Michigan gym reportedly bans woman over gender identity complaint

[Omaha Steve]

Source: Faux News

A Michigan gym reportedly canceled a woman’s membership after she refused to stop telling other members that “a man” was using the women’s locker room.

Yvette Cormier told MLive.com that the incident occurred at a Planet Fitness on Feb. 28 when she walked into the woman’s locker room and was “freaked out” because there was “a man” in there.

When Cormier told the front desk, employees told her that the person identifies as a woman. Cormier took her case to the gym’s corporate office, but was told that they would not tell the person to stay out of the women’s locker room because the gym is a “no judgment zone.”

Cormier returned to the gym each day between Monday and Thursday, MLive.com reports. She said she told other women about what she saw.

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/08/michigan-gym-cancels-woman-membership-over-complaints-transgender-woman-in/

[Demeter]

1. This is the end of communal locker rooms

I sincerely hope.

Women are far too vulnerable as it is.

There certainly could be a private room for such cases that require more privacy.

[Oktober]

2. Separate but equal rarely passes legal muster...

The law is moving towards the total inclusion and folks are just going to have to accept it...

[Demeter]

3. NO, I am not willing to accept invasions of privacy and safety

not for myself, not for my daughters, not for any woman.

A member of DU has as her sig line:

"Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." -- Margaret Atwood

And any biological male, due to the inherent differences in muscle mass, is able to overpower all but the most exceptional woman.

[MillennialDem]

5. So what is your solution for trans women at the gym? I don't look like a man and haven't since

2005.

I can't use the men's locker room or bathroom without guaranteed to be harassed or likely being assaulted or arrested.

[Demeter]

6. Why don't you re-read my first post, hmmm?

[MillennialDem]

8. Ok. So are you saying a 3rd changing room? Guessing it will cause a lot of issues with people

actually all wanting to use the private room. What happens when a trans woman shows up and someone is already there? What if there are two trans women at the gym at the same time?

Also what about bathrooms or are you cool with those because of stalls?

[jhasp]

27. Our local Y.

At our local Y there is a men's locker room, a woman's locker room and a family locker room. The family locker room has a large common area and then five (i think) rooms with showers and toilets and rooms to change. The men's locker room has individual shower stalls where people can undress and shower and get dressed. I think this works well and would work well in this case.

[MillennialDem]

29. It might until some assjack complains about a trans woman in the family locker room or about

trans women getting access to the unisex bathroom. I remember reading the case where a guy was bitching about how this woman transitioned at his job and since the women didn't want to share a bathroom with her the company built a special 1 room bathroom for HER only.

I suppose though some assholes will complain about trans women and men until transition is outlawed

It's a tricky situation and I didn't want to belittle your suggestion BTW.

Like I said when I went to the gym (now I have a home gym in my basement) I wouldn't change at the gym even less because of the trans aspect and more that I just don't like changing in the presence of strangers and even moreso don't like them changing in front of me. I'd just change at home, workout, then drive home in sweaty clothes and shower/change at home.

Of course I can't really fault other people who do want to change at the gym or have to because they have to work out right before or right after work or school and the gym has limited hours etc.. And also it doesn't stop issues with trans people in public bathrooms because we have to take a piss just like everyone else.

EDIT: removed offensive word

[wordpix]

80. I welcome all transwomen into my ladies room

If you identify as a woman, welcome. I'll stand up for your right to be there.

[cab67]

21. not necessarily.

Especially when it comes to transgendered women. Hormone replacement tends to cause a sharp drop in muscle mass.

[MillennialDem]

30. That is absolutely is a YMMV thing btw. Some trans women get stronger after transition because they

start caring about their body and start working out and/or they're ok being a muscular woman but weren't ok with being a muscular man.


Having said that, there are trans women who commit crimes but during and after transition trans women seem to be absolute saints when it comes to crime aside from substance abuse problems. The last thing we want is to get in trouble with the law because of how shitty the law treats us. A trans woman's biggest fear is usually getting thrown into a men's jail or prison.

[demigoddess]

41. also if someone is a female in her brain, I doubt

very much if she is going to feel like attacking women. It is the male brain that allows that kind of behavior. A trans can share a changing room with me any time it comes up.

[daleanime]

22. I understand the worry and I'm not trying to be snarky....

but do you think a sign on the door would stop some one who has assault on their mind?

