I don't know if I'm a devil or an angel around here right now.

[Tobin S.]

But here is something I've been looking at for a little while now. Hear me out please. Make sure you read through to the end. There are a lot of people who simply don't vote because they feel like they've been left behind on economic issues. The huge disparity in income stratification we have in this country is a very big problem. Along with climate change, this should be one of the biggest issues in America right now. There are wealthy and powerful Democrats who've been talking about this for a while: Robert Reich and Nick Hanauer to name a couple. Some very wealthy people are actually calling on us to tax them more right now, because they know this is getting out of hand. And when income stratification gets out of hand you start to get political instability. You start to get shit like Trump. It's not just for the benefit of the rest of us that some of these rich people are talking like this. It's also enlightened self interest.

This wonderful diversity we have going on in the party with minorities starting to claim a bigger stake in the political process is ultimately good for everyone. But for many Americans those just aren't their kind of issues. Nothing wrong with that stuff, but for low income straight white people, for example, it simply doesn't help them where they need help the most. So if you continue in that direction without addressing the issue of economic security and social policy that helps poor and working class people in every demographic, it's really not something you can build a long term strategy on for continued success into the future. It's good, but we need to address these economic issues along with that stuff. The issue should be front and center.

One third of the population living in poverty. Poor and working class people from all demographics making up the majority of the population. The middle class shrinking and people continually falling out of it. Even upper middle class people are not completely economically secure if they happen to develop a severe medical issue. These things absolutely have to be addressed or this country is just going to keep getting crazier.

The victories earlier this week are a welcome and refreshing sign. I also know that powerful people in the Democratic Party are aware of the problems I just spoke of, and want to address them. In my view, if the politicians we have keep speaking on these economic issues, more and more people will start to come back around to the Democratic Party. I want to urge you guys not to demonize ordinary people in any demographic including Trump supporters anywhere the Democratic Party is represented, including DU. I know I've done it, too, and I'm here to tell you that was wrong. It might make you guys feel better, but it ultimately doesn't help anyone, and actually hurts your cause. It's okay to cut down the regressive politicians, but work to lift the people up. Working class white men should be allies of working class black men. Most of them understand that. They really do. Some of them might not be up to par on your social issues, but when it comes to poverty and economic hardship they understand completely.

One of the most important lessons of Obama was that when he spoke of the American people he always spoke inclusively. He did his best to make it clear to us all that he valued every one of us whether we agreed with him or not. He was a true man of the people. He never cut down ordinary Americans even when it was clear about how hated he was by some of them. He is a shining example of what a Democrat should be. He served two terms despite the fact that the most powerful and wealthy people in America were working their hardest to defeat him, and despite the incredible gridlock his last 6 years in office. He won my home state of Indiana in the election for his first term. Yeah, lots to learn from Obama.

In my sig line you'll see a quote from Obama on what is my most important issue: climate change. I put that one ahead of everything including the issues that benefit me in a more selfish way. I deeply admire Obama. I'm 45 years old and he is clearly the best president of my lifetime even though he was hamstrung by Congress for most of his time in office. I'm a working class white man.

When I came out here with that thread the other day about how I felt you guys were slandering and scapegoating working class white men, that didn't come out of nowhere. It's been festering a long time. Then when I called you guys on it, over the first hour the thread was up it looked to me as if you guys had this impression that the Fourth Reich was coming for you guys and it was comprised of working class white men who had allegedly given you Trump. It was very painful, and after I exited that thread with my last comment in it, I haven't been able to go back and look in it even though it got all kinds of recs and ended up on the front page.

So one last time before I let it go. It looks like 33% of Trump voters were working class. Not all of them were men, of course. I don't know the stats for Hillary in that category, but I'm sure there's a significant amount of working class white men who voted for her, including me. Then when you consider that 40% of eligible voters didn't vote in that election, most of them probably poor and working class people...well, the working class white man Fourth Reich doesn't look like it's taken hold quite as strong as some of you might have been thinking, or gave me the impression that you were thinking.

Poor and working class white people have been maligned for a long time in this country by powerful, rich, and famous people. There are some incredibly offensive stereotypes about them that freely get floated around the internet and popular culture, that if they were said about any other group of people in this country by someone in the public eye it would permanently damage their reputation. But it gets a pass when they do it to us. I'll go get an example of it if you want me to that was generated by a wealthy east coast Democrat. When I see stuff like that, and I see it a lot, it hurts my confidence in you guys. The people on the right do it, too. Do you think Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable Guy are doing us any favors? Do you know who is in the audience at their Blue Collar Comedy shows? It's not people like me. Even if I wanted to go I can't the free time or the cash together for a ticket. Those are caricatures that they present in their shows. They are not accurate representations of who poor and working class people are. But these guys got rich on us talking that shit at our expense. You might see working class guys who like them and think they are funny. It's in the same category of a thing like women voting for Trump.

Poor and working class white people are essentially powerless just like any other demographic in that income category, and they continually get hammered by social and economic forces. It's not something to be taken lightly and made fun of, and it certainly isn't their fault- even if some of them are so confused by what's going in the world that they'll vote for a Republican. These people are not your enemies, and they need your representation even if you don't get their vote. Obama knew that quite clearly. And being the most powerful man on the planet he had the kindness and compassion not to punch down on people even if they didn't support him, unlike some other guy currently residing in the White House. Obama still represented these people and was looking out for them.

You guys might have noticed that I write well. I have a bachelor's degree in business from Indiana University. It used to be a very marketable degree. I went back to school when I was about 40 to finish that degree. I took 3 classes a semester year round for 2.5 years while working 50 hours a week at my truck driving gig. People in America used to admire that kind of hard work, dedication, and desire to get ahead. Guess what? I graduated about three years ago and I'm still driving a truck for a living because I cannot find gainful employment anywhere else. I now have all this school debt hanging over my head, and I had to file for bankruptcy a few years back which of course did not absolve the school debt. This is where people like me are coming from. Old school economic issues. Not petty social vendettas.

I'll let it go now.

[vlyons]

1. What working people want most

Raise the minimum wage to $15/hr
Affordable healthcare
A decent place to live in a safe neighborhood
A good public school for the kids and affordable higher education or training
A dignified retirement

These are bread and butter issues that poor and working people understand. I could add more to this list, but those are the ones that I want Dems to start running on for office.

[Hortensis]

82. Yes. And dumping working minority Democrats--betraying the beliefs

of white working class Democrats--to chase the minority of white working class male Democrats whose resentments and anxieties took them to the party of white supremacy and misogyny in 2016 is not on that list.

Do we really think good, Democratic working people of all races and ethnicities (us!) don't despise those others who gave us Trump? We do.

Let's honor the full third of white working class males who voted Democrat by admitting they exist in very large numbers, shrug at those who were and always will be Republicans, and hold the door open for those who're going to want to slip back and put their betrayal of 2016 behind them.

[treestar]

99. How come they don't vote Democratic candidates in

if that is what they want? The party stances are clear.

The social issues are more important to them. What they really want is women back in the home and people of color in their place. That's how they vote.

[boston bean]

2. I read to the end to read this insult "petty social agendas"

Nope. You will NOT dismiss us.

[Tobin S.]

4. I'm not dismissing you, and that's not an insult.

What I'm saying is, we're not coming after you guys. We don't have it in for you. Why don't you understand that?

[NCTraveler]

19. Probably not the best battle cry for a white male to be making.

In simple appearances.

Many are coming for us. Every single day.

"This wonderful diversity we have going on in the party with minorities starting to claim a bigger stake in the political process is ultimately good for everyone. But for many Americans those just aren't their kind of issues. "

I do take issue with this statement. It's really offensive on face value. We don't only celebrate minorities claiming as they rightfully claim a bigger stake. We celebrate it because they are often more in tune with economic issues in their communities. You need to understand those issues are the exact economic issues you are talking about. Don't dismiss it as simply a bigger stake. It's the movement you want. It's the movement we want. It has a deep economic component to it that you are not seeing.

"One of the most important lessons of Obama was that when he spoke of the American people he always spoke inclusively."

Obama often talked sub-groups. This statement is not accurate and Obama spent eight years proving its inaccuracy. It was one of the most refreshing things about Obama.

"Not petty social vendettas."

If I didn't know any better I would say you should be run out of town for that comment.

You are an angel because you will read every reply to your op with your mind open(might be wrong on this one). Even if they are not very flattering. You are an angel because you help yourself in order to help others. You are an angel because you haven't always been dealt the best hand yet you are a great soul.

[Tobin S.]

25. You guys thought the entire working class wax coming after you

and you scapegoated a loyal part of your base. Where did that come from?

I've been pretty understanding considering that.

You guys were scared shitless of working class white men who are actally your allies. Where did that come from? I'm trying to tell you there is no need to be afraid.

To raise people up in society you have to improve their economic standing. It's not just a working classs white guy thing. White men have been representing in government for all my life. I'm still broke, and it's not for a lack of trying to get ahead.

[NCTraveler]

26. "You guys thought the entire working class wax coming after you"

I never made such a claim. At all.

"You guys were scared shitless of working class white men who are actally your allies."

Projection. I am not scared of them at all. They are some of the best among us. I have no clue where you are getting this stuff from what I have said.

