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spanone

(135,891 posts)
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 10:07 AM Oct 2017

Banning Bump Stocks Wont Solve Anything

AUSTIN, Tex. — In the wake of the Las Vegas massacre, Congress and even the National Rifle Association seem on the verge of a breakthrough: regulating the so-called bump stocks used in that killing spree, aftermarket devices that effectively turn legal, semiautomatic rifles into deadly, automatic weapons of war.

Whenever the N.R.A. embraces a gun-control measure, it’s worth looking further under the hood. And, in fact, a ban on bump stocks falls into the same trap as so many previous attempts at “sensible” gun control have — it treats a symptom, but not the disease. As with the assault-weapons ban, it’s not how the gun looks that matters; it’s how it works.

While the Las Vegas massacre was remarkable for its spree of fire, it fit a pattern: Many mass shootings involve rifles designed for automatic fire for the military, the design of which has then been modified to operate as legal, semiautomatic weapons for the civilian market — the AR-15, related to the military’s M-16, being the most famous, but not the only, example.

Civilian ownership of machine guns, which fire continuously as long as the trigger is pulled, has been restricted in the United States since 1934. But their semiautomatic equivalents, which fire just once with each pull of the trigger but to a casual observer look no different from the military versions, have become wildly popular. At my local gun store Thursday, there were as many semiautomatic, military-style weapons as anything; indeed, more than traditional deer-hunting guns shaped from steel and walnut. A beautiful Brazilian over-and-under shotgun-rifle combination sat in a corner, underpriced and apparently unloved. (I personally don’t understand it; having been issued an M-16 by Uncle Sam in the summer of 1983, I cannot think of another firearm I’d less like to lug into the woods on the first day of hunting season.)


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opinion/banning-bump-stocks-wont-solve-anything.html
39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Banning Bump Stocks Wont Solve Anything (Original Post) spanone Oct 2017 OP
Why are military type weapons sold to the public? SHRED Oct 2017 #1
Simple, the gun-humpers irrationally want/need them and politicians don't have the guts to say "No." Hoyt Oct 2017 #2
Pols need their votes in order to pass tax cuts for the rich Yavin4 Oct 2017 #17
It will solve the problem of allowing a semi auto gun to essentially become an automatic weapon. onecaliberal Oct 2017 #3
It will not solve that problem. former9thward Oct 2017 #4
I know every other civilized nation does not have this problem because they have common sense onecaliberal Oct 2017 #5
When the first amendment was written printing presses were operated by hand. former9thward Oct 2017 #7
Yes because we all know printing presses are capable of mass carnage. Stop changing the subject. onecaliberal Oct 2017 #12
I am a vet former9thward Oct 2017 #23
I said when it was written there were only guns that fired 1 bullet at a time the founders never onecaliberal Oct 2017 #34
And when the 1st was written they used quills. Man_Bear_Pig Oct 2017 #11
You can't "use a file" to convert a gun to full auto Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #16
You didn't read my post did you? former9thward Oct 2017 #25
I did- your wrong Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #28
Again, I am not going to teach you how to do that. former9thward Oct 2017 #35
No, because you cant. It's a lie Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #36
He's saying that the BATFE inspects gun designs prior to allowing them on the market to be sure JoeStuckInOH Oct 2017 #30
You can ban slide stocks but you can't fully ban bump fire Kaleva Oct 2017 #6
If you really want to reduce gun related deaths, ban/control handguns TexasBushwhacker Oct 2017 #8
Just rename them to "Trump Stocks"! Kleveland Oct 2017 #9
They were approved by the ATF in June, 2010. former9thward Oct 2017 #27
False binary reasoning. Or total lack of reasoning. Thor_MN Oct 2017 #10
Banning bump stocks ALONE won't solve the problem. That is true. better Oct 2017 #13
Assinine and very dishonest. It'd solve bump stocks. Hortensis Oct 2017 #14
Bump stocks are only effective when used in conjunction with high capacity magazines Kaleva Oct 2017 #20
The author is wrong sarisataka Oct 2017 #15
Other fabulous rapid-fire gizmos are also available for the true hunter! Kleveland Oct 2017 #18
Then why do we have to take off our shoes before getting on a plane? Yavin4 Oct 2017 #19
Well, not everyone can duck as fast as George Dubbya! Kleveland Oct 2017 #21
Wow - he was doing so well till he related jmg257 Oct 2017 #22
I think you are describing the problem. They are popular because they kill efficiently. Gunners like Hoyt Oct 2017 #32
Exactly. Reliable, affordable, effective...with some glamour jmg257 Oct 2017 #33
No, gun-humpers have sought the latest lethal device. They are sick people. Hoyt Oct 2017 #37
Ha - yep - best bang for their bucks! jmg257 Oct 2017 #39
No it will just empower the racists and conspiracy theorists. Initech Oct 2017 #24
Full repeal of the 2A is the only way to go. GeorgeGist Oct 2017 #26
NEVER going to happen! Kleveland Oct 2017 #31
They should not be legal. Weekend Warrior Oct 2017 #29
So true. Christ, at least cigarette companies added filters. Hoyt Oct 2017 #38
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
2. Simple, the gun-humpers irrationally want/need them and politicians don't have the guts to say "No."
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 10:26 AM
Oct 2017