[uppityperson]

47. "any biological male, due to the inherent differences in muscle mass, is able to overpower all but..

"any biological male, due to the inherent differences in muscle mass, is able to overpower all but the most exceptional woman"?

Seriously? You seriously believe that there is such a huge sexual dimorphic difference between human males and females that me, the middle aged wide hipped woman in good shape working out at the gym, would never be able to overpower "any biologic male" unless I am "exceptional"?

Seriously?

I am "exceptional" because I can throw a "biological male" to the ground?

Well, thanks for making your point clear.

[pnwmom]

4. It always has been legal with regard to bathrooms and locker rooms. Have you

heard of any city or court ruling that has banned single-sex restrooms?

I think the solution might be to change codes to require buildings to have at least some single-occupant gender neutral restrooms and changing areas.

[Oktober]

7. Still won't fly...

Draws attention to them and forces them to self identify...

Not the way the winds are blowing...

[pnwmom]

10. Has a single city or judge been affected by those winds?

I think you're imagining them.

Having a gender-neutral option available doesn't force anyone to self-identify. And it would also be useful for disabled people who needed assistance and for parents and children.

[Oktober]

11. I suspect that you can create them...

... and some may choose to use it.

Where it gets sticky is forcing folks outside of the traditional genders to utilize it.

[LiberalArkie]

23. Where I used to work they had 2 male and 2 female bath rooms.

The took the 2 in the middle and made them unisex. On body complained as before if the 2 guys bathrooms were busy you had to wait. Now everyone has gained 2 more shower/restrooms. They only lost 2 single sex rooms.

[Petrushka]

9. Transgender woman in Planet Fitness locker room controversy says she used it twice to hang up coat,

Transgender woman in Planet Fitness locker room controversy says she used it twice to hang up coat, purse

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/03/transgender_woman_says_she_onl.html

[Demeter]

13. Then how, pray tell, was anyone able to detect the presence of a man?

[Humanist_Activist]

14. Why not ask the fucking bigot who kept saying that she's a man to everybody? n/t

[Petrushka]

17. Photos on Carlotta's Facebook page might provide an answer.

[One_Life_To_Give]

40. Why do so many call Brittney Griner a Man?

When people use stereotypes of what someone is supposed to Act or Look like, many mistakes are made.

[Humanist_Activist]

44. Well, in the case of this poster you are responding too, because transgenderism isn't a thing...

its a fad.

[uppityperson]

46. She wasn't and didn't detect the presence of "a man".

[dolphinsandtuna]

12. If it bothers her, exercise somewhere else.

I agree with a writer above, in a sense. Someone who has transitioned, fine. But someone who has not, you have no idea if they are trans or a predator.

[Yo_Mama]

15. That's a concern for public restroooms, I agree - but this is a private facility

I have known several women who have been raped in public restrooms, and one who was robbed. The safety concern is real and should not be discounted.

But in a private facility, management knows who is using the facility, so the safety issues aren't applicable.

[dolphinsandtuna]

16. I think that's not correct

Anyone who uses the gym can be there, I assume. Unless there's video of the doorway, they have no idea who uses the restrooms, and even then the video is only after the fact.

[Yo_Mama]

31. It was a locker room, not a rest room.

And isn't this a membership gym??

She wasn't wrong to ask in the first place, but once she was told that the staff knew of the situation and that nothing weird was going on, well....

[Ms. Toad]

19. Were the rapists presenting as female at the time?

If not, then prohibiting transwomen from using the women's room has nothing to do with physical safety.

[Yo_Mama]

32. It's not a matter of preventing transwomen.

Honestly, once someone transitions no one's going to think anything of it, and transvestites don't usually raise a red flag either.

Having the ability to prevent men from going into public multi-use women's restrooms is necessary on safety grounds.

[Ms. Toad]

60. Really? The woman in question is living as a woman,

and obviously someone did think something about it or we wouldn't be discussing it.

Many transwomen cannot afford to, or choose not to, have SRS or facial feminization surgery. These women still need to be able to use women's facilities because the male facilities are - literally - life threatening.

Not to mention that once you have gone through puberty in a male body, even with SRS and FFS, it is sometimes still difficult to pass - and "passing" should not be a prerequisite to having your gender identity respected..

