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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsClinton pressed Trump to deploy hospital ship Comfort to Puerto Rico. Now its on the way.
As the devastation from Hurricane Maria became more apparent Sunday, former Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton implored President Trump and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis to help the people of Puerto Rico. Send the Navy, she tweeted, especially the hospital ship USNS Comfort
Link to tweet
Two days later, Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Brock Long announced that the Navy will soon do exactly that. The decision, disclosed in front of the White House on Tuesday afternoon, was later confirmed by the Navy. It comes after days of critics saying that the U.S. government isn’t doing enough to support hurricane relief in Puerto Rico, a U.S. territory of nearly 3.5 million people that faces months without electricity and a long rebuilding process.
Navy Cmdr. Mike Kafka, a service spokesman, said that the ship will leave within the next four days, and it will take up to five additional days to reach Puerto Rico. He called the move a “prudent decision in light of current conditions on ground.”
MORE:
Link to tweet
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/09/26/clinton-pressured-trump-to-deploy-hospital-ship-comfort-to-puerto-rico-now-its-on-the-way/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.a00a131a7675
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joeybee12
(56,177 posts)
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Clinton as well needs to do something....
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)
brush
(53,776 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 27, 2017, 12:56 PM - Edit history (1)
then they turned on him when they saw what a debacle they had helped created.
Now she's so stupid she acts as if Hillary isn't doing anything for PR.
Well guess what, Mika, Hillary isn't the president but Hillary knew what to do and tweeted it and now the orange in-over-his-head fake president is doing what she suggested.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)I think th he knew starting a fight with him would be good for ratings
brush
(53,776 posts)trump's incompetence was showing so they jumped on that bandwagon, now they're going after Hillary and she's not the president.
She's a private citizen who has to tweet to wake up the trump team to send in the Navy.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)They would have said she wa overstepping her bounda.
lapucelle
(18,252 posts)last Sunday, shortly after noon. It's right in the WaPo story.
Poor Mika is so busy trying to absolve herself from blame for helping to elect Trump that she can't even get a basic timeline straight.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)
DK504
(3,847 posts)I'm sure the Clinton Foundation is prepping help for our fellow Americans.
Mark Cuban sent his plane down there with supplies. I'd love to know why every millionaire in this country hasn't loaded up frigates to send life saving supplies. Puerto Ricans are a day away from severe dehydration and fetid water diseases. This is an epic failure by the entire US government.
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)There during the Hurricane.
even before the Hurricane hit was mobilizing resources to assist after the storm passed.
https://www.clintonfoundation.org/clinton-global-initiative/commitments/providing-employment-pathways-youth-puerto-rico
Donations and aid page on the below link has been there since a couple days before the storm hit:
https://www.clintonfoundation.org/
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
samnsara
(17,622 posts)
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)doesn't the coast guard/navy/army anyonehave some rafts the people of PR can use so they don't have to WADE IN FLOOD WATER??
DK504
(3,847 posts)This is a repeat of Gov. Blanco during Katrina. They wanted her to list item by item what people need through out the country. Seriously she has to sit down and write memos and try to send through bureaucacy with no infrastructure to get info out of the country.
They are purposely doing this to her and this will back fire on all of them.
samnsara
(17,622 posts)...a thousand generators, a ship full of fuel...
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)in danger, they're out of meds. Insulin is a daily need, and with no refrigeration!!!!
Meanwhile the freaking idiot and the complicit media has been all about football and stunt debates. Sorry, but this should have been on the ground wall to wall coverage like they did with Houston and Miami. This is so much worse, and they can't even figure out that Puerto Rico is not a freaking country, it's AMERICAN.
Katie Tur made that mistake earlier. WTF is wrong with people?
bdamomma
(63,849 posts)with these jerks they are only concerned about themselves I hope Karma will bite this regime's ass very soon.
There are 3 1/2 million people who are suffering and need help. 
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)oddly some around here seem to have issues with people asking questions.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Knew it would be devastating, but apparently no one started the bureaucratic wheels turning to get the ships there, lift taxes, start the ships on their way. Ball dropped by trump, fema, everyone who could have gotten a headstart.
LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)What happens is you have people in gov that have no idea that PR is U.S. Territory and has US citizens. Maybe it civics was still taught along with geography more people would know things.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)FEMA was on the ground, and standing by when that hurricane hit, with the resources of the navy behind it.
This isn't about trump folks. Are we so desperate to lambaste Trump we ignore the work that is being done right now, that has been going on since the hurricane made landfall?
Let trump do trump. He hurts himself every time he opens his mouth.
This is the well deck of the Kearsarge. This shit has been going 24x7 since the storm moved on.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/554086/uss-kearsarge-puerto-rico-relief-efforts
irisblue
(32,973 posts)
Baconator
(1,459 posts)brush
(53,776 posts)Same as with Harvey. He went down there trying to sell hats, his wife in spike heels, and then didn't do much of anything...had to go back for photo ops.
He doesn't know what he's supposed to do and his staff doesn't seem to know what to advise except..."ah, go back, it was bad optics not to even have any contact with Harvey victims".
No, it's on trump to depatch the Navy, air drops by the Air Force and whatever other aid we can muster to help the American citizens in PR.
He just doesn't get it. He was preoccupied with making a show for his base by demanding the NFL firing football players and dis-inviting basketball players to the White House while totally ignoring his responsibilities towards PR for nearly two weeks.
Hillary had to goose him as to what to do.
Fake president. Sad!
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)I grieve for what should have been.
Scruffy1
(3,256 posts)He doesn't give a shit because they can't vote for him. This should have been done over a week ago. this is is willful malfeasance in office. Waiting for the Repbulican congrss to investigate the slow response. The Navy has many other assets which can help as does the Coast Guard. Where are their orders? If it would have beeen a Trump voting state like Texas they would have had help immediately.
spanone
(135,831 posts)trump can't be bothered.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The port of San Juan is 34.7 feet deep. If there is so much as a stump on the bottom from that storm, it will run aground. That means it stands offshore, and has a single SMALL helipad and no hangar. It also rolls badly in high seas. It's long overdue for replacement because both ships are oil tankers, not hospital ships. This is leftover repurposed tax-write-off hardware that isn't suited to the task.
