Amtrak Train Speeding Over 100 Mph Into Curve Before Derailment: Report

[Purveyor]

Source: New York Post

By Gabrielle Fonrouge, Jamie Schram and Rebecca Harshbarger
May 13, 2015 | 12:44pm


A speeding Amtrak train heading to New York killed at least seven people when it derailed while going over 100 mph in a curve — even though there was a speed restriction of 50 mph.

Investigators believe excessive speed may have caused the crash, according to the Wall Street Journal.

A seventh victim was also confirmed dead in the crash when a body was pulled from the wreckage Wednesday morning, according to the Associated Press.

The death toll could climb higher as rescue crews search beneath a passenger car that was on its side and needed to be lifted up by a crane.

Read more: http://nypost.com/2015/05/13/more-feared-dead-in-amtrak-derailment-as-rescue-crews-search-site/

---

Sources: Train Reportedly Speeding; Engineer Mum

Paul Nussbaum, Inquirer Staff Writer
Last updated: Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 12:51 PM
Posted: Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 9:18 AM

Investigators of Tuesday's deadly Amtrak derailment say they are focusing on reports that the train was traveling more than twice the 50-mile-an-hour speed limit when it entered a sharp curve in Frankford.

An automatic train control system designed to prevent speeding was not in place where Amtrak Train 188 crashed, killing seven people and injuring more than 200.

The train's engineer, who has not been identified, declined to give a statement to police investigators and left the East Detectives Division with an attorney, police commissioner Charles H. Ramsey said Wednesday.

The train's conductor, also unidentified, was at Einstein Hospital with a skull fracture, Ramsey said.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_Amtrak_Derailment__What_we_know.html#trUWDM0zmBMv8y0B.99

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

1. God damn it....

WTF is wrong with these people? They have lives in their hands.

[PatrynXX]

2. starting to think we need co Engineers on board

Maybe a third?? nevermind a marked autopilot that slows down in marked areas smh because for all I know it's another case of sleeping at the wheel because of too little sleep again

[jberryhill]

62. he couldn't have been asleep at the wheel

They weren't minutes out of the station

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

3. I waS hoping to blame it on the teaparty caused deterioration of our infrastructure

[Spitfire of ATJ]

4. It is. 50 mph is because the rails couldn't handle more.

[Rebubula]

9. Well....

....that and the curves going through Philly.

Those trains normally travel at 100 or more....on straight aways.

[brooklynite]

15. No, they don't NORMALLY travel at 100 or more...

OCCASIONALLY, they travel above 100, but rarely. Most of the NEC is about 70-80.

[former9thward]

17. No it is not.

It is curved track going through a congested urban area. No train should be going 100 mph in those circumstances no matter if the rails were straight from the factory. Follow the speed limit and at least 7 people would be with their families today.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. Did the engineer have a heart attack?

[former9thward]

43. Given that he retained an attorney and refused to give a statement

I doubt it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. I see jail time in his future.

[RobinA]

75. Dunno

I'm no train expert, but I've been through that area on Amtrak a bunch of times and it's a mess. I can't imagine why anybody short of somebody experiencing a psychotic break would be doing 100 mph through there. If this is true, I wonder what the deal was.

[itcfish]

5. You Can Blame Them

European trains have an automatic slow down thingy on highspeed trains. I don't know what it's called, but I saw it on a special when the train crashed in Santiago de Compostela last year. (the conservative government there also cut back on maintenance)

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

6. just saw headline that today the terrorists (teaparty) are cutting funding of Amtrak

Yes, teaparty are the American Taliban, and they are terrorizing our people, our economy, our president, our infrastructure, etc

[B2G]

11. You were 'hoping' it was due to infrastructure

rather than operator negligence??

Why in the world?

[former9thward]

20. So a political point could be made.

Before the bodies are even cold. Priorities, you know...

[B2G]

22. Sick. nt

[onehandle]

21. Because of them, personnel and hours have been cut from Amtrak.

Blame away...

