General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBanning Bump Stocks Wont Solve Anything
Whenever the N.R.A. embraces a gun-control measure, its worth looking further under the hood. And, in fact, a ban on bump stocks falls into the same trap as so many previous attempts at sensible gun control have it treats a symptom, but not the disease. As with the assault-weapons ban, its not how the gun looks that matters; its how it works.
While the Las Vegas massacre was remarkable for its spree of fire, it fit a pattern: Many mass shootings involve rifles designed for automatic fire for the military, the design of which has then been modified to operate as legal, semiautomatic weapons for the civilian market the AR-15, related to the militarys M-16, being the most famous, but not the only, example.
Civilian ownership of machine guns, which fire continuously as long as the trigger is pulled, has been restricted in the United States since 1934. But their semiautomatic equivalents, which fire just once with each pull of the trigger but to a casual observer look no different from the military versions, have become wildly popular. At my local gun store Thursday, there were as many semiautomatic, military-style weapons as anything; indeed, more than traditional deer-hunting guns shaped from steel and walnut. A beautiful Brazilian over-and-under shotgun-rifle combination sat in a corner, underpriced and apparently unloved. (I personally dont understand it; having been issued an M-16 by Uncle Sam in the summer of 1983, I cannot think of another firearm Id less like to lug into the woods on the first day of hunting season.)
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opinion/banning-bump-stocks-wont-solve-anything.html
SHRED
(28,136 posts)That is the question.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Yavin4
(35,446 posts)So, they let the gun humpers have military grade weapons and the 1% don't have to bear their fair share of the fiscal burden. Win/win.
onecaliberal
(32,916 posts)There is zero reason for average Americans to own these. The crazies who would like to take out the American military need to be addressed. The guns imagined by the founders were capable of shooting 1 bullet at a time. The madness has the stop.
former9thward
(32,093 posts)Anyone who is familiar with a semi-auto gun knows, or could know, how to use a file to convert to full auto. It is not legal but someone willing to take out hundreds of people and die in the process does not care what is legal or illegal.
Do you really want all of the Bill of Rights based on what the founders were capable of imagining? Or just the amendments you don't like?
onecaliberal
(32,916 posts)Gun control. Period. You are NEVER going to convince me that more guns and more attachments meant for maximum carnage will make this country safe. People who want to use these things should join the military and put their money where their mouths are.
When the second amendment was written guns fired one bullet at a time, stop putting words in my mouth, I'm stating a fact.
former9thward
(32,093 posts)And the literacy rate was low. So I guess we should use those facts when figuring out what the first amendment means now....
onecaliberal
(32,916 posts)Folks with your point of view never address gun violence facts. I am entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which means I should have a reasonable expectation to go out in public without warning worrying that some nut job with access to war weapons can mow down lots of people in 1 fell swoop.
JOIN.THE.MILITARY.
former9thward
(32,093 posts)Air Force 1986-1990. Which means nothing about the 2nd amendment. I am not changing the subject. You were the one who said what the original intent of the 2nd amendment was in your view. Its wrong but you brought it up.
onecaliberal
(32,916 posts)could have imagined these weapons. Your argument doesn't hold water. My dad was in WWII, he was an avid hunter. He was against any of these weapons being in the hands of regular people. I'm done responding to your deflections. Enjoy the dust bin.
Man_Bear_Pig
(89 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 7, 2017, 12:34 PM - Edit history (1)
Yes I know, I know, "how many people does the first kill?" But that isn't how the reasoning works. You can't view one part of the Bill of Rights as only applying to then, but not the other parts without being a hypocrite.
All these states legalizing weed in the face of federal law sets a precedent of picking and choosing which federal laws to obey or not. So how will you react when a state ignores a federal assault weapon ban and keeps making and selling them? If one side can ignore federal law, so can the other side; unless you can come up with a set of rules, that make sense, detailing how states can know which federal laws they can ignore.
Same situation as playing games with which right applies now and which applies only back then.
Edit:
Just in case you jump to conclusions. I'm for legalizing weed, all drugs really, I'm merely using that as an example of ignoring federal law; which gives the other side a way to justify ignoring federal law.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Anything that can be so easily converted won't get BATFE approval for sale.
former9thward
(32,093 posts)I said it would be ILLEGAL. But you can do it. Do you really think someone who is willing to die to do something cares about what is legal to the BATFE? If you don't know how to do it, that's fine. I am certainly not going to teach you.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Converting one is far more complicated than "using a file".
If a firearm could be converted with just a file it would never get BATF approval for sale.
former9thward
(32,093 posts)You are clearly trying to bait me to do that.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Your repeating nonsense you have heard.
Converting a legal semi-auto firearm to full auto requires modification of the receiver that involves machining and precision drilling and the changing or addition of parts.
It's not "filing down some parts"
The only thing you can do with a file is possibly screw up your sear or disconnector and cause it to malfunction and run away to where it is uncontrollable and worn stop firing when the trigger is released- but that is not converting to full auto that's damaging parts to make them malfunction and be uncontrollable. The BATF won't consider that a machine gun it's considered a malfunctioning trigger system.
You cannot "convert to full auto" with a file. Period. Anyone who says you can is simply a liar or a fool repeating crap they heard from someone else and not smart enough to know it's crap or verify if it's accurate before repeating it.
JoeStuckInOH
(544 posts)they cannot be so easily converted to full auto (ie: with a simple file).
