Here is the problem if Trump were to resign.

[Eliot Rosewater]

He would get sympathy, he would be pardoned, he would never face justice for being a major international money laundering criminal.

Pence would then get busy destroying America. For the benefit of the usual bunch and nobody else.

Pence would get much more support for the same terrible things he would do than Trump got, like taking healthcare from many million currently insured citizens.

Ryan and he would go on a spree of destruction and take our Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and more.

Voting rights would be all but gone as would gay rights, women's rights.

No, I say let him be impeached and then indicted. Let it be clear Pence lied, was part of the whole thing as was McConnell and Chaffetz and others.

[Zoonart]

1. Not quite.

Supposedly there are state grand juries at work. One is in New York State and the President cannot pardon himself from anything that comes out of a State GJ.
Pence and Ryan are possibly compromised. If not, after the disgrace of removal of 45 they would be the lamest of lame ducks. Perhaps they would be so lame as to not be able to ram through another conservative justice.

To be clear- if 45, or Pence or Ryan for that matter, gets another SCOTUS appointment, we are pretty much screwed on a myriad of issues no matter what happens in subsequent elections. I think this is why the GOP is still all in.

[Eliot Rosewater]

8. He doesnt have to pardon himself, Pence will pardon him for all fed and state issues

unless someone here says that isnt the case, any lawyers?

[Qutzupalotl]

25. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. Correct, per the google machine. So if the charges are in a state where the GOVERNOR

is a con, they pardon him.

[jmowreader]

32. The state where the charges would be has a Democratic governor

It also has a Democratic attorney general who's already working on taking Trump down.

[Eliot Rosewater]

34. NY? I thought NJ for some reason, but yeah, would be NY.

[pnwmom]

37. But we have Democratic governors and attorneys-general in both NY and California,

two of the states where DT does business. And we know that Schneiderman has been investigating him.

If DT's convicted of something in NY related to his real estate or casinos, no Republican can pardon him there.

[Ohioblue22]

42. he'll pull a gerry ford

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

2. So sorry that I cannot comment....

Although I 100% agree.

What I have to say would get me, probably life in our awesome prison system.

[mikeysnot]

3. no

the impeachment would be the sideshow while pence and co destroy what is left that has not already been destroyed. Let trump take what little blame will be publicized..

I want to hang this flaming turd tire of trump hung around the neck of the conservative and republican movements.

For ever.

The R's would never impeach another R, no matter how inept he appears or incompetent he becomes. They are carrying out their agenda and letting him be the fall guy.

[BannonsLiver]

4. None of that worked out too well for Gerald Ford

[progressoid]

50. We had the advantage of a Democratic controlled congress in 74

[sarge43]

51. Ford may have been a dup; he wasn't a psychopath hell bent on destroying this country. n/t

[Vinca]

5. We're in a lose lose situation and I don't know how we get out of it.

Trump deserves to be impeached and then prosecuted for anything criminal he's ever done, but then we get Pence. As long as Trump is still in office he will keep fucking up on a daily basis so none of their agenda will get done. Maybe the best way to stall until the midterm election is to keep his ugly orange behind in office.

[Dream Girl]

6. It's going to be bad either way, but the best thing at this point is for this to drag on....

The longer it takes, the more destruction to the GOP. Let them squirm and twist themselves in knots trying to protect him. Leave no doubt at the end of this what cowards they are and what they really care about. If Pence comes in now, he would be greeted as the voice of reason. Some people will be so relieved. The country will "fall in love" with him. He will be viewed as presidential and someone who will "bring back the dignity of the office", meanwhile he would just continue Trump and the GOPs path of destruction. Yes, as much as I hate to say it, I think long term, the best outcome would be to see Trump twist and continue to f-things up, long enough for the seeds of destruction of the GOP to take root.

[crazycatlady]

7. Pence won't be a knight in shining armor

The Resistance is already onto him. One of the best chants at the NYC Women's March was "Build a fence around Mike Pence."

