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Marzupialis

(398 posts)
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:07 AM Apr 2012

RFK assassination witness tells CNN: There was a second shooter

Source: CNN

April 30, 2012
Los Angeles (CNN) -- As a federal court prepares to rule on a challenge to Sirhan Sirhan's conviction in the Robert F. Kennedy assassination, a long overlooked witness to the murder is telling her story: She heard two guns firing during the 1968 shooting and authorities altered her account of the crime.

Nina Rhodes-Hughes wants the world to know that, despite what history says, Sirhan was not the only gunman firing shots when Kennedy was murdered a few feet away from her at a Los Angeles hotel.

"What has to come out is that there was another shooter to my right," Rhodes-Hughes said in an exclusive interview with CNN. "The truth has got to be told. No more cover-ups."

Her voice at times becoming emotional, Rhodes-Hughes described for CNN various details of the assassination, her long frustration with the official reporting of her account and her reasons for speaking out: "I think to assist me in healing -- although you're never 100% healed from that. But more important to bring justice."



Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/28/justice/california-rfk-second-gun/?hpt=us_t2



Recommended articles for those interested in the topic: http://www.ctka.net/rfkarticles.html
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RFK assassination witness tells CNN: There was a second shooter (Original Post) Marzupialis Apr 2012 OP
Wasn't his assassination recorded by TV cameras? Renew Deal Apr 2012 #1
It occurred after he gave his speech and went back into the kitchen. RDANGELO Apr 2012 #2
No, it wasn't starroute Apr 2012 #3
Camera wasn't on him at the moment of the shootings in the kitchen pantry leveymg Apr 2012 #4
8 shots vs. 12-14 shots Enrique Apr 2012 #5
It's been long supected. I admire her courage, considering the probability of our Vidar Apr 2012 #6
Sirhan is the patsy Underwear bummer Apr 2012 #9
got a link naaman fletcher Apr 2012 #10
It's referenced at the Wiki leveymg Apr 2012 #16
You got it right. zeemike Apr 2012 #25
Thanks for your reply. Underwear bummer May 2012 #71
And I understand why it is put in the dungeon... zeemike May 2012 #73
Thank you Zeemike Underwear bummer May 2012 #78
I don't think they have any choice. zeemike May 2012 #82
No, the woman in the polka dot dress was to relax him before the murder was to happen snooper2 Apr 2012 #51
You are so right goclark May 2012 #89
of course marshall gaines Apr 2012 #7
There are many books on the RFK assassination that OrwellwasRight Apr 2012 #8
I'm not sure Pres. Obama ever was an outsider... polichick Apr 2012 #12
Not so sure. jaded_old_cynic Apr 2012 #14
I don't put anything past them either. It's possible that they dictated... polichick Apr 2012 #15
You might be right. Either way, it is not a point I feel it is useful to argue. OrwellwasRight Apr 2012 #17
Lets not get overwhelmed here kenfrequed May 2012 #88
Every time I read about these assassinations Tumbulu Apr 2012 #11
I'm with you - it's so depressing and often seems hopeless. These words help: polichick Apr 2012 #13
wow, beautiful, thank you for that (nt) Tumbulu Apr 2012 #20
You're very welcome. :) polichick Apr 2012 #23
That is one among many of his uplifting words. Thanks for bringing it here. He said that in the face freshwest Apr 2012 #42
In the U.S., maybe "only the good die young" should be tweaked: polichick Apr 2012 #47
Whereas the Koches, Kissingers, Cheneys toddle on forever. But that's international. And many young freshwest Apr 2012 #52
You are right freshwest goclark Apr 2012 #53
Article in Salon... deurbano Apr 2012 #18
My BIL served as a medic in Vietnam. Archae Apr 2012 #19
why in the world would you think anyone is "selling" a conspiracy theory? Tumbulu Apr 2012 #21
They are selling it. Archae Apr 2012 #22
You like everything clean and simple, don't you. former9thward Apr 2012 #28
Well they have sold you on the idea that they always tell us the truth zeemike Apr 2012 #31
In his book "Coroner" Thomas Noguchi who performed the autopsy on RFK said dflprincess Apr 2012 #58
Yes it was Ter May 2012 #66
Were the bullets ever tested to see if they came from the same gun? n/t A Simple Game Apr 2012 #24
"If a gun only holds 8 bullets and 14 were found..." Except that is not what is alleged. yellowcanine Apr 2012 #26
Exactly. People who think this is simple have probably never fired a gun. TheWraith Apr 2012 #27
There were more bullet holes found in the kitchen than shots in Sirhan's gun. former9thward Apr 2012 #29
I always see claims like this, but I never see actual evidence. TheWraith Apr 2012 #33
Exactly. Archae Apr 2012 #34
How did Sirhan know he was going to be in the kitchen? former9thward Apr 2012 #36
Change of plan was announced to press corps. RFK on his way to press briefing leveymg Apr 2012 #38
That does not explain how Sirhan knew he would be in the kitchen. former9thward Apr 2012 #41
One has to go through the pantry area to get to the press briefing room. Diagram> leveymg Apr 2012 #46
No his aides testified that he was going to go through the Ballroom to the Colonial room. former9thward Apr 2012 #56
There was a change of plans by Dutton and announced to the press. leveymg Apr 2012 #60
He didn't. He went where the crowd was. He got "lucky". There is a certain amount of "luck" in yellowcanine Apr 2012 #49
No according to testimony he was in the kitchen. former9thward Apr 2012 #55
Well there was a crowd there all right - or at least near by. JFK "route change" is a myth. yellowcanine Apr 2012 #59
Such good luck Oswald had! former9thward May 2012 #75
Or maybe it was a typical route for political motorcades. yellowcanine May 2012 #79
So now Oswald knew JFK would be riding by his window former9thward May 2012 #80
Actually not that tortured. First of all, we don't know when Oswald decided to kill Kennedy. yellowcanine May 2012 #81
Don't forget Gavrilo Princip and Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914 RZM May 2012 #77
Additional shots detected by modern audio analysis software - not available 40 yrs ago leveymg Apr 2012 #39
"several shots went off almost simultaneously." That sounds like echos. happyslug Apr 2012 #62
Are you a professional sound analyst? These guys are - do you think they don't know that? leveymg May 2012 #72
We often rely on second-hand, anecdotal evidence to better validate our opinions LanternWaste Apr 2012 #30
Because it's just SOOOOO difficult to shoot someone... Archae Apr 2012 #32
Actually it is fairly difficult to assassinate a political figure. See my other post. yellowcanine Apr 2012 #50
Exactly. I have talked with Secret Service alumns that said the same thing. grantcart Apr 2012 #40
I've Never RobinA Apr 2012 #45
Yes there can be reverberations and echos which confuse a listener. yellowcanine Apr 2012 #61
That's What I Was Wondering, Too On the Road May 2012 #83
That's creepy. OzMosis Apr 2012 #35
Ace Security guard Thane Eugene Cesar Killed RFK solarman350 Apr 2012 #37
Interesting. Old and In the Way Apr 2012 #43
No, not at the time. He later claimed to have sold his .22 before the shooting, but investigators leveymg Apr 2012 #48
I have seen pictures that show a tie laying next to Robert after he is shot AnotherDreamWeaver Apr 2012 #54
Thanks you upi402 May 2012 #69
The door frame was removed NewYorkerfromMass May 2012 #87
My heart tighens remembering that day. I remember Rosey Grier remarks at the time, but can only find freshwest Apr 2012 #44
RFK would NOT have won the nomination, LBJ already had full controlled of who was to be the nominee happyslug May 2012 #63
Yet JFK beat Johnson and others in the primary in 1960. And.. freshwest May 2012 #64
Thanks for the link to the RFK Jr. post LongTomH May 2012 #84
This message was self-deleted by its author sarcasmo Apr 2012 #57
A 10 year old knows it's MK-ULTRA Ter May 2012 #65
place wingzeroday May 2012 #67
Just saw this story upi402 May 2012 #68
Prof. Philip H. Melanson pioneered the research on RFK assassination... Octafish May 2012 #74
I bought the book on your recommend upi402 May 2012 #91
Heard RFK speak @ College gym up state NY Oct 67 FogerRox May 2012 #70
I was in HS when RFK was shot newspeak May 2012 #76
I share your observations Tumbulu May 2012 #86
Kicking n/t Hotler May 2012 #85
I've actually been in the kitchen where he was shot. Kablooie May 2012 #90
George Herbert Walker Bush. sarcasmo May 2012 #92

