Hillary Clinton is right about Bernie Sanders

[William769]

(CNN)There are few things more unpleasant than relitigating the 2016 Democratic primary. But more than a year later, it hasn't stopped, partly because the race touched on so many hot spots that continue to animate our politics: the way gender shapes how we perceive power, how class struggle collides with racial entitlement, what it even means to be "progressive" or to work outside the system.

And now, there's something new to argue over: Hillary Clinton's forthcoming book, "What Happened."

In it, according to excerpts posted by a group of Clinton supporters, she criticizes her primary opponent, Bernie Sanders, for running to be the Democratic nominee while not actually being a Democrat, and for targeting her in a campaign of character assassination, instead of doing a deep dive into policy.


Predictably, the response from the Sanders left and the Trump right has been about the same: Shut up and go away. This is after the demands that she "take responsibility" and "apologize." (Has any politician in the history of America been ordered to say she's sorry as often as Hillary Clinton?)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/05/opinions/hillary-clinton-book-bernie-sanders-filipovic/index.html

A side note

I am so sick and tired of people telling me to shut up about third party voters (this also includes the "other" voters.

We are not the one's that need to shut up we are the one's that need to be screaming from the rooftops!

I'll leave you to chew on this, third way voters are to blame for the Iraq war (who Gave us W?) Third way voters are to blame for DACA being recinded, North Korea. Who gave us the last fucking 10 months of trump? We all know the answers to these questions.

Fuck third way voters, they are the same class as trump supporters. NOW CHEW ON THAT!

P.S. I may not post here much anymore but I do read a lot and when I see shit about giving cover to third way voters, you can bet your ass I'm going to say something.

[applegrove]

1. Third party voters and the third way are not the same thing.

[William769]

3. To me they are. nt

[applegrove]

6. I'm trying to help. The third way was democratics attempt to put forth

a third way between progressives and neocons. I think. Third party voters could be anywhere on the spectrum. They just vote for a candidate from neither Democrat or Republican parties. Just an fyi.

[William769]

7. I understand that.

I guess I'm saying I have a gripe with anybody that's not a Democrat. I know, I can be selfish.

[applegrove]

8. Hillary was an advocate of the third way back when it was a thing.

[AllyCat]

17. Exactly. This is exactly why I opposed her in the primary.

[zentrum]

20. Yup.

We remember the DLC too.

I'll say it again---Bernie has an 80% approval rating among registered Democrats. Though we all voted for her in the General and helped others get to the polls.

Wish she hadn't done this. What is the purpose?

Is there anything in the book that discusses in depth what she feels she learned? About herself? The country? The needs of voters?

[chwaliszewski]

29. Well stated.

[delisen]

51. I approve of Susan Collins but am not voting for her.

I approve of B. Sanders but I am not going to voter for him.

Approval ratings and likeability or popularity ratings are often based more on name recognition plus they often don't mean that those surveyed approve of that person's policies.

Many people I know who were passionate about B. Sanders voted for Jill Stein in the general.

Many people I know who would never vote for Clinton because she "voted for the Iraq War Resolution are happy to support John Kerry or Joseph Biden - both of whom voted for the Iraq War Resolution.

Many people I know who would not vote for Clinton because as a non-elected citizen he backed a crime bill, are happy to support Sanders-who voted for the crime bill, and happy to support Biden-who wrote the crime bill.

We don't know what is in the rest of the book. Guess we have to be patient and wait until it is released.

[George II]

91. I'd bet that more than 80% of Americans approve of Taylor Swift but wouldn't vote for her for Pres.

[zentrum]

97. The point is

.....that less Democrats "approve" of HRC than of Bernie.

This is important to understand in terms of preparing ourselves for 2018.

You want to see it as no more important than a Taylor Swift popularity vote---but we lost massively in 2016 and need some seriously re-examined understanding of what really happened.

Not what happened for HRC personally. That's over. But what happened to the Party nationwide. Isn't the health of the Party bigger and more important that Hillary?