Don't be so quick to disparage Trump that you ignore the work that is being done by people actually there.
The Kearsarge is a LHD. That means a helicopter carrier with the ability to launch and retrieve multiple helicopters simultaneously, as well as VTOL aircraft as big as the V-22 Osprey. It also has the big amphibious landing craft in it's bay (LCAC's). It has been in place and working disaster relief in Puerto Rico since day zero.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_%28LHD-3%29
They were saving people in the water DURING the hurricane.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article174535966.html
The USNS comfort is a waste of resources until they clear the port and it can tie up. The timing of its arrival is actually in-line with that kind of work. Until then, it represents probably 1/10th or less of the utility of the Kearsarge.
The fact that the Comfort and Mercy's hulls are deeper than normal, and roll in high seas, are reasons 1 & 2 that they need to be replaced. Looks fancy in a white paint job with a big red cross on the side. Still an oil tanker. Nothing about the hospital beds inside changes the fact that the hulls have very little utility in this scenario because you can't get people on and off the ship. Using something like the Kearsarge as a floating airport and then transferring casualties to the Comfort is frankly, dangerous.
Comfort is the wrong tool for the job. Want to actually help people? Send more LHD's.
Send something that can actually help.
spanone
(135,831 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Do you not understand there are already BETTER SHIPS doing FAR more in Puerto Rico than the Comfort can possibly do?
spanone
(135,831 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)This is a meaningless gesture, until that ship can actually tie up in the port of San Juan.
Trump is only too happy to make meaningless gestures.
USS Kearsarge is there. (From day 0)
USS Oak Hill is there. (From day 0)
Maryland Task Force One is there. (started arriving Monday)
FEMA is there. (From day 0)
Want a non-meaningless gesture? Send the USS Iwo Jima. One of the Kearsarge's sister ships. 10x the utility of a hospital ship, if not more. Send the USS New York.
Basically, we need amphibious assault capabilities, without the killing people and breaking things aspect of the normal job title. These ships excel at moving people and supplies off and onto shore. The Mercy/Comfort? Not so much.
brush
(53,776 posts)There are people in remote, inaccessible parts of PR who are running out of food and water. Air drops of supplies and paratroopers, if necessary, should have been ordered by trump more than a week ago.
Seems whatever aid is on the ground now is not reaching the remote areas because the infrastructure to reach them is destroyed.
Air drops could reach them.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It's politically expedient for him, and he's going to score some points with it. But it's stupid.
If he was competent, and gave a shit, they'd send the Iwo Jima. It can actually do things.
USNS Comfort can't help with that. It has a single, small helipad. It must tie up in port to offload supplies in anything resembling a useful manner. This is pitting human lives, against logistics. Logistics is not the Comfort's wheelhouse. If you have logistics in place, and a harbor, and you need hospital functions, then the Comfort can help.
This is actually happening. By air, by land, it's actually happening. And Trump deserves zero credit. What do you think the Office of the POTUS does? They don't organize this shit. I don't care if it's Trump, or Obama, or if the tables were reversed and it was Hillary instead. These plans and supplies are laid in YEARS in advance. Trump's involvement is no more than saying 'go' or he COULD probably stop it. Fuck it up in some way, like Christie with the Washington Bridge. (If he did, we'd finally be on the road to impeachment)
We're dumping resources into Puerto Rico by the ton. But Puerto Rico is a big place, and it has three and a half MILLION people. It takes time for logistics to catch up. That's reality. Sucks, and people are caught in abject misery in the meantime, but it will catch up. It's a mathematical function at this point.
No, I don't let Trump off the hook. A competent president would send in the Iwo Jima, two days ago. That's extra credit. That would require a grudging tip of the hat to a moment of shining competence in an otherwise shitty career. But he's unlikely to do that.
His response thus far, is essentially 'par for the course' and sending the Comfort doesn't change that. Actually, it hurts him a tiny bit in my estimate, because that ship will be a liability, not an asset, until the Port of San Juan is ready to accept it. I'm not impressed with political theatrics.
One helipad on the USNS Comfort is useless in the face of what we need there. It doesn't have a hangar. It probably can't even refuel a helicopter for the fire danger of carrying extra fuel in a hospital. I don't think you can land a V-22 on it. Probably nothing bigger than a standard coast guard search and rescue chopper like an MH-60.
It's not going to make a difference. Trump just deflected a little criticism, without making a difference.
Bengus81
(6,931 posts)So what is happening?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It's basically a race.
Trump is a sideshow clown. Better to look at what is actually happening, rather than what political points can be scored. Politics do not directly feed, water, and shelter people from the heat.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)It's the whole Jones Act thing, it's the lack of attention being paid by the Executive branch.
All they had to do was pretend to care, or even send someone out to explain as you've done here, or show that they're doing something.
They're not. And it's not legitimate to separate out the politics.
If they don't tell us what they're doing and all we see is idiocy with regard to the NFL while seeing and hearing nothing from the federal government, while we hear from the officials on the ground imploring for help and telling us they're asking for people without electricity and internet to send a memo from an office filled with chest high water, you can understand the frustration.
This is an incompetent administration. They have dedicated PR people who could tell us what's actually happening and why, but they're not doing that. People are appalled.
These guys cannot find their ass with both hands.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)control, and he should be taken to task on it.
My concern is less about that, because that IS the purview of DC, and the president, and easy to evaluate and present the whole story via the media to the populace in our warm, comfortable homely comforts with all the food and water we need, etc.
What has been dismaying here is the over-zealousness I am seeing in excoriating Trump at the expense of the incredibly hard work being performed in hellish conditions, for ridiculously long shifts as if it's not happening. It's like we're so desperate to cast Trump in a bad light we'll pretend none of this work is happening. We don't have to go there. Trump's a 'bad hombre' and we all know it, and that's the reality of his presidency. I'm sad that we're not cheering on the first responders agnostic of the occupant of the Oval Office, and I'm sad that the media simply isn't covering the work they are doing for the most part. People don't really seem to have a grasp of the scope and scale of the problem, nor the efforts brought to bear.
