Treason

[milestogo]

According to the law: Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 807; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(2)(J), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

How is 'enemy' defined?

Edit: I'm trying to imagine the reaction if Trump were found guilty of treason and sentenced to death.

[GP6971]

1. The problem with that

is Russia is an adversary and not a declared enemy.

[colbertforpresident]

2. Rico Act

is more like it.

[H2O Man]

5. Definitely RICO.

[GP6971]

6. Yep, more appicable

and fewer restraints for proving.

[H2O Man]

7. It's really

why RICO was enacted. And just saying that shows how offensive this administration is. Just terrible.

[LaydeeBug]

3. It's just that it doesn't say "declared" enemy AND cyber war IS an act of WAR, so....nt

[longship]

9. Alas, state of war is also clearly defined in the US Constitution.

Only the US Congress can declare war, and has not done so since 8 Dec 1941.

Of course, treason is also specifically defined in the US Constitution, but people conveniently do not quote that particular section of law here.

So I will quote it. It's really simple. Here, from Article III:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

And to anybody who would actually wish we were at war with Russia just so that a dubious treason charge could be used as a political tool, all I can say is that I was in junior high school when the Cuban missile crisis happened and I want none of that same sauce. BTW, we weren't at war then either. Thankfully we had JFK. Now we have a likely madman in the Oval Office who has pondered publically why we cannot use our nuclear weapons.

Also, one must consider why treason is defined in the constitution in the first place. It is because in monarchy Europe charges of treason were used to eliminate political opponents. Consider Thomas More as an exemplar. No wonder James Madison put this particular clause in the US Constitution.

That is why I cannot and will not align with the DU treason screechers.

Call it anything, but don't call it treason. Our republic would be greviously damaged by that. We are not monarchy Europe.

[clementine613]

10. Minor Nitpick...

We've actually declare war five times since Dec 8 1941 (all within the context of WWII).

Dec 11, 1941 against Germany and Italy
Jun 4 1942 against Bulgaria, Hungary, Rumania.

Sources:

https://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/history/h_multi_sections_and_teasers/WarDeclarationsbyCongress.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Formal

[milestogo]

11. We live in an era where things are not called by what they truly are...

Did we not fight a war in korea?

Did we not fight a war in viet nam?

Did we not fight wars in the middle east, afghanistan, and iraq?

[clementine613]

13. We did.

All I did was correct the previous poster who said that we (meaning Congress) haven't declared war since Dec 8 1941. Where did you pick up from my words that the other conflicts that we've been involved in were not actually wars.

You may not like it, but despite the fact that those were wars, they were not declared wars by Congress.

[Lurks Often]

19. No, at least not as defined by US law

and while we can argue the semantics all day long, Donald Trump is NOT going to be charged with treason and he is not going to be removed from office via impeachment or Section 4 of the 25th Amendment.

[milestogo]

20. Are you a psychic?

Just because treason is unlikely doesn't mean impeachment won't happen.

[Cary]

27. You don't know that

It's been 65 days of.breathtaking incompetence. As much as I have despised Republicans I never dreamed they would sink this low, so I cannot rule out anything. So far they prove the old saw: give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.

[longship]

12. Actually, Germany and Italy declared war on the USA.

That was a big mistake by Germany and Italy. FDR played them on that. The 8 Dec 1941 declaration was only against Japan on purpose. Churchill was in on this, too.

I was not aware of the 4 June 1942 declarations. I doubt that congress did that preemptively, so technically we wouldn't be at war unless they declared war against the USA. I will look it up.

Thanks for the response.


Looks like you are correct about the 4 June declarations. But did those countries declare war on the USA first? More looking up in my future. Never miss an opportunity to learn something new.

Thank you very much.

[clementine613]

14. You're correct....

.... that Germany and Italy declared war on us first, but we reciprocated the favor.

