The United conundrum. Been there...on the other side...sorta

[trof]

I flew for Trans World Airlines for 30+ years.
They used to be a major international carrier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_World_Airlines

Many times I had to deadhead (ride as a passenger in order to get to a station where my 'working flight' would depart from).

Some of these were pre-scheduled weeks in advance as just part of my normal pattern.

Some were last minute because of disruptions in the schedule due to weather or other glitches.

Never was I in a situation where a paying passenger had to be dragged off the airplane, kicking and screaming, so I could have a seat.

I guess we were just better at logistics/scheduling than United.
Oh, and most of my career was BEFORE the use of computers!
Our crew schedulers did this all with paper and pencil and white boards.
Bless 'em.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. I worked for an airline, too, and never saw anything like the United mess.

As a non-rev passenger I never counted on actually being able to board the particular flight I wanted. But I did have the advantage of being able to check on the computer to see whether the flight was sold out, the extent to which it was oversold (usually 110% for coach), and how many people were ahead of me on the standby list. So if all the seats were sold and there were people ahead of you on the standby list, you could conclude your chances weren't good. The only thing you couldn't know for sure was how many no-shows there would be. But if everybody who bought a ticket showed up, the extra passengers would have to be accommodated (bought off); the plane would be full and there would be no room at all for the non-revs. If there were more no-shows than expected and there was an empty seat or two, the people at the head of the standby list would get seats, but if you were farther down you'd just have to wait for the next flight, or figure out a route involving a stop or two. Guy I knew made the mistake of trying to non-rev around Christmas, tried to get home from somewhere in California, got as far as MEM and discovered the only way back to MSP was via DTW and then AMS. He managed to get to Des Moines and then rented a car...

Or sometimes the passenger list looked like there were enough seats but something else would come up, like weather. One time I waited around to be called and the gate agent started asking for volunteers to give up their seats (I don't remember what they were offering as an incentive) because the plane was overweight. It wouldn't have been overweight except for the fact that the weather suddenly took a turn for the worse at the destination and they had to board more fuel in case they needed to hold or divert. So I was out of luck.

I never saw anybody involuntarily removed from an airplane. Seems like whatever they were buying people off with did the trick.

[trof]

5. Yeah, non-revving was always kind of a crap shoot. Still is.

But I did love pre-scheduled deadheads.
Start your pattern by deadheading JFK-CDG, first class seat.
Eat and drink your way across the North Atlantic.
24 hours in Paris and then start to work.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

20. I never even tried meal listing for any flight that was full unless there were several consecutive..

... flights immediately following that were wide open. The only time I would roll the dice was to try an earlier full flight in hopes of getting out early if I was starting my trip.

Going home early wasn't always so fun. Last time I was in San Francisco, I took a Sunday morning 8am flight back home to ORD because that was the only wide open flight. No fun getting to the airport at 6am when you were out boozing till 4am.

My dad was really careful too. We always left an extra day on vacations to be safe.

The only time we got caught in the switches was when I was in high school. Our whole family got stuck in Hawaii for a day during the PATCO strike. AA still had flights leaving Honolulu but a bunch of other carriers canceled flights. AA was swamped with last minute passengers and we, of course , were standby. We made it to LAX at 11pm and then got hustled off the plane like hobos to give up our seats to paying passengers.

[trof]

23. Wow, that brings back memories.

HI

[Hassin Bin Sober]

24. Hi.

Things sure were different in the old days.

We spent the night on cots in the LAX terminal. It wasn't worth getting a hotel to start listing at 7 am. We finally got out at 1pm. My dad scarfed the only first class seat and I got stuck smack dab in the middle of a DC- 10 middle bank of seats surrounded by a Japanese tour group that spent the whole flight passing food over my head and speaking Japanese.

I once got bitched out by a memeber of The Shah of Iran's royal family in the 747 sky lounge on the way home from Washington DC. I was in eighth grade. I jiggled the handle on the lav door and he came out to give me a stern lesson in the intricacies of the occupied/unoccupied sign. All in broken English.

I knew he was family because he was talking to my older sister about politic current events. Perv was probably trying to picke her up.

It couldn't have been too long before the Ayatollah took over. The students were protesting that week in DC with hoods over their heard so as not to be identified by the secret police.

[world wide wally]

2. Don't they have a few extra seats where the flight attendants sit?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Yes, but passengers are not allowed to use them.

They are not normal passenger seats and are only for the flight attendants, as they are located near exits and the FAs need to be able to get to those doors in an emergency. The forward seats are attached to the bulkhead in many airplanes and face backwards, and are hideously uncomfortable. There are additional FA seats in the back, usually near the lavs, and they are also uncomfortable. There are are also one or two jumpseats in the cockpit for extra crew, deadheading pilots, check airmen and other authorized employees, but these are also off-limits to passengers.