[7962]

79. Not according to everyone who answered my posts.

Its supposed to be fine because my daughter has "probably seen a penis before"

[Humanist_Activist]

86. Your daughter is 21 fucking years old, stop using her as an excuse for your transphobia. n/t

[7962]

88. Oh, transphobia my ass. I guess you agree with #54. Let everyone in!

This faux-hysteria is really something. No one here thinks a man will take advantage of a situation like this soon enough? We all know how some men are. I AM a man, I know there are a lot of sick bastards out there who care nothing about how women feel.
I asked the opinion of 8 women that I know very well, all over 30, all fairly liberal (except one) and they all had the same response. And again, they all also asked why there couldnt be a few simple private areas. I'll take their word for it since I'll never be affected by the situation.

[Humanist_Activist]

89. I have a simple question, where are transgender women supposed to go to change in the gym?

Or go to the bathroom?

Also, what the fuck is up with this hysterical concern trolling about "creepy crossdressers in the bathroom" meme of the TERFers? Seriously, you people are one trick ponies.

[7962]

91. There should just be some private areas for anyone to use. Simple

Wouldnt cost much money, and a few women I know already hate changing around other women with "swimsuit model" bodies, as one puts it.
I'm not talking about crossdressers, just the fact that some men will take advantage of ANY chance to intimidate a woman

[Humanist_Activist]

93. No, at first you said that pre-op transgender women should be banned from women's locker rooms...

are you changing your mind?

In addition, not every gym has private changing areas, they should, but some don't, should transgender people be banned from these places?

[Ms. Toad]

18. And how do you define transitioned?

Had their birth certificate changed? (A legal impossibility for many)
Had full sex reassignment surgery? (A financial impossibility for many)
Taking hormones? (A financial impossibility for many)
Presenting as female full time?
Presenting as female at the time she is using the gym?

Transitioning is more a process than a line one crosses - and depending on your definition, many may never meet your criteria.

As for "you have no idea" - many trans women who went through male puberty will never (without facial feminization surgery) be able to pass as female, and from what it appears you are saying, may never qualify because you will always see them as a potential predator.

Forcing these women to use the men's room is far more likely to result in violence than permitting them to use the women's room.

The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Projects, which tracks the murders of people in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and HIV affected communities in an annual Hate Violence Report, has found that trans women are disproportionately impacted by murder. In 2010, 44 percent of LGBTQH (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and HIV-affected) murder victims were trans women, and in 2009 trans women were 50 percent of murder victims. Yet trans people as a whole are only about 1 percent of the LGBTQH population. Trans women also more often experienced multiple forms of violence and more severe violence, as well as more police bias and violence.

http://transfeminism.tumblr.com/on_violence_against_trans_women

http://tdor.info/

[7962]

92. When the hell did "queer" get added into that? Isnt that supposed to be offensive?

[Ms. Toad]

94. LGBT people have been reclaiming it.

If an LGBT person (or in some cases an ally) uses it, it is fine. If it is used against someone, it isn't.

That said, there are LGBT people, particularly older ones, who find "queer" offensive.

I belong to a group that includes "Queer" in its name. We wrestled with the name a long time - partly because some of our members still find the term offensive. But we added it because a number of our members didn't fit in any of the other categories. One in particular stands out - the straight wife of a gay man. She self-defines as "queer" (As do quite a few of our younger members - particularly those for whom transgender does not fit their gender identification. Many of them self-identify as gender queer.)

[7962]

20. So did she see the person nude or what? The article didnt say.

If there was a penis visible, I dont care WHAT she identifies herself as, she shouldnt be allowed in a womens locker room. But if its a case of a "manly looking" woman, then tough shit for the complainer.
But the bottom line is that women should be able to feel safe inside a locker room or rest room.

[Ms. Toad]

25. So you would require costly SRS, which most transgender women cannot afford

and many choose not to have before you agree to treat them as women? That makes money the gatekeeper to being treated as a woman. Not to mention that unless the surgery is done by one of the very few skilled surgeons can be a health disaster

SRS (= sexual reassignment surgery).

Yes, women should be able to feel safe inside a locker room or rest room - including transgender women who would likely be subject to extreme violence if forced to use the men's room.

Please cite for me the number of rapes carried out in a locker room or rest room where the rapist presented as a female to gain access to the facility. Fear of transgender women (as a group) is not objectively reasonable.