[longship]

16. That would be SOP.

And Churchill and FDR deliberately played Germany. Hitler could not resist. The USA deliberately did not declare war on Germany on 8 Dec 1941, but when Hitler could not wait any longer and Mussolini followed like a good puppy dog, Congress was happy to oblige them. That unified the isolationist factions in congress with those who were for war.

FDR played it perfectly.

[LaydeeBug]

18. Once *AGAIN* you do not disprove my point. You're welcome.

Last edited Sun Mar 26, 2017, 02:27 PM - Edit history (1)

[longship]

25. I would think that treason would be difficult to demonstrate given its definition.

Any federal judge is going to know the US Constitution well, in addition to the historical context of the treason clause. And make no mistake, any treason case is likely going to be appealed to SCOTUS.

There is a maxim. You aim too high; you miss the target.

I stand staunchly against such shenanigans as politically based treason charges.

[Vinnie From Indy]

26. I agree!

Rico, money laundering, espionage are much better avenues to bring Trump to justice.

[longship]

28. Then there's the Logan Act, but that'd be a tough pull, too.

IANAL, so I am not sure whether Logan applies here. However it has never been invoked the over 200 years that it existed.

[rzemanfl]

4. That is the legal meaning. The dictionary definition is broader, but the legal meaning is what

counts.

[sarah FAILIN]

21. Everyone says that but

I don't see it that way myself. I don't think you have to have a declaration of war to have an enemy. An enemy is anyone that tries to better themselves at your expense as one definition. Russia most definitely is our enemy. I don't think they have to fire a rocket at us to prove it.

But go ahead a charge them with RICO and treason. It may be both. I really don't think we have to pick.

[onenote]

23. Funny thing about the law.

It actually does have definitions and stuff like that.

Let me ask you this: would you have charged those who spied for the Soviet Union during the Cold War with treason? Would you have charged Jane Fonda with treason? Would you have charged the thousands (including many here on DU) who evaded the draft and/or assisted others in evading the draft and/or blocked recruitment centers etc. during the Vietnam War with treason?

[sarah FAILIN]

24. It may have "definitions and stuff like that", but

I have my opinion. Feel free to scroll past if you disagree with my opinion.

For the record, I do think Soviet spies would be guilty of treason though. Just my opinion. You are welcome to your own.

Laws change, as do definitions.

[lapucelle]

8. The treason standard is extremely difficult to meet.

Article III section 3 (US Constitution)

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The evidentiary burden is the first high hurdle, and even that would require the construction of exactly what constitutes an "overt" act.

Of course, Trump does seem like the type of coward who would try to negotiate a deal by confessing in open court.

[sarah FAILIN]

22. or..

Flynn and Page could both cut deals and testify. I don't see either of them wanting to go to jail. Honestly I bet they have evidence against the others.

[onenote]

15. Since you asked, here is how "enemy" is defined in US law.

Under title 50 of the US Code (War and National Defense): Section 2204: "the term "enemy" means any country, government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities, whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States."
The term "hostilities", is defined in title 10 (Armed Forces),Section 948a: "The term 'hostilities' means any conflict subject to the laws of war."

As a matter of international law (including the UN Charter, NATO treaty, etc), acts of war are still limited to armed conflict. Will it/should it be expanded to include cyber-attacks? Maybe one day, but that isn't the law now. There also is a domestic US law called the "Trading with the Enemies Act." Russia has never been designated an enemy for purposes of this law, not during the "Cold War" and not now.

Finally, there are other normal indicia of when a state of war exists between two countries, starting with the termination of all diplomatic relations. Countries that are at war with one another do not allow their citizens to travel and from their countries for tourism and business or to have billions of dollars in bilateral trade.

[longship]

17. Thank you.

Also, the USA and Russia are friendly enough that all of our NASA astronauts currently fly on fucking Russian rockets!!

And there's our embassies, of course.

[Orrex]

29. I don't care if he's ousted for unpaid parking tickets. Just get rid of him.

And I absolutely don't want him assassinated, because that would immediately turn him into a beloved martyr.