[world wide wally]

6. Wouldn't the employee they had to fly have qualified for one of those seats?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Probably not. Those seats are usually reserved for FAs

because the FAs are specifically trained how to operate the doors in an emergency. There are some things you have to do to arm and disarm the slides and open the doors if you aren't at a gate, and my recollection is that you couldn't ride in the FA jumpseats unless you had that training. Anyhow, the FAs staffing that flight would have needed the seats (there were 4 United employees who needed to travel, and there wouldn't have been 4 extra FA jumpseats). Everybody, including FAs, is required to be seated during takeoffs and landings.

[trof]

11. Cockpit or cabin crew would.

But the seats may have been occupied by crew.
I was a pilot, but have ridden C/A jumpseat to get somewhere.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. I had read that the 4 employees were mechanics

so if that's true they probably wouldn't have qualified. Pilots or FAs could have used them but it's doubtful there would have been enough seats anyhow.

[trof]

13. OK, THAT would be unusual.

United would already have mechanics at most (all?) of their stations.
At least that's the way it used to be.
Dispatching mechanics would indicate a problem you knew about and had already made provisions for.
It just makes no sense.

What sort of makes sense is cockpit or cabin crew needed to get a plane with 150-250 pax off the ground ASAP.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. It looks like it was a United Express flight, and it wasn't overbooked after all.

United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said Tuesday that all 70 seats on United Express Flight 3411 were filled, but the plane was not overbooked as the airline previously reported. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines, which operated the flight, selected four passengers to be removed to accommodate crew members needed in Louisville the next day. The passengers were selected based on a combination of criteria spelled out in United’s contract of carriage, including frequent-flier status, fare type, check-in time and connecting flight implications, among others, according to United.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/04/11/united-ceo-employees-followed-procedures-flier-belligerent/100317166/

So it would have been a smaller airplane, an ERJ-145. And the whole commotion wasn't the result of overbooking but about getting crew members to Louisville for a flight the next day - presumably United Express/Republic crew members, not United proper.

[trof]

17. Just an aside: I HATE RJs.

Regional Jets.
Tiny.
Claustrophobic.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. My "favorite" is the Bombardier CRJ-200.

If you're in a window seat the ceiling kind of slopes over you so you have to lean away from the window- you can't sit up straight if you're more than about 5' tall. The Embraer ERJ-190 isn't bad, though.

[Mr.Bill]

19. My dad worked for United, retired in '84.

I did a lot of non-rev flying as a kid, mostly in the 60s. Once some flight attendants let me sit in one of the jump seats to keep me from getting bumped off in Chicago. I was about ten years old. A rare exception to the rules, I suppose.

As non-revs we learned how to reduce the chances of getting bumped off. Always fly non-stop if you can, avoid major hubs for stops like O'Hare, DFW, etc. If you do have to make stops, try and do them in the middle of the night. There were five in our family and many times we split into two groups to get available seats on separate flights. It was a real adventure for a kid. After getting bumped, I have spent the night wandering around most every major airport in the country. A real wonderland when you are ten and full of energy.

[trof]

7. Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

Depending on the airplane and number of pax, all the c/a jumpseats might be taken with crew.

[KT2000]

3. I think you experienced

the pre-Jack Welch ethos that has taken over businesses now. It is now only about money and sticking someone else with the costs. People are costs whether they are employees or customers when things don't go right.

[trof]

9. Yep, and we have short memories.

Plus, if United is going where you want to go, when you want to go, at a cheaper price than competitors...guess what?

[Voltaire2]

10. Once they had boarded the plane it was too late

to use that full flight for crew transfers. Seems pretty simple to me.

[calimary]

25. Welcome to DU, Voltaire2!

All they had to do was offer more than $800 plus hotel. They'd have had plenty of takers at $1500 or $2K. I bet they now wish they'd had to pay that amount instead of what this disastrous incident will end up costing them.

[Voltaire2]

26. Thanks, and sure they could have found a price.

[moondust]

15. Corporate arrogance and thuggery.

"Too big to fail/too big to jail" implies they can get away with anything--and they know it. It wasn't always like that.

[AgadorSparticus]

21. That is what I think too. The employees of UA are assholes

And the company supports this bullshit. Will never fly with them again.

[Purrfessor]

16. I wonder if you knew Richard (Dick) Fenimore...

He was also a TWA pilot for 30+ years. He was Captain on 747s in his later years with the company. I know it was a large company but I thought maybe you crossed paths with Dick during your career.

[kimbutgar]

22. I always flight standby on United and will not list on any flight that has fewer than 20 seats

Available. I have been taken off a flight and made to sit for hours and sometimes overnight to get on the next one.

But taking a pay passenger off in this matter was a big boo boo
for the gate agent. Someone will be losing their job over this or disaster.


That said it took the story line off chump and Russia which is not a good thing in my opinion.

[3catwoman3]

27. We once spent 3 days in the Frankfurt airport, trying to get...

...back to the US on standby. The flights were so oversold that in those 3 days, only 5 standbys got on.

It was a very long 3 days.

My husband flew for United for 15 years, after a 21 yr Air Force career. He reached mandatory retirement age during their bankruptcy, and got totally screwed financially.

I promise averyone reading here that he would never have been an asshole to anyone.