Columbia University sued by male student in ‘Carry that Weight’ rape case
Source: Washington Post
Last fall, Columbia University senior Emma Sulkowicz began carrying a mattress around campus — a protest, she said, of how the school handled her sexual assault complaint against a fellow student. She didn’t name her alleged assailant, but as Sulkowicz’s story and the image of her mattress went viral, his identity soon became obvious. By the end of term, Paul Nungesser had been denounced on fliers and at rallies and former friends crossed the street to avoid talking to him.
Now Nungesser is suing his school, its board of trustees, its president and one of its professors, saying that Columbia failed to protect him from a “harassment campaign” by Sulkowicz even after a school disciplinary panel cleared him of responsibility in the case.
“Columbia University’s effective sponsorship of the gender-based harassment and defamation of Paul resulted in an intimidating, hostile, demeaning … learning and living environment,” reads the federal discrimination lawsuit filed Thursday, according to the Associated Press.
The lawsuit alleges that Nungesser’s rights were violated by Columbia and its officials for supporting Sulkowicz, and by professor Jon Kessler for approving the mattress-carrying piece as her senior thesis. Nungesser is a senior and German national, and his reputation and job prospects in the U.S. “are suffering immensely” because of the project, according to the lawsuit.
Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/24/columbia-university-sued-by-male-student-in-carry-that-weight-rape-case/?wprss=rss_homepage
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Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)What a entitlement-mentality over-protected rapist!
What about the terror, pain, shame, harassment, intimidation, hostile, demeaning, right-violating his rape of Emma and her subsequent treatment caused Emma?
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)"The lawsuit alleges that Nungesser’s rights were violated by Columbia and its officials for supporting Sulkowicz, and by professor Jon Kessler for approving the mattress-carrying piece as her senior thesis. "
Her thesis? Seriously?
This young woman obviously has no problem making herself widely known on campus. Good for her if she was actually raped; shas nothing to be ashamed of. Now, take it to the police department and have the alleged rapist prosecuted and put in jail.
Otherwise, I think her alleged rapist has a case against the university. After all, is he actually guilty of rape? Or just bad judgment in having sex with a young woman who will carry a mattress around for her senior thesis?
ETA - Ok, so the alleged victim went to the police a year and a half after the incident, but says she didn't like the questions the police asked.
MADem
(135,425 posts)For WHAT? They never published his name, they never pointed a finger at him and said "He did it." The victim of this rape isn't publicly saying "It's THAT guy" while she walks around with her mattress, and neither is the school.
People talk--his name got out there before this "thesis" idea ever came to the fore. If he didn't want shit, he should have departed the scene of the crime. And if the school was, in fact, "supporting" the victim, they should have tossed the perpetrator out on his ass for disruptive behavior, if not the actual crime of rape. Otherwise, he'd better just put on his Big Boy "Got Away With It" pants, keep his head down, and finish his degree.
One of the reasons that people (not just women) don't go to the police or other authorites when they are raped is because the first question they are often asked is "What did YOU DO that CAUSED the perpetrator to do this?"
I think you could benefit from some education on this topic.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I also have sons and daughters, and would actively encourage my son to sue any university that allowed this shit to go on even after the university found no evidence of a crime. The young woman went to the police a year and a half later and didn't exactly participate in having this guy prosecuted. Do you really think women like Emma and Jackie are helping rape victims? Emma has obviously made a name for herself and even won awards, but I don't think she's really helping the serious issue of rape.
MADem
(135,425 posts)What "shit" went on, precisely? The school never named the perpetrator in this crime, not once. This student is mad because the VICTIM wasn't shamed and told to shut up--and you're "OK" with that? What if the victim was YOUR daughter? Or your son?
You want your kids to go a school where censorship of the student body for what you regard as "unpopular speech" is practiced?
Well, they may have those kinds of schools in your neighborhood, but I'd hope Columbia never stoops so low.
Your last sentence is just ....bizzarre ... I hope you're not suggesting that she's "made a name for herself" as a cheery consequence of being a victim. And if people are talking about "the serious issue of rape" I'd say she's done a very good thing.
alp227
(33,116 posts)Even the most libertarian of free speech absolutists won't defend defamation as free speech.
MADem
(135,425 posts)This project is about the feelings of the woman carrying the mattress around, not the feelings of the (unnamed) perpetrator that caused her to feel the distress represented by the mattress.
alp227
(33,116 posts)despite ES not explicitly naming the rapist. ES had to know that people would put two and two together. It's so frustrating how people like Sulkowicz or the author of the "Rape on Campus" story use campus rape to get THEIR names out instead of helping the cause.
MADem
(135,425 posts)she's referencing a specific individual, even if SHE doesn't mention any names?
He has no right to constrain her speech. You know what the solution to speech is? MORE speech. Funny how he didn't feel free to pipe up and exercise his "right" until he was in the home stretch, and almost out the door. Could that be because there are more than a few people around campus, not friends of the alleged victim, either, who know this guy for what he is?
I think she's rather brave to speak of her experiences in the hopes of raising awareness, even if some would prefer that she shut up and go away. And I think by so doing, she is "helping the cause" even though you apparently regard her actions as some sort of weird self-aggrandizement exercise.
alp227
(33,116 posts)embedded in: http://jezebel.com/heres-the-full-complaint-in-the-mattress-lawsuit-agains-1699947812/+LeahBeckmann
that the President of ADP would notify its alumni board and several members that an alleged
rapist was living at ADP. This notification occurred.
On December 3, 2013, only a few days after Emma’s appeal had been rejected,
Paul was ambushed in front of his dorm by reporters from the New York Post and followed by a
paparazzo on his way to class. At that time, Emma was already being advised by a publicist and/or a lawyer with great media expertise, something she had threatened in her appeal letter in November 2013. Columbia was put on notice by Paul’s parents’ mail to president Bollinger, even before the article was published The article in the New York Post made clear that all three ccusers had spoken to the author Tara Palmeri and identified Paul to the reporters. This clear
breach of confidentiality had no consequences for the accusers.
There were also no consequences for the next breaches of confidentiality.
Starting at the latest in December 2013, Emma forwarded confidential information, including
Paul s name, to Anna Bahr, a student reporter and activist, whose subsequent article appeared on
January 23, 2014. This article did not include Paul s name, but did make him identifiable to
most of his peers on campus. 50.
What made this breach of confidentiality even more hurtful and unjust was the
fact that Paul, who was in Berlin on his way to his semester abroad in Prague with the
prestigious NYU Tisch program, was still under the confidentiality policy and faced disciplinary
action if he violated this policy. He also had been advised by Columbia University to ignore the
press publicity and to stay silent when Anna Bahr reached out to Paul for comment in the
preparation of her article. 51.
Even though the Anna Bahr article generated more than 60 comments in its first
11 hours online, Columbia University did not inform Paul of its appearance and did not do
anything else with respect to what was obviously a major breach of the University s
confidentiality policy. Only after Paul complained to Columbia University about this new and massive breach of confidentiality did University officials express concern and note the online
witch-hunt started in the comment section of the article. 52.
Columbia University, however, again did not penalize any of the accusers, who
once more had blatantly violated the University s confidentiality policy. 53.Instead, President Bollinger only two weeks later issued a statement
6
in which he announced a change of Columbia s policies with regard to sexual assault. He also announced that
This was documented by correspondence from Melissa Rooker on December 4 2013.
He was outed, a violation of university rules regarding the investigation, and subject to harassment likely on libelous grounds because of Sulkowicz's actions, and the university didn't do anything about it. How do you respond to this possibility? Do you really want a society where anyone can make shit up about others without consequence? Ask John Kerry (apropos to the Swift Boaters) about it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They've gotten mixed results.
I'm not buying anything written in that lawsuit--they can claim anything, until it's answered, it's just an accusation. As for that law firm, they have played fast and loose with facts at hand in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if they set up that DB interview as a "rollout" for their efforts. Their repeated use of the word "scheme" in their complaint doesn't play well with me at all.
http://jezebel.com/how-to-make-an-accused-rapist-look-good-1682583526#
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)
they can claim anything, until it's answered, it's just an accusation
MADem
(135,425 posts)but I'm not buying that.
There was no "accusation" made by that mattress. It was a performance art project that was a physical representation of victim-experience.
I hope this does go to trial, because I'd like to hear from the four victims of this guy. I expect the uni would call them if this guy doesn't drop the case.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)alp227
(33,116 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Definitely a real dumb ass there.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)we wouldn't have laws against libel and slander.
MADem
(135,425 posts)No name, no game. He wasn't libeled or slandered.
doxyluv13
(247 posts)First, did the faculty adviser know who the piece was about? Part of Nungesser's case is that the University gave Emma credit for a project that defamed him when their own adjudicating procedure had acquitted him. Also, did Emma ever tell anyone eat all that her piece was about Nungesser? That might be enough for legal purposes to prove he was identified.
MADem
(135,425 posts)That's the focus of the thing--how her situation makes HER feel, and the physical representation of her feelings is that mattress. That's what the faculty adviser approved, and that's what she carried out over the course of her senior year project.
The art project isn't about "defaming him" -- he's not mentioned. His name is not used anywhere in the project. The focus is on the student who is hauling the mattress around and her views and her "first person" perspective about how these events have made HER feel.
The school's own adjudication didn't find against him. It did not find FOR him, either. It didn't "prove" misconduct, is all--that's a bit different from "clearing" IMO. The "clear" word came from other than the university, because they just don't comment at ALL on matters that go before their board. They issued a statement saying as much.