I would agree that there are women, particularly those with some form of PTSD from rape, whose emotional needs for a penis-free environment should be accommodated. I fell in that category for a number of years. But that accommodation should not impose the cost on transgender women. Rather, single stall facilities should be available for anyone who feels the need to use them. That may be a transgender woman (many are acutely uncomfortable entering women's rooms - even when they do not have to disrobe - because they are aware that they may make other women uncomfortable), it may be someone who rejects the gender binary (and doesn't feel comfortable in spaces labeled either male or female), or it may be someone with personal emotional baggage (like I was for about a decade), or it may just be someone who is not thrilled with gang showers.

But the transgender women, who are raped and murdered at a higher rate than cis-gender women, should not bear the brunt of accommodating objectively unreasonable fear, at a price which likely increases their own physical safety.

[7962]

28. Sorry, I'm not budging on this point. My 21 yr old daughter doesnt need to see it

Have a private room or whatever, but there should also be some understanding that an open womens locker room or shower shouldnt have a penis in it. Many women of all body types would probably appreciate private rooms anyway. Not to mention the opportunity for sickos out there to take advantage of this. Men are more than willing to take advantage of a situation and its only a matter of time before we see it.
Maybe I'm a prude or whatever, but there has to be a line somewhere.

[Humanist_Activist]

33. So we are supposed to discriminate against and ostracize pre-op MtF transgender to satisify your...

"prudeness"?

And what was the point of bringing up your daughter?

[7962]

36. Because I'm not the one who'd be in a womens locker room. She would be.

And for all the smart asses out there, yes, i'm sure shes "seen a penis" before. PF should alter the locker rooms to have some private areas available. It would probably be appreciated by many TG people as well. It wouldnt cost much to do it either.

[Humanist_Activist]

39. I'm sure they already have that, along with lockers and common areas.

Doesn't stop bigoted dipshits from raising a stink though.

[LeftyMom]

34. Odds are extremely high your 21 year old daughter has seen a dick before.

Rumor has it half the planet has one.

Jesus Christ, these threads are dumb.

[azmom]

35. LOL So true

[7962]

38. Yes, and that has nothing to do with this story

Glad you think that since a woman has seen a dick before, she shouldnt be bothered by seeing one anywhere regardless of her choice. PF should spend a few bucks and build a few private changing areas and the problem is solved. And trust me, its only a matter of time before some sick bastard takes advantage of this. Some men will do anything. You rarely read of women secretly taping people or exposing themselves, but men will damn sure do it.

[LeftyMom]

42. The only trans crime wave is the abuse and victimization of trans people.

You're imagining a problem that does not exist.

It's a ridiculous scenario. Rape is about power and hatred of women. Rapists aren't going to disguise themselves as women any more than Klansmen are going to put on blackface and try to sneak into black churches.

The risk to trans people in male spaces, on the other hand, is documented and entirely real.

[Humanist_Activist]

45. Did you look at this trainwreck?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026325346

Its fucking atrocious what transphobic dipshits can get away with.

[azmom]

50. It's disgusting. They have no shame.

[Humanist_Activist]

52. Oh, I ended up getting a bullshit hide in that thread, from one of the concern trolls there...

yet I couldn't get a hide on a post calling transgenderism a fucking fad. This website is fucking pathetic.

[azmom]

53. Good god, that is offensive.

[LeftyMom]

62. It's appalling.

I've been asking the admins for ages to please clarify the rules because juries aren't handling transphobia well, or get more aggressive about kicking the obvious bigots out, or better yet to do both.

And then I listen to the sound of crickets while tumbleweeds roll through my browser.

It doesn't help that some of the worst offenders are obvious zombies who've been banned for their transphobia before, in some cases more than once.

[Starry Messenger]

65. +++

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

67. You are hopelessly lost on this topic. Stay at home where the world is the way you like it.

[7962]

68. Looks like you're the lost one; you're a month behind.

And go ahead and ignore the realities of sick men out there that we see every day

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

69. Sick men dressed as women in Gym locker rooms committing sick acts? You have a link for that, right?

[Cal Carpenter]

95. Of course not. Some people refuse to see that the real threat

is against transgender women being attacked in a men's bathroom or locker room. Or anywhere, really, for that matter. They can't see it because they are blinded by bigotry and irrational fear. They can't see that trans women are vulnerable enough as it is to violence and even moreso if they are forced to use men's facilities .

I guess, for some, the actual well-being and safety of all people is less important than some twisted bogeyman inside the minds of bigots.