The poll that approves of him is, I suspect, not about his winning smile--it's about his authenticity and his policies. The fact that he says he's going to fight for Medicare in a national campaign. He didn't go off and lick his wounds. He kept right on fighting and being Bernie. People see that and respect it.

[brush]

128. Get real. If your first sentence was true he wouldn't have gotten beaten by Clinton by 4m votes.

[delisen]

114. You have got a point.

[Ken Burch]

135. Are the other 20% Katy Perry fans?

n/t.

[wasupaloopa]

78. She doesn't need "splaining to" by Bernie supporters.

Some people will never understand Hillary and will never stop telling her how she should act.

[LiberalFighter]

117. If Sanders had 80% approval then why didn't it translate to votes?

[delisen]

53. Union members voted Reagan. Do you oppose unions?

Political circumstances change over time.

In the 1980s Reagan destroyed the Air Traffic Controllers Union. He would not have had that opportunity if so many Democratic rank and file union members, along with young people, had not invested in the so-called Reagan Revolution and voted Republican.

Carter and his human rights agenda had been rejected , Reagan selfishness was in

The American public did not rise up to protect unions and other unions had to decide whether to be aggressive against Reaganism or change tactics to survive.

I have always seen the so called third Way as a similar attempt to keep liberal values alive when the general public has made a hard right turn, as they did in the 1990s when Newt Gingrich's Contract with America tore congress away from Democratic control.

[zentrum]

95. My dad was a union organizer.

Whole family sees the Third Way as part of what damaged unions because it made forces within the leadership not have to have a clear progressive stance that demanded candidates stand for workers, a raised minimum wage etc.

It's too complicated to go into here but Third Way is no friend of the rank and file.

That said, glad we're both for unions and differ only on tactics, not goals.

[AllyCat]

102. Clinton was not particularly pro-union or pro-worker until she needed to be

Nonetheless, this UNION MEMBER voted for her after vociferously decrying my union's decision to support her over the candidate I felt would support unions and workers MORE than her.

Jerking ourselves to the right has not kept us alive. It has almost killed us.

[delisen]

106. I, as a worker and union member have found

Clinton very supportive of workers.

I do not consider Clinton to the right of, for example, Sen. Sanders. I do consider her much more knowledgeable.

[Demsrule86]

58. That is in the past today ...third way voters mean the Steins and other third party voters...and

they destroy progressive policy by attacking Democrats and electing Republicans. They smugly announce that the country is now ready for progressive candidates who believe in all encompassing economic message without 'identity politics' when in reality the country is center left at best. And I would just like to point out that when Bill Clinton was elected there was no other way of getting elected. He saved us from another GOP presidential term and a packed Supreme Court until the third party fools gave us trump and the likelihood of a packed court. And of course the the third party fools also gave us Bush by opining that the parties were the same. They are not Bush presided over 9-11, caused two wars,an economic meltdown, gave us United and killed millions in the end. I am out of patience with Greens, the Russian princess who is Stein,Our Revolution and now Move On as well...all they do is elect Republicans.

[applegrove]

111. I Don't like third party candidates either.

[AllyCat]

14. Right on!

[jrthin]

2. You may get attacked. But I agree with you +1000. nt

[William769]

4. Wouldn't be the first time.

[clu]

5. unique content definitely warrants it's own thread

nt

[Me.]

9. You Don't Have To Shut Up

[sheshe2]

10. Yes!

OT I missed you. Please stay safe in Florida...I was thinking about you today.

[William769]

123. Thanks & sorry for responding so late.

I've been dealing with well you know.

[sheshe2]

124. Love you.

Please stay safe.

[William769]

125. Love you too.

Just posted a OP on where I'm at & Irma.

[George II]

11. Excellent points, right on the mark. Thank you sir. (and great to see you!!)

[aikoaiko]

12. The problem with blaming Bernie for even running is that HRC is really blaming the voters...

...who voted for him and supported his message. I don't think she'll ever understand that.

Regarding your side note: If it is true that third party voters gave us Trump, that's all the more reason to welcome back to DU and other places that support Democratic candidates.

[Gore1FL]

23. In all sincerity, I wish you good luck in getting that point across.

I've been preaching that logic for months.