You should probably stop typing "you guys" when responding to an individual. I've seen a lot of that "you guys" before and it's normally not flattering to women and minorities. You are the one pitting yourself against other groups here.

"White men have been representing in government for all my life. I'm still broke, and it's not for a lack of trying to get ahead. "

That's what we are working to change.

[Tobin S.]

31. That 's been clearly expressed

Here and in the media since Trump was elected. Don't try to tell me it wasn't. It was one of the first things I saw here the other night. Basically, working class white guys are going to pay. We don't need them anymore. I saw that from several people and the derogatory rhetoric has been terrible.

[NCTraveler]

35. You guys

You are talking to me and included reference to me. You are trying to broadbrush and it isn’t working for you.

I think the rhetoric is turning in a better direction. You are making absolute statements where none can exist.

Can I reference you as “you guys”? I wouldn’t do such a thing because I’m not ignorant enough to lump you in with the people being discussed in reality. You shouldn’t do it to me. “You guys/people” has a historical context that isn’t pretty. It doesn’t work in the manner you are trying to use it. Your way too comfortable with it.

First they come for the....

So you really think we have reached the last line of that?

[Hortensis]

89. I would. This forum has a bunch of working class and

college educated people, mostly white, but certainly not all. Tobin, you can't castigate us for neglecting working people without insulting those very working people, including yourself.

Especially yourself, double slap. By your description you are a white working class male based on the work you do and your income. That diploma also labels you by another definition as one of those you criticize at such length.

Notably, some of "you guys" who felt as you do took your conflicted resentments to the Republican Party in 2016. I'm assuming you're not one of those guys. Was it that your elite Democratic self was too busy scapegoating your working class Democratic self that held you here, or was there something good and worthwhile about voting Democratic that both "you guys" wanted to be part of?

[kcr]

38. Where did that come from? It didn't.

I think someone who sees social equality as a petty social vendetta is probably the one with the problem.

[Garrett78]

50. A majority of working class people vote for Democrats, and have for a long time.

If a certain subset of *white* working class people (particularly men) aren't voting for Democrats, you can bet they aren't basing their vote on issues like wage disparity, workplace safety, health care and issues that should matter to working class people.

Again, Democrats win among the working class. No, Democrats don't get 100% support from the working class, but they do win a majority.

Anyway, see post #49.

[moriah]

45. The way you said it suggested you think Dem social issues are "petty vendettas".

That we advocate for minorities for a negative reason -- that we have a "petty social vendetta" that make us react with horror to see white supremacist rallies, not a genuine concern for this ideology gaining power.

I am going to take a slightly non-political example. I'm Pagan, and we have a pretty big tent insofar as who labels themselves such. There are people who legitimately worship Norse gods, and Asatru was NOT always a white supremacist trad. It certainly was heteronormative and embraced strong male deities, but Freya wasn't really someone to play with either even if she was benevolent -- she was both powerful in her own right and capable of war. It has now become completely full of people using it to religiously justify racism and promote white supremacy.

Since I don't follow that path but know people who do and are quite upset to see the swastika tats on people at gatherings, it's going to be up to them to fix the problem -- either the trad will split, or they'll get over this fad. But I am not concerned about this because I have a "petty social vendetta" against Asatru, but because it's dangerous to promote the idea that one "race" of human beings is superior to another.

If you're saying that white working class non-voters aren't guilty of having stayed home because they had a "petty social vendetta" against people of other races, that's one thing.

The way you came across suggested you saw liberal values we hold dear as a party as "petty social vendettas".

And if so, you are in the wrong place, buddy.

[sheshe2]

56. Yet men are coming after us everyday.

I'm not dismissing you, and that's not an insult.

What I'm saying is, we're not coming after you guys. We don't have it in for you. Why don't you understand that?

Many have it in for us. BTW, my social issues are not now or have ever been petty.

[ehrnst]

117. So much for "letting it go now."

[Squinch]

18. Yep. Same old same old.

"You're not addressing the needs of the working class and the poor!" When, in fact we are, and we're the only ones doing it, but no we don't do special stuff for the white people among them.

And: "You're wasting your time on all those petty social vendettas" - (fucking petty social vendettas??? Really??? That's what my need for equality is???) - "when what we really need to do is address MY needs."

[Tobin S.]

36. You all thought the working class was coming after you

That statement was about me not you. Thiough it's telling tha you thought I was talking about you. You thought thought the working class wete Nazis obsessed with how we were getting the shaft at the hands off minorities. That's where I was coming from and it's clear if you read it in context.

[Squinch]

39. Where you dreamed that shit up from is a mystery to me. I am a member of the working class.

The white men who voted for Trump? Yes. They were a majority of white men. And yes, all the data we have tells us they voted on the basis of their sexism and racism. And yes. I get that our acknowledging that hurts your feelings.

Two things: first, it's the truth, so we'll talk about it. Second, if it doesn't apply to you it doesn't apply to you. A majority of white women voted for Trump. That's a fact. I am a white woman. People here often generalize and say that white women voted for Trump. I am not so self-involved that I feel the need to demand they stop doing that. It doesn't apply to me, so it doesn't bother me.

This demand from many sides that we must hand-wring over how we discuss your demographic became tiresome a long time ago.

[Tobin S.]

48. We've been getting the beat down for a long time

It!s not just about me. The entire demographic was scapegoated in the worst kind of way.

It doesn't hurt my feelings at all to acknowledge racism in white men. I've been calling it out for years.The thing is working class white men were portrayed as the the people who gave you Trump- the absolute worst president in the history of our country who has absolutely torn us apart when we in fact had very little to do with it. Do you think this bodes well for us? Hang the blame where it belongs: on the middle class and the wealthy. That is the truth. Why is there so much resistence here to that? Well, I guess you guys don't get much money from us.

This voice you are hearing right now got muted on DU a long time ago. You all haven't heard anything here like it in ages. You need to listen to it. I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm asking to stop being treated like a dog. Keep this mind. I am truly on your side.i have never hurt anyone in my liife and I have promoted and endorsed gay rights, women's right's, black issues, and equality for all while everyone else here looks straight down their noses at me and shouts me down when I start to speak up for my interests. I've voted with the Democrats in every election for nearly two decades. My life has steadily gotten worse economically despite working incredibly hard to make it better. This is my issue, and it is being almost completely ignored by both parties as we slide off into economic oblivion.

I'm going to leave you with this. I'm going to keep voting for the Dems becsuse there is really no where else to go. If the party fails, it will be due to conceit. That's the number one problem with the Democratic Party and it has been for a long time. But I truly hope you all are going to be able to turn it all around. Adios.

[Garrett78]

51. Nobody is saying all working class white men voted for Trump.

But many did, of course. Because of racism, sexism, heterosexism, jingoism and xenophobia.

No honest person could look at the party platforms and conclude that Republicans are better for the working class. Those who voted for Trump (or Romney or McCain or Bush) weren't basing their vote on what constitutes sound economic policy. In other words, they voted against their economic interests and *for* their perceived cultural interests. This is why combating and overcoming bigotry is so crucial. It is the fostering and exploiting of bigotry that enables the economic disparity that you rightfully decry.

[radical noodle]

70. Can you honestly tell me that the WWC voters who

voted for Trump would have even listened to Hillary's plans to increase well-paying jobs... because I have my doubts. I've worked with white working class men all my life (construction), many of whom were union, who have supported right to work laws and the GOP for years against their own best interests. Some of them voted for Obama in 2008 but it was mostly due to the crash at the end of Bush's term rather than anything else. Oddly enough, this was in Bloomington, IN (congrats on your IU degree). Without one exception, they were racist and sexist. I've seen very experienced black men turned away because "they wouldn't fit in" but they were told there were no openings.

Your understanding of the issues are based on your feelings and thoughts but others of us know that your way of thinking isn't the norm. A majority of WWC voters listen to Fox and hate abortions, liberals, and political correctness. They've been voting for the GOP for decades. We've talked about jobs for years and although Bill Clinton seemed to get their attention (and was also successful in helping people climb the ladder) they wouldn't pay attention when Obama tried to get something done about infrastructure to create good paying jobs. Why? Because he was the black guy, that's why.

[Squinch]

78. Working class white men did give YOU Trump(R). As did the rest of white men and women.

I don't consider a statement of that fact to be a "beat down" of ME, a white woman. Why do you consider it a beat down of you? Why the drama?

You say you are on our side, yet you carefully distinguish yourself from this "you" to whom you address your screeds. Clearly, we are the "other." Then you tell us we need to listen to you. We've all heard this before and know what it means even if you seem to be unaware of the clear meaning. Personally I'm sick to death of it.

No, I DON'T need to listen to this overblown estimate of the importance of your pet peeve. It's bullshit. The rest of us white men and women here are fully able to distinguish when facts are being stated from when we are being insulted. Time for you and all those who are pushing this "you're being mean to white men and I demand you listen while I instruct you" bullshit to learn to make the same distinction.

Your issue is that people say mean things about other white men that you have chosen to take personally.