Renew Deal

(81,856 posts)
1. Wasn't his assassination recorded by TV cameras?
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:14 AM
Apr 2012

How would that have been missed through all these years?

RDANGELO

(3,433 posts)
2. It occurred after he gave his speech and went back into the kitchen.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:51 AM
Apr 2012

There was some video, but I think it was just after the shooting. There was a lot of confusion.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
3. No, it wasn't
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:59 AM
Apr 2012

There may have been some shots of his party starting to walk through the kitchen area -- and I know for sure there were clips of Kenney lying on the ground after being shot. But there was definitely no TV coverage of the shooting itself or the struggle with Sirhan Sirhan to get his gun away.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
4. Camera wasn't on him at the moment of the shootings in the kitchen pantry
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:01 AM
Apr 2012

Here's a CNN report on new forensic evidence that shows Sirhan Sirhan was never in a position to shoot 13 shots from an 8 shot revolver. See,



Enrique

(27,461 posts)
5. 8 shots vs. 12-14 shots
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:01 AM
Apr 2012

seems like a pretty subtle discrepancy to be bringing up 44 years later.

This is a completely different situation than the JFK one, especially since Sirhan Sirhan is still alive.

Vidar

(18,335 posts)
6. It's been long supected. I admire her courage, considering the probability of our
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:06 AM
Apr 2012

secret government's complicity.

9. Sirhan is the patsy
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:46 AM
Apr 2012

Sirhan should have been paroled decades ago but he will likely rot in prison. Essentially he was a victim of mind control. An easy candidate to hypnotize. We think that the "woman in the polka dot dress" was a visual and perhaps other kind of cue to get Sirhan Sirhan to shoot his gun.

The idea was to catch him with a fired gun and the L/A cops/CIA would cover everything up.

RFK would easily have beaten Richard Nixon in '68. And at that point the war in Vietnam would have ended. Not to mention he would have opened investigations into the murder of his brother. Unacceptable for CIA war mongers.

So who really killed RFK? Probably Eugene Cesar pulled the trigger that fired the fatal shot.

Not surprisingly former L/A police chief Daryl Gates (then a young ranking cop) played a major part in concealing evidence and promoting the official story. It was his cooperation with the powers that be that set him on the path of becoming El Ay's top cop.

Think Rodney King riots. Oh yeah THAT Daryl Gates!...

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
16. It's referenced at the Wiki
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:30 PM
Apr 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories

Another conspiracy theory relates to a Manchurian candidate hypothesis that Sirhan was psychologically programmed by persons unknown to commit the murder and that he was not aware of his actions at the time and that his mind was "wiped" in the aftermath by the conspirators so he would have no memory of the event nor of the persons who "programmed" him.[15] This theory was supported by psychologist and hypnosis expert Dr. Eduard Simson-Kallas after 35 hours of work with Sirhan in San Quentin prison in 1969 after his conviction which Sirhan claim then, and to this day, to have no memory of the assassination or aftermath.[16]
The woman in the polka-dot dress

Kennedy campaign worker Sandy Serrano reported seeing a girl in a polka dot dress running from the scene with a man accompanying her, and claimed that the girl exclaimed, "We shot him! We shot him!". When asked to whom the girl was referring, Serrano reported that the girl said, "We shot Senator Kennedy!"[17][18] Another witness, Evan Freed, also saw the girl in the polka dot dress [19]. This report was connected by alternative theorists such as with another report of a girl wearing a polka dot dress who was supposedly seen with Sirhan at various times during the evening, including in the kitchen where the assassination took place.[20][21] Serrano stated that preceding her supposed encounter with the polka-dot dress girl, she heard a series of shots that sounded like a car backfiring.[17] However, following this claim, LAPD criminologist DeWayne Wolfer conducted tests to determine if Serrano could have heard the shots from her location. He found that there would have been a change in sound level of 1/2 decibel at Serrano's location resulting from a shot being fired in the kitchen of the hotel, and concluded that she could therefore not have heard the shots as she claimed.[22] Additionally, Kranz commented in his report that Serrano admitted to fabricating the story following further interviews with investigating officers and that he was unable to find evidence to corroborate any aspect of the original account[22] However, in the documentary RFK Must Die, Serrano was adamant that what she saw and heard was true. Serrano stated that LAPD SGT Hank Hernandez bullied her into recanting her account; and audio of the 38-minute interview between Hernandez and Serrano furthered her assertion that she was bullied into withdrawing her account.


Main Wiki Article - Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy

As with the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy's brother, in 1963, the senator's death has been the subject of widespread analysis. Some individuals involved in the original investigation and some researchers have suggested alternative scenarios for the crime, or have argued that there are serious problems with the official case.[48]

CIA involvement theory

In November 2006, the BBC's Newsnight program presented research by filmmaker Shane O'Sullivan alleging that several CIA officers were present on the night of the assassination.[49] Three men who appear in films and photographs from the night of the assassination were positively identified by former colleagues and associates as former senior CIA officers who had worked together in 1963 at JMWAVE, the CIA's main anti-Castro station based in Miami. They were JMWAVE Chief of Operations David Morales, Chief of Maritime Operations Gordon Campbell and Chief of Psychological Warfare Operations George Joannides.[49]

The program featured an interview with Morales's former attorney Robert Walton, who quoted him as having said, "I was in Dallas when we got the son of a bitch and I was in Los Angeles when we got the little bastard".[49] O'Sullivan reported that the CIA declined to comment on the officers in question. It was also alleged that Morales was known for his deep anger toward the Kennedys for what he saw as their betrayal during the Bay of Pigs Invasion.[50]