Yavin4

(35,446 posts)
17. Pols need their votes in order to pass tax cuts for the rich
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:04 PM
Oct 2017

So, they let the gun humpers have military grade weapons and the 1% don't have to bear their fair share of the fiscal burden. Win/win.

onecaliberal

(32,916 posts)
3. It will solve the problem of allowing a semi auto gun to essentially become an automatic weapon.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 10:39 AM
Oct 2017

There is zero reason for average Americans to own these. The crazies who would like to take out the American military need to be addressed. The guns imagined by the founders were capable of shooting 1 bullet at a time. The madness has the stop.

former9thward

(32,093 posts)
4. It will not solve that problem.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 10:56 AM
Oct 2017

Anyone who is familiar with a semi-auto gun knows, or could know, how to use a file to convert to full auto. It is not legal but someone willing to take out hundreds of people and die in the process does not care what is legal or illegal.

Do you really want all of the Bill of Rights based on what the founders were capable of imagining? Or just the amendments you don't like?

onecaliberal

(32,916 posts)
5. I know every other civilized nation does not have this problem because they have common sense
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:16 AM
Oct 2017

Gun control. Period. You are NEVER going to convince me that more guns and more attachments meant for maximum carnage will make this country safe. People who want to use these things should join the military and put their money where their mouths are.

When the second amendment was written guns fired one bullet at a time, stop putting words in my mouth, I'm stating a fact.

former9thward

(32,093 posts)
7. When the first amendment was written printing presses were operated by hand.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:31 AM
Oct 2017

And the literacy rate was low. So I guess we should use those facts when figuring out what the first amendment means now....

onecaliberal

(32,916 posts)
12. Yes because we all know printing presses are capable of mass carnage. Stop changing the subject.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:48 AM
Oct 2017

Folks with your point of view never address gun violence facts. I am entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which means I should have a reasonable expectation to go out in public without warning worrying that some nut job with access to war weapons can mow down lots of people in 1 fell swoop.
JOIN.THE.MILITARY.

former9thward

(32,093 posts)
23. I am a vet
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:31 PM
Oct 2017

Air Force 1986-1990. Which means nothing about the 2nd amendment. I am not changing the subject. You were the one who said what the original intent of the 2nd amendment was in your view. Its wrong but you brought it up.

onecaliberal

(32,916 posts)
34. I said when it was written there were only guns that fired 1 bullet at a time the founders never
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 02:05 PM
Oct 2017

could have imagined these weapons. Your argument doesn't hold water. My dad was in WWII, he was an avid hunter. He was against any of these weapons being in the hands of regular people. I'm done responding to your deflections. Enjoy the dust bin.

 

Man_Bear_Pig

(89 posts)
11. And when the 1st was written they used quills.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:48 AM
Oct 2017

Last edited Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Yes I know, I know, "how many people does the first kill?" But that isn't how the reasoning works. You can't view one part of the Bill of Rights as only applying to then, but not the other parts without being a hypocrite.

All these states legalizing weed in the face of federal law sets a precedent of picking and choosing which federal laws to obey or not. So how will you react when a state ignores a federal assault weapon ban and keeps making and selling them? If one side can ignore federal law, so can the other side; unless you can come up with a set of rules, that make sense, detailing how states can know which federal laws they can ignore.

Same situation as playing games with which right applies now and which applies only back then.