My issues: people are successfully and incrementally enslaving my body, my loved ones are going to die if health care goes away, my friends are in danger of being shot by police when they go out for a quart of milk, whatever economic safety net I have is being dismantled and everyone around me faces the possibility of destitution in their old age. To name a few.

Forgive me if I don't drop everything to tell people to stop generalizing about white men so you don't feel slighted.

The party will not fail. If some leave it, it will be due to conceit. It will be due to the fact that they are outraged that they are not being given the special considerations they think they alone deserve.

[betsuni]

84. +1

[brush]

126. Spot on. I love this.

[brush]

3. Where have you been? These issues are continually discussed here on DU.

Last edited Sun Nov 12, 2017, 10:51 PM - Edit history (1)

And as far as your main issue that working class white males are excluded here and not worthy of our concern, I responded to your post that the one-third of aware, working class white males who voted Democratic are and have always been considered part of progressive whites component of our coalition.

I also said that the other two-thirds of working class white males who voted for and continue to support trump are deserving of the scorn heaped upon them here. So please understand, we readily understand and make the distinction between progressive, whites, working class males and trump humpers.

Progressive whites are part of us.

[Tobin S.]

5. Go back to the thread that originated all this

and look down to where I stopped posting. That was nothing but attacks on an entire social class that I belong to. Like I said I stopped looking after that. It just hurt to much.

[brush]

7. Are you not getting that DUers consider the one-third of white working class males who voted...

Democratic as part of the progressive white component of our coalition?

I keep repeating that but you keep saying we are dissing an entire demographic segment.

That is not the case.

[Tobin S.]

8. It was the case in that thread up untll I exited

Why are you so hostile?

[brush]

17. You call that hostile? I call it trying to get through to you that you're misreading things here...

for the most part, and maybe it won't hurt to check the hypersensitivity.

Again, aware, white working class males who voted Democratic are a welcome part of the progressive white component of out coalition.

[Corvo Bianco]

22. I'm in the same class Tobin...

I'm frustrated with those who voted against our interests, and against their own interests. I don't know what it takes but if a guy won't vote for a higher minimum wage and affordable healthcare and gun control, he ain't my friend, and he's not his friend, and he's not your friend. No matter what color, gender, or income.

You're with US!!!!

[ProfessorGAC]

72. I Read That Thread

You're greatly exaggerating the "attacks" there.
To me, the doubling down in this thread has diluted your message to the point of homeopathy.
And, pretty melodramatic and quite self-serving as well!
To approach from a different angle: I'm a white male, and older than you. I'm a highly educated professional but if I told you I made 50% of what I make now in 1990, meaning wage suppression affected me too, you'd think I was only whining if you knew I now make 284% of the median household income.
So, I don't complain and instead comment & criticize the macroeconomic philosophy that leads to such suppression. The it's about everyone, not about me. But after reading the paragraph above, you'll dismiss my concerns because, in fact, both of these threads have been all about you.
If you're a WWM who voted dem forever, then you're not the problem. Neither am I! But, WWM in general, are a political problem and your pounding this issue is ridiculous, and despite your protestations, all about you!

[frazzled]

6. Have you ever gone canvassing door to door?

I have, in lower- and lower-middle class neighborhoods all over New Hampshire, and also in industrial-ravaged parts of Michigan. Almost always when you are canvassing, your script has you ask the voter what issue matters most to them in the current election. I almost never heard responses that touched directly on economic issues, much less on the rich. Here are three real-life examples of the kinds of thing I would hear in response to "what issue matters most to you?"

- "No politician can help me with my issues." And when asked what those issues were, the response was: "My son listens to rap music all day."

- "I'm not voting, it's not going to help me." When asked what help he was seeking: "My wife left me and she won't let me see my kids."

- "My daughter has breast cancer and I don't know what to do." (This was obviously more relates to economic issues, but in the form of health insurance.)

You'd be surprised how disengaged most people are from issues of the day: they are so (perhaps rightfully) focused on their personal problems that they just don't see the government, or any party or individual politician, offering any useful assistance. And in the first two cases above, they are right. I really felt for all these dispirited people. My job in these cases was to try to artfully pivot them to issues that my (Democratic) candidate could in fact address, such as education and school programs in the first case, or health insurance in the last.

But this is all moot with regard to your plea to address economic issues: the Democratic Party and its candidates talk endlessly about economic issues, as well as income inequality and all that. Most people are not listening. And it doesn't sound like you've listened much to them either.

[Tobin S.]

13. I've been listening.

You guys talk about the middle class a lot. A lot. I mean really a lot. Why do you guys think Robert Reich spends almost all his time trying to get people back into old school economics and tax policy? It's because for some reason the message got lost along the way.

[frazzled]

28. You guys

That says it all.
As Mr. T used to say ... well, you know what he said.

[treestar]

96. People with no civic consciousness at all

Not sure I sympathize, as they don't recognize they are living in a society. The second seems especially wilful, in that that the courts could help. He is not even aware it is not totally in his wife's control.

Surely there is plenty of societal, even government help, for those with cancer.

How does not voting help her son? If he is underage, there are resources. There is help for adults, too. Nongovernmental help, hot lines and so on.

I may be going on my experience. I have run into people who actively will not help themselves in any way as they prefer to complain.

[Jim Beard]

120. I want to add what I see as an apathy for some to not vote or discuss issues.................

Many don't have the time to keep up completely with all the issues and also like the quite kids in the class room, they have an opinion but enough to fear being thrashed by another student.

Politics is a contact sport to some some had rather tell people the just don't keep up with it when they know more than one suspects.

[Irish_Dem]

9. Epic rant. Thank you! I agree with you 100%.

We live in an oligarchy, rule by the rich and powerful, huge income inequality.
This must be addressed.

[pnwmom]

10. Here's the piece that you don't seem to get. Concentrating on raising up the working class

-- without addressing the racial, gender, and other divides -- doesn't work.

FDR's new deal only lifted up the white working men you are talking about. It didn't have the same effect on the economic security of single white women or African Americans.

So a single-minded focus on the 99% (or some smaller number at the bottom) isn't enough. Unless you place an EQUAL importance on EQUITY, then the result in the end will favor straight white males, as it always has in the past.

[Tobin S.]

14. Oh i get it

And I addressed it my post. What I said was the two things have to go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.

[pnwmom]

16. You said the economic issues "should be front and center." That's not the same.

A black doctor who's afraid his sons might get shot by the police isn't encouraged by the idea that economic issues should be front and center.

A woman who is in a state where they are trying to pass a bill banning abortion isn't encouraged by the idea that economic issues should be front and center.

[Tobin S.]

20. Not all low income people are men

If you fix economic issues you raise
everyone up. Poverty creates crime. Fix the poverty and you fix the crime to a great degree.

The huge economic disparities in this country create social injustices.

I'm completely on board with everyone's issues. But I'm getting killed out here on this economic stuff as is most of the country. I've bent over backwards understanding women's issues and black issues. In cool with all that. The best thing you can do for women and black people is raise them out of poverty. That is what is hurting them the most. That happens to be what's hurting me the most to.

[pnwmom]

23. But fixing economic issues DOES NOT automatically raise everyone up.

We already proved that during the new deal. Even when things were improved for white men, black people and women still lagged far behind.

You might be "cool" with women's issues and black issues. That doesn't mean that your basic Trump voter is.

And how can you presume to tell women and black people what is hurting them the most?

[Tobin S.]

29. You have to fix the policy

That's all I'm saying. If you don't it doesn't matter who is representing you. I don't care if there isn't a single white man in our entire government. That's not what it's about for me. It really isn't.

My life has become miserable due to the economic policies in this country. That's where I'm coming from. That's where the majority of people are in this country. No matter their demographic.

Demoacrats had a hand in creating the problem. They ran away from the policies that kept it at bay. It's been downhill ever since. Not on social issues. There's been some improvement there. But on economic issues. I know how bad it hurts to not have enough money. And that s where most of us are right now.

[questionseverything]

30. fdr's new deal created the first saftey net for all citizens

http://www.history.com/topics/new-deal

snippet>>

sometimes called the Second New Deal. In April, he created the Works Progress Administration (WPA) to provide jobs for unemployed people. WPA projects weren’t allowed to compete with private industry, so they focused on building things like post offices, bridges, schools, highways and parks. The WPA also gave work to artists, writers, theater directors and musicians. In July 1935, the National Labor Relations Act, also known as the Wagner Act, created the National Labor Relations Board to supervise union elections and prevent businesses from treating their workers unfairly. In August, FDR signed the Social Security Act of 1935, which guaranteed pensions to millions of Americans, set up a system of unemployment insurance and stipulated that the federal government would help care for dependent children and the disabled.

[pnwmom]

32. No, it didn't. The Social Security Act excluded about half the jobs in the American economy.

Most of the jobs black people and women worked in -- jobs in the homes and on farms -- weren't covered by the Social Security act.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n4/v70n4p49.html

The Social Security Act of 1935 excluded from coverage about half the workers in the American economy. Among the excluded groups were agricultural and domestic workers—a large percentage of whom were African Americans.

[questionseverything]

33. umm i thought as dems we backed protecting ss?

so now you are trashing ss?

the aca didn't help at my house but I don't want it ended because of those it does help

perfect unions take time

[pnwmom]

40. I'm not trashing SS. I'm saying that the benefits of the New Deal weren't shared equally.

African Americans and women didn't benefit as much from the "boat lifting" as white men.