Before the election I was constantly told something along the lines of "screw 'em. We got this."

After the election, the story has changed to "There are not and cannot ever be our allies and therefore have no place at the table, but it's there fault because we need their vote."

The logical disconnect is truly and tragically amazing.

[chwaliszewski]

30. Exactly!

+1

[BainsBane]

45. There is no problem with their participating here

Last edited Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:09 AM - Edit history (1)

If they support Democrats. It's when they work to undermine the party and spread Kremlin and fascist swill that they cross the line.

The fact is a lot of those people continue to defend Trump, including his Muslim ban and immigration raids. They even defend the Tiki torch Nazis. People wanted Feinstein's job for saying Trump could change, but we are supposed to welcome defenders of his most racist policies because they claim to have voted Democrat once upon a time? Sessions used to be a Democrat too, along with the entirety of the segregationist South. Should we welcome them as well?

[aikoaiko]

62. Unfortunately, we're back to refighting the primaries.

[HughBeaumont]

73. +1,000.

Blaming people like me (Bernie Primary, HRC General voter) is apparently easier than looking in a damned mirror.

[wasupaloopa]

81. We all own what we did. I supported Hillary and have no reason to look in the mirror.

Hillary supporters are the ones with no guilt about Trump being in the White House.

[KTM]

83. And that is the thing

Last edited Wed Sep 6, 2017, 11:22 AM - Edit history (1)

That right there. THAT is part of the reason there is a never-healing rift.

[brush]

130. Sanders-primary-then-Clinton-general voters are not being blamed

It's the Bernie bros and others who voted third party, wrote-in Sanders, stayed home or voted for trump who are being blamed.

Come on, you know that.

[HughBeaumont]

131. Boy, could I win money off of you.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029520118

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029551663

The second thread even takes people like me to task on the reasoning that "even voting for her grudgingly" was bad somehow.

That, and a couple of days ago, I got called a racism-enabler because Bernie's "nothing but a white man's populist" or something. Classy. I'm an uncle to two black nephews and a niece, and that sort of horseshit accusation is something I'm not even BEGINNING to entertain. Then they went on to revise FDR's legacy, something AnCaps do and now some DUers are running with for some odd reason. That fucker's now in the Red-X Toilet.

[brush]

132. Come on. You know very well that the great majority of DUers and Dems don't go after...

those who voted for Sanders in the primary but Clinton in the general. We know that's how the system works. You battle in the primaries and vote for the winner in the general

You seemed to be ignoring that. Why?

A few hard-line haters are not the majority.

[BainsBane]

42. Good thing she isn't blaming him for running.

She's criticizing some of his tactics.

They should be welcomed back so they can continue to attack the Party and help Trump get reelected? Thy did plenty of that for a very long time, and it certainly didn't help Democrats win. In fact, their spreading Kremlin propaganda was a key reason for the loss. And even today they continue to repeat it. If they support Democrats, there is no problem whatsoever. It's when they use the site to attack the party and undermine its electoral prospects that it becomes a problem.
Besides, They've got plenty of sites where they can commiserate with their white nationalist brethren.

[aikoaiko]

60. Actually she is. When you read the text she says it was wrong for him to run as a Democrat.

[JustAnotherGen]

65. I agree with her

[aikoaiko]

66. I would expect no less from you.

I remember your opinions of Bernie's campaign well.

[JustAnotherGen]

108. Thank you!

That's cool!

[George II]

136. Nice to be remembered, eh?

[MrsCoffee]

71. It was.

It was the most hypocritical thing he has done.

[aikoaiko]

74. I don't think so at all given his goal of improving the Democratic party.

But I understand the need for some to say so.

[Tarheel_Dem]

112. "given his goal of improving the Democratic party"? You are kidding right? Since when did we...

need an outsider to "improve" our party? That was never his goal.

[Gore1FL]

99. The sad part is, you'd think she'd be more clued in on the process.

She of all people should understand the 2-party system the electoral college creates in the presidential election and the need to include the entire left in the process. Otherwise 3rd-Parties divide us in the GE.