It also leaves open the door for Trump to score points. When all is said and done, we will have broader understanding of how much work was done, and Trump shouldn't get credit for it. But when the narrative becomes 'Why hasn't Trump sent the navy yet', later on when it becomes understood the Navy was there before the storm even passed, it lends political capital to Trump. He shouldn't get it. We leave open the possibility of him flipping the narrative later, where if we'd just left it alone, he'd have gained nothing. The current sitting president is responsible for very little here. Neither good nor bad. These plans, these ships, the response, the stockpiled materials, this represents YEARS worth of work. It happens whether the president says 'go' or not. The Coast Guard pulled resources from the entire eastern seaboard to send equipment and people to Puerto Rico before the storm hit, and they didn't wait for a presidential directive to do it. They were doing their jobs, because their jobs include contingency for these situations. It's their mission. A president is just a political organ. Affects policy, and the execution of the laws. Trump can suspend the enforcement of the Jones Act, but he can't manufacture a USS Kearsarge out of thin air. He didn't tell the Coast Guard to send every medium endurance cutter and heavy buoy tender they have, to get the shipping lanes and port of San Juan open. It's happening. That stuff was en route before the storm, because this is The Mission; saving lives. Protecting citizens. Credit goes, to the Executive, in the sense of past budget and policy decisions that led to the response, which is happening without direct intervention of the President, as it should.
I'm worried that we're blinded by spite here. The level of rage we all share was provoked, sure, I understand that. But we should be better than this in separating the political muck, from the boots on the ground where people are trying to survive.
I'm as concerned about how we are handling the perception of the event, as I am of the event itself. What it means about us, and what happens next.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Pleas do an OP. I can't overstate enough how I agree with every word you wrote.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)doing all the hard work?
I specifically mentioned the people I find at fault here, the administration and the PR people. Literally no one is blaming the people that are doing the hellishly hard work, and who's "pretending" stuff isn't happening?
We're simply asking what's being done, when people whose job it is to inform the public are NOT doing that job.
I don't understand why you're sad, cause we're all literally cheering on the first responders, the ones on the ground who are there and awaiting orders through the bureaucracy to get to work. As the people talking to the media are telling us.
We didn't go there, I don't how anyone would be assuming we went there. That's an odd assumption to make.
The media is covering what they're doing, you might want to listen to what they're saying, since it falls right into the actual criticisms of this incompetent administration that simply cannot do anything at all. That's the fault of those at the top, pretending ANYONE is saying something about first responders, the people on the ground, the ones doing the "hellish work" you refer to is simply ridiculous.
There is media all over the place on the Island and they're telling you stuff, they're not denigrating the servicemen and women who are on the ground, they're telling us about what the issues are, much of which is about what that bad hombre and his people are failing to do. It's literally because we have an idea of the scale and scope of the problem that we're asking questions about the delay, the dumb stuff they're doing.
Um, I honestly don't know what narrative you're talking about, most people know there are naval bases there, and what various ships were doing. I was simply wondering why this particular ship wasn't sent given it's nature and the need for immediate medical care, like dialysis etc.
Sorry, but the premise of your argument is not valid and it's ridiculous to pretend that calling out Trump's personal failures here "opens up a defense". It's literally because he's being called out that he's doing anything.
You seem to be reacting personally and emotionally to things that I personally have never said, and haven't seen. It's valid to ask questions, it's valid to call out incompetence, and this man and his entire administration have been failing badly on this. Covering for it, or ignoring it is silly.
The media is indeed cheering on all the first responders, no idea why you're ignoring that.
Medical supplies on a hospital ship are "years worth of work"? Not even sure what that means.
People are literally starving and panicking over water, food, things like insulin and dialysis and you're saying we should just cheer blindly while their needs aren't met?
Not sure why you think anyone is demanding that Trump conjure things out of mid air, or frankly what you're even accusing me of.
I think some people blinded by something here, but it's not those of us who are responding to what we're seeing and hearing on the news, from family and friends on the ground (yes, including those first responders, ever wonder what those doctors, nurses, EMTS, paramedics and family members who have been waiting for a solid week for emergency assistance), have a mission too, and they're being told that they need to write memos and can't do things until they get clearance from their superiors etc.
The level of rage we're feeling is well provoked, and perhaps less defensiveness about boots on the ground who literally are not being attacked as you imagine, but the people on the ground whose pleas are heart wrenching to see and hear, which we've been doing for a week now?
I'm concerned about how we're actually handling the event, since it seems that the people on the ground aren't being allowed to do their jobs due to the failures above.
This is Trump's failure, his own words and those of the people he appointed to oversee things are what they are, there is no "opening" and defending that ass and his incompetence is odd, attacking those of us asking simple questions because the people whose job it is to tell us what they're doing are failing to do so.
Stop defending Trump here, there is none for his behavior.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I have repeatedly pointed out he is due no credit for the capabilities of the response, and the president is superfluous to the system.
And yes, it does take years, because the ship has been filled and emptied and filled and emptied over and over, and so has everything else that can be mobilized.
When people are saying 'where is the navy, why didn't we send the navy', that's directly dismissing the work of the Kearsarge and Oak Hill. (And the Iwo Jima and New York, which have been helping around the Keys.)
'Where's the national guard, why didn't he send the national guard?' dismisses the work of over five thousand NG that were activated and in place before the storm hit.
'Where's FEMA' - Dismisses the work FEMA has been doing.
'Why no airlifts' - dismisses the work of Air Mobility Command.
There are logisitical realities that must be overcome. 'Why didn't he send the Comfort?' Because it doesn't fit in the fucking harbors, except San Juan, which is ONLY just now opened yesterday, daylight hours only, with restrictions, and no the Comfort isn't going to meet those restrictions. And nobody seems to give a shit about the FACTS of WHY that ship is not useful here. If it runs aground on wreckage in the harbor, the harbor is fucked entirely, because NOTHING else will get in. Most of the supply ships that are getting in now, are a full ten feet shallower at the keel. This is simple shit to see, discover, and understand, and yet we are so blinded by rage at Trump we can't fucking see it.
That's shameful.
I said earlier, I understand the rage was plenty provoked, and I won't pretend for one second that if Hillary was in the White House, the response would have been perceived any differently by the people on the right and they'd be howling impeachement and everything else.
But I thought we were better.