A poster said that economic issues need to be "front and center" -- and that all groups of the population will benefit from that emphasis -- and I pointed out that it hasn't worked out that way in the past.

[Garrett78]

52. Yep. Just like the GI Bill didn't apply to everyone equally.

Just as access to housing, higher education, justice and good-paying jobs was (and still isn't) shared equally. Injustices of the past continue to impact the present, to say nothing of ongoing injustices that have never been properly addressed. I'm a proponent of reparations for that very reason.

[questionseverything]

62. everyones boat does get lifted..perhaps not equally but lifted indeed

I am a democrat for one reason

we are the only party that cares if hungry children get fed

that they have a safety net...the safety net that began with fdr's new deal

[pnwmom]

64. That's not enough. Women and minorities won't be satisfied with being the afterthought anymore.nt

[questionseverything]

66. ussually its the women and minorities that care most about hungry children

in my experience anyways

I am not one that thinks we can only do one thing at once

we can fight police brutality while we raise economic boats/changing the criminal justice system would actually help the economy...private for profit prisons need to be a thing of the past...it was a huge freaking mistake, charging our young people with mj crimes, making taxpayers pay to keep non violent peops locked up all to keep the filthy private prisons full

if we get rid of the repubs in congress women will have way less to worry about

what the op was trying to tell ya is to increase that white male vote for dems, which would help us all ,economic issues of inequality need to be addressed

unless you are part of the 1%, the 99 want nothing that will hurt you...don't be scared

(we don't want to hurt the 1% just use their money to make all lives better)

[pnwmom]

68. And I'm telling you that economic issues can't be prioritized "front and center"

over issues of justice and equality among all people, regardless of gender, orientation, and color.

That means it isn't enough to raise all boats by the same amount. Some groups will need to be raised up more than others, in order to reach equity; white men will need to be raised up less than white women, and less than minority men and women.

[sheshe2]

67. No.

Boats are never lifted equally, that is the problem. Minorities never get their fair share and I am not just talking about economic justice here, I am talking social justice as well. You will never have economic justice without social justice. Not ever.

[LanternWaste]

132. You can support that premise with evidence rather than bumper stickers, yes?

"everyones (sic) boat does get lifted.."

You can support that premise with objective evidence rather than simplistic bumper stickers, yes?

Or is it simply another fortune cookie validating another bias?

The social safety net began prior to FDR, though much smaller in scale-- kinda tough to see those boats rising. Could be a great hint to you.

History-- it's not just for t-shirt slogans anymore...

[questionseverything]

133. can't believe i am catching shit for defending the new deal

whatever

[JI7]

44. The point is that it took civil rights for certain people to benefit

[JustAnotherGen]

47. Them

So you are both an expert on what WWC Men "need" and black people?

"The best thing you can do for women and black people is raise them out of poverty."

What about the 78% of black Americans who don't live in poverty?

What else have you got?

My nephew in his mid 20's working at Goldman really truly is more concerned about getting shot by a working class cop for walking while black - than he is poverty.

[Garrett78]

53. The huge economic disparities are enabled by social injustices/bigotry.

The fostering and exploitation of bigotry, particularly racism, is all that maintains the Republican Party's viability.

[sheshe2]

58. All the 'economic justice'

All the 'economic justice' in the world for women will not make men like Trump and Moore go away. Sexual perverts that blame the victim of abuse, want to sue them and demand they take polygraphs. The sad thing is Tobin, their supporters don't care and will gladly vote for them over and over. I have no intention of working with any of them.

You keep making this about you, when it was never about you. You paint us with a broad brush for things we never said about ALL 'poor white men'. You are making this personal when it never was.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. It makes a lot more sense for working class whites to get with the times, which means understanding

that women and POC are in the process of become the face of economic gains through organizing unions and other actions, rather than asking for the people driving those gains to start from Square One and justify their presence in the movement to those who drove it in the past.

[Tobin S.]

15. I'm with the times

I completely understand everyone's issues and I've been learning about them for the 16 years. I have my issues, too. Are you cool with that?

[Corvo Bianco]

24. Thanks for voting in your interest and in mine :)

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. Oh, I thought you were speaking generally.

What issues do you have that you don't feel like are being heard?

[kwassa]

12. People are complex, and broad brushes are just about useless.

I am white, I've worked blue collar jobs. I agree with you.

I worked in a steel mill in Ohio that is now gone. At the time, the work force was ethnically quite diverse, reflecting different waves of migrants that came to the town for jobs. Much of the workforce was of East European origin, but it also had the largest Puerto Rican population outside of New York City in the US, or so I was told at the time. Many African-Americans, too. It was very much like the environment portrayed in the movie "The Deer Hunter". I was not aware of any ethnic tension.

I was there in the early 70s, when Watergate hearings were on TV. Guys used to wear stickers on their hard hats advertising candidates for various union positions. As the hearings went on, stickers appeared on their hard hats saying "Impeach Nixon". These were former Nixon supporters, and they were the most upset with him. I always thought Nixon a crook, and was not surprised in any way, but they were really hurt. This mill essentially went out of business in the mid-80s; globalization has been going on for decades before NAFTA, the Koreans were killing the US steel industry at that point.

Trump promises to bring back the old days, which is a very appealing idea to these former workers, but it is impossible to do. He is blatantly lying, but many don't care because he represents their point of view. Not all, some are better informed and smarter than that.

I've never seen any single demographic be any single thing. People are complex

[questionseverything]

34. anytime a person says ALL of any one group is anything

they are mistaken

[mcar]

21. Petty social vendettas?

[Tavarious Jackson]

37. Our petty social issues are under severe attack right now.

Democrats are and have always been for the working class. Democrats have never abandoned that. It's how Obama left with a fairly good economy that no one cares to notice.

[JI7]

41. They ate NOT powerless. They used their power to help make Trump president

[JI7]

42. They say NFL stands for 'ni@@%&s for life '

[sheshe2]

59. They also think Roy Moore is a real jem...

and he can grab any 14 year old that he wants...since I read a thread about that being the way of life in the South. And you know the Jesus and Mary bullshit....so it must be right.

[bdamomma]

127. hey sheshe2

too much religion can make people stupid.

[applegrove]

43. Republicans know full well that pushing people back on their heels

with economic insecurity results in more tribalism. That is why they destroy unions and give tax cuts to the rich which doesn't help jobs. That is why they refused to fund infrastructure programs under Obama. They get angry xenophobes when they deliver a bad jobs situation to the public. When people lose their marriages and their particular dream. Then the GOP garner more votes. It was intentional.

[raccoon]

93. Thought provoking post. Nt

[Adrahil]

46. Tell it to Johnstown, PA. NT

[Garrett78]

49. The economic disparity is enabled by racism, sexism and xenophobia.

If you address the latter, you address the former. There would be little support for right wing economic policy were it not for bigotry. In fact, the Republican Party would cease to be viable were we to magically wake up in a world without racism, sexism and xenophobia. Bigotry is the tie that binds, and we must fight it at every turn.

As Dr. King said, "Injustice anywhere is a thread to justice everywhere." Just as those rich folks you mentioned want less disparity because political stability is at stake, we should all want less disparity (in terms of wealth, criminal justice, medical care, housing, etc.) between white folks and persons of color.

I'll add something I wrote in another thread:

Democrats already do better than Republicans among the working class. In saying Democrats shouldn't go out of their way to appeal to *white* working class men, the point isn't to denigrate that subset of the population. The point is that the Democratic Party platform should already appeal to the working class. And, for the most part, it does, based on exit polls following every election.

Why speak specifically of *white* working class folks? We all know why. Either it's because there's this assumption that only white people work (horribly racist and obviously false), or it's because a certain portion of *white* working class folks are voting based on factors that have nothing to do with candidate positions on wage stagnation, workplace safety, health care, equal pay, paid family leave and all of the other issues that should matter to the working class. If that's the case, and I think we all know that it is, what do you suggest Democratic candidates do?

Should Democratic candidates not talk about criminal injustice, the race-based "War on Drugs," race-based voter suppression, a path to citizenship and the fact that US policy has been a driver of immigration all around the world, a woman's right to choose, a culture that suggests sexual assault is tolerable, and so on? If not talking about those things, or - worse - taking the opposite position is what it will take to win over a certain subset of the population, then that's just too bad. Get on board with Democrats or lose, because ultimately "the arc of the moral universe bends toward justice."

[betsuni]

75. +1

[Eko]

54. I think this is the way to look at it.

"Trump’s margin among whites without a college degree is the largest among any candidate in exit polls since 1980. Two-thirds (67%) of non-college whites backed Trump,"
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

I'm middle class, white, male and I think that's about as damming a fact you can come up with that the majority of the white working class and poor is full of shite.

[mythology]

55. Unfortunately nuance isn't the internet's strong suit

It's a problem far bigger than DU, but the internet makes it easy to demonize others and to gloss over things that require deeper thought. We jump to assume the worst about somebody else if they disagree with us, it's not that we have a difference of opinion it's that they are stupid or morally wrong or evil.

