Iraqi army 'abandoned tanks, artillery and Humvees' to Isil in fall of Ramadi
Source: Telegraph
The full extent of the Iraqi armys failure in its defeat by Isil in the key western city of Ramadi has been revealed by Washington, which said it left behind tanks, armoured vehicles and other weapons to the jihadists.
A Pentagon spokesman said that the Iraqi security forces (ISF) abandoned half dozen tanks as it fled, along with a similar number of artillery pieces, even more armored personnel carriers and about 100 other vehicles such as Humvees.
The revelation - confirming previous claims by jihadist websites - came on top of allegations by an Iraqi adviser and analyst that army officers had been bribed by the jihadists to hand over plans for Ramadis defence.
Corrupt ISF commanders in Ramadi took bribes in exchange for battle plans and logistical information, Hashem al-Hashimi said on Twitter.
Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11616780/Iraqi-army-abandoned-tanks-artillery-and-Humvees-to-Isil-in-fall-of-Ramadi.html
trusty elf
(7,393 posts)[img][/img]
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)onethatcares
(16,168 posts)Social Security is bankrupting our country.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Yep, good one.
Cost of one humvee is $220K.
Xs 100 = a wad of cash.
And this is only a small portion of what we left there and is but miniscule when compared to the ongoing cost of Cheney's/Bush's illegal war.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Suppose we reduced our military spending by 5% a year over the next ten years, gradually bringing the whole cost down by 50%. It has to be gradual because our economy is dependent on our "investment" in war. We have to transition out of a permanent war economy.
Suppose further that we re-invested half of that in public goods and services, in infrastructure, education, health care, and used the other half to reduce the annual deficit. Imagine what we could do.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)"Defense Spending" is more about siphoning money out of taxpayers and into the hands of a very few people.
Sometimes I'd like to take a page from Lindsey, and send drone strikes against those few people. It would be far more effective than fighting "terror" and drugs.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)in public goods and services, all while reducing the huge public debt. But we can't even have this discussion. Neither political party is even remotely interested. Half the voting population would rise up in armed rebellion, they are so convinced that "gummint" is the problem, and war is the answer.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Bring the troops and equipment back to within the US borders. Get out of these foreign entanglements.
Martin Eden
(12,867 posts)Good news in some quarters.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)If you abandon it, drop a grenade down the hatch/door!
Fucking stupid.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Normal hand grenade ain't gonna hurt the inside of a tank, much.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)destroying the controls will put it out of commission given the lack of repair facilities and parts.
setting the ammo off would do some damage as well.
light vehicles could easily be put out of commission along with ammo dumps and armories.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Sorry, frag grenade's not going to set off ammo.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Why confine yourself to grenades anyway?
At any rate, I'm not sure what the point of your argument is.
You could most certainly put vehicles out of commission with either a frag or concussion grenade.
It just takes a few seconds of thought.
My point is that you can quickly sabotage equipment rather than have it used against you.
Botany
(70,504 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)made me.... asshole of the first degree. That person deserves to be in the docket, in the Hague, being tried for war crimes along with ALL his PNAC buddies. Bolton included.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)I remember when Rummy called soldiers "fungibles."
heaven05
(18,124 posts)along with the 'victors' of this battle, georgieboy and darths-PNAC legacy. 100%. In Vietnam, the SVA did this a lot of times after our 'training'. Deja vu anyone who spilled blood there? Our foreign policy, RW-PNAC especially, has not evolved since 1955. This foreign policy out of the business end of a gun is continuing to destabilize governments and murder innocents, along with creating more enemies who kill more innocents. Something is wrong with this picture.
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)He said that if you gave the South Vietnamese a bridge to hold, that 90% chance that it would be in enemy hands by morning. That the South Vietnamese were just terrible fighters compared to the North. He knew we'd never win there for that reason.
He claimed that at one point some South Koreans were there with them and that they were vicious and they could outfight the North Vietnamese, but that they did not get along well with the South Vietnamese either.
To me the Iraqi Army is the South Vietnamese and the Shiite Militias from Iran are the Koreans of the 21st Century. Just like back then people might argue that more American blood would change the difference but the truth lies somewhere else.
Also think about this: Iraq is a majority Shiite country that was ruled by a Shiite minority. Pretty much shows the majority was unable to fight.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)so true.....
Yupster
(14,308 posts)They took ten times the casualties the US army took.
I read a book recently about a battle in late 1972 when the US had pretty much left the field.