[delisen]

107. I did not see that in the text. Can you post

where she said that?

[all american girl]

133. I'm just thinking off the top of y head, here

but maybe, just maybe we need to learn that his campaigning was wrong. His supporters, and bernie himself, had no problem with sexism and racism...remember vagina voters and confederate voters...complete harassment of Hillary supporters online....screaming at Hillary supporters leaving a rally...yep many remember and we can not allow this behavior to happen again. So addressing this helps us learn and become better. We can't just sweep abusive behavior under the rug and think it won't happen again, because it will.

[aikoaiko]

134. I don't think you can lay all of that at Bernie's feet, but I know many HRC primary supporters do.

But I will say this -- when you say that his campaigning was wrong you're saying that the 40-45% of primary participants who vote supported Bernie were wrong, too.

And this one isn't having any of that.

[all american girl]

137. Unqualified, rigged, crooked, pouting during the convention

speeches, lying about her, never calling out his supporters horrible behavior (OK a couple of times because it was just so bad), thinking the super delegates should over turn our votes, Jane going on Fox wanting the FBI to hurry up (she had a nice twinkle in her eye), thinking it's OK to say Hillary supporters were just vagina voters, saying that AA in the north are smarter than AA in the south, saying the south doesn't matter but Utah does...I'm sure I can come up with more.

Yes, primaries are awful, but almost all of this was done when there was no way he was ever going to win...he lost black and women votes, but he didn't stop and didn't care. So, yes, I lay a great deal of this at his feet. I have heard him say a lot that Hillary should just be quiet and follow him, but not once has he ever taken responsibility for his actions...and he is still doing it, but to all dems.

like I said, we need to look at this and not allow it to be tolerated by candidates, the racism and sexism...well, I don't think we will ever allow a candidate to behave like this without seeing real consequences...or at least I hope.

[Demsrule86]

139. I completely agree.

[delisen]

52. I don't see "blaming." Clinton is stating her opinion

And why should she not? I am interested in her opinion.

Sanders can write his own book or make his own statement.

I consider Clinton to have a good analytical mind and I appreciate her analysis.

I see no blaming of voters.

[aikoaiko]

59. She can state her opinions all day long, but they have implications to the listeners

Perhaps different implications for different listeners, but she's a politician and knows that.

You can enjoy her analysis, too, but I haven't seen anything reported in her book that hasn't been said since November 9th.

[LanternWaste]

67. Inference rather than implication. Observation rather than blame.

Inference rather than implication. Observation rather than blame.

Your bias seems to be getting the better of you in regards to this topic.

"I haven't seen anything reported in her book..."
Difficult to do if it remains unread by you.

"We're back to re fighting the primaries..." Yes. Yes you are.

[aikoaiko]

72. Well, I have read some of the excerpts and she's presenting more than observation.

Can you say that your posts are unbiased?

[murielm99]

13. Thanks for post, William.

[Jamaal510]

15. K&R

[sheshe2]

16. Our voices.

Minorities, vilified by the right will never sit down and shut up. We will stand with each other and will scream it from the rooftops.

Boston was so cool recently. 40K strong and we peacefully stood up to the hate as the Nazis, all one dozen of them slunk away.

[elmac]

18. this circular firing squad

will just help more fascists get elected.

[Gore1FL]

25. I think they are OK with that as long as there are scapegoats to blame.

It is much easier than self-reflection and corrective action.

[boston bean]

37. Yeah tell bobbers that.

[Gore1FL]

55. I don't know who bobbers is, but he or she is welcome to read my post. nt

[boston bean]

56. You know the bernie or busters. It's a group of people who refused

Refused to vote for Hillary in the general election.

[Gore1FL]

100. I wonder how many felt that way because Hillary supporters told them to leave.

There was an awful lot of "we don't need you" going on at DU. That attitude still prevails.

I suspect we at DU were and are a microcosm of a bigger problem.

[LanternWaste]

68. Yours is a most creative allegation lacking any evidenced to support it.

Yours is a most creative allegation lacking any evidenced to support it. No doubt, bumper stickers are the most rational discourse many people are capable of.