The world is complex and the solutions to our problems are the same.

[AJT]

57. I understand where you are coming from. The divisions need to stop.

Issues of economic opportunity go beyond color or any other devisive rhetoric. It used to be that "if you work hard you can get ahead" was the American dream but decades of anti-worker policy has decimated the middle class.
Everyone wants the opportunity to work and earn a decent living. We need to concentrate on our common goals.....a good education and the ability to work and support a family.

Have you thought of looking for work in areas like Madison WI? Low unemployment and decent wages.

[NurseJackie]

60. Well... I know.

[sheshe2]

61. ...

[Me.]

81. Good One

Bet I can guess too

[jalan48]

63. The .1% love the peons fighting among themselves. It keeps the focus off of the increasing income

inequality in this country.

Get away! That's my scrap!

[JI7]

65. it's not black people voting to take away rights from whites

why do they refer to protesting NFL players as "Ni%%#$S for Life " ?

[shanny]

85. They? One anecdote.

[heaven05]

121. they? yes

one anecdote used by how many? 66milion possibly. In this age, this present age of ameriKKKan bigotry and racism enabled and encouraged by their racist-in-chief, they is an apt description of the many who are using NFL.....

[qwlauren35]

69. You got me thinking.

I know the term "trailer trash" and I can imagine that it stings like a bitch to hear yourself referred to that way. Does it sting as much as "ni&&er"? I don't know.

I laugh at Jeff Foxworthy, and thinking about it, the whole "git 'er done" thing with Larry the Cable Guy feeds into stereotypes and gets people laughing at working class Southerners when such jokes about other minority groups would not be acceptable.

SO! Although you say that you're about economic issues, I think when you speak for "your group", you're really looking for some respect.

You are in a group that is not a minority - yet - and maybe seeing minority groups get attention for their deepest issues, like police brutality, abortion and sexual assault, marriage equality, etc., makes you feel as though your issues aren't getting attention. But actually, I think what you're doing, and you don't know you're doing it, is playing the white privilege card, by saying that YOUR issues should be front and center. And suggesting that if we just focused on YOUR issues, everything else would be taken care of.

The economic issues vs. social issues argument played out during the 2016 Democratic primaries and got MAJOR UGLY. In fact, it was so ugly that some Democrats wouldn't vote in the general election. If you weren't one of them, that's a good start. Fixing economic issues doesn't fix social issues related to prejudice. It just doesn't. You've got to let go of that. The Democratic party has a very broad platform that includes both economic and social issues. Social issues related to prejudice don't affect straight white working class men. So it is not surprising that some might want economic issues on top. But it's arrogant. Very arrogant.

I know you don't mean to be arrogant, I know you don't realize that you're invoking white privilege. But please realize that it SOUNDS like you're saying that if economic issues, your issues, straight white working class men's issues, can't be front and center, then the Democrats don't deserve your vote.

Please think long and hard about how you sound when you suggest that economic issues need to come before whether a person has to worry about being shot by the police without having committed a crime. Why can't the issues be side by side? Not everyone has student loan debt, not everyone has had to declare bankruptcy, not everyone struggles to find a job. Those are YOUR issues. And those are some major issues, and you've been through some major shit in your life. I get that. But "front and center"? Instead of side by side?

Do you see what you've done?

I respect you, I hear you. And I get that you want to feel heard, to have your issues paid attention to. And maybe you feel that social issues drown out economic issues. But they don't. They are just side by side. Equal billing. Everyone is heard.

If you're not comfortable with "side by side", then your straight-white-maleness is showing. It may be time for you to become an Independent. Vote based on the person, etc. But I think if you take a serious look at the Republican party, you will find that they aren't putting economic issues at the top of the party platform either. They have "family values". And "Make America Great Again", substitute "great" for "white". So, maybe you would feel more respected with the Republicans, even though they wouldn't solve any of your economic problems.

As a black woman, strongly pro-abortion, and constantly worried that my husband will be pulled over and shot, my issues aren't your issues. The Democratic Party has room for both of us. I don't ask that my issues be front and center. I just want them included. Your issues ARE included. If you want more than that, you need to take a look in the mirror, because you are being part of the problem.

[brer cat]

73. Good post.

I think we will be seeing a lot more of this anger and resentment from those afraid that their birthright of white male privilege is in serious jeopardy. To cast blame on Democrats is naive; to reduce concerns of women and minorities to "petty social vendettas" is terrible scapegoating.

[betsuni]

74. +1

[cwydro]

76. Very well said.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[snpsmom]

77. Wonderful post! n/t

[Squinch]

79. After your post, nothing more needs to be said.

Perfect, and you are much nicer than I am.

[PunkinPi]

80. +1 nt

[crosinski]

86. Beautifully written! n/t

[NurseJackie]

88. Yes. This. Exactly. Thank you!

Quoting your entire post below so that I can add it to my DU-Journal.

qwlauren35
69. You got me thinking.

View profile
I know the term "trailer trash" and I can imagine that it stings like a bitch to hear yourself referred to that way. Does it sting as much as "ni&&er"? I don't know.

I laugh at Jeff Foxworthy, and thinking about it, the whole "git 'er done" thing with Larry the Cable Guy feeds into stereotypes and gets people laughing at working class Southerners when such jokes about other minority groups would not be acceptable.

SO! Although you say that you're about economic issues, I think when you speak for "your group", you're really looking for some respect.

You are in a group that is not a minority - yet - and maybe seeing minority groups get attention for their deepest issues, like police brutality, abortion and sexual assault, marriage equality, etc., makes you feel as though your issues aren't getting attention. But actually, I think what you're doing, and you don't know you're doing it, is playing the white privilege card, by saying that YOUR issues should be front and center. And suggesting that if we just focused on YOUR issues, everything else would be taken care of.

The economic issues vs. social issues argument played out during the 2016 Democratic primaries and got MAJOR UGLY. In fact, it was so ugly that some Democrats wouldn't vote in the general election. If you weren't one of them, that's a good start. Fixing economic issues doesn't fix social issues related to prejudice. It just doesn't. You've got to let go of that. The Democratic party has a very broad platform that includes both economic and social issues. Social issues related to prejudice don't affect straight white working class men. So it is not surprising that some might want economic issues on top. But it's arrogant. Very arrogant.

I know you don't mean to be arrogant, I know you don't realize that you're invoking white privilege. But please realize that it SOUNDS like you're saying that if economic issues, your issues, straight white working class men's issues, can't be front and center, then the Democrats don't deserve your vote.

Please think long and hard about how you sound when you suggest that economic issues need to come before whether a person has to worry about being shot by the police without having committed a crime. Why can't the issues be side by side? Not everyone has student loan debt, not everyone has had to declare bankruptcy, not everyone struggles to find a job. Those are YOUR issues. And those are some major issues, and you've been through some major shit in your life. I get that. But "front and center"? Instead of side by side?

Do you see what you've done?

I respect you, I hear you. And I get that you want to feel heard, to have your issues paid attention to. And maybe you feel that social issues drown out economic issues. But they don't. They are just side by side. Equal billing. Everyone is heard.

If you're not comfortable with "side by side", then your straight-white-maleness is showing. It may be time for you to become an Independent. Vote based on the person, etc. But I think if you take a serious look at the Republican party, you will find that they aren't putting economic issues at the top of the party platform either. They have "family values". And "Make America Great Again", substitute "great" for "white". So, maybe you would feel more respected with the Republicans, even though they wouldn't solve any of your economic problems.

As a black woman, strongly pro-abortion, and constantly worried that my husband will be pulled over and shot, my issues aren't your issues. The Democratic Party has room for both of us. I don't ask that my issues be front and center. I just want them included. Your issues ARE included. If you want more than that, you need to take a look in the mirror, because you are being part of the problem.

[mia]

98. For the sake of context, you may want to include the original post.

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 02:39 PM
Star Member Tobin S. (9,596 posts)

I don't know if I'm a devil or an angel around here right now.


But here is something I've been looking at for a little while now. Hear me out please. Make sure you read through to the end. There are a lot of people who simply don't vote because they feel like they've been left behind on economic issues. The huge disparity in income stratification we have in this country is a very big problem. Along with climate change, this should be one of the biggest issues in America right now. There are wealthy and powerful Democrats who've been talking about this for a while: Robert Reich and Nick Hanauer to name a couple. Some very wealthy people are actually calling on us to tax them more right now, because they know this is getting out of hand. And when income stratification gets out of hand you start to get political instability. You start to get shit like Trump. It's not just for the benefit of the rest of us that some of these rich people are talking like this. It's also enlightened self interest.

This wonderful diversity we have going on in the party with minorities starting to claim a bigger stake in the political process is ultimately good for everyone. But for many Americans those just aren't their kind of issues. Nothing wrong with that stuff, but for low income straight white people, for example, it simply doesn't help them where they need help the most. So if you continue in that direction without addressing the issue of economic security and social policy that helps poor and working class people in every demographic, it's really not something you can build a long term strategy on for continued success into the future. It's good, but we need to address these economic issues along with that stuff. The issue should be front and center.