Edit:

Just in case you jump to conclusions. I'm for legalizing weed, all drugs really, I'm merely using that as an example of ignoring federal law; which gives the other side a way to justify ignoring federal law.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
16. You can't "use a file" to convert a gun to full auto
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:01 PM
Oct 2017

Anything that can be so easily converted won't get BATFE approval for sale.

former9thward

(32,093 posts)
25. You didn't read my post did you?
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:34 PM
Oct 2017

I said it would be ILLEGAL. But you can do it. Do you really think someone who is willing to die to do something cares about what is legal to the BATFE? If you don't know how to do it, that's fine. I am certainly not going to teach you.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
28. I did- your wrong
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 01:01 PM
Oct 2017

Converting one is far more complicated than "using a file".

If a firearm could be converted with just a file it would never get BATF approval for sale.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
36. No, because you cant. It's a lie
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 03:28 PM
Oct 2017

Your repeating nonsense you have heard.

Converting a legal semi-auto firearm to full auto requires modification of the receiver that involves machining and precision drilling and the changing or addition of parts.

It's not "filing down some parts"

The only thing you can do with a file is possibly screw up your sear or disconnector and cause it to malfunction and run away to where it is uncontrollable and worn stop firing when the trigger is released- but that is not converting to full auto that's damaging parts to make them malfunction and be uncontrollable. The BATF won't consider that a machine gun it's considered a malfunctioning trigger system.

You cannot "convert to full auto" with a file. Period. Anyone who says you can is simply a liar or a fool repeating crap they heard from someone else and not smart enough to know it's crap or verify if it's accurate before repeating it.

 

JoeStuckInOH

(544 posts)
30. He's saying that the BATFE inspects gun designs prior to allowing them on the market to be sure
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 01:21 PM
Oct 2017

they cannot be so easily converted to full auto (ie: with a simple file).

Most firearms require additional machining to the receivers and/or the incorporation of regulated components only found in actual full autos (selector switches, auto-sears, bolts and trigger components). A hypothetical gun that only required filing down a disconnector or bolt catch would be classified not legal for sale by the ATF. Google about "open-bolt semi autos" and you'll see these gun designs were discontinued long ago and phased out by the ATF because they COULD be converted to full with just a file.

Things like bump stocks allow an otherwise completely legal semi-auto (and not just AR5 assault rifles; but PTRs, but AKs, SKSs, and even simple .22LR plinker rifles) to operate like full autos. Absolutely no reason to keep these products on the market.

Kaleva

(36,356 posts)
6. You can ban slide stocks but you can't fully ban bump fire
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:26 AM
Oct 2017

Slide stocks are a device while bump fire is a technique.

TexasBushwhacker

(20,220 posts)
8. If you really want to reduce gun related deaths, ban/control handguns
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:44 AM
Oct 2017

Mass shootings with semi-automatic rifles get a lot of attention but most firearm deaths - murders, suicides and accidental shootings - are made by handguns, not rifles or shotguns. Over 68%.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/06/fbi-homicide-data-by-weapon.html

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
10. False binary reasoning. Or total lack of reasoning.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:48 AM
Oct 2017

It won't do any good because the author associates it with military service? WTF?

There is no legitimate need for these devices. Banning them raises the bar to achieve the effect of a full auto weapon. Just because it can't completely prevent someone from spraying a crowd with bullets doesn't mean it is not worth doing. Almost anything that makes it harder is worthwhile.

One standard conservative approach is to claim that if something can't solve 100% of the problem, it's no good. Partial solutions ARE common sense solutions that can reduce deaths in, if not mass shootings themselves. Is the adrenaline rush that some people get spraying bullets into an abandoned washing machine worth raising death tolls?

better

(884 posts)
13. Banning bump stocks ALONE won't solve the problem. That is true.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:53 AM
Oct 2017

But banning bump stocks, along with any other modification that increases the rate of fire beyond the speed at which a human can depress a trigger, very well might make a difference, especially if the other relevant factor is also addressed.

That other relevant factor is capacity. A bump fire device, or any other device that makes a weapon fire something like 600-900 rounds per minute instead of 45-60, is of very limited use when the weapon holds so few rounds that firing at such a rate means reloading literally every second, because the weapon fires more rounds per second than it holds.

And to reiterate what I've said in other threads about how and why laws intended to regulate rifles descendant from military designs can and do go awry, consider that this rifle is, under both current NY law and the most recently proposed iteration of an AWB, considered an assault weapon, even with only a 10 round capacity, and chambered in .22lr...



And the only reason that is true is because when lawmakers crafted language intended to prevent civilians from owning this...