Trump's a dumbass. A vicious, mean spirited sack of dogshit. Totally understand. But keep in mind the Office of the President. We don't have a king. We have a President. It is not the President's job to micromanage this shit. They CAN'T. The response is much better than it is being portrayed, and again, Trump is due no credit for that. Obama. Bush II, to a degree. Capital assets. Warehouses stocked. This shit takes time and funding and political will, and Trump spends most of his day figuring out where to go golfing. We don't need to smear the response to make him look bad. He's already shit, and it hurts the people doing the work. The real work.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)No. This response is shameful. 5,000 troops? That's it? That's a mealy mouthed response, and I don't blame the people on the ground, I blame the people who put such plans into place and who aren't putting people where they need to be to do the job.
Again, who are these people that are saying this and who is discounting anyone? Are you even paying attention to what's going on? Or what anyone is actually saying? Or is that not a consideration when painting with a broad brush and engaging in strawman arguments?
Helping around the keys? Um, the problems are immediate and life threatening 8 days after the hurricane in Puerto Rico. It's nice that they're in the keys, but not apropos of anything right now.
Um, you want to applaud people for inadequate aid, as they're begging for food, water, medicine and emergency care? Gee, I guess addressing the concerns of people on the ground is verboten since it somehow attacks people by not throwing ticker tape parades for them as people are suffering and being told to write memos and attend conferences while their towns are hungry, thirsty, dying and homeless?
We're EIGHT days post disaster and people are dying. Demanding applause is just odd. Asking where airlifts are because people are literally dying in nursing homes and hospitals is attacking the work of those who aren't meeting the need?
It's been 8 days, and whatever logistical arguments you want to make about supplies, is defeated by what the media is actually covering today.
Seems like you're getting emotionally overwrought about all the wrong things, without understanding or even listening to what anyone said. I mean, so cool that the fucking port opened YESTERDAY, but hey it won't even be starting out for a few more days and then 5 days of sailing time, that's such great planning, right?
Also, for a port where NOTHING COULD GET IN, what are all those shipping containers that got in and are awaiting distribution but lack trucks? Hmmm....
Wait, who am I attacking by pointing out the failure of planning here?
I mean this seems to be attacking the hard and hellish work of the people who you know, got the supplies in, flew them in on various private flights etc. etc. etc. But why hold Donnie accountable for failing to coordinate the vast resources at his finger tips, why that could give people the opportunity to defend him!
This is simple shit to see, but for some reason some people have chosen to ignore the facts on the ground, what's actually going on. And it's pretty shameful to be chiding people for pointing out what's going on, and to act as if anyone is attacking the people doing what they can on the ground, who are too few, and too poorly commanded by Trump? That's even more shameful.
Quite frankly, if a competent leader was in office, the response would not be this terrible, as I've stated before it's the way they are comporting themselves, the failure to inform anyone or address their concerns that's the problem here. We are better. That's why we call out the problems we don't just cheer blindly and applaud things when there are people literally dying with the prospect of more doing so.
Trump is a dumbass. He's failing his job as president, which is to lead, to inform and comfort a nation, he's not doing that, you're excusing him.
The problem is that they are micromanaging and doing so stupidly, per anyone on the ground. The response is not better than what's being portrayed, ask the people on the ground who are telling you things you prefer not to hear.
You don't seem to be understanding what's going on, perhaps turn on the tv and learn what that is first. Also listen to what people are actually saying as opposed to what you wish to believe, they're not equivalent.
We're not "smearing the response" we're calling out the inadequacy by drawing attention to the voices on the ground that are telling you in explicit detail about WHY it's inadequate, has nothing to do with warehouses or Bush or capital assets.
He is shit, his response that which he has control over is shit, it's pretty shitty be complaining that people (who are suffering on the ground) who are calling out the shit, are somehow to be lambasted. It hurts the people on the ground who are suffering, and who are doing the real damned work themselves because of the inadequacy of the response and the delay in getting there. EIGHT freaking days out, with no clue how to get the supplies already there out to people who desperately need it.
The people on the ground who are doing the work are the neighbors helping each other, the hospital staff, the local leadership, the actual billionaires and others sending down and distributing supplies on their own. The cruise ships, the chefs, the people whose work is being ignored while you demand we leave Trump alone and applaud people by silencing the cries of those in terror for their lives.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I say
You say
Because you apparently heard 'there's only five thousand national guard on scene' or something like that, even though that's not what I said. There's more than that there now.
The five thousand were NG IN Puerto Rico because they live there, and were activated and put in place prior to the storm making landfall. Back when it wasn't sure it was going to directly hit the island. Should we have sent more beforehand? No. Do you imagine there were empty hurricane shelters sitting waiting for National Guard to fall out of the sky prior to the storm hitting? Where would you have put them? The victims who live there needed shelter. You don't make a disaster better by pumping more people directly into the path of the disaster as it is happening.
There's more national guard there now. There's Coast Guard, brought in. There's marines. There's navy. There's air force work. FEMA is there. They brought in what they could prior, which isn't a whole lot because you have to shelter the people there AND the stuff you brought in.
"I blame the people who put such plans into place and who aren't putting people where they need to be to do the job."
Then you're ultimately blaming Obama, and Bush II, and Bill, etc, and the FEMA/Pentagon assets they appointed. Let's be really clear here that when you say that, you know so little about the situation, that you are actually blaming former presidents, including two much beloved by us if you stop and think about it for two seconds and set aside your pointless rage.
You seem to have misheard me on the first half, but yes, ultimately you'll end up empowering him.
Airlifts are happening. Stop and think for a second. You don't randomly drop shit all over the island. You'll foul some into trees, bogs, swamps, water, and it'll be inaccessible and wasted. OR, you'll drop it ON PEOPLE. A pallet of water bottles isn't much use to someone flattened under it. Airlift has to be targeted and meaningful, and it is happening. I'm sorry that it's not happening fast enough to please you, apparently, but you actually don't matter here.
No competent leader would attempt to manage this situation. You're being silly. It is beyond the scope and ability of the executive. The response is a SYSTEM. Your brain does not individually direct white blood cells to combat an infection. It CAN'T. It's not supposed to. This stuff runs off playbooks.