After further investigation, O'Sullivan produced the feature documentary, RFK Must Die. The film casts doubt on the earlier identifications and ultimately reveals that the man previously identified as Gordon Campbell may, in fact, have been Michael D. Roman, a now-deceased Bulova Watch Company employee, who was at the Ambassador Hotel for a company convention.[51]
Second gunman theory

The location of Kennedy's wounds suggested that his assailant had stood behind him, but some witnesses said that Sirhan faced west as Kennedy moved through the pantry facing east.[52] This has led to the suggestion that a second gunman actually fired the fatal shot, a possibility supported by coroner Thomas Noguchi who stated that the fatal shot was behind Kennedy's right ear and had been fired at a distance of approximately one inch.[53] Other witnesses, though, said that as Sirhan approached, Kennedy was turning to his left shaking hands, facing north and so exposing his right side.[54] As recently as 2008, eyewitness John Pilger asserted his belief that there must have been a second gunman.[55] During a re-examination of the case in 1975, the Los Angeles Superior Court ordered expert examination of the possibility of a second gun having been used, and the conclusion of the experts was that there was little or no evidence to support this theory.[54]

In 2007, analysis of an audio tape recording of the shooting made by freelance reporter Stanislaw Pruszynski appeared to indicate, according to forensic expert Philip Van Praag, that thirteen shots were fired, even though Sirhan's gun held only eight rounds.[52][56] Van Praag states that the recording also reveals at least two cases where the timing between shots was shorter than physically possible. The presence of more than eight shots on the tape was corroborated by forensic audio specialists Wes Dooley and Paul Pegas of Audio Engineering Associates in Pasadena, California, forensic audio and ballistics expert Eddy B. Brixen in Copenhagen, Denmark,[57][58] and audio specialist Phil Spencer Whitehead of the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta, Georgia.[59] Some other acoustic experts, however, have stated that no more than eight shots were recorded on the audio tape.[60]

On February 22, 2012, Sirhan's lawyers, William Pepper and Laurie Dusek, filed a court brief in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles claiming that a second gunman fired the shots that killed Kennedy. It was the fourth and final in a series of federal briefs filed under the Writ of Habeas Corpus by Pepper and Dusek beginning in October 2010. A ruling is now pending in the Sirhan federal case.[61]

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
25. You got it right.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:14 PM
Apr 2012

Even back then there were witnesses that the cops blew off...one I remember said he heard the shots and looked in that direction and saw a security guard holstering his gun...the exact opposite of what you would think he should do....that witness was never asked again...and I presume it was Eugen Cesar...

71. Thanks for your reply.
Tue May 1, 2012, 06:35 AM
May 2012

Someone above you asked if I had a link on RFK, Sirhan and the girl in the polka dot dress and WELL Yes several but I'm more an expert on JFK assassination than RFK. And besides my computer is so disorganized it would take me thirty minutes to pull my best stuff on RFK.

Of more current interest recently is the "lone nut" theory in relation to Gabrielle Giffords. ALWAYS have to be suspicious of the "Lone nut" claim by the authorities.

Loughner was supposed to be a reject from the armed services because of a petty Marijuana urine test??? NO ONE gets turned down for military service for THAT! Nah. I say he was a Manchurian candidate. i don't know what Congresswoman Giffords did to earn the wrath of the Dark Forces but it sure smells like a hit. My best estimate is that she was used as a demonstration for other Democratic Party leaders in Congress to not step out of line.

Similar as was poor Senator Wellstone's murder in the aircraft crash. In the immediate aftermath more than a few Liberal members of the Senate and Congress refused to take airplanes. Wellstone himself was threatened directly by V/P Dick Cheney.

The story surrounding his airplane crash doesn't add up. Wolf Blitzer LIED on camera saying what "bad weather" the plane was flying in and it was nearly clear skies at the time.

Sometimes i hesitate to post these kinds of thoughts on D/U. Other forums, like Huff Post will throw all assassination science threads in the dungeon.

Yes most prominent Liberals won't touch these stories. Even Amy Goodman won't touch 9/11. Sad sad thing it is. Her biggest shame really in an otherwise stellar career as a free speech Liberal journalist/radio host.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
73. And I understand why it is put in the dungeon...
Tue May 1, 2012, 09:01 AM
May 2012

And why people don;t touch it....because of fear of being burned.
I recall Jimmy Carter saying that he was surprised by how little power the president had....and the look on his face was telling when he said it.
Let's face it when you have the power to murder anyone you want anytime you are in control of the whole thing...and at some point in our history the black operations realized it and assumed control of this country....and now all they have to do is demonstrate their power from time to time and no one in the media or in a position to make a difference dare say anything.

I think it all came out of the Military industrial complex that Ike warned us about...because the ones who had developed the power of covert and black ops were the ones that realized they had power that was greater than that of a president and started using it when JFK did not go along with the program....and the last think they wanted is RFK as president...and from then on the president served only with the permision of this black cabal...

78. Thank you Zeemike
Tue May 1, 2012, 01:23 PM
May 2012

While this may not make much sense at first (and seems to be a non sequitor) it indicates why I have so much respect for Rachel Maddow.

Despite not being able to discuss the real truth about the Kennedy assassinations and 9/11 I feel she is very brave. In my estimation she crosses the line of acceptability that the dark forces have drawn. The same forces that got Cenk Uygur bounced could easily have knocked her down too but she still perseveres AND prevails. Which leads me to ask you (and the gallery) this question:

Is it wise for the Liberal crowd in the media, what little there is anyway to continue reporting on the somewhat milder issues while avoiding to the bigger ones? Or for examples 1 & 2:

1. Promote good goals like Lily Ledbetter, a woman's choice etc while IGNORING that CIA killed both Kennedys?

2. Strive to reduce military budget, promote green alternative energy while ignoring that 9/11 was an inside job?

Frankly I think that this is the only real choice people like Rachel have. And I accept and love her for her efforts even if they fall short of exposing the really hideous truths just below.

The suggestion that i would make to her, (as well as the progressive types in media like Huff/Post AND D/U as a whole) is to not get so complacent. Lest we become like the battered wife of the alcoholic husband: Complaining about relatively petty issues while regularly he beats the kids, crashes the car and spends the rent money on beer.

Ignoring or avoidance of truths (like who was really responsible for Kennedy murders and 9/11) becomes like avoiding talking about the rhinoceros in the living room. To coin a phrase from my AA buddies.

Or as Edward Abbey used to say:

"I'd rather have an ugly truth than a comfortable delusion"



zeemike

(18,998 posts)
82. I don't think they have any choice.
Tue May 1, 2012, 05:07 PM
May 2012

It is either that or die for the cause...but not die right away...first they punish you by making you unemployable and shutting you up...if you persist and gain a following after that there is always the suicide solution...or a lone nut solution.
there power is and has always been terrorism...and Terrorism only works because it makes the majority afraid for their own safety and so willing to accept the comfortable solution...because you can still live a fairly pleasant life it you just play along.