He was identified in a police report--but the school had nothing to do with that. He could try suing his "alleged victim" for telling the police his name, but that would open him up to all sorts of questioning in a legal setting, and I suspect he wouldn't want to endure that, because it might not go the way he would like. His aquaintances/associates at school would also be subject to subpoena, as well.
Might not work out too well for him. I think he's trying for some "Shut up and go away" money from the school...but I imagine they've got lawyers up the ying-yang on retainer who just may not think that the school paying that kind of money over an issue like this sends a very good message.
Monk06
(7,675 posts)protection accrues to all students under Title IX of the Amendments to Education bill of 1972 and was specifically codified for women by Linden Johnson buy executive order soon after.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX
Adam the male accuser is filing a complaint against the University under Title IX regarding his claim he was assaulted by Nungesser.
So Columbia is obligated by law to take these claims seriously and handle them in a gender neutral way.
Nungesser's suit claims they didn't. They acquiesced, he claims, to Sulkowicz' alleged harassment of him and then subsequently supported her in writing through the student newspaper and provided transportation and other services in aid of her protests.
You may think he has no case but he does. It will play out in the courts where it should have gone in the first place but for her duplicity and lack of honesty. The first thing she had to do is convince the police that a crime had been committed but she could provide no evidence in the form of physical evidence or witnesses to the assault or subsequent injury.
It takes evidence to warrant a criminal charge. The single unsubstantiated word of the accuser is not good enough and it's a good thing it isn't.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)"After she reported her assault to Columbia, she appeared before a disciplinary panel, where she was forced to explain to a university official how the painful manner in which she had been raped was physically possible. Then the panel found her accused assailant not responsible. Two other students have accused the alleged perpetrator of sexual assaults, but he remains on campus. Sulkowicz joins us to tell her story."
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/16/a_survivors_burden_columbia_student_carries
Watch the entire video. At 8:35 in video, this is how rape victims are treated by police as a rule.
https://m.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)One accused him of well...I'm not sure what, but he was guilty of making her feel like he would break up with her if she didn't have sex with him, but she never accused him of sexual assault. He was found guilty of nothing there.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)He denies it, but it doesn't sound to me like something that would be prosecuted in most cases even if there was any proof of it.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)He grabbed her (including her rear), and attempted to kiss her. She got mad and that was that. Interestingly, she didn't even think there was anything wrong with him grabbing her butt, "cause guys do it all the time." sigh But, then, what do you expect from a mindset that thinks humping strangers on the dance floor is dancing? 
Definitely showing my age, here.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)And even if it were true, it's probably not something that would be prosecuted in most cases.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)nt
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)nt
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)Two other women were raped by this dude and had their cases dropped by the university. How come the police didn't get involved? Is his daddy a rich person or a politician? Or both?
cstanleytech
(28,194 posts)Why? I dont know but usually its because of a lack of evidence.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)than actually cooperating with police so that her alleged rapist does not rape again. The university, which has a lower standard than a real court of law, didn't find reason to believe that he was guilty.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I had earlier read that she was not interested in talking to the police, but in fact, the police closed the investigation due to lack of evidence, but she has always insinuated that she wasn't interested in pursuing justice through the courts.
Since the accused actually followed the school's code and did not speak to the press, it has taken quite a while for his side of the story to come out.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)We have adopted the new inquisition tactics of the accused being guilty when accused.
That gives people who want revenge for any reason lots of power.
Beauregard
(376 posts)That's why they put you in handcuffs and then a cell when they arrest you. If you weren't presumed guilty, the cops would give you a summons and let you go.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Although you might think so in our modern world...and neither are institutions.
Was this person arrested and charged with a crime?...no but he was denounced like they did to people in the Cultural revolution in China...punishment by social pressure is a repressive form of lawlessness.
candelista
(1,986 posts)Otherwise you would be released on your own recognizance. No bail. Actually, you would never be incarcerated before trial. So no bail would be needed. And you wouldn't have to put on a defense in court. The prosecution would have to do all the work.
"Innocent till proven guilty" is just an empty slogan they teach you in school.
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)"The majority of those inmates are stuck behind bars not based on their presumed risk to the outside community or likelihood to appear in court, but solely because they were unable to afford their bail bond."
"And the people who can’t afford to pay are not typically the high-stakes defendants with bail bonds set to the tune of $50,000 plus. Far more often the people with low-stakes bonds, between $50 and $1,000, are the ones that sit in jail, unable to work, accumulating bills and costing the taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars."
candelista
(1,986 posts)
Think about it. Don't just say what you memorized in school.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)to help assure that the defendant show up for trial. Even innocent people can run from the law. No?
Or maybe trial should be optional? 
candelista
(1,986 posts)The cops should just give you a summons and let you go.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Hey, don't throw him in the cop car...just give him a piece of paper!
We'll both show up in front of the judge next month....I PROMISE
candelista
(1,986 posts)The point is that is our actual legal practice is guilty until proven innocent, not that we should stop this practice. We should, however, stop lying about it by saying that people are considered innocent until proven guilty.
blueridge3210
(1,401 posts)Innocent until proven guilty is a central component of our legal system; it requires the state to prove the guilt of the accused, not the other way around.
Requiring the accused to post bond/bail if arrested in order to ensure appearance at trial is in now way in conflict with this standard. It is simply a way to allow the accused to resume (mostly) normal activities while awaiting trial and to avoid keeping a large number of people locked up while awaiting trial. Being arrested for an offense is not a presumption of guilt; it is simply part of the process when one is accused of an offense.
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)You would have found out that the courts use monetary means for people to walk out of jail (when they make bail) until their set court date. That money that they pay the court is refunded when they appear in front of a judge and jury and are found innocent. If you can't afford bail then you are locked up until your court date.
You have to remember that even though you're "innocent until proven guilty" you are suspected of having committed a crime, therefore the courts can legally keep you in jail. They also have evidence against you (whether its authentic or not) which further gives them probable cause to lock you up.
You're naive if you think a simple summons is going to make people appear in court just because of "innocent till proven guilty". If that were the case Ted Bundy and every other serial killer would have added to their kill counts while awaiting trial.
candelista
(1,986 posts)1. If people were presumed innocent there would be no reason to put them in jail. After all, they are considered "innocent." So there would be no purpose for bail.
2. Nowhere did I argue that we should stop the practice of presuming people to be guilty. Just that we should admit that this is our real principle, instead claiming the opposite.
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)1."You are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law". That slogan is exclusive only to the courts i.e. during your actual trial. Before that you stand accused of commiting a crime in which the state has a legal obligation to detain you due to evidence. Therefore quit presuming that this applies to all people suspected of a crime.
2. The law doesn't assume that someone is guilty. The law detains that person based on evidence that this is the person that perpetrated a crime. If they are detained without evidence then that is illegal. Is that concept that hard to understand?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)But the ideals are still there, we just have modified them for the sake of power and control.
And the facts are that we have a two tiered system of justice...if you are wealthy you get all the ideals in your favor, if not then you go to jail.
candelista
(1,986 posts)+1.
MADem
(135,425 posts)lf it's a crime on Main Street, it should be a crime in the quad. The REAL police should be called in and the REAL courts should prosecute. Schools discourage this kind of thing because "rape stats" are an element of their recruiting process.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)Meanwhile, the accused has records of them electronically communicating after the alleged rape.
And of course no charges were filed even after police learned about this situation.
MADem
(135,425 posts)how people who are rape victims process their circumstances knows this. Police are often reluctant to investigate if too much time has passed. That doesn't mean "this particular woman" isn't telling the truth about what happened to her. She hasn't done anything wrong. She's speaking out as she sees fit and it's not like she's walking around with his name painted on that mattress. Nor is the school doing anything wrong. They're not pointing any fingers at her accuser, nor are they censoring a victim from expressing herself.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time--even if the time is in the court of public opinion.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)He hasn't been charged with anything. But yet he should be considered guilty regardless?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Open the gate at Cedar Junction! Free at last!!!
Can't find the murder weapon or any bloody shoes, so he must be innocent...!
LisaL
(47,344 posts)She says one thing, he says another. Am I supposed to believe her but not him? Why?
He also has records of them electronically communicating after the encounter. In a cordial manner, with seemingly nothing amiss.
Seems very strange to me that if she is so upset that she would carry mattress around campus, she would be communicating with him in a cordial, friendly manner, before she made her accusations.
MADem
(135,425 posts)This ain't his first rodeo.
Do some research on PTSD. It might help you understand her reaction.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)Interestingly, neither accusation was made at the time it was alleged to have happened.
MADem
(135,425 posts)See how that shit works?
cstanleytech
(28,194 posts)Now thats not to say testimony doesnt help because it does help but without evidence testimony can only do so much and when its the sole thing you rely on you risk having potential cases like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial.
MADem
(135,425 posts)if we want to put a fine point on it, because this never got to a court, "school adjudication" notwithstanding.
This woman has a right to her art project. Whiny Guy needs to just deal with it and not expect the school to censor her so he can feel more beloved amongst his classmates.
The McMartin case DID get to court, and that's a different situation altogether that involved the testimony of coached children. It's just not appropriate or germane to even try to compare the two.
Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)No, she doesn't. Art project ideas, academic project ideas are rejected routinely for a host of reasons. She doesn't have a "right" to an art project and have the university sanction or endorse it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If the project was unsafe (say, involving fire in the dorm or unreasonable risk to life/limb) they could refuse it...but there's nothing dangerous in carrying a mattress around.
Let's hear your logic on this one. I'm interested.
Even though the school DID approve it (a good long while ago, too), and because they DID approve it, she has the right to carry it out--as she's been doing all this time.
Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)Putting the university at risk. Those sound good enough.