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

26. OK, BLAME and SHAME

[Earth_First]

66. Fucking, really?!

This is probably the most fucked up thing I've read today...and I read a lot of fucked up shit from The Beltway.

Congratulations, you are today's Worst Person of the Day!

[harun]

7. Easy to automate, just cuts in to profits, so...

[elleng]

29. NO PROFITS on Amtrak,

We the People own it. and only 'easy' to automate if congress agrees to spend $ on it; doing so has been a battle for years.

[harun]

38. I stand corrected.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

67. LIke I said, teaparty and republican ASSHOLES are to blame, and THANKFULLY we CAN

point to their LACK of supporting INFRASTRUCTURE, so maybe the ASSHOLES who defend these MOTHERFUCKERS will get their ASSES kicked on social media or change their minds and stop acting like motherfucking kochsucking pieces of shit.

[Raine1967]

8. just an hour ago, the House GOP blocked an Amtrak funding bill:

http://www.wral.com/house-gop-panel-proposes-amtrak-cuts/14642766/

the reason why the train couldn't/shouldn't exceed 50 MPH is because we won;t invest in our rail system.

[B2G]

12. Bullshit

Taking a sharp curve at twice the recommended speed limit can't be fixed by a different set of rails.

[Raine1967]

14. It's actually Not *Bullshit*

We haven't invested in high speed rails.

But you go on. Speed related or not, we don;t invest in our infrastructure and that DOES cause problems in this nation.

Trains travel over 100 miles per hour ALL OVER THE WORLD.

But not here in this nation.

[B2G]

19. Then cite an example that's pertinent

Because it's becoming increasingly clear that this wasn't caused by the rails. It was caused by a flagrant ignoring of the posted speed limit.

[Raine1967]

23. Do you deny my statement?

I am not denying the train was speeding. We still don;t know why the train was speeding, you see that is what investigations are for.

Go look for a fight someplace else, your combative attitude makes me not want to dialogue with you.

My point stands WRT to investing in infrastructure. The bill that was just blocked was supposed to help fund infrastructure in that very rail corridor.

[B2G]

25. Your point collapses like a house of cards,

but whatever.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

27. There is a upgrade to the system that would prevent the operator from speeding, I am pretty

sure, like a "governor" and due to LACK of funds because of the

PUKE FUCK TEAPARTY

they dont have it

I havent researched this yet, but I have heard this is true

ps

The teaparty/repub exists for the sole purpose to cause death and misery

[B2G]

28. Zero blame for the conductor

Figures.

[Raine1967]

56. Have you been a part of the investigation?

You really know all the facts already ahead of the NTSB?

You seriously seem very defensive regarding many people on DU expressing concern about our lack of infrastructure investment. It's almost myopic, IMO.

people are trying to discuss a bigger issue, and it appears that you are willing to blame the conductor with no further discussion.

Also, are you confusing conductors with engineer?



Odd.

[City Lights]

59. Why do you want to blame the conductor?

Was the conductor operating the train?

[Raine1967]

53. Yes.

But don't let the people tell you it's "bullshit" otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#North_America

We can do this, if congress has the will to do so.

[elleng]

30. No bull shit and yes,

twice recommended speed not likely possible under any circumstances.

[B2G]

31. So which is it?

It can't be both.

[elleng]

33. It IS both,

taking a sharp curve at 100 (or twice 'recommended' speed) can't be done safely AND we haven't invested in 'high speed' rail or ANY significant infrastructure improvements which we should have been doing for years.

[B2G]

34. I'm referring to the cause of this crash

I think it will prove out that our infrastructure had nothing to do with it.

[elleng]

35. I think we don't know yet,

so it's early to call 'bullshit' on any theory.

[B2G]

36. Well 100 MPH in a 50 MPH zone is a pretty large clue

But I can wait.

It seems others can't/won't.

[sendero]

79. If automatic speed controls ...

.... that are generally implemented worldwide are not "infrastructure" then you are correct. Otherwise you are not.

Relying on humans to do the correct thing every time is futile. They won't.

