The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits dishonorably discharged vets from owning firearms

[Kaleva]

"d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions"

"g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

[RandySF]

1. As the result of a court martial.

[Nevernose]

2. If only background checks were mandatory

And there were mandatory state and federal firearms databases...

How many shootings every single day would be prevented? How many flags for straw buyers would fly up? How many people would become reluctant to sell their AK to Jimmy down the block because there just might be blowback?

The laws and regulations we have in place now are inadequate for public safety. They serve only to promote the profits of gun and gun accessory manufacturers.

[Kaleva]

4. Whoever sold him the gun(s) is in deep shit.

[doc03]

5. Not if he didn't know he couldn't own one. If you knew he was a convicted fellon

or someone told you he was you could be in trouble. What you don't know can't hurt you.

[Kaleva]

12. That person or persons are going to be facing vigorous questioning.

Lawyer fees will be expensive.

[doc03]

15. There are no laws about private sales here as far as I ever heard. I put an

ad in the classifieds I can sell it to anyone as long as I don't know he can't own it.

[Kaleva]

19. I'm pretty sure the authorities will try hard to determine if sellers knew guy couldn't own.

Which means they'll be brought in for questioning, maybe several times, and the seller(s) would be wise to have an attorney with them and that costs money.

Now, if he had bought the guns prior to getting the dishonorable discharge, the sellers are in the clear.

[doc03]

25. If he bought it from a private party how would they know who sold it to him?

The private party may have bought it used from another private owner, it could have traded hands a
dozen times.

[SoCalMusicLover]

21. Oh No!! Lawyer Fees!!

Meanwhile 27 innocent people are dead.

I'm sure someone will get a slap on the wrist, after all, this is America, land of the gun.

[Nevernose]

10. Not in TX, or most states

Assuming the sale was person to person.

There's no background check on those (the infamous "gun show loophole" ), nor are they mandatory, nor are there penalties for negligence.

Even if there WERE, it becomes impossible to keep track of unless there's also a computerized registry maintained at least at the state level. It's not even unconstitutional. Newspapers have to have licenses, pay taxes, register their reporters as press, etc; churches have all kinds of equally onerous paperwork. We don't do that for people who want to own a hundred machine guns, though, or sell a thousand Glocks to teenagers in Baltimore.

[Kaleva]

13. Federal law applies here

[doc03]

17. Law? What law? nt

[Kaleva]

20. The Gun Control Act of 1968

[doc03]

27. Don't apply to private sales. You are selling stolen guns on the street

to known criminals you would be in big trouble. You go to a gun show with your AR and a person asked you
what you want and he gives you the cash no problem unless he tells you he needs it to kill a bunch of people.

[Kaleva]

30. Yes, it does apply to private sales.

"d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

I'll go back to what I said earlier. The seller or sellers are in deep shit and are going to be questioned vigorously and lawyer fees will add up. They may not be charged, if they can convince the investigators he or they did not know that it was illegal for the man to posses firearms, but I would not want to be in their shoes right now.

[doc03]

34. How would they know you sold it to him in the first place unless someone

told them? Serial numbers aren't recorded on private sales. Like I said if I had no idea the guy
wasn't a model citizen it is perfectly legal. I would stand a better chance of getting in trouble selling beer to a minor.

[Kaleva]

37. I beg to differ

The gun was used in a church massacre. The youngest victim was 5 years old. This is a much bigger deal then selling beer to a minor and I for one would not want to be brought in for questioning and it got out in the news that it was me that sold the gun to the shooter even if it was legal for me to do so.

I think the debate is moot anyhow as other posters commented that the shooter had a BCD which would not prevent him from possessing firearms.

Edit: But it appears he got the BCD for a domestic violence conviction which would prohibit him from possessing firearms under the Lautenberg Amendment.

[Nevernose]

22. Only states can require background checks

So in Texas, unless you're a licensed, professional firearms dealer, it's not (effectively) illegal for you to sell a gun to a guy who's dishonorably discharged. (Assuming the government can't prove you knew beyond a reasonable doubt that the buyer was dishonorably discharged.) Even if this guy WAS dishonorably discharged, who's to say that's what he told anyone? I've never known anyone to volunteer that information without some prompting.

The onus is almost entirely on the purchaser in such cases, not the seller. Not in person-to-person sales. The seller is not required to run any sort of background check on the purchaser.

"Sorry. Didn't know he wasn't allowed." That's the usually same as "not guilty."

[Kaleva]

32. According to federal law, it's illegal to sell or transfer a gun...

to someone who you know or suspect may not legally posses a gun

[Nevernose]

33. Exactly! You get it!

The laws/regulations we currently have in place are totally inadequate for today's world.

That standard -- "know or suspect" -- is pretty low. So low, in fact, that without a background check it's totally meaningless.

[doc03]

3. He can still obtain one a easy as buying a quart of milk. You can legaly sell

one to anyone as long as you don't know they are prohibited from owning one.