Everyone there seemed to know that he's a homophobic nutjob who wants to see women's rights go back to the 50s. 1850s not 1950s.

[Eliot Rosewater]

9. You know that, I know that, but I promise you the media does also but WONT

ever say it or act that way.


He will be the VOICE OF REASON according to all media.



I mean for god's sake look at how they normalized Trump until he became so irrational they couldn't any longer.

[crazycatlady]

10. This is where I LOVE being a cord cutter

I haven't watched TV news in 3 years. I don't miss it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

11. Let me tell you a story. I have a relative, educated, wonderful and fantastic

person, his wife equally so as are the kids.

Very reasonable person, voted for Obama twice and Hillary.

Watches Fox news.

He didnt know about most of this, because Fox didnt tell him.

Scared yet?

[InformedElitist]

16. very smart (n/t)

[Dream Girl]

30. You must be so proud. Problem is the vast majority of people get their information via the

electronic media.

[crazycatlady]

43. That is a rather rude and condescending post

I'm a generation younger than most of this forum. Among my group of friends, nobody has cable TV. We have services like Netflix and Amazon Prime for a fraction of the price. 30% of millennials are cord-cutters.

We get our news via apps and social media. CNN, Buzzfeed, Roll Call and Huffington Post will send headlines straight to your phone as alerts (I'm sure others do too, but these are the ones I use myself). This is a lot less headache inducing than watching talking heads shout over each other on cable news.

[Dream Girl]

49. No I'm not a dinosaur...have subscribed to Netflix, Amazon Prime for many years now

for entertainment. I get alerts from WP, Vox, etc. Have relied on social media sites you mentioned and many others for probably the past decade. But I also watch the network and cable shows to see what the reactions are from the mainstream...inside the beltway and beyond. And I make it a point to talk to people I consider less informed to see what is filtering through. All in all I'm probably better informed than folks who've "cut the cord" because of it. I don't rely on one source. If you curate too much you can miss the whole picture. I'm sorry if I came off as condescending, but I always find it annoying when people smugly say "I don't watch TV" at every opportunity. It has that whiff of superiority. Kind of like, "I'm vegan", a vague put down off those who do...

[crazycatlady]

53. I very rarely mention that I don't watch TV

And honestly my reason is financial. I save $100 a month by not having cable. I get my news from 3-4 different sources (including a cable network via alerts on my phone).

However, I think the point I'm trying to drive across is that the majority of Americans (especially those born after the Boomers) aren't watching cable news all day (or night). CNN, Fox, MSNBC aren't only competing with each other, they're also competing with Real Housewives of Wherever, sports, the Kardashians, and any anything else on the 150+ channels in their cable package. OF my family members (immediate and extended) who have cable, nobody watches cable news. My parents watch the 'geriatric news' (their term, confirmed by the large number of drug ads during the broadcast) at 6:30 on network TV and that's it for news.

[Eliot Rosewater]

61. You are young? 20's? Do your friends see now if they didnt before

that ANY 3rd party vote is a vote for the cons?

Or not voting, of course.

I am curious because my fear is Bernie created a "standard" for young progressives that a candidate they vote for has to agree on certain issues otherwise they wont vote for that person.

Talk me down please from my fear that what happened last year could happen again. (this is a sincere post, and sincere question)

[crazycatlady]

62. I'm 37

One of my friends did vote for Gary Johnson this year but she's a Republican would wouldn't vote for (any) Clinton if a winning Powerball ticket was dangled in front of her. (She's very progressive on all the issues, but grew up with parents brainwashed by Fox. I choose not to discuss politics with her because she's a good friend otherwise). She was Team Rubio in the primaries, but the GOP wrapped it up before NJ voted.

Of the registered Democrats in my circle, all of us voted for Hillary in the primary. I was the last to make up my mind about it (we had one of the last primaries in the nation and I incorrectly assumed we would not matter).