[kirby]

51. But...

Having backup systems/infrastructure that limit speeds on trains could have prevented the Engineer allegedly speeding.
The system is called Positive Train Control - see https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0621
The train had it, but the stretch of track had not been upgraded.

Previously the Republicans slashed Amtrak budgets over 11% and their current bill slashes another 19%.

[B2G]

54. You know what?

We could probably prevent just about every accident in the world if we had unlimited funds and decades to develop the technology.


But you can NEVER take human behavior out of the equation.

We can't prevent drivers from speeding drunk and killing innocent people. We can't prevent suicidal pilots from crashing into a mountain or flying until they run out of fuel, killing all onboard. We can't prevent some psychopath from abducting, raping and killing a child.

Sometimes bad shit just happens and the only ones to blame are those that perpetrate it. But they never seem to get the blame.

Because there are political points to score. It's rather disconcerting to me.

[kirby]

57. Risk

Certainly everything in life has risk and evaluating / prioritizing risk is important. In this case however, this has been enough of a safety issue over the years (across the world) that an entire system was designed to solve the most common cases of operator error. The system was passed into law as REQUIRED in 2008 and due to lack of funding has taken forever/been stalled. I think educating people about that is a fair point.

We don't yet know the reason why the speeding happened (intentional, health issue, fatigue, texting, etc). But we do know that there is a mandated system that would have prevented it had it been funded. And numerous people would still be alive.

[jwirr]

10. On MSNBC coverage the first thing I heard was several people saying that they had left the station

late and one said that she thought that they were traveling faster than usual. I wondered then if they were speeding.

As to the curve. If he was going 100 mph on a curve marked for 50 mph he was crazy. Here in MN the curves on our roads have similar markings - if it says 50 mph it means that going faster is not safe.

I cannot imagine why he would take the lives of all the people he was transporting so lightly.

[MosheFeingold]

42. Conductor needs to go to prison n/t

[jwirr]

47. If he was deliberately speeding - yes.

[City Lights]

60. The conductor or the engineer? nt

[jberryhill]

65. Well, maybe the engineer needs company

[MosheFeingold]

69. Engineer, sorry. Not up on my train terms. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

80. crazy thing to do

[onehandle]

13. The train usually speeds up considerably after that curve.

It takes a while to get there after you leave 30th street station. The train feels like it's being careful as it maneuvers the curves and bends through North Philly to reach straighter tracks.

Even at slower speeds you can feel the centrifugal force along there.

Sounds like the driver was either pushing his luck or thought they were past that curve.

Or something else...

I've been on Amtrak up and down the East Coast. Sometimes late at night, I sit in the snack car and monitor the speed with the GPS in my iPhone. I don't remember seeing the train hitting 100MPH. When the train is going fast (80MPH+), you can really feel it. I wonder about bullet trains going 3 or 4 times faster or more in other countries. I doubt they feel like they are about to fly off the track, like our trains do.

[truthisfreedom]

16. Stuck controls?

[mnhtnbb]

37. Fast trains I've ridden in Austria and France are so smooth, you wouldn't believe it!

We recently rode Amtrak from Cary, NC to DC and back. OMG. We were practically thrown
out of our seats at one point and I doubt the train was doing even 80.

The fast train we rode in Austria was up to 220km/h (almost 137 mph). I took a photo of the display
in the car which monitors speed!

[davidpdx]

52. I've been on fast trains in China, Japan, and Korea

Here in Korea you can get from Seoul to Busan (the entire length of the country) in about 2 1/2 hours. Once they finish upgrading it in a few years it will be down to 2 hours.

[marions ghost]

61. Wouldn't it be nice

if we could really have modern ground transportation in America?

Not a chance. That would be helping the people too much.

[mnhtnbb]

68. This country sold out so long ago. It's sad.

What's even worse is that so many people in this country are so clueless
about what could have been possible if they hadn't bought
all the malarkey about individual "freedoms".

[marions ghost]

70. Yeah

--free to be isolated, exploited and struggling for crumbs. A nation of gleaners at the base of corporate castles.

