I don't believe anyone automatically, whether the accuser or the accused.

[pnwmom]

I take serious allegations seriously and I wait to see what evidence there is on both sides.

Sometimes there is a trial that we should wait for before deciding anyone is guilty. In other cases there will be no trial and all we can do is try to assess the information that comes out publicly.

I don't have to automatically believe Tweeden because she is a woman OR because, after seeing a mountain of evidence, I believe Moore's many accusers and think he's guilty as hell. The situations of Franken and Moore are NOT the same.

[comradebillyboy]

1. I agree

[LisaM]

2. I agree; there's a pack mentality going on.

And I do think different situations warrant different responses - it also behooves us to see how the people are acting now.

I don't even like Mark Halperin but, if he is to be believed (and I presume this is provable), when the incidents occurred at ABC news, he went and sought treatment for it and did not return to that job. I think that means he should probably not be subjected to the same level of vitriol or backlash as Harvey Weinstein.

I know women are subject to all kinds of things - I've been groped by strangers, I had a guy jerk off in front of me at a bus stop, I used to work at a store where men made remarks about my co-workers (college coeds at the time). All bad. It's not the same experience as my friend who was violently raped, abducted, and held hostage for a number of hours with duct tape over her eyes (and who was brave enough to remember enough things about what happened that they caught the guy).

I really need to sort out my thoughts. I'm not going to have a knee jerk response to anything at this point.

[marble falls]

3. I agree....

but I also believe in light of Tweeden's latest statements and the accounts of other women who worked for the Senator and the Senator's work for women's issues and his own statements - he's no abuser.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Exactly. In the past, women's complaints of sexual harassment

were too often dismissed or not taken very seriously. We know now that false complaints are actually quite rare because women would get so much shit for even real complaints that there was seldom an up-side for making a false one. Nevertheless, there's a big difference between taking a complaint seriously, which should always happen, and believing without question every single word and every single detail. I am afraid that we are reaching a point where we are so invested in believing and supporting women (which is a good thing) that no complaint will ever be questioned for fear of being accused of sexism and/or not supporting women.

Just today a fake twitter account accused Sen. Blumenthal of rape, and of course the Trumpites picked it up and ran with it. https://www.thedailybeast.com/a-twitter-account-with-two-fake-ids-accused-a-democrat-of-assault-then-pro-trump-sites-ran-with-it Men are being justifiably outed now for past bad behavior, but will we see more of this that doesn't pass the smell test? Will the Trumpites take advantage of the new ethos of believing women to plant false stories of assaults by prominent Democrats, and if they do, will we be obligated by the new ethos to assume without question that the complaints are true? Shouldn't we treat them like any other evidence - don't dismiss it out of hand, but before piling on somebody, try to get some verification?

[nini]

5. Agreed

I try not to decide until more info is available and I admit it's tough at times.

[LisaL]

6. I don't either, despite all the recent proclamations that we have to believe everybody

that comes up with accusations.

[trof]

7. YES! Thank you. K&R

[PatSeg]

8. Thank you, very short and to the point

We have to keep some perspective as more and more accusatory stories come out. Respect the women and give them a voice without dismissing them, but don't be quick to judgement toward either the accuser or the accused.

[Mr. Ected]

9. So many of these incidents boil down to "he said, she said"

With no witnesses or corroboration...or trial...that we are left to discern that answer for ourselves with less than optimal evidence on the record. That being said, it should be fairly obvious that Cosby, Weinstein, Trump and Moore are guilty as charged, while the jury is still out on Franken for a breach that pales in comparison to the others.

[pnwmom]

11. Yes. "the jury is still out on Franken for a breach that pales in comparison to the others."

[uponit7771]

14. +1, in all that you named there are multiple people coming forward with the same MO on the accused

... that doesn't negate the accusers nor the accused.

[bullimiami]

10. BAM!. Thank you.

[lame54]

12. Thank you

[madamvlb]

13. Ive told my story here a few years ago.....

i was an E-2 (private second class) in the US Army while stationed in Germany I was raped. I was drinking the night before and was pretty drunk, went to my room laid on my bed to go to sleep fully clothed and left my door unlocked. I woke up in the early AM with a SSG on top of me with my tampon on the floor and obviously I was raped....I pushed him off me and called for the CQ (charge of quarters) to call the Commander. Long story but I had to stand at attention in front of a few men for hours only to be told to go back to my room. I was subsequently given an article 15 and lost rank and pay for leaving my door unsecured. My rapist retired a few years later. I’ve never gotten over it. It bothers me to this day. When I made Sergeant I was asked to give sexual harassment classes! I’m now retired from the Army and had a wonderful career but if I ever ran in to that son of a bitch I would....well I’m not for sure but if it ever happens I’ll let you know.

[uponit7771]

15. So sorry for this, my goodness ... good on you for saying something cause it might be

... that one instance where the person isn't given any room later on in life.

Sick ass'd bastards

[pnwmom]

18. madamvlb,

your story has the ring of truth. I'm so sorry -- and outraged -- that that happened to you.

[loyalsister]

16. To not believe them is one thing

To actively work to smear and discredit victims is how sexual predators silence victims. Pedophiles threaten children with embarrassment, powerful predators label victims liars who preyed on them because- boys will be boys. Meanwhile they threaten professional and social opportunities.

Whether you believe it or not, participating in any of that either furthers abuse, or initiates it by validating threats perpetrators have made to damage their lives.

[moriah]

19. Agreed on not lowering ourselves to their level just because they do it to us. Nt

[pnwmom]

20. As I said, "I take serious allegations seriously." That doesn't mean

trying to smear and discredit victims. It means trying to consider evidence objectively.

[moriah]

21. Yep. Even when it's something we don't want to believe.

Truthfully, for intellectual honestly, *especially* when it's something we don't want to believe about someone we respect.

It's that lack of intellectual honesty that (at least initially, heard numbers have dropped, need to look at more recent polling) made the accusations against Moore *gain* him more support among Evangelicals. They didn't want to believe. So it couldn't be true.

We have to be able to step back, and if nothing else, decide that we absolutely don't want *any* allegation to be true because it would mean a victim has been harmed, so *all* should be objectively heard out -- without emotions either way making us rush to judgment.

[moriah]

17. We just have to be willing to have an open mind and *listen* to any alleged victim.

Whether, after trying to take your own emotions about the accused or the alleged victim out of your reasoning process, and after listening to what they have to say, you believe them....

... that's something completely different.

All people making allegations should be heard out with an open mind. But an "open mind" doesn't necessarily mean the intellect must be totally tossed out, either. More effectively, emotion is what should be be discarded for that moment.