But she has no "right" to any art project she wants.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Bzzzz. Fail. How is the university put at risk? She might swing her matttress and hit someone?
She has a right to carry out the project that the uni approved.
Try again. Or don't.
Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)Your comments in this thread have demonstrated clearly to me that you are completely on her side in this matter and that somehow this man deserves what he gets.
You have also demonstrated to me that you are immovable and unpersuadable on this issue. So I choose to no longer engage.
Cheers.
Sparhawk60
(359 posts)The university is put at risk to the tune of a few (several?) million dollars. Please bear in mind, he is suing the school, not her. So what she does, or does not, have a right to has no bearing on the lawsuit.
I expect they will settle out of court with a non-disclosure agreement to keep the pay off amount hidden. That way the school and pretend it did nothing wrong. And the guy has a few mill to rebuild his life.
MADem
(135,425 posts)academic freedom.
The "sue crew" may not get what they're hoping for. They're suing the school, and trashing a student not part of their lawsuit in the attempt. I wonder how the courts will regard the accusations, particularly since the filing is already being torn apart owing to timeline and context issues.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)"I will carry this mattress around until he leaves campus" it seems it would be pretty easy to shoot down that art project. Especially since the university cleared him of rape.
MADem
(135,425 posts)She's not naming anyone in her art project, which is a detail you keep ignoring.
This project is about HER "carrying that weight" around, it's not about naming names.
If his name was stenciled on the mattress, he might have a case...but it's not. So he doesn't.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I think they will wished they had not caved to her ultimatum art project. But I'm sure her art professor thought it was oh-so-cool and edgy or whatever the current language is regarding this type of "art."
MADem
(135,425 posts)There are 26 days until Commencement at Columbia.
RobinA
(10,464 posts)my basis would have been that it isn't a project worthy of academic credit at a top tier university.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Not having seen her proposal, I'm not prepared to make assumptions about the validity of it. I'm guessing a professor at a top tier university knows how to distinguish a worthy and valid thesis project from one that is not.
cstanleytech
(28,194 posts)basing a case entirely on testimony coached or not thus its relevant IMO.
MADem
(135,425 posts)There was no court and there was no testimony in this case.
cstanleytech
(28,194 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)cstanleytech
(28,194 posts)you raised earlier. "You don't consider testimony as evidence? "
Snow Leopard
(348 posts)You would see differently if the roles were reversed but maybe not because you seem pretty sure he is guilty for some reason.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You're mistaken.
You don't know me at all.
doxyluv13
(247 posts)….have much higher standards of proof than campus court. And Emma's case couldn't even satisfy those low standards.
Another problem is Universities always have their own interest at heart, beyond justice for their students.
MADem
(135,425 posts)right after the assault happened, there would have been PLENTY of forensic evidence for the prosecutor to make a case. It was a violent encounter. If the guy thought he was emulating some of the cough porn literature cough that is popular of late, he was doing a poor job of it.
You are correct in that universities like to pretend that they're providing students with "services" when they offer crappy, student-staffed "rape crisis centers" and graduate student "counsellors" and "peer helpers" when what they are actually doing is trying to keep a crime away from the justice system so it doesn't impact their ability to recruit new blood to the campus.
doxyluv13
(247 posts)I thought one of the points was she didn't go to the police till almost 2 years later.
MADem
(135,425 posts)She relied on the campus process instead. Had the campus had a more proactive system in place when she matriculated, she might have made a better choice and gone to the ER and filed a police report instead of relying on a "misconduct board" to give her redress.
On the bright side, her experience has served as a template for victims in how to not try to get justice at Columbia. Leave the school out of it and head for the hospital, first; call the cops when you get there.
Apparently, she's one of FOUR people who have an issue with this guy, so at least she has company.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)So it's kind of misleading to claim she "relied on campus process instead."
MADem
(135,425 posts)She didn't have the tools to make a good decision in the first place. As I've said, perhaps if freshman orientation covered this--and she received education well before that, even in middle school or junior high about the reporting process, she could have overcome her trauma and cognitive dissonance earlier.
Her behavior is not uncommon. Most rapes are NOT reported. Still, even in this day and age.
phil89
(1,043 posts)to go to the ER? Isn't that common sense? Did she think she should wait two years? What are you even talking about?
MADem
(135,425 posts)historically discouraged students from seeking assistance outside of campus boundaries. They try to keep everything "in house" because the MINUTE a rape goes "on the books" in the community at large, they've lost control of it. If they own it, a rape can be downgraded to a simple assault, and bingo-bongo, your felony becomes a misdemeanor that is off the books in no time...if it ever gets on.
Student "rape crisis centers" and "counsellors" and all these "services" that are touted as benefitting the students are actually gatekeepers that put up a wall between victims and the justice system, but they are touted as evidence of university "caring" when actually they are methods that, first and foremost, protect the school.
She erred in waiting, but she probably thought she'd get some sort of redress from the school. More education on this subject needs to happen, and it should probably happen well before children become young adults and wander off to college. Once they get to college, it certainly bears repeating, but it's a protocol that should be understood early--and schools shouldn't be in a position where they are acting "in loco polis" because they aren't cops, and they aren't prosecutors, either.
This article hits the nail on the head:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/02/campus_rape_investigations_state_legislatures_debate_laws_to_bring_in_criminal.html
Colleges Aren’t Equipped to Investigate Rape
State legislatures are debating surprisingly smart laws to bring justice to campus.
here are few things we know with certainty about rape on college campuses, but here are two: It happens, and universities lie about it. A study published by the American Psychological Association shows that universities consistently underreport sexual assaults on campus and often seem reluctant to acknowledge rape when it occurs. Universities have everything to lose by admitting they have a rape problem—prestige and funding, for starters—and very little to gain by being honest. By underreporting statistics and treating victims with skepticism, schools can keep sexual assault quiet, even secret. And there’s one more thing we know about rape on college campuses: It thrives in secrecy.
...This mess is a pretty predictable consequence of the current system. Rape is a crime, and universities just aren’t equipped to deal with serious criminal wrongdoing. Title IX creates the kind of administrative remedies that might be able to fairly mete out punishment to a fraternity that marches across campus shouting “no means yes, yes means anal.” It does not give schools the tools to punish rapists. The result has been a stream of horror stories from women who face interrogation by administrators who don’t seem to know what a rape exam is.
...Frustrated with Title IX’s shortcomings, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and Virginia are experimenting with laws that could spur colleges and universities to start taking rape seriously. First on the agenda: forcing schools to open up lines of communication with law enforcement. New Jersey and Rhode Island are considering bills that would require colleges to report all sexual assault accusations to local law enforcement. The Virginia Legislature is wrangling over the details of a bill that would place police officers on the review committees that examine every rape charge; the officers would have discretion to refer certain cases to law enforcement. And in New York, Gov. Andrew Cuomo has proposed legislation that would require colleges to inform students that they have a right to report their rape to the police rather than keeping the matter internal.
...Yet there remains a real concern that reputation-minded administrators will subtly dissuade—or explicitly constrain—victims from taking their charges to the police. The trick is balancing the Clery Act’s command with legitimate fears that universities are sweeping sexual assault under the rug. New York’s proposed law strikes that balance nicely, requiring colleges to inform victims of their rights to bring in the police while giving them the option to forgo legal remedies in favor of administrative solutions.
....much more at link--worth a read.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)How would she expect to get a redress from the school if she didn't inform them?
But until she informed the school, she carried on with very friendly electronic communications with the guy she later accused.
She communicated with him both before and after the supposed rape. He even has a message from her where she tells him she loves him.
I would have to twist into a pretzel for that to make sense to me.
MADem
(135,425 posts)PTSD takes a variety of forms, as anyone who understands the condition realizes. Her behavior is not uncommon. If it were, then there would be no abused spouses who stay with their partners and excuse and justify their injuries despite being beaten.
How lucky for you that your life is so straightforward! Not everyone is so fortunate.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)Was she ever diagnosed with PTSD? Or did you get that out of thin air?
MADem
(135,425 posts)I will recommend that you go do some reading on the subject and come back to this discussion when you've done that.
In the interim, I think I'll record your comments for the record:
258. PTSD seems to be a convinient sort of way to explain any sort of behavior.
Was she ever diagnosed with PTSD? Or did you get that out of thin air?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)For all the complaints about university disciplinary systems (and there's plenty to complain about), the reason they were created was because criminal prosecutions of acquaintance rape are notoriously difficult. Under Title IX, universities are supposed to weigh the case by preponderance of the evidence: if they view it is more likely than not that student A sexually assaulted student B, they can take "appropriate" action (for some value of "appropriate"
.
A lot of people bristle at this idea, but it doesn't particularly bother me: I don't mind somebody being kicked out of school because they "probably" committed rape. It's not like they're going to jail or anything.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's putting the fox in charge of the henhouse and calling all those chicken murders 'accidents.' The university is inclined towards gaming the system towards "less likely" in order to preserve their Myth of A Safe Campus. Also, diverting the process to their "fake court" allows them to ignore their statistics altogether, especially if they are located outside a major metropolitan area in the countryside--they can instead take the "crime stats" of Turdblossom, Anystate (wherever they are located) and use those as "proof" they're a safe place to send one's children.
Their safety ratings impact their recruitment, their recruitment impacts their bottom line, their bottom line impacts the salaries of the fatcats running the joint. They aren't in the justice business, they're in the ass-covering business!
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)She has zero evidence of rape and he has exculpatory evidence (facebook communications between them following the alleged rape, which the university excluded from their investigation).