...they banned "semi-automatic weapons having detachable magazine and one or more of: " {a list of characteristics including a thumbhole stock}.

Someone being dead set on owning something like that second rifle might reasonably raise some legitimate concerns.
Someone being defensive of the right to own the first one has entirely different implications.

What reasonable gun owners want is for it to remain legal to own things like that nice steel and walnut target/varmint rifle, limited to 10 round capacity, whether or not it has a hole for your thumb. If we would identify the things we want to ban well enough that we don't also ban things we're not trying to, the opposition would decrease significantly.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
14. Assinine and very dishonest. It'd solve bump stocks.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:55 AM
Oct 2017

Note that this is an OPINION piece. You won't see articles in the NYT insisting every single law is worthless because that law can't solve everything.

Now, a number of laws controlling different aspects of gun ownership would have a tremendous effect. Each would chip away at the numbers murdered and together bring them down to the lowest range a society that allows gun ownership can have.
Comprehensive background checks for purchases
Waiting periods.
Bump stocks.
A half dozen others, each with its own contribution, like Obama's one not allowing mentally incompetent people to own.

One would think the last was a no-brainer, but I'm guessing not this author. It wouldn't "solve the problem."

Kaleva

(36,356 posts)
20. Bump stocks are only effective when used in conjunction with high capacity magazines
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:13 PM
Oct 2017

Otherwise they are a waste of time and money.

sarisataka

(18,792 posts)
15. The author is wrong
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 11:56 AM
Oct 2017

The bump fire stock does alter how a weapon works, albeit with an external, rather than internal part

Kleveland

(1,257 posts)
18. Other fabulous rapid-fire gizmos are also available for the true hunter!
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:04 PM
Oct 2017


https://basspro.scene7.com/is/image/BassPro/1914761_12042605030917

This clamps onto the trigger guard of a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic rifle.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/BMF-Activator-325651661702/about/

Fortunately, the native capacity of the rifle's magazine is 10 rounds.

Ooops! I might want a 110 round magazine!



Very useful for hunting! <not>

Now, all we need is for some creative person to put a battery powered motor on the BMF activator!

Yavin4

(35,446 posts)
19. Then why do we have to take off our shoes before getting on a plane?
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:13 PM
Oct 2017

That won't stop terrorism on planes.

Kleveland

(1,257 posts)
21. Well, not everyone can duck as fast as George Dubbya!
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:19 PM
Oct 2017

I would not want to be hit with a terrorist's Skecher!

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
22. Wow - he was doing so well till he related
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:20 PM
Oct 2017

ARs to hunting. Though many would function just fine as such, really do not think that's why they are so popular.


Not for nothing, most people alive today have much more 'exposure' to M16s/ARs then more traditional arms....they've been in use for over 50 years. Tough to argue with the attraction of proven technology of 1 of the most numerous arms in the world. Everyone makes em so affordable, ammo and accessories readily available and so cheap.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
32. I think you are describing the problem. They are popular because they kill efficiently. Gunners like
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 01:49 PM
Oct 2017

that capability, even if they currently aren't intent on killing anyone.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
33. Exactly. Reliable, affordable, effective...with some glamour
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 01:55 PM
Oct 2017

And history.
A few decades ago it might be the M1 Garand and M14 styles. Civilians have often followed the military in caliber and gun choice.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
39. Ha - yep - best bang for their bucks!
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 10:35 PM
Oct 2017

Why waste money on unreliable gack (especially if you think ur life may depend on it).

Kleveland

(1,257 posts)
31. NEVER going to happen!
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 01:36 PM
Oct 2017

Let us not forget, the legislative and RW asshats cherry-pick our constitutional rights, just as much as they do passages from the Bible.

They may want to kill a lot of our rights and beliefs, but they also will maintain and twist those which they can spin to their own narrow minded totalitarian agenda. Phrases out of context can produce ignorant and dangerous points of view.

Both the Bible and our Constitution contain countless and enlightened words of wisdom.

But pearls before swine also have the usual and expected results.

Those who have "eyes" can see.



 

Weekend Warrior

(1,301 posts)
29. They should not be legal.
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 01:12 PM
Oct 2017

It’s that simple.

We need to remove the special legal protection afforded to gun manufacturers. They should have never had them in the first place. Gun manufacturers know there are bump stocks out there, do little to nothing when it comes to making them more difficult to add, and we should be able to hold them accountable.

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