[Gore1FL]

101. 2016 is pretty good evidence. nt

[SunSeeker]

19. K & R

[RiverStone]

21. Why even ferment this division? Worn out H vs B shit....again

We have a fascist on the verge of starting WW3 and now is when we need to unify!

Hillary was right and wrong, so was Bernie.

[Demsrule86]

63. I suppose we should sit idly by while groups like Our Revolution,Move On and others on the far left

primary sitting Democrats and reduce our chances to take back the House and stop Trump. That is not in the past, it is happening now. Those who once supported Sen. Sanders are still taking aim at Democrats and the Democratic Party. They are still running against the Democratic Party, and when we have to fight a two fronted campaign as in 2000 and 2016, we lose. The coming elections will define this country for a generation. I will not go down without fight. I just don't think we should have to fight those who call themselves progressives...third party fools...who vote in a 'pure' fashion knowing their candidate will not win, but just fine with electing Republicans.

[Catch2.2]

22. Stop it already

Let's not forget that Hilary & the DNC conspired against Bernie Sanders. Hilary continuing to attack Senator Sanders is sad. Let's not bash Senator Sanders (who happens to have the highest approval rating among all current Senators). Let's focus on defeating the lunatic who's currently in office and retaking the House & Senate.

[wasupaloopa]

32. You have no idea how we feel and to tell us off

will never effect that

[BainsBane]

50. The Kremlin says the DNC rigged the primary

So it must be true.

That conspiracy started years ago, all the way back in 1920 and 1965. Than goodness Nomiki Konst is leading the charge to sort that out.

[NurseJackie]

61. LOL

[MrsCoffee]

70. Some people just can't handle the truth.

Sanders hired Paul Manafort's partner Tad Devine and Sanders team hacked Clinton voter models and Sanders spoon fed Trump supporters crooked Hillary bullshit, but somehow Hillary conspired against him?

We don't (or shouldn't) deal in "alternative facts" here. We can't be laser focused on 2018 by shutting our eyes to the reality of 2016.

Sanders approval ratings mean diddly to Democrats at this point. Now how many posts have you made stating Sanders should "stop it already" when it comes to his bashing Democrats and the Democratic Party?

[FairWinds]

24. Was Bernie right about Ms. Clinton?

DU now reads like The Onion

http://www.theonion.com/article/new-clinton-memoir-we-all-made-mistakes-you-made-m-56743

[Gore1FL]

26. +1 nt

[chwaliszewski]

33. +1

[BainsBane]

34. When is Bernie going to acknowledge his mistakes?

Clinton has acknowledged some. She expressed regret she let voters down. Bernie and his supporters have acknowledged none. Hillary won 3 millions more votes than Trump, and Bernie lost to Clinton's by 4 million out of a far, far smaller electorate. Yet Bernie bears no responsibility for his loss, while Clinton bears full responsibility for hers.
.

[LisaM]

39. Exactly.

Why do people say Hillary hasn't acknowledged mistakes? She has, over and over. But many things were beyond her control. We let her down. I feel that I let her down because I chose not to engage her opponents head on.

[leftofcool]

47. What Hillary really should do is tell progressives to fuck off

Howard Dean already has as has other Democrats. Hillary is too classy though.

[FairWinds]

122. Well actually, you folks on DU do that on a daily basis . .

And if the establishment Dems want to keep losing, attacking
progressives is a great strategy.

Evidence - When the Ohio Dem Party "Listening Tour" came to
our county, one of the questions they asked the audience was,
"How many of you were Bernie supporters?"

Every single person there raised a hand. (around 30 of them)

You get rid of them, you got no party left.

(Note how I cleverly avoided the use of obscenity in my post)

[R B Garr]

48. Yes. "What have you done for me lately?" is my

new focus. Sick of my party being maligned.

I loved that excerpt from Hillary's new book about how proud she is of all that Democrats have accomplished. We should be proud instead of browbeaten over some divisive talking points.