There was a firebase surrounded with a thousand or so ARVN troops in it.
There were two American advisers. The ARVN fought well but one day the two Americans were flown out by helicopter. The next morning the ARVN panicked and only pulled themselves together when two different Americans flew in the next day for a scheduled rotation.
We didn't realize how important those two Americans were. In short the Americans represented two things to the ARVN. One was air support. As long as the Americans were there they knew they'd get air support and resupply. The second reason was even more important though. As long as the two Americans were there the ARVN knew they wouldn't be abandoned. They had little faith in their officers, but they knew they'd be supplied and supported and the officers wouldn't run if there were American advisers there. Without the American advisers the rank and file soldiers had no faith in being supported.
I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar in Iraq.
Kaleva
(36,299 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Daniel537
(1,560 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Historic NY
(37,449 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Track vehicles are notorious for needed maintenance, the general rule of thumb is two hours of maintenance for every hour of operations. Wheeled vehicles are much more forgiving, tires on wheeled vehicles can last 20-50,000 miles, while tracks need to be replaced every 2000 miles (yes, you can go faster, further and cheaper in a wheeled vehicle then a tracked vehicle, the problem is all those advantages tend to disappear once you go off road, and I do not mean onto dirt roads, but through fields, forests, deserts etc. Tracked vehicles can handle those conditions better.
ISIS does not seem to be a unit with a high end maintenance support capacity. They can use the trucks, Humvees, weapons not tied down with a tracked vehicle, but anything with tracks ISIS ability to used them is limited.
Sorry, abandoning tanks and other tracked vehicles is no big deal, but abandoning trucks, Humvees and weapons NOT tied in with tracked vehicles should NOT have been permitted.
If I was in Command of ISIS I would move any captured Tanks to what appear to be "Overwatch" positions over my line and go through the motions of camouflaging them. This is to make them look useful, so any US Air Force Pilot will take them out. They be "bomb magnets". I may even do what the Serbs did in the 1980s, filll them full of concrete so even when hit they looked like they are unharmed and get the Air Force to hit them over and over again. I might have someone move them around ever so often, but the better solution is right after an Air Raid, go to the site and fix up the camouflage and leave them where they are till the next Air Raid.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Abandoned tanks = spare parts!
It is a big deal.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The parts that wear out in Tanks and other Armor Vehicles tend to be the same parts, and since you can stripe them only once, those parts are the first to go. Thus my comment that the lost of these tanks may NOT increase the fighting ability of ISIS (through it does reduce the fighting ability of the Iraqi army).
former9thward
(32,005 posts)Last edited Fri May 22, 2015, 11:29 AM - Edit history (1)
Do you think the Iraqis took the parts with them? Or do you think the Iraqis had no spare parts?
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Those tracks are NOT light. Tank crews are trained to repair the tracks, but after about two weeks or so, they have to go back to the shop and replaced. Every day you have to grease the tracks, if you do not their break even sooner. The MOS shop is while behind the lines, often connected to a rail line (or in the case of Iraq the Tigris and Euphrates rivers). The reason for this is if you carried spare parts, they will be quickly used. Sooner or later you run into the problem of GETTING THE PARTS.
Right now Iraq had 100 US Made M1 tanks, 125 T-72s and 72 T-55s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_equipment_of_the_Iraqi_Army#Armored_fighting_vehicles
If the tanks lost were T-55s, I would be more concerned. Israeli reports on the T-54/T-55 tanks, after the Israeli's captured and used them after the 1967 Six Day War, was it was the easiest tank to maintain in the field. Nothing really came close to it when it came to repairs (Do to this ability, some commentators predict some T-55s may be still in use come 2100, long after both the M1 and T-72s would be long withdrawn from Service).
Yes, the M1 and T-72 tanks are better then the T-55 but NOT when it comes to the level of maintenance. T-55 parts can be obtained almost anywhere (not true as to M1 and T-72 parts).
The Iraqi army has Russian made 334 BMP1s, and 723 US made M113A2, both easy tracked vehicle when it comes to maintenance. The M113 is larger but the BMP1 is a true Infantry Fighting Vehicle while the M113 is a battlefield taxi Armored Personal Carrier. Both could be used and parts are easy to obtained for both. Not as flexible as wheeled vehicles when it comes to road use, but a lot more flexible cross country.
AS to the artillery pieces, I do not see the Iraqi Army keeping their M109s that close to the battle field. If they did I would treat them like the M1s captured. put them some place to draw US fire power while your main attack is elsewhere. Modern electronics have made them more flexible then it comes to firing missions,. but being heavy tracked vehicles subjec to a lot of maintenance.