[msanthrope]

63. I love this post and want to buy it a drink. nt

[CreekDog]

75. Wow, you want to discriminate so that your daughter won't see a penis?

It gives context to many of the arguments you have on DU.

[7962]

76. Bruce Jenner proved my point just the other night

In your world where nothing is offensive except things YOU find offensive, Jenner would be allowed in the womens locker room because he identifies himself as a female. Yet in his interview, he said he has always been attracted to women and still is. So to you, theres absolutely nothing wrong with Jenner, who still has his penis and is sexually attracted to women, using the ladies locker room.
Yeah, ok.

[Humanist_Activist]

77. No there isn't, should lesbians be banned as well.

What the fuck is your malfunction?

[7962]

78. You're hilarious. Do lesbians wear ID tags? Jeeze.

Just like a gay man in a mens locker room. How do you know someone's gay? You one of those that think they advertise it?
Jenner has a penis, lesbians dont.
Have some private changing rooms and the problem is solved.

[Humanist_Activist]

85. What do you want, full body scanners at the entrance to every locker room and bathroom?

Or genital checks at the door? Seriously, what do you need to reassure you that your daughter is protected from the dreaded penis?

[CreekDog]

82. where did you attend medical school?

[7962]

83. "medical school" has nothing to do with it. I'm sure YOU did though right?

If so, I bow in your greatness.

[CreekDog]

84. No I didn't, but unlike you I didn't propose a policy solely based on a physical observation

and you don't have a single bit of expertise on this topic.

[7962]

87. True; my expertise is limited to knowing women who dont want a penis visible in their changing room

I'll go with those I asked since I'm not a woman. But ALL of them asked "why arent there any private changing areas?" Which would take care of everyones issues. It wouldnt cost much to have a few simple petition type areas. A lot of women are self conscious to start with

[Humanist_Activist]

90. But only cisgendered women, transgender women apparently don't exist in your world..

in addition, I doubt the changing areas aren't private. Do we even know the layout of the locker rooms here, don't they have niches for private changing and a common room for other stuff, such as putting away clothes?

[azmom]

37. All great points. As a feminist, I concur.

[uppityperson]

48. This article says ""looked like a man" and was wearing men's clothing".

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/03/transgender_woman_says_she_onl.html

(clip)

Sklodowska said she asked about the locker room policy regarding transgender individuals before entering the women's locker room.

"You use the locker room that corresponds with how you are dressed," she said the Planet Fitness employee told her.

Cormier has said the transgender woman she saw in the locker room "looked like a man" and was wearing men's clothing.

According to Sklodowska, she wore leggings and a baggy t-shirt during both trips to the gym. She said many people tell her she looks like a man, and she could see why Cormier would see her body structure as masculine.

[IVoteDFL]

24. PF clearly did the right thing

The woman should have realized her mistake when the employees told her that the other woman is trans. The correct response would be to apologize and move on, not to pester the other women at the gym with her bigotry.

I admit I am surprised to see this comes from the gym that provides pizza, bagels, and soda for it's clients. PF is fine if you don't really care about fitness too much, but this is one thing that they are good for if you just wanna run on a tredmill without some asshole judging you they're are great.

[uppityperson]

49. Indeed, they did the right thing, agree with your take on what the other woman should have done.

[Android3.14]

26. It's a conundrum, definitely

On the surface, it looks like the real take-away is that conservative women with body anxieties shouldn't be hypocrites.

[valerief]

43. How very Michigan. nt

[Turbineguy]

51. Locker room etiquete

Not polite to look at another's peepee.

[Reter]

54. Locker rooms should always be gender-neutral

Separate gender bathrooms, showers, lockers, etc. should not exist.

[TwilightGardener]

56. I can choose not to use a membership gym locker room. But I can't avoid bathrooms.

I do NOT want strange men allowed into a multi-stall bathroom with me. That is a safety issue and a privacy issue, not a discriminatory issue--women are more vulnerable in those situations, the chance for predation against women from a man taking advantage of the situation is high. The answer is to provide a gender-neutral option for a private restroom, or a bank of separate locking rooms for stalls.

[Ms. Toad]

58. These are not men. They are women.

Their body structure is different - as it the body structure of many other women. It is not a physical safety issue - although for women who have had men's bodies used as weapons against them it may be an emotional safety issues. Those women should be accommodated, without forcing trans women to publicly identify themselves (by requiring them to use separate facilities) or by making it unsafe for trans women to use public facilities (by requiring them to use men's facilities).