[mcar]

82. She must blame herself to their satisfaction

He is blameless. See, it's perfectly simple.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

119. Bernie didn't lose to Donald effing Trump.

[lapucelle]

54. "You really blew it, dumbasses. Bravo!"

That quote from The Onion regarding voters who went Trump, third party, or stayed home says it all.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

120. Lol.

Zoom. Right over your head.

[lapucelle]

121. The OP reads like the CNN piece that it cited.

I do, however, agree with The Onion's assessment of Trumpsters, Steiners, No Shows:

"You really blew it, dumbasses. Bravo!”

[BainsBane]

27. +100000

[melman]

28. Thank you for the bold commentary on third way voters

I have to say I'm inclined to agree

[BainsBane]

35. Be sure to tell them

When you take your time back machine to the 1990s. There are two kinds of voters now: those who vote Democratic and fascists.

[wasupaloopa]

31. I agree with you now as I did in the primary

It is hard for me to forget about the months we spent not being able to say here that we support Hillary and that our other site was somehow evil

[BainsBane]

36. Even after the GE

Our sense of loss was mocked in favor of recriminations over the primary.

[iluvtennis]

38. +++Agree that Hillary is spot on about Bernie...he's no democrat. He ran on our ticket for exposure

[a la izquierda]

40. Good to know I've spent nearly 5 months

abroad, paying little attention to politics in the US, and this is STILL what's being bandied about on this site and among Democrats.
All the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments. Good luck in 2018. It seems to me like the Democratic politicians will need helping snatching victory from the jaws of defeat again.

[clu]

41. it seems to me

that democratic politicians need to espouse and vote for progressive platforms

[a la izquierda]

44. Agreed. Nt

[Arazi]

64. Clinton's attack on Bernie is backfiring in my circles

It's only reigniting their anger at the DNC and the hard feelings from the primary.

Just when we most need to pull together alas. We cant afford to keep this rage stoked on either side.

Good to see you by the way

[MrsCoffee]

75. Yet Bernie's attacks on the party backfired in the most spectacular way.

It needed to be said and I'm glad she finally did.

[Arazi]

90. Are there any Dems who won't support Dems because of Bernie?

I'd say no

Are there any Indies/Bernie supporters who won't support Dems if they're "attacked"?

I'd say yes from what's happening out in RL in my circles.

But if y'all (and Hillary Clinton obviously) don't think these Dem-leaning Indies are worth the outreach then we lose. Lose locally, lose in 2018

[a la izquierda]

88. Thank you!

I've mostly been paying attention to international stuff and "big deal" news like the hurricanes and such. I supported Bernie. I voted for Hillary. This shit needs to stop.
And the DU divisiveness is getting really, really old.
Good to see you as well. Cheers from Frankfurt.

[Demsrule86]

138. Not in mine. In fact those who adored Sen. Sanders are not please with the criticism of the

Democratic Party.

[riderinthestorm]

94. Hey.you!

Been loving your adventures on FB...

Peace!

[a la izquierda]

98. Thanks. It's been a fun time.

Germany is rad.

[lunamagica]

43. K&R. Great post. I hope you post more often

[Gothmog]

46. K&R

[R B Garr]

49. Agreed, William, and good to see you posting.

[Demsrule86]

57. Third way voters are to blame for Katrina deaths and United...

Third way voters say they are progressive but they elect Republicans time and again...

[KTM]

77. I dont think you understand what Third Way is....

[Demsrule86]

92. I know what the third way is

And that was during Bill Clinton's time...he used it to take back power from the GOP and it worked...but that was then and this is now. There is no clintonesque third way...the third way has become...voting for third party candidates and using your vote to protest...it really means attacking the Democratic party. It will cause losses in 18 and 20.

[KTM]

96. Thats simply not true.

Third Way is still an active organization, and they still represent the same things they always have. You cant just change the definition of things to fit your desire.

They had a study discussed here at DU just yesterday !

Voting 3rd Party or casting a protest vote is still what it always was - an (unproductive) alternate to voting for the major two parties.

[greatauntoftriplets]

69. Good to see you here!

K&R.