You say that but the refrain from thread to thread here is 'where's the navy', etc. Which is not possible if it is in fact 'simple to see'.
Hardly. I've pointed out critical failures he's responsible for. Such as sending the Comfort after the fact. Supplies and manpower are being diverted to that ship that will not arrive in time and won't be utilized. His inaction and later reversal on the Jones Act is days too late. That's stuff that's actually on his plate. Stuff he's actually responsible for, and he failed, as expected.
"The problem is that they are micromanaging and doing so stupidly, per anyone on the ground. The response is not better than what's being portrayed, ask the people on the ground who are telling you things you prefer not to hear. "
Depends on where you ask. The scope and scale of the problem is unreal, and your expectations don't seem realistic.
Then explain to me why people keep asking where the Navy is, when the Navy was there day 0 with ships MASSIVELY more capable than the USNS Comfort. If you can explain JUST that one cognitive dissonance, I'll back away and shut up. Go ahead. I eagerly await enlightenment. Explain why people are so fixated on sending a ship that CANNOT DOCK YET, and CANNOT AID ANYONE today, even if it was magically fully stocked, and magically teleported a mile offshore of the port of San Juan.
Explain to me why everyone keeps asking that question, when reality is a completely different story.
Of course, I already know the answer; we're looking at a humanitarian disaster through political filters. That's why. Take the fucking filters off.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Logistics on this scale take weeks to organise we were told. Additional troops can't be put on the ground because they'll take away resources from civilians . And we can't blame Trump for that.
Now the Trump apologist narrative has been changed
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The Kearsarge bashed it's way through 20 foot swells and 100mph winds to participate in the rescue of a capsized yacht, wherein 3 of the 4 occupants were rescued.
This isn't about trump. If you engineer a swiss-army-knife disaster response system that can respond to THREE hurricanes across the gulf, sustain that level of effort for more than a month AND send stuff to Mexico for their earthquake, it is a system that CANNOT rely upon a single executive.
As I have said elsewhere in this thread, trump is due neither criticism nor credit for the non-political elements of the response. He didn't build FEMA, the Coast Guard, the Navy, etc. He didn't design, or implement their plans. He didn't stock their supplies or buy their capital assets and by ALL FUCKING MEANS do not suggest the orange road rage simian in the Oval Office should be directing this shit. He can't, and he shouldn't try. He SHOULD be held to account for the political response, meaning using the Comfort as a show-pony, and hesitating on the Jones Act. The latter being of interest from a possible criminal investigation angle. If he's profiting from those shipping companies, that's an interesting angle of attack, more to come on that later. Right now, people are suffering.
The Coast Guard has destroyed over 1 billion dollars worth of equipment doing S&R and hurricane relief across the gulf in the last two months. Think about that. Broken helicopters. Broken ships. Broken tools. One billion dollars worth of shit that is completely inoperable and must be replaced, and they're STILL out there doing heavy lifting. The port of San Juan would not be open at all right now if not for the Coast Guard.
This shit takes time.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)The whole ship reeked for vomit.
But there were people here telling me as recently as yesterday that the Navy can't be there yet because of the bad weather and of the risks to the ships. My reponses could be condensed to "bullshit".
Trump can be blamed for taking days to lift the Jones Act, for seeming to not care much about Puerto Rico, for taking a week to name a person in charge and federalizing the relief effort and putting the Army in charge. The lower levels of the executive branch and Sec of Defense Mathis are doing a stellar job while Trump and his immediate staff are acting and sounding fubar.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Let's take a step back, and let me encourage you to do a quick search for 'disaster supplies waste hurricane Issac' or 'superstorm sandy'. There's plenty of NPR investigations and reporting that went into how emergency vehicles were used as PR props (just like the Comfort is being used today) resulting in vehicles being used as backdrops for news conferences, or driven around half-empty just 'to be seen' responding. Train loads of supplies went to the dump afterward.
You don't want politics in this business at all. its fucking poison. You don't want to provoke trump at all here, because he can ONLY fuck things up. Let the system work. It IS working. The president is largely superfluous to this process. Provoke a political response, and the support people need will actually be damaged. It's happened before. It's happening now.
But at the end of the day it's 3.4 million people.
FEMA recommends a gallon of water per person per day. That's 3.4 million gallons of water per day that Puerto Rico needs, to drink, sanitation, etc. Ideally, that's 13,600 TONS of water per day, bare minimum, not counting the weight of the packaging. Let's scale compare to the biggest nut in the arsenal. A C-17 can move about 86 tons. (The C-5 is not much more payload, actually, and there aren't as many of them, and they are even more restricted on landing requirements, so let's talk C-17) That represents 158 flights per day for that class aircraft to meet bare minimum. The United States has 223 of them, worldwide. Some are out of service, under repair. Some are stationed in active conflict zones. Some are held in reserve. It's all downhill from there, even taking into account other aircraft. And you have to distribute that water across uneven population densities across 3,515 square miles. Their airports are only partially in service... Roads to and from are trash. You have to break those shipments down into 2.5.-5 ton capacity truck shipments.
That buys you a day. And tomorrow you get to do it all over again, and that's just water, basic needs. No medicine. No food. No fuel for generators for AC, that consume gallons per hour. Average American uses more like 50 gallons per day, not 1 gallon.
This is not an easy problem, and it comes on the heels of two major hurricane landfalls, AND the air force has been diverting some supplies to the earthquake in Mexico.
Politics just complicates the problem. It goes as fast as it can. Yelling about it, and throwing shit, and pointing fingers can only slow it down.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)they have not taken a moment to apprise themselves of.
Please go turn on the news and figure out what the actual situation is 9 days after a disaster and then figure out why what you typed in your several responses don't really address my point.
You're literally ignoring what anyone is saying and the facts here, to bang your drum about politics vs something else, when it's pretty clear that politics and incompetence are what's keeping supplies from getting to people.
Literally nothing you said here represents any clue about what's going on here, stop with the NPR reports and warehouse nonsense and go listen to the people the ground. San Juan Mayor has a few tidbits you need to listen, understand and internalize.
It's not a difficult problem to distribute what's already there. They can't figure out how to do it.
Once again, as I told you, as the mayor has been telling you for the past two days, THEY HAVE THE SUPPLIES.