I worked as a canvass director on the opposite coast. I had a Bernie or Bust person as as a canvasser. I talked him into voting for Hillary. This man is 63. I had one canvasser debate between Johnson and Stein and ultimately didn't vote (age 21).

[Eliot Rosewater]

64. Thank you, and i didnt mean to imply you were young or if so had done anything wrong.

Sounds like you really know your shit, good!

I have run into several first time or 2nd time voters who were really turned on, as we used to say, by Bernie, but wrongly believe if a candidate doesnt check ALL the boxes, they cant vote for them.

Like Hillary was for $12 an hour not $15, etc. And they then did not vote for her, which was a big part of the problem.

Thanks again! (Sounds like you educated someone much older than you, fantastic!)

[crazycatlady]

66. I know one of those Bernie types

However, she's not eligible to vote until next year (she's getting a voter reg form from me for her birthday). This is one of my youngest cousins. She's jealous that I went to a Women's March and of all my political activity. She happily rocks a pussyhat I made her.

My next step with her is discussing the importance of midterms (her 1st election).

I was actually just talked into voting for someone in the primary by my mom. She's never done anything like that before (never paid much attention to politics) and then she like what a NJ gov candidate had to say on NPR and told me to vote for him. I did (truth be told, any of the 4 are better than the man he'll replace).

[Va Lefty]

13. Yep, if by some miracle, we get rid of Comrade casino

The media will pat itself on the back and talk about how they saved Democracy while refusing to reflect on their complicity in creating this train wreck

[Doreen]

29. Hmm, good thing I only watch Rachel and O'Donnell.

They must be the only ones who do say it. Those two never back down from the truth.

[brush]

20. I'm thinking drag it out too, but only to 2018 and hopefully we take back the House, then impeach.

If we have the house no bills can be initiated without Dem approval.

[sprinkleeninow]

24. My 25 cents (accounting for inflation).

I got a feeling that what you're saying is unfortunately and scraping nails on blackboard how it may very well play out. Unless there's a 'meltdown' and 'total unhinging' that noone brought on except the person in question, due to the myriad of personality traits.

I gotta feeling that it's gonna play out the way it's meant to.

A daily battle. When destruction comes in like a flood, Democracy/Truth/Justice/Integrity will raise up a standard against it.

I will not abandon hope.

[n2doc]

12. Gotta start somewhere n/t

[Orsino]

14. He's not going to hang around waiting for impeachment.

His impotent rage is already getting the best of him. He won't want to be a complete lame duck.

[Eliot Rosewater]

15. As a mentally ill narcissist he may not believe there is any legitimate reason to impeach him or

indict him.

And, if he does worry he assumes he has more control over the situation in the WH instead of Trump Tower (as prez)


What I never want to forget is no matter how much damage he does, 40% of America supports him.

[Orsino]

18. That's why he'll cry "rigged!" as he resigns.

The validity of the charges won't matter. He's staying only so he can be a big shot, and if his Administration is paralyzed by impeachment, he wouldn't even have that.

[LiberalLovinLug]

58. I agree, he's not going to voluntarily resign

Its not even in his history to resign a fight. He has used the courts to fight every person or company that comes at him. He encouraged Bill O'Reilly to not stop fighting his accusers.

I think you are right. He is mentally ill and thinks he is always right about everything. He will fight just because of his own twisted bizzaro "principles", even if he ends up losing.

Now, if he does fight a losing impeachment trial, I can see him grandstanding a day before the verdict is announced, if all indicators are that he has lost, and have a big rally with Trumpsters where he announces that he is voluntarily resigning because Washington is corrupt etc.. and there is nothing he can do there anymore.