[mcar]

76. Good to see you here, William!

Oh, and well said!

[mcar]

79. I have been pleasantly surprised at CNN's reporting on this

Another good snip

And so it's only fair to take a look at his previous efforts, and learn some lessons. Clinton is right: Sanders' attacks on her character fed the same narrative as Trump's. They hurt her in the general election. And she's right that running on the Democratic ticket when you're not a Democrat isn't just hypocritical, it can be incredibly damaging. For one thing, it gives a candidate a platform to trash the very party he says he wants to lead.

[Weekend Warrior]

80. K&R

Great to see you 769.

[PoorMonger]

84. The Thing About These Snippits

From the book that have released thus far .. is that they are cherry picked by someone ( in the media ) to have click bait pull , or in other words are inflammatory stuff designed to make you and I mad.

The media says they understand their outsize coverage of Clinton's email's and the incessant Trump coverage of promises we all knew were lies helped swing the election. But here we are again where Rebups and money grubbers want us - fighting what should be allies on the left.

Clinton wasn't a flawless candidate , Bernie wasn't either. With the meddling that went on it's just as likely we'd have gotten screwed if Bern won our primary - because for sure the Russians still would've hacked and run interference and some Hillary support wouldn't have pulled the lever for Trump.

But regardless now is the time to lay down that animosity. Hillary isn't running in 2020, and I doubt Bernie is.. anyway we've gotta get revved up for 2018 before all that

[Historic NY]

85. Meanwhile Sanders is out still trying to torch Democrats.

while selling his book. "Bernie Sanders Guide to Political Revolution."

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2017/08/30/fun-bernie-sanders-lambasts-democrats-in-nyc-church-n2375132

[kentuck]

86. I think Hillary made a mistake, by taking for granted, that...

...every Democrat would automatically support her. That simply wasn't the reality. Bernie was her primary opponent. He could have been much tougher on her.

By the way, she won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes.

[al bupp]

87. Isn't this re-fighting the primaries?

Just asking.

[Gothmog]

89. It is great to see Bill posting again

[R B Garr]

105. Al Gore is/was a great Democrat. Very progressive for his time, but

look what they did to him.

Look what we have now.

The connections between those two elections is that the so-called "progressives" were willing to tolerate a Republican in office. That is not progressive. That's why it's great Hillary will be turning over a new leaf and fighting back. Having our party maligned continually but being forced to take it so that people aren't "alienated" hasn't gotten us anywhere. We need to push back on their assaults.

[mythology]

104. Awkwardly a higher percentage of Sanders supporters voted for Clinton

Than Clinton supporters voted for Obama in 2008.

Clinton is objectively wrong. She lost because of her stupid email server. She was comfortably ahead in polling until the second Comey announcement. If she never had the server she would almost certainly have won.

Also thinking that just having a stack of solid policy plans is enough was a mistake.

[QC]

113. I suspect that the PUMAs will be swept away, along with other inconvenient facts,

in the revisionist campaign to make the 2016 primary the most vicious in history or whatever.

[DeltaLitProf]

127. Exactly.

And then the ridiculous decisions to take Michigan and Wisconsin for granted and leave those states to former Bernie Sanders staff . . . that was the final nail.

[Autumn]

141. I remember the PUMAS, I was a Hillary supporter then.

Obama did a hell of lot more than impugn Hilary's character, so did his supporters. There were times it was a vicious race and it didn't destroy the Democratic party.

[R B Garr]

109. She is totally right about Sanders. This quote gets to the essence of it:

"Clinton is right: Sanders' attacks on her character fed the same narrative as Trump's. They hurt her in the general election. And she's right that running on the Democratic ticket when you're not a Democrat isn't just hypocritical, it can be incredibly damaging. For one thing, it gives a candidate a platform to trash the very party he says he wants to lead."

This is the exact dynamic that we saw play out. Playing the "outsider" while still using Democrats for the exposure he could not get on his own allowed him to "trash" the party without paying any consequences because the divisiveness was to his advantage. It was duplicitous and very damaging.

Trump saw how effective the attacks were and copied them.