Most firearms require additional machining to the receivers and/or the incorporation of regulated components only found in actual full autos (selector switches, auto-sears, bolts and trigger components). A hypothetical gun that only required filing down a disconnector or bolt catch would be classified not legal for sale by the ATF. Google about "open-bolt semi autos" and you'll see these gun designs were discontinued long ago and phased out by the ATF because they COULD be converted to full with just a file.
Things like bump stocks allow an otherwise completely legal semi-auto (and not just AR5 assault rifles; but PTRs, but AKs, SKSs, and even simple .22LR plinker rifles) to operate like full autos. Absolutely no reason to keep these products on the market.
Kaleva
(36,356 posts)Slide stocks are a device while bump fire is a technique.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,220 posts)Mass shootings with semi-automatic rifles get a lot of attention but most firearm deaths - murders, suicides and accidental shootings - are made by handguns, not rifles or shotguns. Over 68%.
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/06/fbi-homicide-data-by-weapon.html
Kleveland
(1,257 posts)Problem solved!
former9thward
(32,093 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)It won't do any good because the author associates it with military service? WTF?
There is no legitimate need for these devices. Banning them raises the bar to achieve the effect of a full auto weapon. Just because it can't completely prevent someone from spraying a crowd with bullets doesn't mean it is not worth doing. Almost anything that makes it harder is worthwhile.
One standard conservative approach is to claim that if something can't solve 100% of the problem, it's no good. Partial solutions ARE common sense solutions that can reduce deaths in, if not mass shootings themselves. Is the adrenaline rush that some people get spraying bullets into an abandoned washing machine worth raising death tolls?
better
(884 posts)But banning bump stocks, along with any other modification that increases the rate of fire beyond the speed at which a human can depress a trigger, very well might make a difference, especially if the other relevant factor is also addressed.
That other relevant factor is capacity. A bump fire device, or any other device that makes a weapon fire something like 600-900 rounds per minute instead of 45-60, is of very limited use when the weapon holds so few rounds that firing at such a rate means reloading literally every second, because the weapon fires more rounds per second than it holds.
And to reiterate what I've said in other threads about how and why laws intended to regulate rifles descendant from military designs can and do go awry, consider that this rifle is, under both current NY law and the most recently proposed iteration of an AWB, considered an assault weapon, even with only a 10 round capacity, and chambered in .22lr...
And the only reason that is true is because when lawmakers crafted language intended to prevent civilians from owning this...
...they banned "semi-automatic weapons having detachable magazine and one or more of: " {a list of characteristics including a thumbhole stock}.
Someone being dead set on owning something like that second rifle might reasonably raise some legitimate concerns.
Someone being defensive of the right to own the first one has entirely different implications.
What reasonable gun owners want is for it to remain legal to own things like that nice steel and walnut target/varmint rifle, limited to 10 round capacity, whether or not it has a hole for your thumb. If we would identify the things we want to ban well enough that we don't also ban things we're not trying to, the opposition would decrease significantly.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Note that this is an OPINION piece. You won't see articles in the NYT insisting every single law is worthless because that law can't solve everything.
Now, a number of laws controlling different aspects of gun ownership would have a tremendous effect. Each would chip away at the numbers murdered and together bring them down to the lowest range a society that allows gun ownership can have.
Comprehensive background checks for purchases
Waiting periods.
Bump stocks.
A half dozen others, each with its own contribution, like Obama's one not allowing mentally incompetent people to own.
One would think the last was a no-brainer, but I'm guessing not this author. It wouldn't "solve the problem."
Kaleva
(36,356 posts)Otherwise they are a waste of time and money.
sarisataka
(18,792 posts)The bump fire stock does alter how a weapon works, albeit with an external, rather than internal part
Kleveland
(1,257 posts)https://basspro.scene7.com/is/image/BassPro/1914761_12042605030917
This clamps onto the trigger guard of a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic rifle.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/BMF-Activator-325651661702/about/
Fortunately, the native capacity of the rifle's magazine is 10 rounds.
Ooops! I might want a 110 round magazine!
Very useful for hunting! <not>
Now, all we need is for some creative person to put a battery powered motor on the BMF activator!
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)That won't stop terrorism on planes.
Kleveland
(1,257 posts)I would not want to be hit with a terrorist's Skecher!
jmg257
(11,996 posts)ARs to hunting. Though many would function just fine as such, really do not think that's why they are so popular.
Not for nothing, most people alive today have much more 'exposure' to M16s/ARs then more traditional arms....they've been in use for over 50 years. Tough to argue with the attraction of proven technology of 1 of the most numerous arms in the world. Everyone makes em so affordable, ammo and accessories readily available and so cheap.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)that capability, even if they currently aren't intent on killing anyone.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)And history.
A few decades ago it might be the M1 Garand and M14 styles. Civilians have often followed the military in caliber and gun choice.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)Why waste money on unreliable gack (especially if you think ur life may depend on it).
Initech
(100,107 posts)And then it will solve nothing.
GeorgeGist
(25,324 posts)Kleveland
(1,257 posts)Let us not forget, the legislative and RW asshats cherry-pick our constitutional rights, just as much as they do passages from the Bible.
They may want to kill a lot of our rights and beliefs, but they also will maintain and twist those which they can spin to their own narrow minded totalitarian agenda. Phrases out of context can produce ignorant and dangerous points of view.
Both the Bible and our Constitution contain countless and enlightened words of wisdom.
But pearls before swine also have the usual and expected results.
Those who have "eyes" can see.
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)Its that simple.
We need to remove the special legal protection afforded to gun manufacturers. They should have never had them in the first place. Gun manufacturers know there are bump stocks out there, do little to nothing when it comes to making them more difficult to add, and we should be able to hold them accountable.