Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

babylonsister

(171,062 posts)
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:10 PM May 2017

WaPo: When is it okay to say the president might be nuts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/05/02/when-is-it-okay-to-say-the-president-might-be-nuts/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.53a07d3aa60e

When is it okay to say the president might be nuts?
By Jennifer Rubin May 2 at 9:00 AM

snip//

Is Trump nuts, ill-informed or a liar — or all three?

Until now, people who could have shed light on a president’s mental state were professionally hindered from doing so. The so-called Goldwater Rule — named for the late Sen. Barry Goldwater, whom some psychiatrists took to calling crazy because of his foreign policy views — admonishes medical professionals not to opine on the mental health of people whom they had not examined. In the context of Trump, however, there has been some buzz about doing away with the rule on the grounds that psychiatrists should be able to give their best medical judgment to “warn” the public.

Evan Osnos in the New Yorker waded into that debate in a piece questioning whether Trump might be removed under the 25th Amendment:

Lance Dodes, a retired assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, believes that, in this instance, the Goldwater rule is outweighed by another ethical commitment: a “duty to warn” others when he assesses that a person might harm them. Dodes told me, “Trump is going to face challenges from people who are not going to bend to his will. If you have a President who takes it as a personal attack on him, which he does, and flies into a paranoid rage, that’s how you start a war.”

Like many of his colleagues, Dodes speculates that Trump fits the description of someone with malignant narcissism, which is characterized by grandiosity, a need for admiration, sadism, and a tendency toward unrealistic fantasies. On February 13th, in a letter to the (New York) Times, Dodes and thirty-four other mental-health professionals wrote, “We fear that too much is at stake to be silent any longer.” In response, Allen Frances, a professor emeritus at Duke University Medical College, who wrote the section on narcissistic personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders—IV, sought to discourage the public diagnoses. Frances wrote, “He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn’t make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder. . . . The antidote to a dystopic Trumpean dark age is political, not psychological.”


Well, as the letter to the New York Times illustrates, mental health professionals can challenge or defy the Goldwater Rule. It’s up to medical associations to enforce professional ethics. We are going to hear a lot more from such people, I suspect, as Trump displays his temperament in high-pressure situations.

There are myriad problems with diagnoses by doctors not treating a patient. We saw during the campaign how unfounded speculation about Hillary Clinton’s health got out of hand. Supporters and critics of an incumbent president (not to mention psychiatrists) are unlikely to agree. And in any event, it is not clear that a finding that “the president is suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder” can be used to invoke the 25th Amendment.

There are, however, a few points on which many Americans can agree. First, there is a fundamental difference between calling someone “crazy” because of his views, for example, on the Vietnam War and questioning someone’s mental stability based on his behavior, speech and other observable factors. Second, Congress could try to pass a law requiring an annual physical and mental checkup for the commander in chief, although it would have to get past a likely veto. Congress would also need to figure out how to enforce such a requirement and tackle the issue of doctor-patient confidentiality. All of that seems a bit much to overcome. Third, in an era when anyone has access to social media, we are going to see professional and unprofessional voices eager to assess a president whose behavior seems out of the ordinary.

From our vantage point, the issue, we think, is not about getting a medical diagnosis. Assessing the president’s mental, temperamental and physical fitness is what voters do. They judge for themselves based on all the evidence they wish to consider (they can look up the DSM-5 for themselves). It’s perfectly valid for them to look at Trump’s short attention span as well as his lack of coherence, self-control, rationality, steadiness and ability to process information. In 2016, enough voters thought he passed muster. However, in 2020, they will have to make that judgment all over again unless Trump chooses not to run. This time they will have witnessed how he functions, listened to him speak and observed how he makes decisions. They may well conclude that he’s too erratic, self-absorbed, dishonest, confused and ignorant to be president. They won’t need a doctor to tell them that.
22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
WaPo: When is it okay to say the president might be nuts? (Original Post) babylonsister May 2017 OP
Published in a major newspaper? underpants May 2017 #1
The election was tilted in favor of trump by russian agents BSdetect May 2017 #19
...and she's one of the CONSERVATIVE columnists... brooklynite May 2017 #2
Jennifer Rubin, still doing penance gratuitous May 2017 #14
About 102 days ago. nolabear May 2017 #3
Yeah, but what about Clinton's emails? Orrex May 2017 #4
Oh those were much worse Proud Liberal Dem May 2017 #8
Can hardly wait for any minor health issue to put Trumpo in the hands of his OFFICIAL TeamPooka May 2017 #5
Would this be the same dept of Drs Runningdawg May 2017 #17
It's OK C_U_L8R May 2017 #6
But what happens in the meantime? nt marybourg May 2017 #7
he is narcissistic, entitled, spoiled trash that has likely gone insane. NRaleighLiberal May 2017 #9
It should have been--and was (repeatedly)--said during the election. frazzled May 2017 #10
Right about noon on 1/20/17. Bleacher Creature May 2017 #11
He will shortly get so bad that it can't be ignored. If he would shut-up, his insanity could be patricia92243 May 2017 #12
And after he has started a war, I am sure these professionals will make some sort of an apology to world wide wally May 2017 #13
hey jennifer, it's okay NOW. spanone May 2017 #15
It's not just okay; it's necessary hamsterjill May 2017 #16
We said it during the primaries malaise May 2017 #18
If the WaPo had said it a little sooner charlyvi May 2017 #20
Trump is mentally ill and this should be discussed Gothmog May 2017 #21
On days ending in a -y? Retrograde May 2017 #22