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress_Performance_%28Carry_That_Weight%29
candelista
(1,986 posts)Someone with less energy might have just put a sign around her neck. Mattresses are awkward and heavy to carry around.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)The below, coupled with the lack of any physical evidence is a case-killer for the girl:
"Afterwards they exchanged friendly messages with each other, including Sulkowicz writing (two days after the incident), "I feel like we need to have some real time where we can talk about life and thingz", but a few months afterwards they began to see each other progressively less.[14][15] The accused later released transcripts of their messages to each other to journalist Cathy Young, who is known for her reporting on the topic of rape. Sulkowicz expressed concern they would be used to present her as unreliable, and stated she had sent the messages because she was upset and wanted to talk to him about the incident but decided against doing so."
Kind of reading between the lines, it looks like the guy was a user and an asshole, but not a rapist.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And it's an art project that names no one, save the self-identified victim.
The "case" in play now is that the "alleged perpetrator" is angry because the woman who is naming herself as victim, but not naming any perpetrator, is being shunned by his former buddies because they think he's the perp, and that he's not a nice guy.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)He was cleared by the university, by the police and everyone who has every looked into the matter with an actual eye toward evidence.
At some point "protest" does become harassment. Approving the harassment of another student as a thesis project is disgusting, I hope Columbia loses in court.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Mostly because I want universities to get out of the business of adjudicating crimes, and get back into the business of education. When rape victims come forward, they should be told that they will be emotionally supported, but that the university will not do anything to the alleged perpetrator if the victim does to take the case to the police and cooperate with prosecution. That does not mean that the victim cannot be given as much emotional support as needed; but it does mean that a rape allegation won't destroy a young man's life without evidence of his guilt.
As a mother of sons and daughters, rape is a scary topic. I fear more for my daughters, but then I think what it would be like for my sons to get caught up in some young woman's drama, and I cringe.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Rape charges belong in the hands of the police, not university administrators.
This wasn't even that. The university cleared him and the police found no evidence for prosecution. This is precisely nothing but trial by public opinion and shaming, which the university is entirely complicit in.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And, to make things more frustrating, they're legally required to because they can use a lower standard of evidence there than criminal courts can, which makes it easier to actually kick out an attacker.
My own anecdotal experience is that if you have one student who has accused another of rape, one of the two will have left school within a year. The disciplinary process is a way to try to put some of that burden on the accused. It's got a lot of problems but it seems like the best idea anybody has come up with so far, and it's just about the only way a lot of sexual assault victims to get any sort of redress. There are a non-zero number of people who will use it maliciously, and this being college, there will always be a few people who have kind of lost tether with reality (honestly I think that is more common than an outright malicious false accusation), but that doesn't bother me all that much. People leave college for all kinds of reasons, and the needs of the student community as a whole should come first.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Any time the "B-word set me up" defense is what comes out of the accused's mouth, I smell a huge rat. Three women had issues with this guy. Three--not just one.
So three women had "young woman's drama?" Please.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Along with a coordinated campaign of harassment by multiple people as described in the article.
They were also found to be entirely baseless in what is probably the lowest standard of guilt proceeding in the criminal world (a university tribunal).
Gee I wonder what could be going on there.
Again, this is trial by public opinion against a student and officially sanctioned by the university. Lawyers will have a field day with this, especially given the university slandered him on their website AFTER officially clearing him.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You're parroting EXACTLY what the whining accused rapist is saying, and I am not buying it from you, either.
The only one who talked about "coordination" and "collusion" was the perpetrator. The other victims came forward after the rape charge was alleged.
Same thing happened with a guy named BILL COSBY. "Hell, that happened to MEEEE, too!!!" So yeah, GEE--I wonder what COULD be going on here?
No one is naming this guy, but in a limited and specific community, word DOES get around--he's the one who is calling more attention to himself with renewed attention to himself with this joke of a lawsuit.
Lawyers won't have a field day--he's got a bad reputation as a consequence of his OWN CONDUCT. Life sucks--he should change his ways.
He won't get a dime.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)All three women got together to accuse him.
Regardless, I look forward to sending you a PM when this is "settled out of court for an undisclosed sum".
MADem
(135,425 posts)And please--don't send me a "PM." Post it right here--because if you do send me a "PM" that is what I will do (they aren't P-for-Private anymore....they're DUMAIL, and they belong to DU...so they can be posted on the board. No rules like the old days, anymore).
Bookmark the thread, if you find it so important to defend this guy (I have a feeling he'll be in the news again for the same sort of thing), and reply to me in this thread when the case is settled.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I was probably just going to send a smiley face and a link.
I'd also rather not necro a thread for a personal reason. I think I'll just skip the whole exercise and have a drink instead when it happens.
Cheers.
P.S: What I find important is due process and the fair application of the law not defending any one individual. Mob justice is all fun and games, until society collectively pokes its own eye out with a pitchfork.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The university has no right to censor or stifle the views of the victim in this circumstance. Now THAT's actionable--not this "Waaah, nobody likes me" fail of a lawsuit. She hasn't used the complainer's name. She's simply illustrating her own truth, and he doesn't like it.
So his former FRIENDS know who he is? I submit they knew his reputation BEFORE this, and this situation merely confirmed what they suspected, and THAT's why they don't want to hang around with him--who wants to associate with a guy that three people (including a former girlfriend) have said is a sexual abuser? He needs to get himself correct, instead of expecting the school to do...what? Shut up a fellow student? His entire case is absurd. He'll be laughed out of court.
Plenty of people like to send abusive PMs--I'm of the mind that if one has something to say about a topic on the board, it's best to hash it out here. Even if no one else sees the thread again (and they won't, once it is archived, because they don't 'pop back up' after that time), it does get revisited with the person to whom the post is directed.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)And not engage in slander which it did on it's own website. They stated something completely contradicted by their own findings.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And since she hasn't used his name once, how can he complain about slander?
He's the one who is making the LEAP that her art project is about him. And his friends are shunning him...why? Ever stop to think it might be based on their reactions to HIS utterances in the past?
"Shit, I was willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt--I thought he was just a guy that liked to mouth off about all the swerve he caught...but now here's three women who have said he engaged in sexual abuse? Hmmmm...maybe this is an asshole I don't want to hang around with anymore...I don't go for that."
Students have a right to make judgments and act on them. What did he want the school to do? Play kindergarten teacher and force his classmates to share their toys and play in the Columbia sandbox with him?
He needs to get over himself.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)The problem with her "freedom of speech" is that is crosses into bullying with the explicit statement that she would stop when he leaves campus.
REVERSE the situation. Could a guy get away with anything remotely similar to this? Or how about just trying to get rid of any student you don't like?
There are more than first amendment issues here.
Fact is, this young woman accused this young man of rape. The school "cleared" him of rape, but did not step up and say so when his name became public. There should have been a statement to the effect "We found no evidence of rape or sexual abuse, but support the right of the alleged victim to take further action with the police. We take rape very seriously..." And at that point, I would not refer to her as a victim.
MADem
(135,425 posts)What's that even supposed to mean? Germans don't rape? Ask the French women during WW2 about that. People are engaging in "foreign student hating" amongst the Columbia student body (which has a ton of foreign students enrolled) ?
He didn't have any friends at the school? How many people do you think SHE knew before she showed up at college and started making friends? Who has a big circle of friends when they go to university?
These "arguments" you're coming up with are ludicrous.
She isn't "bullying" anyone. That's absolutely asinine. "Her rapist" in her art project is UNNAMED. See how that works? If he's feeling "bullied" it's because he's feeling responsible, not because she's painting his name on her mattress.
If I had to speculate as to the reasons that this guy is being shunned by his classmates, I would guess that he has had some conversations with his fellow students that cause them not to believe that he's as innocent as he's playing to the media.
It is not the school's job to "announce" how they have resolved any student misconduct issue. They didn't "name" him when he was accused, and they didn't "name" him when he was cleared. His name became a matter of public record only when a police report was filed, and that's well outside the university's province. And if you read the contents of the police report, it becomes challenging to continue to support the poor little "wrongfully accused" foreign student. I believe her when she says she didn't consent to being choked. If you think the university is going to weigh in on the merits of a police report, you'll be waiting for a long while.
The reason this guy was named, too, is because the school fell down on the job in terms of providing services to students--a situation they started to correct only AFTER this and other stories came to light on campus.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I don't believe her because there are no facts to support her. In fact, her messages make a pretty strong case that she was more interested in him than he was in her. Does that mean she couldn't have been raped? Hell, no. It just means there's nothing there to suggest that she was. Nothing. Her involvement with him. Her behavior afterwards. Nothing. There's definitely proof that she lied about a few things, however, like the fact that she stated that she had never discussed anal sex with him, when she clearly had. In fact, she was the one who brought it up in the messages prior to the alleged event.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)You embody the typical rape culture reaction to women who have the guts to talk about being raped. Everything she did afterwards is used as evidence against her. You have no compassion for how women who have been raped may behave after such a traumatizing experience, especially when the rapist is someone they know, or even are dating.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)every single day. It has taken years to get over the shit my child's birth mother did.
And, yes, I understand that rape victims don't always act the way we think they should act.
HOWEVER, this was an intelligent young woman at a prestigious university. She was not some woman who was dependant on a man to care for her. Or fearful of how her parents would react if they found out she was having sex. Or in a relationship with the guy 'cause he's her child's father. She wasn't some poor lonely, homely girl who didn't have any other friends. There was no reason for Emma to continue in a relationship with her rapist - in fact, pursue a relationship with someone who not only raped her, but supposedly almost murdered her by strangulation. Yeah, she accused him of strangling her. Yet no bruises, no nothing reported or seen afterwards. No screams heard. (She says she screamed.)
She's Jackie with a mattress.