[titaniumsalute]

17. Agreed that it doesn't solve the longer term problem of the Nazis running the ship

[tazkcmo]

19. Mostly agree

I agree with you about all but this one thing:

1. Shit Gibbon escapes justice

Justice comes in many forms including becoming a pariah in your country. While he will always have supporters but it's that 20% of America that has to wear Velcro laced shoes and if you unfollowed him on Twitter, you'd never hear from him again. Also, all politicians must be careful in regards to how much support they show for him as he's already toxic and will become more so as he continues to step in self created piles of poo.

It is ideal for him to be impeached and every other dirty GOPee-er to go down with him, especially Pence for the reasons you listed while at the same time, having Shit Gibbon gone greatly reduces our risk for starting WWIII with conventional weapons or a nuclear holocaust. Yay.

[Eliot Rosewater]

21. I am still marveling at our situation; a person who had to pay off a $25 million fraud lawsuit WHILE

president, mocked disabled people, bragged about sexually attacking women, still has so much support that we even have to discuss this.


The deplorables, the racists, when they had to look at a black man in the White House, it destroyed what little decency and sense they had.

To the extent that they still support someone that is not supportable, by any human being.

[tazkcmo]

23. I know, me too.

I see Shit Gibbon on TV and the word "President" and just cry.

[InformedElitist]

22. I think we're screwed no matter what.

As horrible as Pence or any other Republican would be...and I do mean horrible, I just can't see him starting a nuclear war with god-knows-which-country out of a Tweet, spite, rage, constipation, or whatever...That still is my biggest fear - literal survival.

After Trump is gone, then we have to worry about the survival of a reasonably decent republic. I wish I could say I were more optimistic about that.

We see what the media is about - a short news cycle pushing controversy for ratings. Remember when Trump read his whole speech to Congress w/o using the "n" word and they all applauded? They'll be the same ones saying how stable the grandfatherly Pence is. And if this past election has taught me anything is that people have very short memories. Badly fails 3 debates and "grab 'em by the pussy" still gets 62M votes a few weeks later. And I remembered last night that Ford only barely lost in '76 only a couple of years after pardoning Nixon.

My go-to political fantasy is the Dems take the House in early '19 and Trump and Pence are both on the verge of conviction. But the last week has shown that this is finally unraveling at a faster rate with the '18 elections still seeming a long way off.

[malchickiwick]

27. Pence/GOP would have no political capital to do a DAMN thing

Look, the thugs can't even legislate now and they own two and five-ninths of the branches of power. A SCROTUS-ectomy would make their situation far far worse, with mid-terms right around the corner. Meanwhile, after Dems take over the House in 2018 <knock on wood> we can block anything and everything short of a SCOTUS nominee. I ain't too afraid of Pence.

[Eliot Rosewater]

31. All they have to do is pass a tax bill that defunds Obamacare and everything else

demoralize the country and put us all into chaotic distress.

I think we are going to have World War 3 first though, I think Putin is close to making his move.

May not be militarily or nuclear but bad shit is going down as we speak.

[malchickiwick]

35. They can't get anything done now; it would be harder for them after any SCROTUS-ectomy

Does Pence strike you as somebody who could whip votes? I sure don't think so.

[Eliot Rosewater]

40. Pence will be shown as the reasonable and decent one. He is neither, as we know

but the media will portray him as such and all they have to do is write bills that take away the name Obamacare, take away some benefits, not kill too many of us, and they are on their way to everything else they want, total destruction of everything we have worked our entire lives for.

[book_worm]

28. Frankly I want Trump in office thru 2018 at least

I think his constant gaffes will make it impossible for him to pass anything. While Pence is just as bad or even worse than Trump on policy he is also pretty slick and media savvy--I really don't want him as president.

[BigmanPigman]

33. My mom told me that Ford didn't win since people never forgave him for pardoning Nixon.

I don't know if society is smart enough for that to apply now since people have a different mentality.

[Eliot Rosewater]

36. She is right about then, but now those kind of people are all but gone.

About 45% of America cannot ever vote in their best interests because to do so would be to vote for someone who is not, like them, a raging racist asshole.

[Demsrule86]

38. He won't be impeached...he will be allowed to resign...and he has to go

one way or the other.