One third of the population living in poverty. Poor and working class people from all demographics making up the majority of the population. The middle class shrinking and people continually falling out of it. Even upper middle class people are not completely economically secure if they happen to develop a severe medical issue. These things absolutely have to be addressed or this country is just going to keep getting crazier.

The victories earlier this week are a welcome and refreshing sign. I also know that powerful people in the Democratic Party are aware of the problems I just spoke of, and want to address them. In my view, if the politicians we have keep speaking on these economic issues, more and more people will start to come back around to the Democratic Party. I want to urge you guys not to demonize ordinary people in any demographic including Trump supporters anywhere the Democratic Party is represented, including DU. I know I've done it, too, and I'm here to tell you that was wrong. It might make you guys feel better, but it ultimately doesn't help anyone, and actually hurts your cause. It's okay to cut down the regressive politicians, but work to lift the people up. Working class white men should be allies of working class black men. Most of them understand that. They really do. Some of them might not be up to par on your social issues, but when it comes to poverty and economic hardship they understand completely.

One of the most important lessons of Obama was that when he spoke of the American people he always spoke inclusively. He did his best to make it clear to us all that he valued every one of us whether we agreed with him or not. He was a true man of the people. He never cut down ordinary Americans even when it was clear about how hated he was by some of them. He is a shining example of what a Democrat should be. He served two terms despite the fact that the most powerful and wealthy people in America were working their hardest to defeat him, and despite the incredible gridlock his last 6 years in office. He won my home state of Indiana in the election for his first term. Yeah, lots to learn from Obama.

In my sig line you'll see a quote from Obama on what is my most important issue: climate change. I put that one ahead of everything including the issues that benefit me in a more selfish way. I deeply admire Obama. I'm 45 years old and he is clearly the best president of my lifetime even though he was hamstrung by Congress for most of his time in office. I'm a working class white man.

When I came out here with that thread the other day about how I felt you guys were slandering and scapegoating working class white men, that didn't come out of nowhere. It's been festering a long time. Then when I called you guys on it, over the first hour the thread was up it looked to me as if you guys had this impression that the Fourth Reich was coming for you guys and it was comprised of working class white men who had allegedly given you Trump. It was very painful, and after I exited that thread with my last comment in it, I haven't been able to go back and look in it even though it got all kinds of recs and ended up on the front page.

So one last time before I let it go. It looks like 33% of Trump voters were working class. Not all of them were men, of course. I don't know the stats for Hillary in that category, but I'm sure there's a significant amount of working class white men who voted for her, including me. Then when you consider that 40% of eligible voters didn't vote in that election, most of them probably poor and working class people...well, the working class white man Fourth Reich doesn't look like it's taken hold quite as strong as some of you might have been thinking, or gave me the impression that you were thinking.

Poor and working class white people have been maligned for a long time in this country by powerful, rich, and famous people. There are some incredibly offensive stereotypes about them that freely get floated around the internet and popular culture, that if they were said about any other group of people in this country by someone in the public eye it would permanently damage their reputation. But it gets a pass when they do it to us. I'll go get an example of it if you want me to that was generated by a wealthy east coast Democrat. When I see stuff like that, and I see it a lot, it hurts my confidence in you guys. The people on the right do it, too. Do you think Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable Guy are doing us any favors? Do you know who is in the audience at their Blue Collar Comedy shows? It's not people like me. Even if I wanted to go I can't the free time or the cash together for a ticket. Those are caricatures that they present in their shows. They are not accurate representations of who poor and working class people are. But these guys got rich on us talking that shit at our expense. You might see working class guys who like them and think they are funny. It's in the same category of a thing like women voting for Trump.

Poor and working class white people are essentially powerless just like any other demographic in that income category, and they continually get hammered by social and economic forces. It's not something to be taken lightly and made fun of, and it certainly isn't their fault- even if some of them are so confused by what's going in the world that they'll vote for a Republican. These people are not your enemies, and they need your representation even if you don't get their vote. Obama knew that quite clearly. And being the most powerful man on the planet he had the kindness and compassion not to punch down on people even if they didn't support him, unlike some other guy currently residing in the White House. Obama still represented these people and was looking out for them.

You guys might have noticed that I write well. I have a bachelor's degree in business from Indiana University. It used to be a very marketable degree. I went back to school when I was about 40 to finish that degree. I took 3 classes a semester year round for 2.5 years while working 50 hours a week at my truck driving gig. People in America used to admire that kind of hard work, dedication, and desire to get ahead. Guess what? I graduated about three years ago and I'm still driving a truck for a living because I cannot find gainful employment anywhere else. I now have all this school debt hanging over my head, and I had to file for bankruptcy a few years back which of course did not absolve the school debt. This is where people like me are coming from. Old school economic issues. Not petty social vendettas.

I'll let it go now.

Response to Tobin S. (Original post)Sat Nov 11, 2017, 01:38 AM
Star Member qwlauren35 (3,573 posts)

69. You got me thinking.


I know the term "trailer trash" and I can imagine that it stings like a bitch to hear yourself referred to that way. Does it sting as much as "ni&&er"? I don't know.

I laugh at Jeff Foxworthy, and thinking about it, the whole "git 'er done" thing with Larry the Cable Guy feeds into stereotypes and gets people laughing at working class Southerners when such jokes about other minority groups would not be acceptable.

SO! Although you say that you're about economic issues, I think when you speak for "your group", you're really looking for some respect.

You are in a group that is not a minority - yet - and maybe seeing minority groups get attention for their deepest issues, like police brutality, abortion and sexual assault, marriage equality, etc., makes you feel as though your issues aren't getting attention. But actually, I think what you're doing, and you don't know you're doing it, is playing the white privilege card, by saying that YOUR issues should be front and center. And suggesting that if we just focused on YOUR issues, everything else would be taken care of.

The economic issues vs. social issues argument played out during the 2016 Democratic primaries and got MAJOR UGLY. In fact, it was so ugly that some Democrats wouldn't vote in the general election. If you weren't one of them, that's a good start. Fixing economic issues doesn't fix social issues related to prejudice. It just doesn't. You've got to let go of that. The Democratic party has a very broad platform that includes both economic and social issues. Social issues related to prejudice don't affect straight white working class men. So it is not surprising that some might want economic issues on top. But it's arrogant. Very arrogant.

I know you don't mean to be arrogant, I know you don't realize that you're invoking white privilege. But please realize that it SOUNDS like you're saying that if economic issues, your issues, straight white working class men's issues, can't be front and center, then the Democrats don't deserve your vote.

Please think long and hard about how you sound when you suggest that economic issues need to come before whether a person has to worry about being shot by the police without having committed a crime. Why can't the issues be side by side? Not everyone has student loan debt, not everyone has had to declare bankruptcy, not everyone struggles to find a job. Those are YOUR issues. And those are some major issues, and you've been through some major shit in your life. I get that. But "front and center"? Instead of side by side?

Do you see what you've done?

I respect you, I hear you. And I get that you want to feel heard, to have your issues paid attention to. And maybe you feel that social issues drown out economic issues. But they don't. They are just side by side. Equal billing. Everyone is heard.

If you're not comfortable with "side by side", then your straight-white-maleness is showing. It may be time for you to become an Independent. Vote based on the person, etc. But I think if you take a serious look at the Republican party, you will find that they aren't putting economic issues at the top of the party platform either. They have "family values". And "Make America Great Again", substitute "great" for "white". So, maybe you would feel more respected with the Republicans, even though they wouldn't solve any of your economic problems.

As a black woman, strongly pro-abortion, and constantly worried that my husband will be pulled over and shot, my issues aren't your issues. The Democratic Party has room for both of us. I don't ask that my issues be front and center. I just want them included. Your issues ARE included. If you want more than that, you need to take a look in the mirror, because you are being part of the problem.

[mia]

94. "I know you don't mean to be arrogant",

but did you mean to imply that Tobin S. is "trailer trash"?

[qwlauren35]

124. Oh GOSH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would never, ever imply that Tobin S. was trailer trash. Any more than I think he would ever imply that I'm a ni**er. But the words are used to describe working class white people, and they are very, very ugly. He has identified himself as working class, just as I have identified myself as black. I would not be surprised if there are people who use the phrase, and do mean Tobin S. Just as there are people who use the word Ni**er and definitely mean me.

What I was trying to establish is that he is part of a group of people that are being labelled in a very ugly, hateful matter, and frequently laughed at and dismissed. "Git er done" doesn't help. The Jeff Dunham "Nascar fan" doesn't help. We allow ourselves to laugh at this caricature of working class white people, and I'm sure they don't find it funny.

In thinking about it, this is one area in which white working class people are "discriminated against". America has decided that it's okay to make fun of them. To slam them, to degrade them, to think less of them. It's big money to make fun of working class white people. Ni**er jokes, Pollack jokes, were all eliminated. But making fun of working class white people - that's okay.

Words hurt.

No, a thousand times no, I was not trying to call the man anything of the sort.

[betsuni]

71. The Tobin doth protest too much, you guys.

[KPN]

83. So much hatred here at DU, and

by association, in the D Party. I am sickened.

[Hortensis]

92. We ARE WORKING PEOPLE, KPN, committed above all

to helping working people. Because we are they and they are us.