Sorry, but PTSD does not send you running to the man who tried to kill you - not without a damn good reason. I'll still waiting for one.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Talk about being judgmental about women who are poor, have horrible families, don't have the chance to go to a prestigious university, isn't conventionally beautiful. They have reasons to stay with their rapist. Beautiful, intelligent women cannot react in anything but your approved way after being raped, or you will not believe them. As I said, I hope no woman trusts you enough to want to tell you about her rape (or person, really, but I haven't seen you be this judgmental towards men, rather the opposite, so I guess what they claim you'll believe)
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)That was the opposite of judgmental about "women who are poor, have horrible families, don't have the chance to go to a prestigious university, isn't conventionally beautiful."
And, no, I don't automatically believe everything I read and hear from strange people I do not know, and that especially goes for men since I am well aware that men do rape. And murder and assault in much higher numbers than women. I'm actually not a very trusting person at all
You don't live with the kind of trauma I have lived with and automatically believe that people are kind and nice. Some are rapists. Murderers. Child abusers. And quite a lot of people will lie about quite a lot of things.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)I am with the Wow on that as well.
That was disgusting to read, thank you for your efforts here KitSilya.
MADem
(135,425 posts)That's a real keeper.
I believe her because her report is credible to me. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's the unvarnished reason why I believe her. Not because of her gender.
What you don't know about this topic would fill several books. You've got Google at your fingertips--this might be a good time for you to do a little self-education on the issue of rape, on campus and elsewhere. Regard it as an opportunity to improve.
Here, let me get you started:
http://endrapeoncampus.org/
http://www.nsvrc.org/saam/sexual-assault-awareness-month
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)public university campuses. It's a topic I have been very interested in. I will soon be seeing this issue from the male point of view which is why this case interests me.
My oldest son is naive to the point of being too trusting and almost appearing dumb, but he's such a good, compassionate kid. And though I worried about the girls, they were such mature and confident young women, that I knew they would be ok.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's an act of aggression and power, and all the maturity and confidence in the world can't prevent it if the perpetrator has more power and strength than the victim.
You are making some unusual comments in this thread, and that post was one of the most remarkable.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)by being smart regarding alcohol and drugs and getting to know a guy a bit before having sex with him. You know...all the things we should teach our daughters? Don't get into a guy with a car you don't know? Proceed on your terms, not his. I knew they could never be fully protected against rape, but they could do things to make rape less likely. Be smart. It's your body. Protect it and your own mental health, because there's a lot of people out there you can't trust.
Because, yeah, there are some real jerks out there who rape. And rape is a serious crime.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Most women are raped by someone they know and trust. In their HOMES. That whole "stranger rape" thing is a minority event.
You really would benefit from some study on this topic.
https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
http://www.datehookup.com/content-what-you-should-know-about-rape-and-sexual-assault.htm
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Guys they don't know real well. Not well enough to trust, anyway. And how many times does it involve alcohol? drugs?
Of course, you can lessen your chances of rape, but a woman can not prevent against every possible rape. That's a given.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I have provided. They're, many of them, raped in their homes or dorm rooms, or in the dorm rooms of their TRUSTED companions. Often, their rapists are long-term friends who suddenly decide to abuse the friendship through violence.
And I'll wager plenty of those victims were "mature" and "confident." And not all of them were under the influence of alchol or drugs, either.
You can lessen your chance of rape by moving into a cloister and sealing yourself off from the world, too, but that's not going to eliminate the possibility, either.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)yet the worry is about naive boys being falsely accused of rape. Never mind that 97% of the rapists are men, and in 2% of the cases they are mixed groups. Never mind that 80% of the cases aren't reported to the police (of which 20 percent don't report because of fear of reprisal, 9% said the police wouldn't or couldn't do anything, and 10% don't want offender to get in trouble with the law!) Apparently magical thinking protects you from rape, and being mature and confident wraps you in a magical anti-rape force field.
MADem
(135,425 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)You can educate all you want about statistics regarding rape, but you cannot educate about the particular facts of "this" case. The allegations taken as a whole must be believable.
Does the fact that she went back to her alleged rapist make her guilty of lying? No, women sometimes do just that. However, taken as a whole with the rest of the evidence or lack thereof, it is a part of the puzzle that puts her story in the unbelievable category to me.
MADem
(135,425 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)"he assaulted three women" story. His ex girlfriend did not claim he physically assaulted her - she said that she felt like he would break up with her if she didn't have sex with him. I believe she stated upon questioning that he never physically assaulted her. I don't exactly know what the actual accusation was (He hurt my feelings?), but he was cleared of it.
Have a evening.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You don't have to rape someone to intimidate them sexually.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)/sarcasm
If you don't believe that you can lessen the chances of getting raped, why bother even talking about it? We're all just victims waiting to happen. I would still believe that a smart woman can lessen her chances of getting raped if I were raped tomorrow. Because rapes do happen, and we cannot protect ourselves against every man intent on raping.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Remember "Jackie" - she was already working with a rape victims group when she decided to make up her story to get the attention of a male friend. 
This shit has a way of backfiring on rape victims, so the logic goes like this: because this shit backfires, we must always support every woman who makes a rape claim. 
You can clearly see that line of thinking in the"Jackie" story. And that backfires, because you have to wonder about the objectivity of anyone who could read about the Jackie case and still believe her. So, fewer people believe - not more. They're just silenced in places like university campuses.
It's so bad, that the Duke Lacrosse coach was forced to resign because he stood by his students who were accused of rape. No first tier university would even grant him an interview. For allegations against some of his players - not himself! McCarthyism at its finest. Watch the CBS 60 Minutes story on Coach Mike Pressler if you want to see what McCarthyism looks like. And what loyalty looks like.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-investigates-the-duke-rape-case/
MADem
(135,425 posts)"Jackie's" story fell apart quick. This woman has been carrying her mattress for nearly two years.
Nice to know you're in the crowd that assumes women lie about rape. Wowie.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)it has fallen apart only after it featured as a center piece of Rolling Stones article.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)""Jackie's" story fell apart quick. This woman has been carrying her mattress for nearly two years."
Amazing how determined you are to reinforce my points. Remember when I started this sub-thread with "guilt by performance art".
Imagine such a future, "Defense please now present your closing statement in the form of interpretive dance".
LisaL
(47,344 posts)So her story didn't exactly fell apart quick.
MADem
(135,425 posts)"Jackie" wasn't an ongoing story since 2012. Find me a newspaper or magazine link from then and we'll talk.
This woman has been engaging in her performance art--which hit the news a long while back--for near on two years.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Amazing how determined YOU are to deny this woman her 1st Amendment rights, in favor of Mister "No one likes MEEEE" Butthurt.
Say, I don't like YOUR utterances, so I'm going to solve my problem by shutting you up!! See how THAT works?
Kurska
(5,739 posts)It means you're saying that someone just got destroyed so hard they might as well got pounded in the ass and are now in pain over it. It is both homophobic and very rapey in connotation.
Are we on 4chan or something? How can you think such a word would be accepable here? That is all kinds of messed up.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It means "ass kicking" not anal rape, let's be clear, because that is where you are trying to go, I suspect.
It's only homophobic if you're looking for that kind of association. I wasn't. Let me make THAT entirely clear, too.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I think that is the PG version very different from the initial conception of the meaning of the word. Commonly it is used in situations where one has dominated or humiliated another person and they are upset about it. I think the implication there is clear, others can disagree. Regardless, I really think DU has a higher level of dialog than that. Well mostly it does.
Again, are we on 4chan or something? When did butthurt start to become parlance here?
MADem
(135,425 posts)as a "default." You keep accusing me of that with your repeated berating. I have made myself clear. You refuse to accept what I've said because you're the one, apparently, with the dirty mind. That's not my problem, it's yours.
That's like saying that "ass whupping" --because it has the "ass" word in it--means something other than grandma with the switch.
It is possible, in an over-abundance of (dislike this term, but it will have to do) "political correctness," that you read into an expression more than is actually there. Again--that is YOUR issue.
Your repeated references to 4chan, as if I'm familiar with that site (I am not--but plainly YOU are) could be viewed, in themselves, as an accusation of some sort.
I really think you should quit while you're behind.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)"That's the other aspect of "butthurt" that makes a legitimately awful term. Because jealousy and anger are emotions; they spring naturally from our thoughts and feelings. There is no mode of argument, no state of grief, no kind of righteous anger that actually results in your butt hurting. No one suffering a breakup feels "butt ache" from listening to love songs on the radio.
There is, however, a pretty obvious cause of butthurt that everyone envisions when they try to think of its point of origin. It's called getting fucked in the ass.
Look, obviously many people don't intend that interpretation when they use the word. Doubtless, a lot of people recognize it simply as an effective term in the discourse that can be used to put someone down. Like kids with gay uncles or aunts who would never dream of wounding their family but nevertheless say, "Ugh, that is so gay," on the playground, butthurt is likely just a weapon in the arsenal of many people who've never stopped to think what it means.
I've quoted two sources now that agree with my origin of it. I think Gawker is a pretty good authority on internet culture. If you want to keep using that term and pretend it means something everyone else apparently doesn't think so, be my guest. Don't tell me I just made this up out of the air because I have a "dirty mind".
You should certainly consider taking in that entire article, it is a very enlightening read.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Like I said, my "default" on word/phrase meanings that are long - established in the vernacular don't go to images of sexual violence. When it comes to phrases that are featured in children's cartoons, my first thought most definitely is not that of anal rape.
You can put ANY word in a nasty sentence--like the ones you coyly use as an example that included the "bitch" word--to try to "plus up" the meaning and make it more dire, but you still won't move me. That's just gaming. I don't buy it. I can take any word and provide a context to make it sound worse than it means in a neutral setting.