On the other hand the reports indict Iraq had M198 towed 155 howitzers and some Soviet Made 122 and 130mm cannons. If these were captured could be usable. Among the M113 supplied to Iraq were some equipped with 120mm Mortars. Unlike the guns in the M109 Howitzers, the 120 mm Mortars are designed so that they can be taken out of the M113 and used on the ground. This also means they could be transferred to a truck if the M113 is no longer usable.
Just some comment that if these are T-72s or M1 tanks ISIS would be better off setting them up as Targets for US Planes, while keeping back the older but easier to maintain T-55s. The same with the M109 Howitzers, to much maintenance but the m198 towed 155 would be kept (but my preference would be the 122mm howitzer, easier to set up and move then the M198). Remember as a Guerrilla force, ISIS can not really stand and fight in any one location so anything that can not be set up in minutes and moved in minites should be avoided. I never operated the M198, I was trained on its predecessor the M114 from WWII. Compared to the M101A1 and M102 105mm Howitzers, the M114 took a long time to set up and take down. The M198 is not much better. It was impossible to do a two minute march order with the M114, but you could do it with the M101A1 and the M102, 105 mm Howitzers. I have heard it is also possible with the 122mm Soviet Howitzers. I was also trained on the old 4.2 inch Mortar in a M113, and even dismounted i.e off the M113, a crew could "March Order" it within two minutes. The 120mm replaced the 4.2 inch in the 1980s but its weight is about the same (The reason for the change was the US was the only NATO member NOT using a 120mm mortar, so the US broke down and agreed to replace the 4.2 with the 120, technically the 120 mm is better, but I suspect it is mostly on paper as opposed to real life, but similar papers showed the 4.2 inch mortar was better then the 120mm for decades when both did roughly the same damage in actual combat).
The Ammunition for the 122mm Howitzer, the 130m Gun, the 155 Howitzers, the 120 mm Mortar is readily available along with ammo for the 100mm gun on the T-55. M1 120mm ammo and 125mm ammo for the T-72s is harder to find and obtained.
Just some comments that the lost of the Tanks, unless T-55s, should be little concern to the Iraqi Government except that it reduced the effectiveness of their own army.
former9thward
(32,005 posts)But I think the Iraqi 'army' is pretty hopeless tanks or no tanks.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Fri May 22, 2015, 05:39 PM - Edit history (1)
But if the M1s were taken and ISIS can gets parts from Saudi Arabia (Which has M1 tanks and the ability to maintain them) then the M1 may last a lot longer then the few weeks I give them.
Side note: The barrels of these tanks, the T-55, the T-72 and M1 last only about 2000 rounds. At that point the barrel has to be relined. i.e taken off the tank, and shipped to an armory to get a a new liner.
The Barrel itself is made up of several steel "pipes" (lack of a better term) that fit within each other. The inner most of these pipe, often call a "liner" can be pulled out when the whole barrel is heated and a new one put in its place. This preserves the rifling in the T-55 barrel (the M1 and T-72 barrels are smooth bore, but under go similar treatment do to wearing of the barrel do to the rounds being fired through it).
Rifles do a lot better, 25,000 rounds on average before they have to be re-barreled or replaced. A Modern semi-automatic weapon can fire 40-50 rounds a minute in the Semi-Automatic mode (the mode mostly likely for a shooter to hit something he or she is aiming at). Typical fire fight is 20 minutes (by then US Airplanes are over the battle field). 50 times 20 is 1000 per fire fight, thus after about 25 fire fights the rifle needs to be replaced (Bolt actions rifle only fired 14 rounds a minute, in a 20 minute fire fight, that comes to 280 rounds. The barrel lasts about 25,000 rounds but that is 100 fire fights instead of 25 for semi-automatic rifles. That is way Bolt Action Rifles stayed popular with armies till the 1960s and even today can be an effective weapon.
The key to losing any piece of equipment is can the Enemy Actualy use it? In the case of tanks I have my doubts in the case of ISIS (but Saudi Arabia is "backing them" to a degree so ISIS may be able to update those M1 Tanks.
Now, Machine guns tend to have removable barrels, so that the barrels can be exchanged in combat if they get to hot AND to replace them with new barrels when the old barrels wear out. Even the old Browning Machine Guns, had removable Barrels through NOT quick release barrels like the MAG machine guns being used today by the US Army.