Seriously - how many rapes or attacks can you list in which the rapist disguised himself as a woman to gain entry to women's bathrooms or showering facilities? Please provide links, if you continue to insist it is a safety issue.

[TwilightGardener]

59. I'm not talking about transgender. I wouldn't be afraid or upset about

a transgendered woman using a bathroom with me--I probably wouldn't even know it, and don't really care anyway. I'm talking about bathrooms being wide open to either gender, with no modifications to the physical set-up (you know, the flimsy open stalls, open at the bottom and top) for women's safety.

[Ms. Toad]

61. No one is suggesting they should be wide open to either gender.

They are suggesting that transgender women should be able to use women's facilities because they are women. It is a transgender woman, using the women's facilities, who set off this fury in the first place.

And if you are concerned about rapists masquerading as women to prey in women in the bathroom, do you really think discriminating against trans* women by forcing them to subject themselves to the life-threatening risks associated with using the men's room will discourage rapists?

[TwilightGardener]

64. Post #54 did. I don't care about transgender anybody using any facility.

I'm merely addressing why a lot of places would have to spend a lot of money in remodeling to eliminate gender-sorted restrooms, as a larger issue. It seems easy to say "every facility should be gender neutral" but not that easy in practice.

[Ms. Toad]

66. Well, that's silly.

Using the current set-up in most facilities, making changing rooms omnisexual would increase the danger to women, most severely to transwomen.

Unless you are talking about limiting all facilities where clothing is removed to a single person (without labeling the room by gender). Having single person rooms which may be used by anyone regardless of gender is not the same as opening up the current women's facilities to men, since most current gyms have partly or completely open changing areas.

[MosheFeingold]

72. No woman

Wants to see this old man naked.

And men's locker rooms always have that old hairy guy who uses the hair dryer too far south.

[WhoWoodaKnew]

55. This one is tough for me. Is there a simple solution?

[Humanist_Activist]

57. Uhm, yeah, don't discriminate? Really, what's tough here for you? n/t

[MosheFeingold]

71. I always assume the worst

This case seems a pretty clear cut case of a wing nut being an ass.

I am looking at this more broadly. There are always people who abuse things like this.

I could see a pervert, who is not really a transsexual, putting on a wig to get a chance to go peek at nude/semi-nude woman in a locker room.

And having had to deal with a sex offender who put remote cameras in a girl's changing room (lawsuit -- I am a retired lawyer), I can say this kind of thing happens.

I would think there could be some sort of card or doctors note requirement, not just "I feel like a woman today" so you can't arrest me.

Otherwise, this WILL get abused.

[wordpix]

81. what's tough? The woman wants to use a ladies locker room

She should be able to access it without a fuss. Don't discriminate based on gender identity, period. Discriminate based on how people act and treat others, and not on color, ethnicity, gender identification, etc.

[Sivafae]

70. This woman is just ridiculous. Let the other person be, would you?

Good on the gym for ejecting her. Had I run across this woman complaining I might slap her. At least now when I go to the gym, Planet Fitness mind you, I don't have to worry about running into assholes like her. Whew! It says me a trip to jail for assault.

[Nine]

73. reposting my response from another thread on this

Her membership was cancelled for harassing another member, not for lodging a complaint.

That said, while I oppose bigotry against transgender people, I can help but think that this policy is vulnerable to some abuse. The standard progressive viewpoint is that transgenderism shouldn't be defined by your operative state. Nor by the masculine or feminine expression of your clothing (i.e. a transgender woman shouldn't have to wear a dress; she is as entitled to wear jeans and a sweatshirt as any woman born with female genitalia). There are people who identify as "gender-fluid;" they may identify as female on one day and as a male on another day. And, obviously, transgenderism isn't defined by one's sexuality either.

All well and good, but if transgender status isn't defined by the physical state of your genitalia, nor by the clothing you wear, nor by your sexuality, nor even by what you identified as the day before, but only by what your brain tells you you are on a particular day... then it's pretty hard to determine how "sincere" a person who claims to be transgender is. On the other side of the equation are women (and girls) who want to feel safe when they are changing, showering, etc.. I wish I could feel like that side of the equation was being given the same amount of consideration as the other side of it.

[MosheFeingold]

74. Concur

I am loathe to have government or anyone else involved in this, but we all know there are bad people who will abuse this.

They always do.