Politics are not the issue, so stop trying to shield Trump from legitimate criticism as he golfs and yells at the NFL and doesn't figure out how to get more troops on the ground when what they're lacking are human bodies to dispense supplies on hand in the port.
Please stop yelling about things you refuse to understand, throwing shit around about things that are not relevant, and pointing fingers at those who are telling you that you aren't picking up on what the actual issues are here.
VOX
(22,976 posts)Actually, the way the game is played now, it's nearly ALL politics.
Biggest example at the moment is health care. You get sick, go to a hospital for treatment. Then what?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Thank you for your informative posts.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Sorry if we sound critical of trump's response, but we are thinking it is taking too long to get aide there.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It was ordered to prepare, prior to the hurricane hitting, but the Kearsarge was tapped instead. They're essentially sister ships.
I do not know why, I would have sent both in a heartbeat. It would effectively double our response. Unless there is a very good reason, THIS is the miss, not the USNS Comfort.
I think the reason the Iwo Jima was not sent because of the appearance of balance of force in the Atlantic. A LHD group is of slightly less strategic value than a full sized carrier, but only slightly so. But that's speculation on my part.
Edit: the USS America is also in range, and it's a very different design than the USS Oak Hill (Already in Puerto Rico, helping) but it serves the same role. (Amphibious landing craft launching point.)
B2G
(9,766 posts)I'm just not sure where at the moment given the extensive need from the 3 recent storms.
This was posted on 9/7, but that ship is obviously not sitting idle. BTW, I've totally enjoyed reading your posts on this thread. Very informative. Thanks!
***********************************************************************
NORFOLK, Va. - The US Navy amphibious assault ship USS Iwo Jima (LHD 7) and amphibious transport dock USS New York (LPD 21) have arrived in Norfolk to pick up supplies and equipment for hurricane relief.
Mayport-based USS Iwo Jima, USS New York arrive in Norfolk for supplies before responding to hurricane relief
Sept. 7, 2017
News 3 first reported the Navy's hurricane relief plans on Tuesday.
The Norfolk-based amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge (LHD 3) and dock landing ship USS Oak Hill (LSD 1) both left on August 31 to respond in support of Hurricane Harvey recovery efforts in Texas.
After the ships left, the threat of Hurricane Irma intensified and both ships remained underway, but also ready to respond in support of Hurricane Irma relief efforts in the Caribbean. On September 7, the ships headed for the Virgin Islands along with the USS Wasp.
The USS Iwo Jima and USS New York were sent from Naval Station Mayport to pick up supplies and equipment in Norfolk before heading out.
The Florida-based ships do not yet have any official tasking but will remain ready to respond wherever they are needed.
http://wtkr.com/2017/09/07/mayport-based-uss-iwo-jima-uss-new-york-arrive-in-norfolk-for-supplies-before-responding-to-hurricane-relief/
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)How they land or dock?
LHD = Landing Helicopter Dock
LPD = Landing Platform Dock
LSD = Dock, Landing Ship
B2G
(9,766 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I was a little salty because I though they were basically standing by.
Lots of FUD in the news, and nobody seems to want everyone to have a clear picture of what's actually happening.
As far as I can see, the Navy is actually busting it's ass to help, and the Air Force is chipping in.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Yep, they are busting ass. I hope it gets better for folks down there very soon.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)33' and 34.7' is way too close for comfort. What if it sinks?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)What will likely happen is, the ship will sit far offshore, safe, and stifled to the traffic from a single helipad.
Eventually the harbor will be cleared and safe, and it'll dock, then it'll be useful.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)A grounded ship might fall over. Not much use as a hospital on its side.
But I give you credit, a disaster like this does require out of the box thinking.
Duppers
(28,120 posts)All DU needs to see this info.
Thx.
Wounded Bear
(58,653 posts)The east coast is still feeling the effects of Maria, high winds and seas. It might not be a great idea to sail that vessel into the teeth of that fading storm until now.
B2G
(9,766 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)As an oil tanker, it is not meant to remain stable in high seas.
Oh boy, twelve whole operating rooms! (Installed in a roller coaster)
Wounded Bear
(58,653 posts)one reason it has to be so large.
Late add: yeah, you can look at a picture of the ship and see that it might not be real seaworthy in heavy storms.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Issue number one, being that it runs deeper than even the largest cruise ship on the planet, denying it access to something like 70% of the ports in the Gulf.
BlueAZure
(19 posts)I've been advocating this since it became apparent how devastating the damage is to the island. Send in the Navy.
In addition to the Hospital ship, we should send a Carrier (possibly of the "gater" variety), a Supply Ship (specially stocked), and the Sea Bees.
brush
(53,776 posts)and possibly paratroopers to assist in retrieving and getting the dropped supplies to the people in inaccessible areas (infrastructure to reach them by road has been wiped out).
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Follow the air force Air Mobility Command for details on airlift relief to Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and other parts of the gulf.
Link to tweet
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The USS Kearsarge and USS Oak Hill are in place. The Kearsarge was pulling people out of the water DURING the hurricane.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article174535966.html
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/554086/uss-kearsarge-puerto-rico-relief-efforts
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)in dock in VA? Why did they take 2 freaking days to decide to send them out?
And it's going to take 4 days to prepare?
The most incompetent administration ever. Even when told EXACTLY WHAT TO DO they can't find their own rears with both hands.
hack89
(39,171 posts)It is not fully manned or supplied when it is not deployed. It is maintained by a skeleton crew. Secondly the medical staff is not assigned full time to the ship - they are stationed at Navy medical facilities all over the country. They have to be identified and travel to the ship. And then the ship has to be restocked with perishable food and medical supplies.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)AFTER someone reminded them they had such a ship. Why wasn't this ship being readied, since they KNEW the devastation of this storm? So soon after an already devastating storm?
They had to wait for Hillary to say something, two days after that, and full week after the storm that everyone had been watching had already hit?
There is no reason in a month of repeated natural disasters that we've been tracking from their inception, that there should have been a skeleton crew, an unprepared aid ship etc. etc. etc.
I can understand if it's something unexpected, for which we had little heads up like a massive earthquake or something, but that's not the case here.