The only real solution is one that is unlikely to ever happen...for the vast majority to put away the fear and all act together to say the emperor is walking around naked...then it makes the terrorism tactic null and void because if they tried to kill them all they would expose themselves and the jig would be up.
These people have read The Prince by Machiavelli and use it as a play book.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
51. No, the woman in the polka dot dress was to relax him before the murder was to happen
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 05:07 PM
Apr 2012

The cue to shoot was the burnt sirloin steak being carried by a asian man with one bell in the left ear....

 

marshall gaines

(347 posts)
7. of course
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:33 AM
Apr 2012

of course there was. Many people heard it, yet when people came forward as witnesses they were ignored. His brothers assassination the same. some of the people some of the time, not all the people all the time.

OrwellwasRight

(5,170 posts)
8. There are many books on the RFK assassination that
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:41 AM
Apr 2012

indicate there was more than one shooter -- never as much publicity as the JFK shooting of course.

In the early 90s, I went to a a book talk by a French investigator who'd been on the case for a quater century. It was super interesting -- he even had a special guest who had been investigating the weirdness around Chappaquidik. Basically the overall theory was that no further Kennedys could every be allowed to be President of the the US because they were outsiders and likely to challenge the status quo.

Easy to dismiss as a craptastic conspiracy . . . then you see how the biggest outsider ever to be elected President (Obama, the first black President) has taken pains to maintain the status quo.

Anyway, interesting in any case . . .

polichick

(37,152 posts)
12. I'm not sure Pres. Obama ever was an outsider...
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:10 PM
Apr 2012

BECAUSE he has taken such pains to maintain the status quo.

jaded_old_cynic

(190 posts)
14. Not so sure.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:17 PM
Apr 2012

Perhaps there were threats against his family? I know it sounds paranoid, but I put nothing past those people. There is a lot of money and power to be gained.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
15. I don't put anything past them either. It's possible that they dictated...
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:20 PM
Apr 2012

...who would be in the administration, because that was the first clear sign that he would maintain the status quo.

OrwellwasRight

(5,170 posts)
17. You might be right. Either way, it is not a point I feel it is useful to argue.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:32 PM
Apr 2012

Suffice it to say, he was portrayed as an "outsider" to power in the media and by the campaigns in the most basic way possible: African-Americans have not trraditionally been part of the power structure in the US. Ergo, for an African-American to make it to the highest office in the land was supposed to show that a real outsider could make it in our system.

I don't want to argue the truth of that theme -- but it was definitley out there and exploited for both good and ill by those for Obama and against Obama.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
88. Lets not get overwhelmed here
Thu May 3, 2012, 11:16 AM
May 2012

It isn't always a conspiracy.

That said RFK really seems to have been a hell of a lot more than it appeared.

President Obama's problems with giving into the status quo are more of a function of his leadership style. Basically his desire to "create a space where solutions can be arrived at" invites his staff, who seem to be more interested in helping banksters and insurance companies, to only put forth solutions that benefit those people.

Tumbulu

(6,278 posts)
11. Every time I read about these assassinations
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:09 PM
Apr 2012

of the moral leaders of our past, I become so demoralized. The covering up of it- the CIA connections...... it is so hard to take......

polichick

(37,152 posts)
13. I'm with you - it's so depressing and often seems hopeless. These words help:
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:16 PM
Apr 2012

"When our days become dreary with low-hovering clouds of despair, and when our nights become darker than a thousand midnights, let us remember that there is a creative force in this universe, working to pull down the gigantic mountains of evil, a power that is able to make a way out of no way and transform dark yesterdays into bright tomorrows. Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice."

Martin Luther King Jr.

(Bold emphasis is mine. He borrowed this idea fom Theodore Parker.)

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
42. That is one among many of his uplifting words. Thanks for bringing it here. He said that in the face
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 02:57 PM
Apr 2012

Of the lies said against him and the death threats. He was another great loss on the battle for social justice. We would do well to make real his words.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
47. In the U.S., maybe "only the good die young" should be tweaked:
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:50 PM
Apr 2012

"Only the good who threaten the power structure die young."

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
52. Whereas the Koches, Kissingers, Cheneys toddle on forever. But that's international. And many young
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 05:13 PM
Apr 2012

Voices for the good are being silenced worldwide. It appears it was ever thus. But since the days of mass media, these events have a bigger impact on more people, creating our common history. Many heroes go to their end unsung except for their friends and allies.

Archae

(46,327 posts)
19. My BIL served as a medic in Vietnam.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:41 PM
Apr 2012

He gave me some unique observations, that is, he was actually shot at.

He told me even in a crowded room, just one guy shooting could sound like it was coming from 2 or even three places.

A bullet that passes through two people breaking bones can still look like it had never been fired.

As you can guess, he has some rather nasty observations about the con artists still selling JFK and RFK conspiracy theories.

Tumbulu

(6,278 posts)
21. why in the world would you think anyone is "selling" a conspiracy theory?
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:46 PM
Apr 2012

Anyone with two brain cells can see that these assassinations involved many people working together.

If a gun only holds 8 bullets and 14 were found....how would this be a "conspiracy theory" to try to figure out where the other bullets came from?

I hope that in my lifetime truth (whatever it is) can be revealed.

Archae

(46,327 posts)
22. They are selling it.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:54 PM
Apr 2012

New books come out every year, mostly just regurgitating old and discredited theories.

The latest one I've heard of says Lyndon Johnson was behind JFK's killing.

It's been almost 50 years now since JFK was shot by Oswald.

It's been about 45 years since RFK was shot by Sirhan.

To date, nothing CONFIRMABLE points to anyone except those two.

30 years ago a certified nutcase shot Reagan. Was that a "conspiracy" also? Some say it was. Based on nothing but wild accusations.

former9thward

(32,001 posts)
28. You like everything clean and simple, don't you.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:17 PM
Apr 2012

Just like the government wants, 'nothing to see here folks, move along.'

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
31. Well they have sold you on the idea that they always tell us the truth
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:29 PM
Apr 2012

And who do you believe them or your lying eyes?
And I guess it is way out of your comfort zone to believe anyone but them...
so all the witnesses...all the evidence must be a product of a CT and the official story the truth...no matter what.
the emperor is always dressed in the finest of attire....and the children just imagining things...

dflprincess

(28,075 posts)
58. In his book "Coroner" Thomas Noguchi who performed the autopsy on RFK said
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:13 PM
Apr 2012

that the existence of a second gunman was a possibility and that he never said Sirhan killed RFK.

The autopsy results did show the fatal shot had been fired from behind RFK at a distance of no more than 2 inches. -- All accounts pur Sirhan in front of RFK and never near enough for such a close shot even if RFK had turned his back on him.