Everything to the contrary is a lie.

And you shouldn't mistake anger for hate. We're must mad as hell, full of anxiety about the future of our country, and we're particularly fed up with both the malicious infiltrators who come here to spread lies about us to us and the fools who believe them.

[KPN]

101. I appreciate your effort to provide

perspective and your optimism about the party. At the same time, what I have heard in this specific thread is outright vicious and vile. If people are angry because of Trump, great ... but perhaps they should get a grip as opposed to modeling the exact behavior they claim to be so angry about (because that's what it looks like to me).

Based on your posts, you strike me as fairly open-minded and thoughtful Democrat. I can't say the same about some others.

As for "we are working people committed above all to helping working people", I am not convinced. What I see and hear is too many people who claim the D label who are too complacent when it comes to labor and the economy -- and have been seeing it for 35 years.

It sickens me. I'm fed up with it. It's self-serving bullshit. And may well bo our party's ultimate demise.

As for the trolls dividing us etc., we've been trolled by the GOP forever. There's nothing new in that. We should all be smart enough by now to not fall prey, but obviously not ... we're contesting and tearing ourselves apart over social vs economic issues for christ's sake!

[Hortensis]

105. I confess I didn't read most of this passionate stuff.

Avoiding being sickened myself, but got caught up anyway.

But, complacent when it comes to labor and the economy? Exactly the opposite, of course? How many here feel sure they know what they'll be doing in ten years? How many of those still in the workforce feel absolutely sure they will even have an income in ten years? The anxiety is huge. Sure, we should be decent enough not to rip each other apart in our anxiety, but hate is the wrong word there also.

What was pushing my button is that so many refuse to recognize that one of the parties actually does want to do good for the American people in general. One party is dominated by people who believe in equality, and life, liberty, etc. We prove it every time we're in power. Any way we fall short, though, is false-equalized into some version of "we're just as bad as them."

I once read a social scientist's "flip" description of a difference between left-wing and right-wing thinking among those prone to extremism, and short form was that while the right "hates everyone else" the left "hates itself."

I have 0 vulnerability that way myself, but there are a lot of...ardent souls here who suck up all the destructive lies from the right and inflated criticisms and passionately regurgitate them as truths. We are seldom able to get on top of all this negative, defeatist garbage and just be even a little bit proud to be us.

[KPN]

106. I understand. There IS a huge

difference between the D's and the R's. 'm not and have never questioned that. There is no question the Democratic Party is far superior when it comes putting people first when it comes to governing.

I am just bewildered and tired of -- and by -- the harassment individuals get here when they draw attention to the party's failings. And there are and have been plenty of them when it comes to fighting for and doing what's right for labor and the working class over most of my adult life. At least in my view -- and I have felt this way for 20-25 years. The previous 10-15, I blamed it all on the R's.

I am fortunate. I am not working class myself and actually enjoy a very comfortable and reasonably secure retirement. But I came from working class. My father was a local truck driver, my mother a stay-at-home Mom, one of 9 kids.
I was raised a Democrat and have always been one. My parents didn't have a lot, but they were able to make sure all 9 of us had the opportunity for a relatively secure and in some cases prosperous future. Largely because we had a government that supported public education, labor and put people ahead of corporate profit and shareholder gains. That's no longer the case on balance. And I can say without any question in my mind that the Democratic Party was complicit in getting us here.

I don't worry about my personal future, but I do about my kids' and those who come behind my generation (boomers). We need to change -- as a Party if we are going to change for the better as a nation.

I don't see a lot of posts making a case that the two parties are the same here, but I consistently hear that lament from those who tend to read it into any criticism. At least that is my perception. We are the better party by far. But that doesn't mean we haven't fallen short. With what I read and hear here, I'm not sure that most recognize or agree with that, or are even open-minded enough to consider it. As I mentioned earlier, I fear that could lead to our party's failure in the long run. Hope not, but ....

Let me end my ramble by just saying thanks for listening and discussing. Maybe I've been successful at explaining the basis for the sick feelings I get when I read the dialogue on threads like this. Peace!

[Hortensis]

109. KPN, the Democratic Party has amazingly few real failings.

Last edited Sat Nov 11, 2017, 04:58 PM - Edit history (1)

There are lots of things we should do better if we could.

But if you must be so focused on failings, why on earth is the Democratic Party that has you in despair? Our extremely broad coalition may be imperfect but it is by far the purest, most vital expression of democracy our nation has. It's more than a little wonderful.

Sanders righteous little rule-or-ruin band claims to represent everyone, but actions show only those who fall in behind their chosen leader are their "everyone." The Republicans have been completely corrupted and taken over by special interests, all ability to serve our nation destroyed, collapsed under the weight of that intense corruption and betrayal.

We're it, and America is so incredibly fortunate that we still believe in the principles people like us have since the establishment of this nation.

I suggest the biggest failing troubling you may be your own. You seem a bit lost.

You're unable to recognize and take pride that we still carry forward, right now, today, our great heritage of liberalism and all that means. And it has been a huge factor, many times the factor, in everything that has been good about being an American living under our form of government. It's not over.

You seem unable to see that, just as the Sanders clique is unable, but though you do have a lot of their negativism toward liberals and the Democratic Party, you lack the passionate conviction of righteousness that gives them their energy. You can't take pleasure in our losses.

I'm fortunate that from the beginning I recognized for what they were the lies that I and many millions have abandoned the principles of liberalism, that they no longer guide the Democratic Party. I was never corrupted by these systematic efforts to demoralize and neutralize me. Our temporary failures to live up to our own principles have never meant they're gone, especially those that are reactions to huge forces, and sensible people don't lose sight of the big picture to start kicking angry holes in the party walls.

I don't know why you've been so affected, but I do know it's not because the Democratic Party failed you. It's something in you. Not to worry about that. All these words aren't worth spit, or at least don't do much damage. Half the people here seem to agree with you. But it's our enormously powerful little vote, and to a lesser degree volunteering, are what count.

Here, consider this from something I was just reading from Verrit:

One of the most intractable myths about 2016 is that it was about white working class “economic anxiety.” A Washington Post headline puts that to rest: “Two new studies find racial anxiety is the biggest driver of support for Trump.” In the words of the New Republic, “To say that Trump won because of economic outrage is to misunderstand today’s working class and to erase a huge portion of it entirely.” The Atlantic elaborates: “Evidence suggests financially troubled voters in the white working class were more likely to prefer Clinton over Trump.”

Part of the “economic anxiety” myth is fueled by the oft-repeated talking point that Hillary Clinton ignored Wisconsin and other swing states. Fact: In Wisconsin and other key swing states, Hillary Clinton won the majority of voters who said the economy was their top concern. If anything, voter suppression was the deciding factor in Wisconsin.

Huh. Big surprise. Our entire white population only recently woke up to the facts that not only was this never really an Ozzie and Harriet nation, but that the period of guaranteed white dominance is rapidly coming to an end. Even most people who aren't particularly bigoted don't actually want to lose the reassuring, institutionalized safety net that comes with being white.

So, we're reacting to that and a dozen other real, world-shaking changes that are enormously larger than the party at the same time.

That's a little window into what's really happening.

[KPN]

129. H, the Democratic Party did not fail me, nor do I think that.

As I said, I've done well.

If you can't see or appreciate where the party has come up short over the past 35 years, you either weren't here, weren't paying attention or really didn't care (complacency). I'll just keep it short and say neo-liberalism -- which I suspect in itself will garner your protest. If you can't understand why many Democrats, former Democrats or Independents weren't inspired by Hillary, I would simply say that you can't relate to them and perhaps lack a well developed sense of observation and empathy. (By the way, I voted for Hillary in the general, though I supported and voted for Bernie in the primary.)

I agree, racial anxiety is probably the biggest driver of support for Trump. I'm not sure anyone here has ever really contested that -- I certainly have not. Big difference though between biggest and all. But you obviously see things through your own set of what seems to be somewhat limited lenses ... as your remark about "only recently" waking up "to the fact that this never was an Ozzie and Harriet nation" so aptly demonstrates. Many of us have been awake for at least 30-35 years.

As for negativism, yeah, I am negative about the comments I see posted in this particular thread. As I said, at the outset, there seems to be a lot of hate here. That's troubling to me, especially from Democrats.

As for the rest, I'll just pass on that. Peace Hortensis!

[Hortensis]

130. Yes, I should have said the problems Democrats are being

Last edited Mon Nov 13, 2017, 05:50 PM - Edit history (1)

blamed for now arise from forces far too large for one party to control, especially one that has almost always over the past 4 decades lacked control of the executive and legislative branches. Of course, there are many things Democrats should have done or done better.

But just think. After 1970 or so, global wealth quadrupled, a lion's share of it right here, creating new metamillionaire and billionaire classes. Until China started shouldering past recently, the U.S. literally had 1/2 of all the planet's billionaires.

Those ultraconservatives from the uberwealthy classes who set out four decades ago to reorder our nation to serve them learned from the mistakes of their pre- New Deal forerunners. They set out very early to move the electorate right and to defeat us ahead of time by dividing the electorate so that we could not form a majority to stop them.