FWIW, you are not using "GAWKER" the "media entity" as your source--you are using an anonymous poster giving us his OPINION on Gawker, who calls himself Mobuto Sese Seko (who, FWIW, was a corrupt, insane, nepotistic embezzler, thief and dictator with absolutely nothing to recommend him--so what does that do to the "authoritativeness" of your link?) as your authoritative source--and he is using "urban dictionary" as HIS authoritative source. So yeah. Whatever. Please. People make shit up and put it on UD for savage amusement. There is no filter there. Whatsoever! Do forgive me if I give your "sources" all the merit they deserve--OK?
But hey, you can continue to think what you want--even though your assertion was completely rejected by a DU jury (who are better able to judge the context of my remarks here than your good buddy "Mobutu" over at GAWKER) in this thread.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)If DU thinks butthurt is acceptable, so speakth the DU. I don't make the rules, I just follow them if I want to post here.
"You can put ANY word in a nasty sentence--like the ones you coyly use as an example that included the "bitch" word--to try to "plus up" the meaning and make it more dire, but you still won't move me. "
You realize I didn't actually write the article right though right? lol.
On the whole, this really isn't going anywhere. Have a wonderful time.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Even though your authoritative source is a guy who named himself after a brutal dictator.
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Fri Apr 24, 2015, 12:50 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
She's not using his name. She's talking about HER circumstances.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1076350
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
While the guy probably sucks and this is a stupid argument using the word "Butthurt" is a homophobic slur implying someone is in pain because they just were anally violated.
It should be an automatic hide just like using the c-word.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Apr 24, 2015, 12:59 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: butthurt:
Getting your feelings hurt, being offended or getting all bent out of shape because of something petty or stupid.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What do you think of the phrase "while the guy probably sucks"? What do you think is the origin of such phrase? Do you own a mirror?
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: 'Butthurt' is in no way a homophobic slur. That's like saying 'you're a pain in the ass' is also a homophobic slur.
Grow. Thicker. Skin.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: When I hear butthurt is has always been as a reference to someone getting spanked/beaten. In a debate or other instance. You would have been better off if your alert was about the posters lack of knowledge with respect to the first amendment. They deserve a time-out in order to educate themselves on the first amendment alone. Just playing. Nothing hide worthy here.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
MADem
(135,425 posts)sexual assault!!! AND trying to infer that I was homophobic in so doing!! Who would have done such a thing, rather than confront me directly in the thread?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I want to express my deep appreciation to you for this result. You read me right and I thank you for that. Jury Number Three, that was especially clever and a fair point!
Thanks for posting that, Action Patrol...I guess I'll have to tread carefully around here!
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)that women are capable of lying about rape. I think fairly rare, but - yeah - I do believe some women like about rape. One percent? Two percent? Five Percent? Ten percent? The percentage wouldn't really matter if it happened to my son.
Would the number matter if it happened to your son?
Justice goes both ways. Even for a heinous crime like rape.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think if you raise kids right, they don't get into situations where they're accused of rape.
"Justice" worked out just fine for this guy--he isn't in jail for the crime of rape, and he gets to graduate. His fellow students have a poor opinion of him, and I doubt that is "just" because of this mattress story. College students aren't stupid--they don't operate in a vacuum. They've seen this guy around, they've heard him talk. His repuation, apparently, precedes him--and that's his issue. No one else's.
Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)"I think if you raise kids right, they don't get into situations where they're accused of rape."
MADem
(135,425 posts)The one who is ACCUSED of rape is the guy who's whining that no one will play with him.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)"He" got away with it. But he needs to rethink his behavior with women.
He's gotten feedback from three of them.
And he has no right to try and censor a fellow student because he thinks she is talking about him -- though she never once says his name.
He'd better get over himself, and get correct.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)She might have not told it to the press, but obviously she accused him by name to the University.
Otherwise, how would they know who to investigate?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Trajano
(53 posts)I think you meant the latter.
MADem
(135,425 posts)so in my response, I didn't add it.
OnlinePoker
(6,086 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)he'd be in court against her, actually clearing his name or trying to, not engaging in a fruitless effort to get "Go Away" money from the university for approving an art project where his name is never mentioned, and the focus is on the way that the person calling herself a victim feels each day.
He'd be stupid to even try to sue her, seeing as she's not naming him as part and parcel of her art project. And that is infuriating to some, but that is where it sits. His own guilty conscience, and the fact that apparently even his friends believe the circumstances reported by the mattress carrier, are what's eating at him.
He's only got 26 more days to deal with it, as does she. Then he can go on his merry way, and she will put down her mattress.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)and not to name names. And, yeah, he waited way too long to attempt to defend himself.
MADem
(135,425 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)On her tacky art project.
Well, it is dorm property.
MADem
(135,425 posts)just how uninformed you are on the subject of rape. It's not a good impression you're making, frankly.
I don't think the guy is an appropriate icon to use when talking about a rape victim, but that's just me. Clearly, your mileage varies, and it's noted.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)and I cannot believe that you just wrote this:
I think if you raise kids right, they don't get into situations where they're accused of rape.
That's a crock of shit. Actually, a boatload.
Apparently, Emma's parents did a piss poor job in teaching her how to pick her friends. See how that goes?
Is that really a statement you want to make? You raise your kids right, and they won't get accused of rape?
Really?
MADem
(135,425 posts)You sure you want to continue down this road?
I can't believe YOU just made that comparison! And then you equated having respect for other humans to .... McCarthyism?
Here, let me break down that 'crock of shit' that isn't for you--since you're plainly having trouble.
If you raise your children to be careful and not excessive around alcohol and other drugs, to respect the personhood of others, to not engage in sexual behaviors with people who are intoxicated or otherwise incapacitated, to understand that no means no, to ask permission and get approval/ensure activities are consensual (see--they TEACH all this stuff at college indoctrinations precisely because of these campus rape issues, ya know?) then yes, the odds are very good that they won't get accused of rape.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I've got a son, by the way. And a daughter.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)In fact, because it's not common for women to falsely accuse men of rape, I find it fascinating when they do. Why are we interested in women-who-murder cases? (That's a very generic "we." Because women don't murder as frequently as men.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 24, 2015, 02:18 PM - Edit history (1)
Do you know how many rape cases are not pursued by police? Do you know how many sexual assaults occur every single minute of the day in this country that have zero legal consequences for the rapists?
"The New McCarthyism" -- bullshit. The number of false accusations of rapists is tiny. The number of rapes is staggering.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I would expect better from this website, but what can one say or do?
I do think universities need to get out of the "rape" business, in that if a student is assaulted, the Real Police need to be called. The student-victims need to be seen by a Real Hospital Emergency Room Staff, not some do-gooder students in the "rape crisis center" on campus. I think Real Police Reports need to be filed, not "Reports of Student Misconduct" like rape is the equivalent of someone stealing your pencil box and backpack.
The universities know that crime statistics are a part and parcel of their ability to sell their product (an education) so it is in their interest to try to turn rape into a misunderstanding, or murder into accidental death.
They need to get their priorities straight, IMO.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)He was not charged with anything either. Therefore, he is considered innocent.
MADem
(135,425 posts)a student who ALSO didn't name the raping pig?
Come on.
"Therefore, he is considered innocent." Not by me, he isn't--but I am no more a "court of law" than the school is.
Your argument is all over the page, and it fails.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Incredible what people are doing to this young man.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)The irony is incredible. "No one is conducting a smear campaign against this piece of human flith!".
Absolutely incredible.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I'm not a court of law, I have no power to "harass this man" .... I'm not even alerting on anyone, either. I'm giving my views about a news story posted on DU. You don't have to agree with me, but you need to come up with some reasonable arguments.
This guy has no case against the school for having his FEEEEEEELINGS hurt by his fellow students who don't want to hang around with him, and who know his reputation well enough to come to a conclusion about him and his behavior.
It's not "irony" -- it's OPINION. And there's nothing "incredible" -- absolutely or otherwise--about that.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I understand you're on the internet and that makes most people believe the have a license to act in ways they never would face to face with the person they are talking about. However, that doesn't make the behavior any less wrong. It is ironic, because your language is a perfect example of the type of harassment he faces. Not from you, but from people who apparently share your mind on the matter and by virtue or sin of circumstance live close enough to actually directly hurl their insults at a person never convicted or charged with anything.
He does have a reasonable case, because he isn't describing his feelings being hurt. He is describing what sounds like a systematic campaign of stalking by several individuals that the school did nothing to stop. Additionally, the school put up her account of what happened on their website, when their own inquiry found those claims to not have been substantiated. I've already described this to you. If you don't get that by now you're just willfully ignoring what I am saying.
MADem
(135,425 posts)come right out and say what you mean.
For someone who talks a good fight about "face to face" communications, you're being pretty snarky and oblique. Your accusations against me re: homophobia were quite rich--and false, too.
I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. I have an opinion on this matter--as is my RIGHT--and I am discussing it on a DISCUSSION board where I am a member, where members DISCUSS issues of interest to them.
Not sure why you have a problem with this, but that's your problem, not mine.
FWIW, the school has covered "his side" of the story in their campus newspaper, but only AFTER he came out publicly. Before that, they protected his privacy and didn't name him when he was accused, or when their meaningless little "misconduct" board didn't find enough "evidence" (he said gets fifty percent weight/she said gets fifty percent weight, and no one wins) in the testimony to find against him.