 

Ter

(4,281 posts)
66. Yes it was
Tue May 1, 2012, 12:51 AM
May 2012

The shooter's had major Bush connections, and his brother was to have dinner with Neil Bush the night before the shooting, that is a fact. It was another case of MK-Ultra. They practiced on John Lennon just two months earlier.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
26. "If a gun only holds 8 bullets and 14 were found..." Except that is not what is alleged.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:15 PM
Apr 2012

What is alleged is that 14 shots were heard. Not the same thing as 14 bullets being found.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
27. Exactly. People who think this is simple have probably never fired a gun.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:16 PM
Apr 2012

Even a small, weak gun like Sirhan Sirhan's .22 revolver is going to be extremely loud and echo in an enclosed space. In those circumstances, the premise that you could accurately place the location of the shots by ear is dubious at best and absurd at worst.

former9thward

(32,001 posts)
29. There were more bullet holes found in the kitchen than shots in Sirhan's gun.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:21 PM
Apr 2012

Which is why the LA PD quickly destroyed evidence (such as the kitchen door which had several bullet holes in it).

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
33. I always see claims like this, but I never see actual evidence.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:30 PM
Apr 2012

Not to mention, it sort of defies reason. The best way someone can think to arrange an assassination is with two shooters, including one "hidden" shooter," in a CROWDED ROOM surrounded by people? Like people are going to hear a second shooter, but nobody sees them for some reason? Or that there's no option subtler than that? Like if you have that much access to the guy, just slip some digitalis in his food or drink, and sit back while he has a fatal heart attack?

Archae

(46,327 posts)
34. Exactly.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:33 PM
Apr 2012

Lots of accusations, but actual confirmed evidence?
"It's covered up by the government/Illuminati/Jews/CIA/whoever."

former9thward

(32,001 posts)
36. How did Sirhan know he was going to be in the kitchen?
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:37 PM
Apr 2012

He was not supposed to leave the stage using that route. He was supposed to go to a side room and briefly speak to some farm worker union officials who were waiting for him. That was in the opposite direction from the kitchen. Someone (no one seems to know who) led him into the kitchen and the shooting started.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
38. Change of plan was announced to press corps. RFK on his way to press briefing
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 02:08 PM
Apr 2012

Here are the details of that from the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Robert_F._Kennedy

Kennedy had planned to walk through the ballroom when he had finished speaking, on his way to another gathering of supporters elsewhere in the hotel.[12] However, with deadlines fast approaching, reporters wanted a press conference. Campaign aide Fred Dutton decided that Kennedy would forgo the second gathering and instead go through the kitchen and pantry area behind the ballroom to the press area. Kennedy finished speaking and started to exit when William Barry stopped him and said, "No, it's been changed. We're going this way."[13] Barry and Dutton began clearing a way for Kennedy to go left through swinging doors to the kitchen corridor, but Kennedy, hemmed in by the crowd, followed maître d'hôtel Karl Uecker through a back exit.[13]

Uecker led Kennedy through the kitchen area, holding Kennedy's right wrist but frequently releasing it as Kennedy shook hands with those he encountered.[14] Uecker and Kennedy started down a passageway narrowed by an ice machine against the right wall and a steam table to the left.[14] Kennedy turned to his left and shook hands with busboy Juan Romero as Sirhan Sirhan stepped down from a low tray-stacker beside the ice machine, rushed past Uecker, and repeatedly fired what was later identified as a .22 caliber Iver-Johnson Cadet revolver.[15]

former9thward

(32,001 posts)
56. No his aides testified that he was going to go through the Ballroom to the Colonial room.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 07:06 PM
Apr 2012

The plan was to shake hands with people on the way. But he was diverted to go through the kitchen where Sirhan was waiting.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
60. There was a change of plans by Dutton and announced to the press.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:23 PM
Apr 2012

He was originally going to meet with, I recall reading, American Indian representatives in a room on the other side of the Ballroom, but that was changed at some point shortly before the address to have a presser in the Colonial Room. The most direct route to that room, as you can see from the floor plan above, is through the pantry where Sirhan was waiting. Somehow, Sirhan learned of the last minute change of plans and was perfectly positioned (that only reinforces the impression that someone was coordinating the assassination.) From the Wiki:

Kennedy had planned to walk through the ballroom when he had finished speaking, on his way to another gathering of supporters elsewhere in the hotel. However, with deadlines fast approaching, reporters wanted a press conference. Campaign aide Fred Dutton decided that Kennedy would forgo the second gathering and instead go through the kitchen and pantry area behind the ballroom to the press area. Kennedy finished speaking and started to exit when William Barry stopped him and said, "No, it's been changed. We're going this way." Barry and Dutton began clearing a way for Kennedy to go left through swinging doors to the kitchen corridor, but Kennedy, hemmed in by the crowd, followed maître d'hôtel Karl Uecker through a back exit.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
49. He didn't. He went where the crowd was. He got "lucky". There is a certain amount of "luck" in
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:53 PM
Apr 2012

most crimes, including attempted political assassinations. For example, Arthur Bremer really wanted to assassinate Nixon in 1972 but he switched to Wallace because it appeared to be an easier proposition. And then he missed his chance to get close to Wallace in Wheaton MD because it was an unfriendly crowd and Wallace opted not to shake hands after his speech. But the crowd in Laurel MD was a little friendlier and Wallace shook hands afterward, giving Bremer his chance. And if it had been raining in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963 as it had been in Ft Worth where JFK attended a luncheon just before the short flight to Dallas, the bubble top of the limo would have been up and Oswald would have missed his chance. And of course the Lincoln assassination hinged on several "lucky breaks" for Booth - the decision by Lincoln and his wife to attend the theater that night even though General Grant begged off going with him and Lincoln's wife almost persuading him not to go because she had a headache. Sec of War Stanton also weighed in against Lincoln going to the theater that night and Lincoln dismissed the offer of his body guard William Crook to accompany them to the theater. And then there was the inattentive guard who abandoned his post outside the theater box door to go across the street to a saloon and get a drink.

former9thward

(32,001 posts)
55. No according to testimony he was in the kitchen.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 07:01 PM
Apr 2012

He did not go where the crowd went -- and the 'crowd' did not go through the kitchen.

Interesting to read about what you call 'luck'. JFK must have been the unluckiest man on earth when his motorcade was diverted from the planned route (the planned route was published in the Dallas newspapers that morning) to go right by the building where his assassin worked! Oswald must have been a fortune teller to know that bit of luck was going to happen! In addition that diversion to go by the Book Depository building forced the motorcade to reduce their speed. How unlucky for JFK!

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
59. Well there was a crowd there all right - or at least near by. JFK "route change" is a myth.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:19 PM
Apr 2012

People came rushing into the kitchen from both directions. Sirhan likely would have been able to get close to RFK regardless of which direction was taken to the press room.

As for the JFK "motorcade route change," it never happened. A word description of the route was published in both the Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Times Herald (evening paper) on Nov 19. It was exactly the same as the final route. A picture of the route was published on the evening of the 21st in the DTH - also the same as the final route taken. There WAS a small map printed on the front page of the DMN the morning of Nov. 22 which was too small to show much detail which was apparently the source of Jim Garrison's mistaken tale of the "route change." This was then picked up and embellished by other JFK conspiracy peddlers.