Almost all our problems come from a critically divided electorate. This allowed the infiltration of agents of great wealth into all our systems to corrupt and/or outright destroy them -- for the purpose of turning our government to the service of the very wealthy. They are very deeply embedded now, and have been busily transferring our nation's wealth and power to the few for a long time now -- with the increasingly passionate assistance of a majority of the electorate.

The Democratic Party could not stop these great forces, which grew up very fast and are swamping governments around the planet, many of them fallen, and it's very unrealistic and foolish to imagine one party could. But, in spite of some inevitable share in the flood of corruption, overall our principles and goals remain intact, as they always were.

And that's what I mean by not failing -- as compared to the Republican Party which has been almost entirely taken over by these dark forces, abandoned all principles of traditional conservatism, and has not just completely failed its duty to its members and its nation, but is actively fighting to achieve maximal betrayal. The corruption of thought and purpose now affects all levels top to bottom, including most of the Republican electorate.

Democrats still believe in government of, by and for the people. And, note especially, there're a number of reasons the dark money forces needed to, and were able to, corrupt and take over the Republican Party, but NOT the Democratic Party. Similarly, Russia didn't just want but desperately needed to elect Republicans and defeat Democrats.

There are real differences between us. Charles Koch and Vlad Putin, to name just two, won't tell you in words, but their actions speak extremely loudly. They must defeat us to defeat our nation.

We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. -- Louis D. Brandeis back in the 1920s-30s.

[Madam45for2923]

87. Republicans don't have solutions for WWC issues beside feel-good-now-racism & religion un-freedom,

nice control of women's agency plus a big dose of homophobia! And they will lie to your faces about 'em tax cuts.

And now they are offering Russian-Nazis Combo by the dozen as seen by the squatters in our WH.

BUT PLEASE LET"S DUMP ON DEMS!!!!!

[lapucelle]

90. The media helped to promulgate "the big lie" in 2016 and continues to this day.

"But for many Americans those just aren't their kind of issues. Nothing wrong with that stuff, but for low income straight white people, for example, it simply doesn't help them where they need help the most.

So if you continue in that direction without addressing the issue of economic security and social policy that helps poor and working class people in every demographic, it's really not something you can build a long term strategy on for continued success into the future. It's good, but we need to address these economic issues along with that stuff. The issue should be front and center."

I respectfully suggest that anyone who thinks that the Democratic Party does not not have fully fleshed out policy goals and strategies for "addressing the issue of economic security and social policy that helps poor and working class people in every demographic" should reread the Democratic platform.

Why on earth would anyone who knows what the Democratic Party stands and fights for believe a narrative being sold by a lazy media and by non-Democrats who want the party to fail? Cui bono?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.democrats.org/Downloads/2016_DNC_Platform.pdf

[Hortensis]

91. This huge lie is a huge clue to just how big the infiltration of

the MSM by anti-Democratic forces is. It's everywhere, and not just on social media, but all day and much of the evening on cable and in the political pages of journals like the New York Times Atlantic.

[heaven05]

95. oh!!!!

poor white male, slandered and disparaged... yet who precisely is responsible for the racism that has CONTINOUOSLY slandered, disparaged, murdered by hanging, burning, police shooting minorities, especially the African-american, from EVERY generation since so-called emancipation? I call BULLSHIT on all words declaring that the poor, working class white male is powerless. Every generation of the white race from the landing at Plymouth Rock till the installation of this dipshit called potus has had the future in their hands.

It is a recent phenomena for minorities to start to have a real say in the direction this country should take. President Obama proved that. Yet Whites who are racist, male and female, made it abundantly clear, on Nov. 8 2016, this type of diversity would not be tolerated again. No blacks, women or any minority allowed. Might as well take the 'whites only' signs out of the mothballs. I remember reading them and Chatlottesville, bundy, the Las Vegas shooter, the texas church shooter are letting all not white, male and racist know the white male intends on staying in power in this country and that they have control over EVERYONE'S life.

All these goddamn shooters and white power demonstrators ARE not crazy, just reasserting their self perceived idea of white male dominance and supremacy.

NO The white male has NEVER been powerless, under any circumstance since Plymouth Rock.

[Skidmore]

97. Consider this

To a good portion of white people, whiteness is like air or water, a medium on which all else derives by virtue of their existence. That is privilege. The threat now is that some realized they belong to just one other group of humanity and may have to compete. It has taken poor whites this long post Civil War to sort of grasp this reality.

Poverty is no respecter of person. It is not more tragic when the labor of a white person goes unrewarded at the level where they estimate their worth. Isn't it about time for these aggrieved people to stop whining and work to stop the manipulation of all workers by the wealthy?

[mia]

100. You're neither, Tobin.

We're all a little bit of both, with strengths and weaknesses, and all variations in between.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. Well, it's my issue and I come from a working class family

This wonderful diversity we have going on in the party with minorities starting to claim a bigger stake in the political process is ultimately good for everyone. But for many Americans those just aren't their kind of issues

-Tobin S

Well, it's my issue and I come from a working class family. Working class whites makes up 26% of the electorate. We should help them because they are our fellow Americans but I'm under no illusion that they will abandon Trump or the GOP. I rather focus on the other 74%.

I won't throw one glbtq person, African American, Hispanic, Muslim, immigrant et cetera under the bus to get their votes. One, because it would be wrong, and two, because we don't need them.

[mcar]

118. Well said!

I agree completely.

[NCTraveler]

103. Progressive white working class males are some of the best.

Dear white working class males
Thank you for all you have done
Your years of going to the polls
Has surely been fun

Now quietly step to the side
As we fight for your concerns
Pocahonta s is not one of them
You are simply too stubborn to learn

These general terms used
Are from generations of knowing
A majority of this class
Keep the trend going

Of course it’s not all
Many know there privilege resides
Up high atop their shoulders
It’s something that never hides

To those who get it
You are some of the best
And you are supporting our voices
As women and minorities resist

We are fighting for the issues that concern you most. We are also fighting for issues you seem to think of as being righteous, just not as high on your priority list. Instead of repeating “You guys” jump onboard with us all the way.

[Mosby]

104. if more people voted

We wouldn't be having these arguments about economic vs social issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. What are "petty social vendettas" ?

[cwydro]

111. Yeah, that hit me wrong too.

I was kinda with Tobin on the last thread, but this double down and the “petty social vendettas” has me a little annoyed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. I would like to know what they are.

[cwydro]

113. Ima guess all of us annoying gay people, women, and of course, the Afam community.

Sigh.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. The author of this thread really needs to answer

[cwydro]

115. Im not going to hold my breath.

There are things I’m seeing in the text of the OP that I really hope I’m misinterpreting.

[ismnotwasm]

108. I come from poor working class

It’s where I learned that being a women means I’m weak, what I look like is more important than what I think. I heard every pejorative term for African Americans by the time I was probably seven years of age. My parents tried not to say “fuck” in front of me though. It’s where I learned that other races are implicitly inferior—although they may have some good points, like the attractiveness of Asian women. It’s where I learned to drink, to smoke, ultimately to do drugs. Not the ones most Americans consider benign.

I recovered from that. I got an education.

Are their good people amongst White Working Class Males? Sure. I married one. But every single one I am related to or know personality had to “evolve” when it came to gender. When it came to race. Or didn’t evolve and continues to think jokes with the “N” word in them are funny and people just need to lighten up

My husband and I don’t put up with that shit. We’ve both traveled too far to defend anything about it.

[crosinski]

110. Tobin S. If you could put a new plank in the DNC platform, what would it be?

Tell us what the Democratic party could do differently to specifically address your problems. Then we can work with you, or argue with you about that.

But we aren't the DNC here. We're just a forum, and sort of a big Democratic never-can-agree family. I think the Democratic party has let you down in the last twenty years. It's let everyone else down too. Damn. I mean, look at where we are now. Unless we have a depression on top of this, things can't get much worse. And yeah, Dems were asleep at the switch.

So, you gotta work with us as you find us, even if we aren't the people you want us to be exactly. You know?

[ehrnst]

116. Yeah, you'll "Let it go now."

Second post talking about the oppressed white male.

[cwydro]

123. Yes, the doubling down is disturbing.

I was willing to listen in the first OP, then this OP with the “petty social vendettas” suddenly arrives.

Those “petty social vendettas” have resulted in a black activist being elected to the city council in my city, and we also elected our first black FEMALE mayor.

These “petty social vendettas” will reverse this tide of Rumpism in this country...this I believe.

[yardwork]

122. Are you Tobin Smith?

[hunter]

125. Don't get suckered into the language of others.

My owns words mean what I want them to mean.

No more, no less.

[lunasun]

128. Will there be more in this series ? I am assuming so since it ends with you "letting it go now."

This allows for a later time to return ........

Petty social vendettas ?


"but for low income straight white people, for example, it simply doesn't help them where they need help the most"

What if "others " had the same disrespect for your SWP concerns??
Called them petty ? Or vendettas ?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141912597

[LanternWaste]

131. Idiots trivialize social equality and concerns as petty

Idiots trivialize social equality and concerns as petty and divisive. Idiots also pretend that's not what they are in fact, doing.

Thankfully, I'm not calling any one person an idiot. Simply describing what idiots often do.