What we could have accomplished in the last few decades by pulling together for the common good...

[jwirr]

48. That is a good question. How do the bullet trains handle the curves?

[jberryhill]

63. banked curves

These tracks are shared by NJTransit and SEPTA commuter lines.

[Jesus Malverde]

74. They're designed for high speed travel

A big reason American tracks suck so much is they share tracks with freight trains.

[Glimmer of Hope]

18. How can someone be so reckless! My heart goes out to those impacted.

[Red1]

24. Either be

alcohol or drug related..

[rocktivity]

32. Approaching a curve at twice the normal speed

is something I would not recommend to a heat-seeking missile...


rocktivity

[jtuck004]

39. Just a little nap at work... n/t

[Politicalboi]

41. Just wondering if there was a cell phone involved

Maybe they get too comfortable while texting and forget "they" work on the train.

[Lucky Luciano]

46. You are probably on to something with the cell phone theory. nt

[Brickbat]

49. What a shitty thing to say.

[jberryhill]

64. It was shitty the last couple of times too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision

The Chatsworth train collision occurred at 4:22 p.m. PDT (23:22 UTC) on Friday, September 12, 2008, when a Union Pacific freight train and a Metrolink commuter train collided head-on in the Chatsworth district of Los Angeles, California. The scene of the accident was a curved section of single track on the Metrolink Ventura County Line just east of Stoney Point.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which investigated the cause of the collision, the Metrolink train ran through a red signal before entering a section of single track where the opposing freight train had been given the right of way by the train dispatcher. The NTSB faulted the Metrolink train's engineer for the collision, concluding that he was distracted by text messages he was sending while on duty.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/30/world/europe/spain-train-crash/

The driver of a train that derailed in northwestern Spain last week, killing 79 people, was on the phone with railway staff when the train crashed, court officials announced Tuesday, citing information from data recorders.

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/ntsb-distracted-truck-driver-caused-rosedale-train-crash/29275356

BALTIMORE —A train derailment and explosion in Rosedale a year and a half ago was caused by the truck driver involved in the crash, who officials determined was distracted at the time, according to a report released Wednesday.

The National Transportation and Safety Board's final report on the May 28, 2013, crash determined that it happened when the driver of the truck, John Alban Jr., 51, of Essex, failed to make sure that the tracks were clear before trying to cross. The NTSB said another factor in the crash was that Alban was talking on the phone on a hands-free device at the time.

[Brickbat]

73. Getting a train to 100 mph takes a while. Asleep at the wheel seems more likely.

[Heddi]

76. Too soon from last stop to fall asleep unless he has narcolepsy

On this page is a map of 30th St Station (Amtrak Station)--middle left side of the map, and where the crash occurred, upper right of map/ Taking public transportation subway/Elevated train is only a 29 minute trip, and that's going COMPLETELY out of the way of the Amtrak line **AND** making 15 stops inbetween. On Amtrak, that would have been, at most, 15-20 mins past 30th St Station.


no way the dude fell asleep.

[Brickbat]

77. The way railroad schedules run, they can fall asleep on a dime.

He may have been up 24 hours or more, if they run Amtrak engineers the way they do freight.

[Heddi]

78. Maybe, but I just find it very hard to believe

I think it's more than likely that he didn't fall asleep, given the short distance between last stop and accident. I know narcoleptics, and I know they can fall asleep behind the wheel....(was passenger to one who was cold stone snoring at a red light...drool and all...just dropped mid-sentence and slept)...I'm leaning towards negligence before medical.

[neverforget]

82. The railroad can't work an engineer or conductor more than 12 hours. They are

required to be off work before 12 hours on duty due to RSIA and then 10 hours of undisturbed rest. Every minute after 12 hours is added to the rest period so if I worked 13.5 hours, I would get 13.5 hours off.

http://www.utu.org/worksite/safety/safetyact2008.htm

[Brickbat]

86. Sure, but late calls throw that all to shit.

As I say, maybe passenger train schedules are run a little tighter. Those hours of service mean nothing when you're on call and trying to have a life that's more than sleeping and the railroad.