Account of the "route change" http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

DTH map of Nov 21 - Note Main Street at bottom of map, turn right onto Houston, and turn left unto Elm. The Texas Schoolbook Depository Building was at the corner of Houston and Elm. Kennedy was shot while proceeding up Elm toward the ramp unto Stemmon's Freeway to get to the destination of the Trade Mart. It was in fact impossible to turn from Main unto Stemmon's Freeway without jumping a concrete divider, something a motorcade obviously wasn't going to do. Oswald would certainly have known that.

Description in DMN on Nov. 19


DMN map morning of Nov 22. Note the turn from Main unto Stemmon's Freeway at the Triple Underpass, an impossible turn to make. Clearly the editors reduced detail because of the small size of the map.

former9thward

(32,001 posts)
75. Such good luck Oswald had!
Tue May 1, 2012, 11:32 AM
May 2012

Planning to assassinate the President of the U.S. and he goes right by the window of where you work!

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
79. Or maybe it was a typical route for political motorcades.
Tue May 1, 2012, 01:25 PM
May 2012

It wouldn't have taken a political genius to figure out that JFK and LBJ might be in a motorcade in Dallas sometime in the year or so before the 1964 elections. But I know, it messes up your conspiracy theory. And I noticed how you very quickly moved past the discredited notion that the route was changed which you were so very sure about it just one post ago. Move goalposts much?

former9thward

(32,001 posts)
80. So now Oswald knew JFK would be riding by his window
Tue May 1, 2012, 02:11 PM
May 2012

and that is why he got a job there! I have seen a lot of tortured claims by Warren Commission apologists but that one takes the cake. In no other American assassination, successful or not, did the victim come to the assassin as JFK did with Oswald. Oswald was a political mastermind!

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
81. Actually not that tortured. First of all, we don't know when Oswald decided to kill Kennedy.
Tue May 1, 2012, 04:33 PM
May 2012

He had the rifle already, having probably used it to take a potshot at General Edwin Walker, a right wing anti Communist, in April 1963. So we know he wasn't afraid to shoot at people he disagreed with politically. Maybe he knew that the Textbook building was on a common parade route and/or maybe he just happened to get a job there through a neighbor in Irving who worked there and then only decided to kill Kennedy when the parade route was published on Nov. 19th in both Dallas newspapers. There is some evidence of that actually. Oswald asked for a ride back to Irving with his neighbor on Thursday the 21st to "pick up some curtain rods." Usually he stayed in Dallas and only visited his wife in Irving on weekends. In other words, Oswald was looking for an opportunity to make a big splash by shooting someone famous and Kennedy certainly fit the bill as well as being no friend of Cuba, a country Oswald admired. So how much of it was luck and how much actually planned? It is impossible to know but as assassinations often go, there almost always is some opportunism involved. What I think actually happened is that Oswald was prepared to shoot somebody, and likely took the job at the textbook bldg with the idea that it would be a good place to shoot someone from, given the layout of the Dallas streets around there. Someone thinking like a sniper would have noticed that. The fact that the first opportunity was Kennedy was probably a lucky break for Oswald but I don't think we can rule out that the thought had crossed Oswald's mind that a presidential motorcade could pass by that building. Oswald clearly was politically astute - he was likely following the political situation in the country closely and he probably knew that Kennedy might visit Dallas. The Textbook Bldg is just off of Main Street and the route unto Elm was a likely parade route. Oswald had lived/worked in Dallas as early as July, 1962, so he likely was pretty familiar with the area.

This is mostly speculation of course but something along these lines makes way more sense than many of the conspiracy theories - talk about tortured.

And I notice that you still want to focus on Oswald's luck rather than your own mistaken claims about altered parade routes. Move goal posts much? Clearly Oswald had public information, motives, and the time to plan an attack on Kennedy without the knowing help of anyone else. Doesn't mean he did for sure but it is the most parsimonious explanation to date. Still.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
77. Don't forget Gavrilo Princip and Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914
Tue May 1, 2012, 12:01 PM
May 2012

That was straight-up luck. There had been a failed attempt earlier in the day and Princip was more or less wandering around Sarajevo feeling bad that his cell had failed. He thought it was all over and that they had missed their shot. And then he spotted the Archudke's motorcade by pure chance.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
39. Additional shots detected by modern audio analysis software - not available 40 yrs ago
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 02:14 PM
Apr 2012

when the same audio recording was analyzed by the FBI. Recent analysis shows several shots went off almost simultaneously.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
62. "several shots went off almost simultaneously." That sounds like echos.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:38 PM
Apr 2012

Remember this was a "Modern" motel, with a lot of glass. Sounds bounce off Glass, stainless steel counter-tops, and other flat surfaces (including walls). Given the distance involved, you will have a lot of "Simultaneous" shots recorded with just ONE shot actually fired (With other shots being heard a few seconds later as the sound bounce off other flat surfaces). For this reason sound is NOT the best way to determine how many shots were fired. Flashes and bullets found are more accurate.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
30. We often rely on second-hand, anecdotal evidence to better validate our opinions
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:24 PM
Apr 2012

We often rely on second-hand, anecdotal evidence to better validate our opinions and trivialize those whose opinions are different...


Archae

(46,327 posts)
32. Because it's just SOOOOO difficult to shoot someone...
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:29 PM
Apr 2012

Yeah, radicals like Oswald and Sirhan, and certified nutcases like Hinckley just can NOT get close enough or accurate enough to shoot their targets.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
50. Actually it is fairly difficult to assassinate a political figure. See my other post.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 05:05 PM
Apr 2012

And then if you hit the person they may not die, just as Hinkley's target didn't. It does take a certain amount of luck. Two different women tried to assassinate Gerald Ford. Two Puerto Rican nationalists attacked Harry Truman at Blair House but they didn't get off a shot at him even though he actually looked out of the window at one point when one of the attackers was still standing.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
40. Exactly. I have talked with Secret Service alumns that said the same thing.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 02:20 PM
Apr 2012

It has been clearly proven that eye witness identification can be compromised.

Ear witness evidence should generate even more scepticism.

The room was full of people who were there and their testimony was consistent.

The othe key problem is that the conspiracy theories have to explain why one of America's toughest and most powerful families never had any interest in getting to the bottom of it, if there was any ambiguity.

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
45. I've Never
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:00 PM
Apr 2012

been shot at, but I live in a rural area that has some hunters at certain times of the year. If three different family members are at three different points on the property, including different points inside the house, there are three completely different opinions as to what direction the sounds of shots fired came from. All three have been shown to be dead wrong on occasion. I always laugh at these "sounds of the shots" conspiracy theories. Have people never heard shots fired?

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
61. Yes there can be reverberations and echos which confuse a listener.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 10:42 PM
Apr 2012

Particularly if there are a number of shots in rapid succession. Different listeners will "hear" different numbers of shots, and place the origin of the shots in different places depending on the location of the listener. And the number of shots is more likely to be overestimated rather than underestimated.

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
83. That's What I Was Wondering, Too
Tue May 1, 2012, 05:24 PM
May 2012

I have even seen bullets take a 90o turn after passing through a floor.

