. I'm into protecting the "least of us," for now.

[Merlot]

14. I'm also a "costal elite" who makes less than that.

Way less. And never had health insurance until the ACA.

I can't even in theory support their struggle.

You always have to be prepaired for what the economy throws your way. If they didn't prepair, that's on them. No one's job lasts forever.

[Starry Messenger]

20. I'm in the same boat with health insurance.

The steady flow of sad articles about the plight of the heartland have been grating. I'm an adjunct, with no guarantee of employment from semester to semester AND my job requires a terminal degree.

My ancestors were from a mining town, so I get the "way of life" that mining creates as a culture. It isn't pretty when it gets obsolete and your town's mine closes. It's not just loss of jobs, but loss of folkways established for generations.

But they voted down the person who wanted to help with programs for transitioning. There isn't much more the rest of us can do, after that.

[JHan]

28. coastal elites unite!

[Starry Messenger]

29. Woot!

[Squinch]

41. I love a latte! I qualify!

[obamanut2012]

91. Starry and I prefer elite baked goods

[Squinch]

92. Lol!

[Kimchijeon]

12. I'd say retail/food workers are a good example then

No unions to speak of for most, shitty conditions, fired at the drop of a hat etc.

Then again not just "white" as far as the demographic goes

[Recursion]

13. Exactly

Hillary Clinton won the actual working class, resoundingly. The "white working class" is a nostalgic phantom.

[crazycatlady]

17. Everyone should work retail/food service for at least one year

[JI7]

57. those jobs depend a lot on management

And it's not surprising that stores where employees appear happier and things just look better usually are treated better.

While other places are closing.

[JCanete]

26. This is a profession that is likely to kill you early, and the inconsistency of the work on top

of that that could leave you unemployed and dying with no medical benefits. Are there people even worse off? Yeah.

But why shouldn't we appeal to people who have these jobs. We are trying to get them to see that they are shooting themselves in the foot. I think we can agree they identify with themselves, if they still fail to identify with others. It is important to make the appeal that they need to stop trusting the people telling them lies, not just about their jobs and healthcare and security, but about immigrants and people of color and homosexuals.

Or maybe I'm missing your point. What is your beef here?

[beam me up scottie]

30. Yeah, why the sudden focus on this particular trade?

Why are their struggles being minimized? Are they and their families any less worthy of compassion?

[Eko]

36. Seems like if you are making 80g a year

you could afford something like this.

[gopiscrap]

52. No kidding

[WinkyDink]

82. Are you joking with your question? Maybe YOU would like some nice Black Lung disease?

[BainsBane]

88. The problem is not that salary

but that many former coal miners no longer have those jobs.

[delisen]

93. I have known people from coal country who resent miners because they drive up

prices in the coal mining areas and low wage workers have a hard time getting by.

The coal miner struggle from past decades in like a romantic story. Everything I have been reading today seems to indicate that the miners want to keep their way of life because it is lucrative or what they enjoy.

Is it a modern version of featherbedding.

I don't know but Appalachian poverty was a cause JFK ran on and although many programs were instituted in the 60's and 70's here we are today-Appalachian poverty.

In 1960 many people could relate and respond to poverty among white people, whereas they were not so quick to respond to poverty among non-whites.

[guillaumeb]

102. Half above, half below.

And appalling working conditions.