[Sailor65x1]

8. Not quite that simple

You still can't sell to anyone who doesnt get a "Proceed" from NICS. i doubt this guy cleared NICS.

[doc03]

9. I don't know where you live but that isn't so here. I am talking about a

private sale.

[Sailor65x1]

14. I was speaking of a sale done legally through a shop

I agree with you about private sale, which I placed in the category of not legal.

[doc03]

16. Private sale is legal nt

[Drunken Irishman]

28. Yup. Legal and easy ... left to the seller's discretion.

[Hoyt]

29. You ever sold one of your guns to someone without a background check?

In most states you don't have to do it in a back alley or anything. It's legal to rent a table at a gun show as long as you don't do it often enough to be deemed a dealer. Lot's of guns are sold in parking lots, or through knowing an unconscionable person who knows someone willing to make a few extra bucks by avoiding background checks. It's pretty easy.

[doc03]

36. Just walk around a gun show with a gun and you will get offers for it nt

[roamer65]

43. New law.

ALL firearm sales/transfers MUST take place through a person with a Federal Firearms License.

ALL guns. Period.

If you don’t, it should be a felony.

[Hoyt]

44. I agree. In the past, gunners have whined about cost and inconvenience of doing that.

I laugh every time I hear that and similar BS. If there were "responsible gun owners," like they want us to believe, gunners would be behind this.

[Hoyt]

6. Obviously, someone didn't check or didn't care about his discharge.

I guess the database could be defective, but that's probably gunners and GOPers' fault.

Hope they find whoever transferred these weapons to Kelley.

[Igel]

23. If he got a DD.

Problem is, just like with using the term "assault rifle," people who don't know or care about the distinction between terms views quibbling over details petty and demeaning.

"So what if it's an assault rifle or assault weapon, people still died!" they scream. Because if they get the term wrong somehow they must be thought less of.

Same here. Was it a dishonorable discharge after a court martial that found him guilty? Discharge under less than honorable circumstances after he wasn't found guilty? Plea deal? What?

Details, details.

Point is, people use terms loosely and without precision then insist on the utmost of precision in applying technicalities in interpreting their loosely used terminology. When it suits them.

[jmowreader]

41. BCD after court-martial

https://www.thedailybeast.com/devin-patrick-kelley-idd-as-sutherland-springs-church-killer

He assaulted his wife and child, which got him a bad conduct discharge, 12 months in the stockade and reduction to the lowest enlisted grade.

[Sailor65x1]

7. DD is covered on the form 4473

And NICS has the information in the database. It's doubtful the sale was legal.

[roamer65]

11. Has it been confirmed he was a DD yet?

Sounds like the military is being tight lipped about his status last I read.

[roamer65]

18. He received a bad conduct discharge.

Just now per MSNBC.

[The_Casual_Observer]

24. Any sort of shithead can buy any sort of gun in the USA

There are more guns for sale than people to buy them.
The asshole that killed all those people could buy a thousand of them if he had the money.

The people in charge don't give a shit what happened to those people in texas, it all goes away after "thoughts and prayers".

[sl8]

26. Daily Beast is reporting that he got out on a Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD)

From https://www.thedailybeast.com/devin-patrick-kelley-idd-as-sutherland-springs-church-killer :

Sutherland Springs Church Killer Was Kicked Out of Air Force for ‘Bad Conduct’
Before he killed 26 people, Devin Kelley was sentenced to confinement and discharged from the military. Last week, he ominously showed off an assault rifle on Facebook.

KELLY WEILL
KATIE ZAVADSKI
JAMES LAPORTA
JANA WINTER
SARAH BERTNESS
MATT BRISCOE
11.05.17 5:47 PM ET
...

Kelley was discharged from the Air Force in 2014, according to Defense Department records. Kelley was court martialed in November 2012 and a judge sentenced him with a bad-conduct discharge, 12 months confinement, and two reductions in rank to basic airman, according to an appeals court decision in 2013 that affirmed the decision against Kelley.

...

[Kaleva]

35. So the shooter could own weapons then.

[roamer65]

38. His special court martial conviction was for domestic violence.

Last edited Mon Nov 6, 2017, 12:02 AM - Edit history (1)

It would translate to either misdemeanor or felony DV in civilian courts, which end gun ownership rights.

So either:

1. He owned the gun before the conviction and did not turn it in as required.
2. Someone in government screwed up and did not process the conviction correctly.

OR

3. A gun owner or shop did not do their due diligence on a background check.


If it is number 3, then should be a lesson to ALL gun owners. You should always sell/transfer a firearm through a person with an active FFL. No direct private sales. No exceptions!

[Kaleva]

39. So the Lautenberg Amendment applies here.

[roamer65]

40. Yes.

[Not Ruth]

31. The shooter probably knew that he was not allowed

[roamer65]

42. Col. Jack Jacobs on MSNBC said this guys BCD was equivalent to a felony.