If the investigators concluded that's what happened, they should have made their reasoning clear. Or perhaps they did and those proposing a second shooter are ignoring it -- that would not be unheard of from conspiracy theorists.

Not completely ruling out another shooter, which would imply an organized effort. But it is the last option, not the first.

 

solarman350

(136 posts)
37. Ace Security guard Thane Eugene Cesar Killed RFK
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:41 PM
Apr 2012

Ace Security guard Thane Eugene Cesar took the senator's right elbow and led him through the doors of the hallway into the serving area...
.
Powder burns on Kennedy's clothing reveal that all three of his wounds were from a gun fired from 0 to 1-1/2 inches away. And yet, all witnesses claim that Sirhan, who was in front of Kennedy, never got closer than three feet away.
.
Sirhan's gun could hold only eight bullets. Seven bullets were removed from victims, an eighth bullet was traced through two ceilings into airspace, and two more bullets were identified as lodged in the door frame of the pantry by both LAPD and FBI personnel.

Three bullets were found in Robert Kennedy, and a fourth grazed his suit jacket. The upward angle of each trajectory was close to 80 degrees. And yet, all witnesses claim Sirhan's gun was completely horizontal for his first two shots, after which his gun hand was repeatedly slammed against the top of a steam table.
.
All four shots; the fatal penetration to the brain, the shot that passed through the right shoulder pad of the Senator's coat, and two additional bullets that entered Kennedy's body were all fired from the back and all produced powder residue patterns which indicated that they were all fired from a distance of only a few inches. Since RFK was walking towards Sirhan, and his body was always facing Sirhan during the shots even as he fell backwards it is impossible these shots originated from Sirhan's weapon.
.
Terry, Cesar, a recently hired 26 year old, stood to the Senators right as the group passsed into the pantry. Cesar admitted to police that at the time of the assassination he was standing behind, and was in contact with Kennedy, and that when the shooting started he dropped down into a crouching position, and pulled out his gun. This , by his own admission, puts him in a much better position to have caused the upward angle of the wounds than Sirhan. The trajectories of these two bullets were nearly vertical, and the shot fired into Kennedy's brain was, at most, from a couple of inches behind him.
.
The results of the 1968 test firing of Sirhan's gun were missing.
The test gun used for ballistics comparison and identification was destroyed.
Over 90% of the audio taped witness testimony was lost or destroyed. Of the 3470 interviews the LAPD conducted, only 301 were preserved.
.
On August 21, 1968, 2400 photographs from the original investigation were burned, in the medical-waste incinerator at LA County General Hospital.

In 2007, analysis of an audio recording of the shooting
made by freelance reporter Stanislaw Pruszynski
appeared to indicate, according to forensic expert
Philip van Praag, that thirteen shots were fired, even
though Sirhan's gun held only eight rounds.

--If John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy were killed by lone gunmen, why is it so important to keep classified so many documents relating to their cases?

--One of the most tantalizing nuggets about Nixon's possible inside knowledge of JFK assassination secrets was buried on a White House tape until 2002. On the tape, recorded in May of 1972, the president confided to two top aides that the Warren Commission pulled off 'the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated.' Unfortunately, he did not elaborate.

Old and In the Way

(37,540 posts)
43. Interesting.
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 03:02 PM
Apr 2012

Was Cesar's gun ever tested? I have a hard time believing King and the 2 Kennedy's- champions of the little guy - would all have little guy, lone gunman able to kill them, while guys like Nixon and the Bush's have no attempts made on them. We may never know the truth, but I'll never believe the Kennedy assassinations went down the way we have been told.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
48. No, not at the time. He later claimed to have sold his .22 before the shooting, but investigators
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:52 PM
Apr 2012

found that he had actually sold it several months afterwards. The gun was never recovered or tested. Read the Wiki section on Cesar, it's pretty comprehensive.

AnotherDreamWeaver

(2,850 posts)
54. I have seen pictures that show a tie laying next to Robert after he is shot
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 05:57 PM
Apr 2012

It had been reported that the tie was a clip on tie that had been worn by a security guard from Florida. Now I wonder if that guard was Eugene Cesar.

Several years ago I served on a jury. During the period of jury selection I was talking to another prospective Juror, and he stated that his father or grandfather had worked for a phone company, and had been given an emergency job of installing a telephone switchboard system at the LBJ ranch just days before the assassination of JFK in Dallas. He had been taken off the work that had been scheduled for weeks to do that job immediately.

NewYorkerfromMass

(21,185 posts)
87. The door frame was removed
Thu May 3, 2012, 08:29 AM
May 2012

LAPD removed the door frame and it was later burned as evidence. This is the big give away that something heinous was going on.
Think about how hard it is to remove a door frame. The doors are one thing but the frigging frame? Anchored into the walls?

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
44. My heart tighens remembering that day. I remember Rosey Grier remarks at the time, but can only find
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 03:34 PM
Apr 2012

His recent statement of the events of that day. He says in the video that he couldn't stop the shooting, but kept the crowd from possibly killing Sirhan:

http://www.pbs.org/opb/pioneersoftelevision/video/rosey-grier-kennedy-assassination/

RFK would have definitely beaten Nixon in 1968 and our country and the world, would have been a much better place. We'll never know all of it... I hope this woman's testimony will help find all of the malefactors then and ferret out the ones making mischief now.

There are reasons to feel there was a conspiracy, instead of the lone gunman theory, the aberration, the lunatic who acted out of their insanity, or stochastic terrorism. I tend to go with the last, but what Sirhan did or why he did it, I don't know. We didn't have the internet to glean information from then, all we had to go by were the television and newspaper reports.

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. saw linkages. I haven't heard him speak directly about his father's murder. I deeply respect he and his family's firm belief in social justice and their courage to continue their work. The JFK's name ake John, Jr. was said to want to stay as far away from political life as possible, because of what had happened to this family. Then he dies after rumors were started he would run for office. We'll never know.

This may not be totally on topic but it is something that Robert F. Kennedy's namesake wrote for Huffpo about the Giffords shooting. The John Birch Society is mentioned and in recent years we have learned that it was created by the Koch family. Here, he seems to find a relationship to the death of his uncle, President Kennedy:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/post_1548_b_807713.html

Just a little more to consider when looking at this tragic event.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
63. RFK would NOT have won the nomination, LBJ already had full controlled of who was to be the nominee
Tue May 1, 2012, 12:04 AM
May 2012

We have to remember this is 1968 NOT 1972, do to the reforms adopted after the 1968 Conventions AND more states opting for primaries as opposed to State conventions to select delegates to the national conventions, 1968 was the last time primaries were NOT the main way for someone to win the nomination. In 1968 the national conventions was still controlled by state parties, and LBJ had those non-primary states already in his pocket by the time of the California primary. In the convention RFK had enough votes to cause problems, but no way to stop the nomination of Humphrey, LBJ's choice to succeed him.