[bigworld]

45. This happened soon after leaving 30th St Station

I'm leaning more towards the engineer messing around on his phone rather than a nap.

[herding cats]

50. Reuters reporting now Nutter says the engineer did give a statment to police.

Nutter said the engineer was treated at a local hospital and later gave a statement to police.

He said he was mistaken when he said earlier that the train's conductor had given the statement to police.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/13/us-usa-train-derailment-idUSKBN0NY04E20150513

Seems to be some confusion on that part, which is not unexpected all things considered.

[BumRushDaShow]

71. Some of his confusion

is distinguishing the conductor from the engineer. When Nutter was first giving his statement last night, he kept saying "conductor".

Growing up catching the regional rail every day to school, we kids saw the engineers, conductors and "trainmen" (the latter confirmed the trains' couplings) - all different positions... The Penn Central guys (and we remember finally seeing a woman in the position back in the early '70s, which was a pleasant surprise to us), had their titles on their hats. The conductor would collect tickets and make sure that everyone was on or off the train at a stop before signaling to the engineer that the doors were clear, and the train could proceed.... It used to be 2 "buzzes" to "go" and I think 1 "buzz" to stop if someone was late and trying to get on board after the train started pulling off.

[czarjak]

55. Was in Tokyo last month...

Our rail system is a joke compared to the Japanese.

[littlewolf]

58. I was gonna say something really snarky but

with the loss of life I will not. my heart goes out to those families.
2x the speed going into a curve in a populated area not a really good idea.

[LiberalElite]

72. Engineer's been identified -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141092943

[customerserviceguy]

83. And he's already lawyered up.

This should be interesting. Before we develop a self-driving car, maybe we need to work on a self-driving train.

[Stuart G]

81. 2008 Chatsworth Train Collision....25 killed , 135 injured, engineer texting, missed red light

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision

The Chatsworth train collision occurred at 4:22 p.m. PDT (23:22 UTC) on Friday, September 12, 2008, when a Union Pacific freight train and a Metrolink commuter train collided head-on in the Chatsworth district of Los Angeles, California. The scene of the accident was a curved section of single track on the Metrolink Ventura County Line just east of Stoney Point.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which investigated the cause of the collision, the Metrolink train ran through a red signal before entering a section of single track where the opposing freight train had been given the right of way by the train dispatcher. The NTSB faulted the Metrolink train's engineer for the collision, concluding that he was distracted by text messages he was sending while on duty.

This mass casualty event brought a massive emergency response by both the city and county of Los Angeles, but the nature and extent of physical trauma taxed the available resources. Response included CEMP (California Emergency Mobile Patrol Search and Rescue) as a first responding unit requested by LAPD. With 25 deaths, this became the deadliest accident in Metrolink's history. Many survivors remained hospitalized for an extended period. Lawyers quickly began filing claims against Metrolink, and in total, they are expected to exceed a US$200 million liability limit set in 1997, portending the first legal challenges to that law. Issues surrounding this accident have also initiated and reinvigorated public debate on a range of topics including public relations, safety, and emergency management, which has also resulted in regulatory and legislative actions.

=====================================================================

comment: Of course we have no information yet on Tuesday's crash, but anything can be the cause, sleeping, texting, phone call, heart attack, or anything else. But the texting thing happened as did the falling asleep thing. We will find out, but he is alive, and got himself a lawyer. And, there have been crashes at that place before, he must have known it was dangerous. Very sad story that happened. My heart goes out to all families of injured and killed....

[IronLionZion]

84. Liberals: Invest in high speed rail. Conservatives: Kill all rail!

the usual conclusions from these sorts of situations. I like taking the train. It all depends on what you compare it to. Sure Amtrak isn't as good as Europe or Asia's systems. But it is a hell of a lot better than driving up and down the east coast through a grim nightmare of traffic and accidents.

[AngryAmish]

85. Who says the US does not do high speed rail?