We knew, for weeks, and we're sitting here a full week after the storm, 2 days AFTER a competent leaders called for it to be sent, and they decided TODAY that they need to start preparing?
They got caught with their pants down, HRC shined the light, the San Juan Mayor exposed them even more and still they waited.
There is no excuse for this, and your reasons, while valid in normal circumstances simply don't address the incompetence here.
Even if it wasn't for American citizens of Puerto Rico, we had American citizens in the USVI who needed help. WTF were they doing for weeks?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The DoD said flat out days ago, they wouldn't be sending this ship because it doesn't fit in Puerto Rico's ports.
Port San Juan is 34.7 feet deep. This ship drafts 33 feet. That's sketchy under ideal circumstances. These are not ideal circumstances. Anything could be sitting on the bottom of that channel, and it need be no more than 2 feet wide to make contact with the USNS Comfort. Stumps. Logs. Cargo containers. Sunken boats. Whatever the hurricane deposited.
It takes time to clear and certify the port again.
This ship was not chosen for the mission because it is ill suited for the mission. A landing assault ship and a helicopter carrier were chosen instead. (Kearsarge and Oak Hill)
Mercy and Comfort need to be retired. They are practically useless. They can't access something like 70% of the ports in the gulf. They're oil tankers repurposed and recycled into hospitals.
What we need, is a civil defense system with capabilities just like the Kearsarge. It has the highest utility for disaster relief work of this nature. It can work while the ports are still wrecked. It can work where there are no ports at all.
The biggest cruise ship in the atlantic drafts 26 feet, if that puts the Comfort's 33 feet in scale. It's a ridiculous solution to the problem. Another interesting design feature, since it's an oil tanker, is that it is not terribly stable at sea. This is not a desirable feature in a floating hospital.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)that is self sufficient, so it's feasible for them to function without needed to be docked in port, as opposed to being completely unprepared, requiring 4 days of preparation and 5 days of travel time?
I totally understand what you're saying, but we were already in a state of disaster, the ship is actually better suited to serve the needs of the population, didn't even need to be in port.
They're what we have now and they should have been at the ready, days ago. it's been a week since Maria hit.
I agree with your assessments and thank you for the knowledgeable post, with all the extra info. I'm just saying if this is what we have at hand, the disaster was a week ago, we should not be starting today to prepare. Even if they couldn't go in to dock at the port, they could have been stationed close enough.
It's that the hospitals are all in danger, they have the current capability to deal with those patients who could have been ferried on board, as they're likely going to have to do.
We have the most expensive military in the word, magnitudes more expensive than the rest of the world and we don't even have hospital ships that are functional? Guess the MIC doesn't profit from them.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Supplies that could have been loaded into it, went into Kearsarge and Iwo Jima instead. Both have been deployed all over the gulf, the Kearsarge specifically to Puerto Rico.
IIRC, the Iwo Jima was docked a good solid golf drive away from the Comfort 2 weeks ago.
The problem with sitting the Comfort offshore, isn't self sufficiency. It's thoughput. Ship-to-ship transfers to the Comfort are dangerous at sea. It's an oil tanker at heart. It rolls. A lot. Especially in stormy seas. So that leaves the helipad for on-boarding casualties, and off-boarding supplies. A tiny helipad. With no hangar, and no elevator-fed below decks hangar. This is a race/battle of logistics, and the Comfort isn't built for that kind of race.
Aside from sheer number of operating rooms, it is wholly inferior to the Kearsarge. It's barely a help at all, until it can safely tie up in the port of San Juan. THEN it becomes quite useful. The Kearsarge's complement of helicopters, along with a crapload of USCG and navy helicopters can stage next to the dock, and you've got something worthwhile going. You can then safely move large numbers of casualties onto the ship.
That's why the DoD didn't send it. It'll be useful later. Not today, or yesterday, etc. A foot and a half of clearance in a port that just suffered like the rest of the island, too dodgy a proposition. The USS Oak Hill, alone, can do more than USNS Comfort, at the moment. And the Oak Hill pales in comparison to the Kearsarge in raw capability.
These are ships purpose-built to deliver manpower and supplies onto almost every mile of shoreline on the planet, and get them back off again. It's a logistical beast. Supplies. Munitions. Troops. Search and Rescue. The ship cares not for these distinctions. It just moves things. LOTS of things, quickly.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)medical care? A hospital ship is a bit different than an aircraft carrier etc. right?
Ah, I understand a bit better. Thanks for explaining, as you can see I don't know much about navy vessels, or oil tankers.
Is there a reason we don't have purpose built hospital ships that can address these issues?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)in any navy ship, short of the Comfort and Mercy specifically.
Invasions risk a great deal of casualties, so the LHD's have excellent and high-throughput medical triage and treatment facilities. (Kind of a depressing thought, but useful in this case)
Being logistics hubs, they are also well equipped to airlift casualties all the way back to the mainland, if necessary. (Bit like getting blown up in Iraq by an IED, and then immediately triaged, and airlifted to Germany for treatment.)
The reason we don't have non-military LHD's is simply cost. No one wants to invest in it. No one sees the next storm, the next earthquake, the next massive wildfire, as a threat until it's looming on the horizon. We spend more money than the next 25 top spending nations (of whom something like 18 are our allies) on the military, yet somehow we can't scrounge enough money to make a non-military version of the Kearsarge. I think we should have dedicated ships for this. It's not like the need is going away.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Link: https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=USS-Wasp-LHD1 (2nd paragraph)
The USS Oak Hill has 24 beds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_ship#Other_shipborne_hospitals
Since a LSD is always paired with LHA or LHD, the larger ship will generally handle the medical needs of any ship in the task group.
Also keep in mind that the Marine complement will also have their own medical personnel in the form of corpsman, whose training is roughly equivalent to a RN or Physician's Assistant.
hack89
(39,171 posts)until the ports are fixed and there is a place for it to tie up to, there is no point in sending it.
The Navy doesn't stop everything they are doing during hurricane season to sit around ready for disasters that may or may not happen. The Navy is stretched to the limit as it is just handling routine deployments.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)The issues is that the ship isn't stocked up and ready to go, it's still in port, 4 days of prep necessary., 2 days after HRC called them out and told them it existed. 1 week after the storm.