Here is the map of who won what state's primaries in 1968, please note only 13 states out of 50 states had primaries, in the rest, 37 states, the delegates to the national convention was by state convention and LBJ already controlled those by the time of the California primary.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_1968

More on the post 1968 reforms that made the primaries the main way to win delegates to the Democratic National Convention:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGovern-Fraser_Commission

Compare that to the 1972 primary campaign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_1972

Sorry, under the rules that existed in 1968, there was no way RFK could win the nomination. Even if LBJ would have died in office before the Convention, his vice president Humphrey would have inherited what LBJ had set up and thus still received the nomination. Thus no matter what happened after California, Humphrey was going to be the Democratic Nominee for the simple reason LBJ wanted it.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
64. Yet JFK beat Johnson and others in the primary in 1960. And..
Tue May 1, 2012, 12:14 AM
May 2012
Johnson was not running in 1968, he'd already announced that he would not seek another term.

If the machine that was LBJ couldn't stop a Kennedy in 1960, why in 1968?

The reforms you base your assumption on were also not in place in 1960.

What I said was:

RFK would have definitely beaten Nixon in 1968.

Are you trying to say that LBJ put in Humphreys in place to lose to Nixon?

That RFK could not have beat Nixon in 1968?


We will never know for sure whether what you or I have to say on this matter would have happened.

Having volunteered and worked the phone banks for the Democratic Party in that presidential campaign, talking to people and walking the streets, I can tell you that the enthusiasm for Kennedy was quite high.

When Kennedy was killed, I worked with the Party to get Humphreys in. The enthusiasm was nowhere near as high and Nixon got in office.

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
84. Thanks for the link to the RFK Jr. post
Tue May 1, 2012, 06:19 PM
May 2012

Last edited Tue May 1, 2012, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

This is worth reading for the historical background, no matter what your position on the RFK assassination is!

Edited to add: RFK Jr's comments on the background in Dallas reminded me painfully of Oklahoma, where I lived at the time. Our RW asswipe newpapers: The Tulsa World and Tulsa Tribune were as bad as Fixed News. And please, please don't make me remember the editorial page of my hometown newspaper!

Response to Marzupialis (Original post)

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
74. Prof. Philip H. Melanson pioneered the research on RFK assassination...
Tue May 1, 2012, 10:40 AM
May 2012

From his must-read book...



The Robert F. Kennedy Assassination: New Revelations on the Conspiracy and Cover-Up, 1968-1991

p16
... the LAPD continued to resist for three more years-until letter campaigns and media coverage made it politically inexpedient to keep the information secret any longer. On April 19, 1988, the files were sent to the California State Archives in Sacramento, where researchers could evaluate the evidence for themselves.

The files made it clear that the LAPD had engaged in a massive cover-up, both during the original investigation and in the intervening twenty years. They'd not only attempted to misconstrue or overlook data that didn't support their lone-assassin view, but they'd actively destroyed evidence that might suggest a conspiracy... Now it learned that:

* The results of the 1968 test firing of Sirhan's gun were missing.
* The test gun used for ballistics comparison and identification was destroyed.
* Over 90% of the audiotaped witness testimony was lost or destroyed. Of the 3470 interviews the LAPD conducted, only 301 were preserved. Key testimony-like 29 witness accounts that suggested conspiracy-was missing, while less important interviews-like that of Sirhan's Bible teacher-remained.
* On August 21, 1968, less than two months after the assassination, 2400 photographs from the original investigation were burned, in the medical-waste incinerator at LA County General Hospital. The LAPD claimed that the photos were duplicates, but there weren't any known logs or inventories of photos that could verify that.


Moreover, Scott Enyart, an amateur photographer who'd been taking pictures the night of the assassination and whose film had been confiscated by police, has never been given back all his photos. His pictures, the only ones that might have captured the actual shooting, weren't in the files.

But even with the limited data that remained, there was still ample evidence to substantiate what critics had been saying all along-that there was a conspiracy to kill RFK.

The evidence for such a conspiracy falls into three key areas. First, it now appears clear that it was impossible for Sirhan to have fired the bullets that killed Kennedy - which means there must have been a second gunman. Second, an abundance of testimony by eye-witnesses suggests that Sirhan had at least two accomplices. Third, Sirhan's political motive-his hatred of RFK for supporting Israel-seems to be either a fabrication of the LAPD or a motive planted by conspirators to divert suspicion 1 from a more sinister plot.

p20

Evidence for a second gunman

... The autopsy revealed three gunshot wounds in Robert Kennedy's body-one behind the right ear, a second near the right armpit and a third 11/2 inches below the armpit wound. A fourth bullet missed his body but pierced the right rear shoulder of his suit coat. All bullets entered from the right rear, at fairly steep upward angles and in a slightly right-to-left direction.


CONTINUED...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/FBI/Who_Killed_R_Kennedy.html



Corporate McPravda has done NOTHING to cover Dr. Melanson's work or others who have studied the assassination of Sen. Kennedy. Of course, the press corpse does it can to help the nation heal and move on, seeing how the LAPD and FBI got Sirhan Sirhan in jail and up for parole every five years or so. Little gets mentioned of the particular circumstances of the case and nothing truly memorable ever is broadcast on the tee vee.

Thank you, upi402, for never giving up hope things will change. With enough people giving a damn, they yet might.

upi402

(16,854 posts)
91. I bought the book on your recommend
Thu May 24, 2012, 12:45 AM
May 2012

Your thoughts mean a lot to me.
fwiw

My gut tells me something stinks. And sometimes, when something walks and quacks like a duck, it really is a duck.
The venom some have for questioning the line is disheartening.

newspeak

(4,847 posts)
76. I was in HS when RFK was shot
Tue May 1, 2012, 11:50 AM
May 2012

I remember turning on the telly after being out that night and actually watching when he was shot. I went into my parents bedroom crying and told my parents, they shot RFK.

One thing about the kennedy family was that "service" to the people, to the country was ingrained at a young age. Y'all can pooh pooh the so called conspiracy theories, but I think the oligarchy has been ruling for quite some time. Remember that "business plot?" You think they just went away, especially, when nothing, absolutely nothing was done to them.

Oswald "i was just a patsy." Sirhan, "I don't remember shooting." Ah yes, the texas boys,as nixon called them. And, I remember when Ron Reagan publicly stated that his father did not trust the bush family.

I read about the security guard being a suspect; but it's amazing that the LAPD, on a historic case, just happens to destroy evidence. Wow, what a coincidence. I mean really, a historic case and evidence is destroyed or compromised.

It's amazing that those who have caused more damage to this country and its' people, aren't in the cross hairs; but those who actually give a damn about this country are. With our corporate owned propaganda machine, and the character assassination or real assassination of anyone who actually believes for fighting for the people, especially against big business, and with questionable election fraud; we're already a big banana republic.

Kablooie

(18,634 posts)
90. I've actually been in the kitchen where he was shot.
Thu May 3, 2012, 11:55 AM
May 2012

And I saw no grassy knoll anywhere so there couldn't have been a second shooter.

(The hotel was torn down a few years ago.)

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