[Mme. Defarge]

60. Agreed, he has to go.

What's happening now is completely unsustainable and extremely fraught with peril - no less than the survival of our republic is at risk. Why gamble on the very questionable possibility the it can survive until the 2019?

Remember this?
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-trailguide-updates-not-rigged-any-more-trump-suggests-1477606612-htmlstory.html

[pnwmom]

39. Do you think all the swing voters who decided to take a chance on DT will be happy with Pence

as a replacement? I don't.

Pence will have even less support than DT, once people learn about his record in Indiana.

[Eliot Rosewater]

41. I hope you are right, but so far the "right" in this country has proven to me

they cant be counted on for anything decent.

The "middle" that you talk about, not sure.

But would LOVE for you to be right and for me to be wrong.

[elmac]

44. We would still be stuck with a 100% fascist government

nothing will change, the evil will just be more hush hush.

[NRaleighLiberal]

45. yup - the choice is abysmal or cataclysmic. Times a zillion.

[oberliner]

46. He will never resign

Zero chance.

[LanternWaste]

47. I see no real evidence supporting claims of sympathy

I see no real objective evidence supporting allegations of sympathy towards Trump's potential abdication nor the easy passage of the GOP platform en toto.

Though I'm happy to see him stay in place through the mid-terms, I believe his abdication would simply validate the negative commercial branding his administration has earned, and Pence/Ryan would have so little capital left to do anything other than bail out the water as the boat continues to flounder for the next two years.

This administration, regardless of who may or may not lead it this summer, is already tainted beyond rehabilitation.

[LOL Lib]

48. Trump will never resign.

Have we learned nothing from his narcissistic behavior over the last 2 years? Stop believing this Trump resignation bullshit. It is a distraction at least and probably intended to cause people to ease up on resistance.

[cheyanne]

55. Pence will be impeached with Trump.

At the federal level, Article II of the United States Constitution states in Section 4 that "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors."

So Pence should be impeached along with Trump. I don't know what the phrase "civil officers" covers. I would think that it would apply to many in the Executive branch.

[LOL Lib]

57. Yes!

It is the only way! Unless the KFC and Ice cream get him first. I have thought a lot about it and I prefer the public humiliation of impeachment. Death is too easy an out for Turnip.

[Initech]

52. The billionaires are the ones who should be indicted.

I have no doubt that the Kochs, Mercers, DeVos, and Princes are the ones who engineered this coup. People like Bannon and Kushner are expendable, the GOP will get rid of them when they become too much of a liability. But Prince is the real criminal mastermind behind the coup, he's the one who should go down with the rest of the criminals.

[marlakay]

54. While we are all thinking surely this wakes republicans up

And we will get house back, i just spent weekend with daughter, her boyfriend is from republican family.

So only time I mentioned Trump her response was, he's not as bad as news says, they just make stuff up on left and right for ratings.

I told her she was spending too much time with republicans, her boss and most of the other managers at work are also. She voted for Hillary but I can tell after time with boyfriend getting influenced.

They did a great job on fake news, now a lot of people don't trust any of it.

How can we change minds for next election if they don't believe us? Our facts?

[PufPuf23]

56. You have described well the danger of taking out Trump without taking out the top ring of GOP

mis-leadership.

The level directly below Trump is a danger because they are more capable and more ideologue.

Nasty situation.

[Honeycombe8]

59. Good points. But he won't resign. That kind of person never gives up. He'll lie to the end. nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

63. There isn't any real good solution here

No matter who we get rid of or when we got rid of them, we won't be able to get a better person in the WH until 2020. We're stuck with a clown car at least until then- but we need to make sure that, if nothing else, we have a completely or partly Democratic Congress starting in 2019 so that their legislative agenda is stopped dead in its tracks and real investigations can be done.

[Eliot Rosewater]

65. The beauty of putting Putin spies on election boards to flip votes.