BSdetect

(8,998 posts)
19. The election was tilted in favor of trump by russian agents
Tue May 2, 2017, 05:47 PM
May 2017

There was no victory - lost by 3 million votes.

He was and is unfit to govern.

He is also guilty of treason.

I would suggest he believes he can betray his county to win as he can avoid / suppress / ignore the consequences. Narcissism.

He thinks the law cannot reach him.

Look at his attacks on various judges.





gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
14. Jennifer Rubin, still doing penance
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:51 PM
May 2017

Her horrible journalism is partly responsible for this nincompoop being our president. You have much to atone for, Ms. Rubin.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,412 posts)
8. Oh those were much worse
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:28 PM
May 2017

Who cares if we have a crazy loon as POTUS whose campaign may very well have colluded with a foreign government to influence an election in a way that favored them? At least, Trump didn't own and operate a private e-mail server while serving as a government official.


It literally KILLS me that, not only was what we are seeing now of Trump was OBVIOUS to most Americans (3 million more Americans than those whom voted for Trump) but despite of that (or maybe even because of it), just enough Americans had absolutely no problems pulling the lever for him, even some people whom had to have known better.

TeamPooka

(24,223 posts)
5. Can hardly wait for any minor health issue to put Trumpo in the hands of his OFFICIAL
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:21 PM
May 2017

Presidential (Navy I believe) doctors at the White House and Walter Reed.
Give him a full work up then.

C_U_L8R

(45,002 posts)
6. It's OK
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:21 PM
May 2017

I mean, it's not OK
But it's very appropriate when someone as batshit as the self-absorbed one stains the Oval Office carpet.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
10. It should have been--and was (repeatedly)--said during the election.
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:38 PM
May 2017

How many times did you see a Clinton ad or one of her advocates (Obama, Biden, a myriad of others) say "Donald Trump is temperamentally unfit to be president"? About a thousand or more? They weren't talking about policy positions being crazy: they were saying the man is temperamentally unbalanced. And that he was dangerous because of this.

Look, Trump's behavior today is no different than it was during the campaign--or, indeed, what it has been for decades. He would say crazy stuff like my building is 68 stories high when it was objectively verifiable that it is only 58 stories high. He acted unhinged during the debates ("nasty woman&quot . His knowledge was non-existent but his wacky bluster off the charts high.

Was it the hope that the presidency would change him (which it hasn't) that has brought his craziness up all of a sudden? By now, everyone should understand that it will never change; and it's not something new. Only now he has his finger on the nuclear code.

Thanks, all of you who stayed home or voted for someone else.

world wide wally

(21,742 posts)
13. And after he has started a war, I am sure these professionals will make some sort of an apology to
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:48 PM
May 2017

the living. But who is going to apologize to those that don't live through it for letting a mentally incompetent man make our decisions over war and peace?

hamsterjill

(15,220 posts)
16. It's not just okay; it's necessary
Tue May 2, 2017, 03:53 PM
May 2017

Our very lives may (seriously) depend upon it!

The man is obviously not playing with a full deck. Whether that is sheer arrogance and stupidity, or whether that is a legitimate health issue - I do not know. But something isn't right with him and that is very obvious.

charlyvi

(6,537 posts)
20. If the WaPo had said it a little sooner
Tue May 2, 2017, 06:16 PM
May 2017

we wouldn't be in this pickle. The evidence was plentiful as far back as his Trump Tower escalator ride ion 6-17-15.

Retrograde

(10,136 posts)
22. On days ending in a -y?
Wed May 3, 2017, 02:03 AM
May 2017

His behavior is getting more erratic and confused by the day.

The best that can be said of Donald now is that he's totally unqualified, out of his depth, and actively undermining the rest of the government with his foreign "policy" stunts.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»WaPo: When is it okay to...