My opinion remains that he doesn't have a case, and it's not the school's job to protect him against his own dumbass actions. On the contrary, the school ran around obliterating the names of rapists that students scrawled in the restrooms, and the university newspaper took care to obliterate the names when they took pictures of the graffiti. What more would you have them do? Station guards with cleaning gear in every restroom on campus? Maybe he shouldn't have behaved inappropriately with not one, but three different women at Columbia, and then maybe he'd not be in this fix?
Kurska
(5,739 posts)You don't actually have the right to discuss anything here. DU has no first amendment. It is up the to the community to decide what is acceptable behavior and who does or doesn't have a right to participate.
"My opinion remains that he doesn't have a case, and it's not the school's job to protect him against his own dumbass actions." No it actually entirely does have a responsibility to protect him against organized stalking and harassment. If this was happening to another student for any other reason you'd be opposed I'm sure. I think you just don't think he should be protect, because you don't like him. That is my opinion obviously, but I think you'd have to jump through some crazy intellectual hoops to say universities don't have an obligation to protect students against other students following them around and throwing insults constantly. I doubt you would be cool with that behavior if it was directed at any other individual.
I've repeatedly articulated my problem so let me be clear. My problem is with trial by public anger and performance art piece. He was never charged even under the lowest possible legal standard, yet he is being treated like a monster. People have literally gotten away with murders they are obviously guilty of and got of on technicalities and faced less harassment than this college student. Who I remind you, have never been convicted or charged or with ANYTHING.
MADem
(135,425 posts)He is a PUBLIC FIGURE. He's given interviews to the media. He is not a private person anymore. He's pleading his case in the court of public opinion, and as a consequence of doing that, he opens himself up to a little something called CRITICISM.
DU does have community standards, and my discussions about the First Amendment were discussing the mattress-carrier's rights, not "DU" rights. So I'm not quite sure why you're trying to convolute those matters, but I'm not buying it. Here at DU we have a jury system, and the jury has spoken with a resounding seven to zip judgment about your repeated attempts to smear me and ascribe beliefs which I do not hold.
The aggrieved student hasn't proved that he's being "stalked" or "harassed." He hasn't even suggested that's his problem. He's mad because people won't be FRIENDS with him, and that's a different issue entirely. I rather doubt that an entire student body would reject this guy because one person took issue with him--that whole "he said/she said" thing would surely shake out a few supporters for the "he said" group, after all. I think--and again, this is my OPINION, and I've a right to express that here, because it is an opinion that doesn't contravene any DU TOS (since you were crabbing about 1st Amendment, earlier, in aid of nothing, really) his problem is that he's said things to other people that cause them to believe he's not a very nice guy.
He hasn't done his reputation any favors by his OWN ACTIONS. And that's HIS problem. There's no rule that the university has to force people to associate with him. If the students don't like him, well, they don't like him. Suing the school less than a month before he graduates isn't going to change that.
Trajano
(53 posts)But that wouldn't fit your narrative.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Oh, welcome to DU, Trajano--interesting post you've put up....way to introduce yourself to the community!
Trajano
(53 posts)read as the Washington Post informs you that he was cleared. "He was cleared in both Sulkowicz’s and the third case."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/04/in-columbia-university-rape-case-accuser-and-accused-are-now-fighting-it-out-in-public/
MADem
(135,425 posts)That narrative, Sulkowicz says, doesn’t apply to her or other victims.
“Everyone deals with trauma differently,” she told Mic. “If you reached out to your attacker after you were assaulted, it shouldn’t discredit your story.”
I recently saw a story on TV where a woman "reached out" to her attacker in order to get his confession on tape. Using that evidence, she was able to secure a conviction.
I don't think this woman is lying.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)How would you have a court of law to clear him?
MADem
(135,425 posts)This never got to a court.
And no one is naming him in the art project.
Trajano
(53 posts)You keep mentioned courts as the only accusations people can be cleared of are those who go to criminal or civil courts.
And will you email the Washington Post asking to delete the word "cleared" because it doesn't fit your custom-made definition of "cleared"?
MADem
(135,425 posts)went with him that he was "cleared" of anything. The school doesn't use that "cleared" term either, so it's kind of hard to claim that he was "cleared" when they don't even employ that verbiage. They didn't have sufficient information to find him responsible, is all.
What WAPO says isn't my problem, so no, I won't be emailing them. You can if it means that much to you.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)As for not "naming" him, sounds like everybody on that campus knew who she was accusing.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Trajano
(53 posts)It's just a cute saying you pulled out of somewhere.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"you pulled out of somewhere..."
That would be literature. Try it sometime.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It never got to court. Just as, in the context of the art project, the person accused of rape is never named.
Since another DUer has educated you on the location of "somewhere" I won't belabor the point.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)The simple fact is that this is a police matter. The cops declined to move forward. The overwhelming reason for this sort of response is LACK OF EVIDENCE. Where there is no evidence, there is no basis for an arrest. And there has to be extrinsic evidence, not just accusations. Without evidence to back it up any accusation is in essence weightless in the legal process.
Columbia would be wise to settle this as quickly as possible.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I'm tired of reading that rape victims don't all act the same. True. But it is much easier for some rape victims to remove themselves from the life of their rapists, so a little common sense can go a long way when examine the actions of the alleged victim. She had absolutely no reason to be involved in this guy's life and yet she continued to pursue him after the alleged rape. You know, it's one thing for a young woman to wake up and realize she was drunk and had non-consensual sex (which is rape). I totally get that she might be confused. Still like the guy, but feel a violation of trust. I get it.
But to accuse a guy of attempting to strangle you? And still pursue him? Combined with other things, it just doesn't pass the smell test. And we continue to read about two other women who were sexually assaulted. Not true. His ex girlfriend told the university that she felt like she had to have sex with him or they would break up, but she never said that he sexually assaulted her in any manner. I believe she was specifically asked that question by the university panel. Apparently a horny college guy is automatically guilty of sexual assault of he wants sex in the relationship.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)DetlefK
(16,670 posts)All the university did was accepting her extraordinary behaviour as an art-project.
I guess he would have liked the university to sabotage her publicity attempts.
Trajano
(53 posts)The college would have been sued BY HER if it had told her to stop.
Novara
(6,115 posts)The university can't stifle her right to speak in this manner. Oh too bad it bothers a rapist. She is bothered (as well as the other two victims) by his walking free to continue abusing women. She is bothered by the way the school handled the case, and she has every right to protest that. It really comes down to the First Amendment.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)in controlling on-campus behavior of its students than a public university would.
Note that the university was somewhat actively involved in the project as it approved
"the mattress-carrying piece as her senior thesis".
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It has been deemed necessary in order to foster a learning environment.
"The university can't stifle her right to speak in this manner."
Most all of them can. Even public universities. They do have to offer "free speech zones."
alp227
(33,116 posts)I'm against rape, but I do NOT want a world where anyone can get away with making shit up and defaming others. The university AND NYPD couldn't find a case to label him a rapist.
Monk06
(7,675 posts)slander. He's not suing her at all. He's suing the University and her professor Jon Kessler for supporting her months long campaign of harassment and intimidation. The fact that the harassment is gender based makes it actionable in State and Federal court under Title IX portion of the Educational Emendments of 1972. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX
So it is actionable and could lead to a Supreme Court case and further amendments.
There is nothing groundless or specious about Nungesser's lawsuit. In fact it may establish a precedent.
If it goes that far. I think Columbia will give up an impressive amount of cash to prevent that from happening.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)He was not found guilty, nor tried, nor even charged. There has to be at least some credible evidence to meet those bars. They were not met. He is more than not guilty. Under the law he is innocent. Even the university with its lower standard of proof could not muster the evidence to charge him.
I'm not really sure about suing a professor for approving a school project; that could be a matter of the student and professor's academic freedom. But otherwise, I think he has a credible case against the university.
I sense a settlement in the works.
Trajano
(53 posts)I can't find one.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Last edited Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:58 AM - Edit history (2)
(.pdf) https://kcjohnson.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/nungesser-complaint.pdf
and here:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/262956362/Nungesser-Filed-Complaint
(Found at: http://jezebel.com/heres-the-full-complaint-in-the-mattress-lawsuit-agains-1699947812/+LeahBeckmann )
(Edited to add direct .pdf link)
Trajano
(53 posts)
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)It is not entirely her fault that her thesis failed. When we see evidence of a massive societal crime---such as domestic violence or rape or war crimes---it is human nature to want to point a finger at one individual---as if removing one person from society will eliminate the rape culture which promotes and condones these attacks against women and men and children as a form of "self expression" on the part of angry, alienated individuals.
The woman in question should have done a better job with her thesis. If she had, all rapists would be socially indicted, not just one person. And the culture that produces these rapists would be indicted.
Her thesis failed because it ended up with a single scapegoat for a societal problem. And, at its heart, rape is also the process of making one person a scapegoat---in the case of rape, a scapegoat for another person's anger and unhappiness.
Will not comment on the guilt or innocence of the individuals involved. I have no way of knowing that. It is clear that the woman feels violated and betrayed by her school. And now, so does the man. Meaning that Columbia had better lawyer up.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)If you do not know whether this woman was raped or not, how can you be "clear that the woman feels violated and betrayed by her school?"
I ask in all sincerity. Why is this clear to you? If there is no evidence of a rape, how can this be clear to anyone?
Because she says so? What is clear is that she has gained a lot of fame carrying around that mattress, and will likely have some options open to her that might not otherwise have been available. After all, she has already given speeches and been granted awards.
Other than that, there is nothing that is clear about this woman to me.
doxyluv13
(247 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 24, 2015, 02:20 PM - Edit history (1)
Here's a Daily Beast Story that gives both sides:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-student-i-didn-t-rape-her.html
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)Thus, there are no "rapist defenders" in this thread.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)So say the university (which shouldn't be adjudicating these things anyway) and law enforcement, thus, no "rapist" who's going to continue to get away with anything.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)That is Truth.