You'd think that having a hospital ship ready to go in Hurricane season when one was aiming for US territories, a mere week after a hurricane, they would be.
No excuse for this lack of preparation.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Supplies are never unlimited. But the supplies are moving.
If they'd been loaded into Comfort, they'd be unable to unload it at Puerto Rico. It would bottleneck itself. Better to move the materials by other means.
It's not just the Oak Hill and Kearsarge unloading into the Gulf areas stricken in these hurricanes. There's the New York, and the Iwo Jima, and several other ships. PLUS Air Mobility Command. There's chartered private aircraft. There's marines/coast guard rotorwing aircraft.
Stuff is moving. It's not sitting on the dock waiting to be put aboard Comfort.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)My issue is, that they made the *announcement* today, that they were going to *start* to prep and supply the ship.
I totally get that other ships were needed for immediate delivery of supplies, but we're a week later and the supplies for this ship are not what they'd be loading onto the other craft. They weren't only supplying from one location.
How would it be a bottleneck to have a place for hospital patients, nursing home residents, and anyone else that needed medical care to have a place where their specialized needs would be met?
Hospital "stuff" would be a bit different than stuff they could load onto other craft right?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Airlift, dock, and ship-to-ship transfers at sea. Airlift and ship to ship are a bottleneck.
Docking is ideal, but again, the oil tanker nature of the ships is the problem. They run deep. Under ideal conditions, there's only one port in Puerto Rico they can access at all, and currently that's in doubt. But if you can dock, now you can drive materials right on and off the ship, and move people by the hundreds in minutes.
Ship to ship is crazy dangerous, especially with a hull shaped like the Comfort and Mercy, and given the tropical storms/hurricanes in place now. You can't tie the ships together, you have to make a suspension-bridge like umbilical between two independently moving ships, and they have to be in motion to keep the whole maneuver stable, it's quite unpleasant and dangerous. You can move people, but supplies is a lot more limited. You can tie up smaller boats to the Comfort, and hand-load supplies, but this is much slower than driving a forklift on and off the ship in dock.
Airlift is very flexible, but in the case of the Comfort, bandwidth and throughput is limited. Bandwidth is limited in the sense of size. It's got a small helipad, no hangar. There are size restrictions on what kind of helicopters can land, and I think the V-22 is completely out. The pad is simply too small. On the throughput side, whatever lands, owns the pad until it leaves. You can't shuffle the aircraft off the pad into a hangar, or into an elevator to go below deck. To compare, the Kearsarge can simultaneously launch or recover 6-7 helicopters or V-22's, and have another 15 sitting on deck ready to go, plus move more below deck. Kearsarge can also refuel and repair these helicopters. If a helo lands on Comfort and breaks down, unable to take off, you basically have to shove it overboard to clear the helipad.
You might have picked up on my advocacy for a civilian version of the Wasp-class LHD's for replacement of the Comfort and Mercy. They are ridiculously capable swiss-army-knives with 64 patient beds and six operating rooms. An additional 536 beds for casualties if needed. Two Wasps (Kearsarge, Wasp, Iwo Jima, etc) working together have the same number of operating rooms, and more beds than the Comfort. With the added bonus of moving high volumes of people under just about any conditions, PLUS depositing high volumes of supplies, again under just about any conditions. And they're rugged. The Kearsarge was punching through 20 foot waves and 100mph winds while the hurricane was still going, to participate in search and rescue for a capsized yacht. (3 of the 4 passengers were saved)
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)Thank you for your patient explanations.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)what exactly is the hurt that's being caused by conversation that's no one is forcing you to read?
There is no need for the hostility.
B2G
(9,766 posts)every single response.
He obviously has far more patience than I do.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)whatever bias is informing your reading between the lines has affected any honest ability to apprehend the actual lines themselves.
He obviously has better reading comprehension and lacks a chip on his shoulder.
People spoiling for a fight see everything as a provocation and given how the divisive forces like to inject toxicity based on personal animosity and perceived gang affiliation, I can see what informs this dishonest attack.
Hostile posts attempting to create division and animosity where none is present, are not needed.
Calm yourself and direct that hostility toward someone interested in playing your tired, weak and boring game. That isn't me.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Bye
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)Apparently attacking people is how you guys amuse yourself.
Pure hostility and divisiveness, and 3 messages that do nothing but attack yet somehow add nothing substantive, intelligent or worthwhile to the discussion.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)Why doesn't Puerto Rico have more deep water ports? Seems like a no brainer.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Not sure the completion date, but this will push it back.
Baconator
(1,459 posts)Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)Baconator
(1,459 posts)X happening prior to Y doesn't mean that X caused Y...
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)It was obvious as the sun rose that Puerto Rico needed immediate assistance. A certain administration was oblivious to that.
Baconator
(1,459 posts)... but Clinton's tweet wasn't the magical thing that got them moving.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Reality is what got them moving. Several days on. After everyone waddled and people finally started stepping up and saying "we need to do X."
She would've had the ship off the coast in safe waters before the hurricane even hit. It would've been there day 1. There'd be a full scale "military invasion" with aid of Puerto Rico right now.
Baconator
(1,459 posts)As for the tweet, I think you'd have a very difficult time showing that was the tipping point.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)So that's completely false. On Chris Hays she said what she would've done day in preparation for the hurricane. She would've taken it very seriously. Puerto Rico was in the target on all the maps 3 days out. We had plenty of warning time. FEMA was even already there under its own contingency. They had aid already ready to be delivered. But the worst case scenario the troops would've been there when the sun rose, the best case, they get a training exercise and everything would've been fine (and of course, she would've probably got heat for deploying a massive relief effort if it wasn't needed).
You can counter "of course that's what Clinton would say after the fact" but Democrats have always stood up when such adversary happens. There's no reason to believe that she would not have done that. It would've been her first true disaster as a President. I think she would've done it. It would've been her first "military moment" as COC.
Baconator
(1,459 posts)... but 20/20 hindsight and not having to conform to any actual logistics, politics or reality makes "Shoulda/coulda/woulda" pretty easy...
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)...it's actually really easy to order the engineering battalions to go full force in there. FEMA handles logistics, the military is the grunt work. This is all administrative stuff that Trump has no clue about.