That statement right there sums up the dynamics very well.

[fallrey]

110. I am feeling some despair about our changing political environment

Despite all the uplifting arousal of political awareness recently, I can't see a way through to a really good outcome. I understand the strong wish for some to move beyond a two party system, and I too feel the ever-heightening pressure of our changing world and environment. I despise this administration.

But I don't see this turning around. I was a strong Hillary Clinton supporter, though I supported Sanders early on as so many did, because I wanted his ideas to influence what was discussed in the run up to the election.

There is so much to overcome now. The biggest sadness I have is about possible hacking, voter rolls being purged, gerrymandering, and those sorts of election tampering that make a fair electoral outcome unlikely. The role of disinformation isn't going away as far as I can tell. People who went for some of the false information out there to slander Clinton will believe those things probably their whole lives. Young people and very idealistic people will feel that more is within their grasp than probably can be accomplished, and that view of politics is being cynically fed by those who don't share those aspirations. It feels like Trump and crew are going to wreck our economy and our society, and the remedies may come--or not--but the damage done will last.

I hate the misogyny I saw and still see every time Clinton is mentioned, and also in the reaction we see to other real human women who can possibly achieve or already are in leadership positions. It is so unutterably saddening for me. I am not really surprised that so-called progressives take part in that. I am a red diaper baby and I've seem that played out many times in idealistic efforts.

I am saddened by what I see as American naivete, an unwillingness to fight hard while not succumbing to the idea that it is all-or-nothing, and an unwillingness to vote for a platform, not a charismatic person. History shows us examples of what happens when we throw out so-called incrementalism (translated: real, possible steps that change people's lives) in favor of revolution.

But I see, too, that some things in our society have to change, are long overdue for change, and have reached a point of crisis. I thought a president Clinton would address some of these, like institutionalized racism, like an ever-militarized police force, like a prison-industrial complex, like increasing inequity in our society. She would have made real changes that would have changed a lot of lives for the better. These matters are now heightened as we see the Republican agenda unfolding. But heightened awareness may not translate into real change--I am not sure it won't, but I suspect it won't. Perhaps what I mean is that yes, we'll have some wins, but the contrary momentum that we are experiencing now will overwhelm us, so that our important wins serve to soften an insane and harmful agenda, rather than to fundamentally move us in a better direction.

I wonder if physical fear of the consequences of climate change, which is bringing political, social and environmental changes (war, disasters), combined with the economic pressure most of us are feeling is bringing a time of harsh changes, not all for the better, even if we manage to get rid of Trump.

I hope we can be kind to one another and remember that we each hold only a part of what it is to be alive on this planet.

I will remain someone who wishes Clinton had been president, really without reservation. I want to ally myself with other progressives, liberals, whatever the label, in getting important work done in this country. Please don't add to the impossibility of being allied by tearing down our best chances of accomplishing that work, and please don't expect to agree with other allies on everything. It isn't possible and it is destructive for the outcome to expect that.

Feel loyal or not to the Democratic Party, but don't tear it down--we need it. And if our politics is torn apart, be ready for living a life that is a lot worse than the one we are navigating now.

[Demsrule86]

140. Great post. Yes we need strong Democratic Party supported by Democrats and the left leaning

independents...no on has ever passed progressive legislation except a Democrat...we can advance nothing without the party...and where we have multiple parties...you generally minority rule and almost always conservative leaning. The UK is a prime example.

[Iggo]

115. So fucking what? There's nothing we can do about that.

The people who say the butthurt from the '16 Dem Primary is going to cost us in '18 are also right.

And there IS something we can do about THAT. And that is to get the everloving fuck over it, work together, and defeat the REAL enemy: The Republicans.

[brer cat]

116. Wonderful to see you posting again, William.

I agree with you.

[JHan]

118. K&R

[DeltaLitProf]

126. He may have played a part . . .

. . . but the decision of the Clinton campaign to take the upper midwest for granted, to not put as many resources in those states and then trying to win such lost causes as Georgia and West Virginia made a greater difference.

[TEB]

129. Agreed