And neither do you know that there WAS a crime or that there IS a rapist (and thus any "rapist defenders" in this thread). And That Is Truth.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Serenity will never be achieved by defending violence. Serenity only occurs when the violence ceases. Promoting violence will never achieve serenity.
Seeking Serenity
(3,265 posts)No matter how uncomfortable or unpleasant or politically dissonant that may be at times.
And the truth, in THIS case, is that there is not enough evidence to support an accusation of rape.
And no, just cuz I is one, I don't just automatically and reflexively #believeallwomen. Because, to me, to do that despite all evidence is infantilizing and denies women's humanity.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)https://www.rainn.org/statistics
http://www.thewomenscenterinc.org/sexual-assault-info/
http://www.911rape.org/facts-quotes/statistics
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/pages/rape-notification.aspx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/21/rape-study-report-america-us_n_4310765.html
Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)It doesn't prove the the accused to be a rapist by U.S. legal standards, however.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Apparently, we are "in denial" about rape, and defend rapists.
Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Women are infantilized in this discussion again and again. Funny how a child would know to stay away from someone who attempted to strangle him, but we are automatically supposed to believe - without question - that an intelligent young woman at Columbia University continued to pursue a relationship with the man who attempted to strangle her while raping her. WTF? This was supposedly well beyond rape.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)to infantilize the victims.
Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Emma truly never got due process, like MOST victims of rape, as the statistics overwhelmingly show.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)Charge and convict the guy based solely on her accusations?
She didn't report it to the police until a very long time afterwards.
So there would be no physical evidence of any sort.
She claims this guy violently raped her. But there are no photos of any injuries. And he has records of their communications after their encounter, on very friendly terms.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)"It's not rape if a woman remains with, or returns to, the man who raped her."
Some women feel deep shame if they remained in the relationship, or went back to the perpetrator after being raped by him (6). They may also feel as if this means as if they are not entitled to call a rape by it's name. This myth is not even logical because it assumes that a rape can suddenly "unbecome" a rape. It assumes that women must think, or behave, in prescribed ways in order for a rape to remain a rape, or for a woman to have the right of naming. It is based in part on notions of how a "good" victim behaves. This myth asks us to believe in a "back to the future" mentality, where time and events can be fiddled. Imagine if such absurd criteria were applied to robbery? If somebody stole your money, and you forgave that person, would that mean that you actually gave them the money? No, and neither does a rape magically transform into an act of consensual sex because of choices you make. You have the right to name and to heal."
http://www.aphroditewounded.org/myths.html
The victims of rape often return to their rapists. That does not mean that the victim was not raped by the rapist.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I wonder how many victims return to the guy who tried to strangle her? Sadly, women in long-term physically and/or emotionally abusive relationships or women who believe they need the jerk might return (children to feed), but this young woman was not entangled with this young man in such a manner, so it makes her story a little bit harder to believe. As evidence alone, it means absolutely nothing, but it's another piece of the puzzle that more aligns with "not raped" than "raped" in this instance.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)In PTSD, trauma victims often relive their trauma over and over again.
Done with discussion.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)This really is a bizarre idea.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)Great care should be made to make sure every opportunity to obtain ample evidence to convict has been seized.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)Please be specific.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)in a hospital or medical clinic. An atmosphere where the victim is encouraged to tell their story without provocation or degradation. The victim must be treated with seriousness and belief, kindness and compassion. A medical examination room and nurse or doctor on premises would be optimal, so the victim wouldn't have to be shuttled from one location to another.
The legal system must begin to treat sexual assault as a serious crime, "not a he said she said, the victim is a slut, the victim was asking for it" situation as is the majority of the time now. Victims are always retraumatized in the courtroom by the defense lawyers and the victims themselves are put on trial, this system must end! This is the reason so many victims will not agree to prosecute, this is the rapists "get out of rape free" card. A sane court system respectful of the victim must be initiated and become common. Sexual offenders must serve longer sentences, including rehabilitation. At this point victims of sexual assault would begin to come forward, speak up and encourage prosecution.
Ending the social traumatization of being a rape victim is key. The majority of the time the rape victim is blamed. In some instances the rapist is hailed as some kind of perverse hero or even the victim, as is in this case.
We MUST as a society begin to develop effective treatment programs for sex offenders or this will continue being a never ending societal and individual disease. Acknowledging there is too much societal DENIAL when it comes to the subject of rape is necessary to end the ostrich syndrome and begin to actually start dealing with the seriousness of sexual assault.
Victims must be encouraged to get treatment for trauma, using therapies such as EMDR. And for crying out loud, give them the morning after pill or an abortion. Being forced to carry and raise an unwanted child of rape is a type of a rape on top of a rape, it now becomes the emotional rape of two lives.
We have got to fix this disease, for a disease rape is. We need to stop arguing about whether he did it or not. Just shut up and get to work on healing this insidious generational disease.
Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)We have the presumption of innocence in our legal system.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)jail free" card for rapists.
Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)way to run a civilized society either.
Th guy is a rapist, he is not innocent. He is a serial rapist.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)the justice she wants is for him to be expelled so he can go out and continue to rape in other campuses. I truly believe if she was really raped, she would be looking for jail time and not mere expulsion.
The focus should be on teaching women on ways to report rape in order to get a conviction cos if rapist know that their victims wouldn't report them, there is nothing thats going to stop them from raping even after an expulsion.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)That's frequently how rape victims are treated.
Why is everyone having such a difficult time understanding how the rule is that rape victims are blamed for the rape?!
You know when a person is raped and their peers find out the gossip is "ooh so and so is a slut, they deserved it, they're so loose, they were asking for it. You know that's the way it is. You all know it. The victim is always publicly shamed and you all know that's what happens to a rape victim. You all know it from your high school corridors and your facebooks and your gossip sessions.
Stop smearing the victim and start doing something to fix this problem of rape, until you do you are a part of the problem!
Trajano
(53 posts)Your source is none other than Mattress Girl herself, yet you claim as a fact that they ridiculed her.
You had me fooled for a second. I thought post 122 was some sort of smoking gun against the police.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)One woman accused him of some type of assault (kissing her and grabbing her butt without her permission which ended when she deflected). And another...well...accused him of hurting her feelings. (Umm....she felt like he wanted to break up with her if she didn't have sex with him. Imagine that. A horny guy who wants to have sex with his girlfriend. But, notice, she NEVER claimed he forced her to have sex with him. I don't think she even claimed serious coercion. But she did get on that bandwagon with Emma. sigh
The above doesn't even begin to make anyone a serial rapist.
Gore1FL
(22,826 posts)Trajano
(53 posts)Novara
(6,115 posts)If they were negligent it doesn't mean he didn't rape her. A faulty investigation is as good as no investigation.
LisaL
(47,344 posts)She didn't report anything to the University until months after the fact.
Any possible physical evidence would be gone. Meanwhile she apparently continued electronically communicating with the guy as if nothing was amiss.
So the only thing left are her claims.
Do you think University therefore should have expelled him based on merely her accusations, when he is denying those accusations?
Trajano
(53 posts)Its the way they roll. Their minds are made up on day zero.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Pretty soon they'll all be defending the Legitimate Rape Guy.
Trajano
(53 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Assange has done both.
Trajano
(53 posts)That way?
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Statistically speaking, you have 92-98% of being right if you believe her, and 2-8% chance of being right if you believe him. In fact, considering that she named a name, the stats are more in her favor. I know who I believe in he said, she said situations, especially considering the consequences.
And that he considers it harassment - well, lets compare it to harassment, a lesser crime than rape. I mean, is he being pressured to drop it like she was? Has his past been scrutinized, his sexual history looked over with a fine-tooth comb? Has he been told that if he smiles or seems to enjoy himself after being falsely accused, obviously it mustn't be false? Are false accusations a source of jokes and is he being told it is a compliment to be falsely accused? Is he subjected to PSAs and endless campaigns about how to avoid being falsely accused without any reference to women who might falsely accuse? Does he have to face probing questions about whether he promised her a relationship, did he give her the impression he would marry her, was he dressed inappropriately, is he sure he didn't lead her on to falsely accuse? Did he have to pay for the gathering of evidence in his own case? No, then fuck it. Being raped is always worse than being falsely accused of raping someone, and odds are, he did it. Even convicted rapists don't have their careers destroyed - witness Mike Tyson et. al.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)You should read it.
Trajano
(53 posts)I loved that part.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)But she lied and stated that she had never discussed anal sex with him.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Go kudzu!
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)
PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)This is bullshit.
He was cleared, never charged with anything let alone convicted.
That's a pretty horrible thing to be accused of without any proof and no one should have to suffer for things they haven't done.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)...
Sulkowicz, who is continuing to carry her dorm room mattress, has said that Nungesser’s claims are “ridiculous”.
“I think it’s ridiculous that Paul would sue not only the school but one of my past professors for allowing me to make an art piece,” Sulkowicz said in an email to the Guardian.
“It’s ridiculous that he would read it as a ‘bullying strategy’, especially given his continued public attempts to smear my reputation, when really it’s just an artistic expression of the personal trauma I’ve experienced at Columbia. If artists are not allowed to make art that reflect on our experiences, then how are we to heal?”
Read the rest at: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/24/columbia-university-lawsuit-mattress-project-emma-sulkowicz
obliviously
(1,635 posts)bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)Fortunately, the DA in NYC avoided the same kind of politically motivated rush to judgement we saw from Mike Nifong.
borondongo
(19 posts)Response to Trajano (Original post)
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