This Court Case Could Unshackle Americans From Student Debt

[uawchild]

Source: BloombergBusiness

When Robert Murphy said he wanted to try to get his student loan debt erased, the person overseeing his bankruptcy case told him he had a better shot of getting hit by a bus. Now he’s closer than ever to victory.

The unemployed 65-year-old, acting as his own attorney, spent three years appealing his way to the Boston federal court that is now considering his case. A win for Murphy would relieve him of hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt—and could fundamentally change the way U.S. bankruptcy courts handle borrowers who can't repay college loans.

At the center of Murphy’s battle are federal rules that make it nearly impossible for borrowers to get rid of student loans. Most consumer debt goes away in bankruptcy, which was designed to give Americans and companies a fresh start. But in the 1970s, Congress added new rules to the law that excluded most student debt from that relief.

Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-08/this-court-case-could-unshackle-americans-from-student-debt

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"Student loans", with no risk to the lenders, have become a new debt peonage scam. As well intentioned the idea might have been in the 1970's to encourage more lending for education, the current economic climate makes paying back theses loans extremely difficult for today's students. Being $90,000.00 in debt with a college degree and only having a minimum wage job has become common place.
The loans have become predatory since the lenders know the recipients can't seek relief thru normal personal bankruptcy.

[Orrex]

1. Student loans are more or less identical to indentured servitude

[Major Nikon]

2. This is especially true when you consider the involvement of private educational institutes

They enroll students with the promise of easy money and provide them with shit education that few complete.

[skepticscott]

3. Then don't take one out

Don't try to finance an education that you can't afford and that isn't worth it to you.

[newthinking]

4. But the current paradigm all but drives the population to have diplomas

I agree from a personal standpoint better not to.

But on the other it is our current system that is essentially driving a severe need for advanced education. So since the paragons of industry and government more and more require it of their employees they should also absorb some of the risk. Either that or they should be supporting higher education itself instead of creating demand and then spunging off individual public debt.

[erronis]

8. That's true. But the advanced degrees don't really help that much.

It may be another conspiracy (theory) but it seems like the education system (for and non-profit) is promoting pieces of paper that they can't prove enhance success. Perhaps the same bloodsuckers involved in the corporate hiring rackets are also part of the university marketing group...

[CoffeeCat]

97. But the economy is set up so...

...that if you don't have a college degree--things can be pretty rough for you.

If you don't have a degree, you are forced to work for shit pay, with no benefits and no vacation time--most likely.

Many jobs don't require degrees, but you'd be competing with some people who do have degrees. Not having a degree would haunt you, unless you have some specialty skill or talent.

Even if you do have a degree, there are no guarantees. My husband has computer science degree and we've felt the full force of this crazy economy. Stagnant wages, soaring healthcare costs, fewer benefits and raises once every two or three years. Look at many professions that REQUIRE degrees--teaching, journalists, lower-level business. The pay is terrible.

I live in the suburbs and I see this DAILY. White-collar professionals are struggling. Households with two income earners are having a tough time, because everything is so damn expensive (food, healthcare, utilities, cars, gas, etc) and wages have stagnated. Plus, we're all trying to save for our kids' college education--which is 80k per kid--for an in-state university.

Given all of these circumstances--which will probably only worsen--how in the hell do you tell your kids to NOT get a degree. If you don't get one--you are assigned to a life of miserable jobs and crap pay. All of a sudden--because these vultures have priced-out a college education--our kids are supposed to all go to welding school or be receptionists? It really sucks...

We're all so screwed.

[erronis]

102. Great post! Damned if we do and if we don't. Strange how they worked this out...

[CoffeeCat]

122. Yeah, so strange isn't it?

I've come to the conclusion that it's not coincidence that we are being screwed from multiple angles.

I feel squeezed and trapped. It's like the walls are closing in.

Between the following things:

Stagnant wages
Companies paying less for employee healthcare premiums (we pay $550 when we used to pay 0)
Food prices that have doubled (I pay double from what I paid 6 years ago. Prices have gone sky high).
Gas prices that have doubled (or tripled, depending on the day of the week!)
Exorbitant college costs that cripple young people
No more pensions
Outrageous pharmaceutical and healthcare costs (even if you have insurance, the prices are CRAZY)
The high cost of purchasing an automobile (We're all supposed to relax and finance $50k for a car/truck)
Increased utility bills (water, electric, gas, cable, phone have soared)
Low minimum wage, trapping hardworking people in poverty
Food prices are high and contain CRAP that leaves you poisoned, lethargic, sugar-addicted and hating life.
Federal cuts to help poor families eat, senior citizens heat their homes and the needy get through rough times.
Proposed (Republican) cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security
Proposed (Republican) tax-break windfalls for millionaires, billionaires and wealthy corporations.
Proposed (Republican) elimination of the Earned Income Tax Credit and Home Mortgage Interest Deduction.

There's so much more. But it is obvious that we are being screwed as workers, consumers, parents and families. Meanwhile, the billionaires and millionaires and corporate mucky mucks are living large and clinking cocktail glasses with our elected representatives.

I asked my husband, "Sometimes it feels like they're trying to kill us." His response, "They're not trying to kill you honey. They just don't care if you die."

I think he's right.

[nolabels]

136. Thanks for the laundry list and a reality check

The scary part is that it is not hyperbole, an organized plan or even much of an exaggeration. Moreover it's evidenced to be just the cold dry facts that mostly can only be glossed over with sparkling shining babbles and shrines

[skepticscott]

9. Well, according to Orrex

student loans are the same as indentured servitude, so how can it not be better to just point for a job that doesn't require a college degree, rather than borrow money to get one?

[meow2u3]

21. Jobs that don't require a college degree usually don't pay as well

And by the way, why blame the student for borrowing instead of the schools that promise a good paying job after graduation and have no intention of delivering?

[leftofcool]

34. Which State Universities have promised jobs?

I know the degree mills ones do like Phoenix and Devry etc..........but I have never heard of any state U that promises jobs.

[meow2u3]

45. No state universities have promised jobs

But a lot of them have jacked up tuition rates, which forces people to choose between taking out loans for an education which increases their likelihood of getting good paying jobs later and a crappy paying job without a degree.

[TexasBushwhacker]

91. They have jacked up tuition because states have cut

spending on education , especially at the college level.

[christx30]

96. They have jacked up tuition because

they know they are going to get paid no matter what. They know people will be willing to get education loans, no matter they cost. Who cares if they'll be able to pay the loans back in 20 years? The university still gets it's cut.

[Salviati]

128. exactly...

if you look at the actual cost of a college education, it has actually increased at a rate that is generally below the rate of inflation. The price to students, however, has skyrocketed, because students are expected to shoulder a much higher fraction of that cost than students had to in the past. At public universities, the tuition crisis can primarily be laid at the feet of the state legislatures, and those we elect to represent us.

[1monster]

36. More like the company store than indentured servitude or payday loans...

The interest on these loans are undefensible and they add penalties for late payments.

I had paid off my student loans, or so I thought. But five or six years later, I received a letter saying that I still owed $2.32 and because I had defaulted on that $2.32, I was being charged an additional $115.00. (Apparently, the $2.32 was interest that accrued after I received the final bill and before I paid it.) I called and told the rep that I'd pay the $2.32, but there was no way I'd pay the $115 late fine. She agreed and wrote off the $2.32...

That was around the time that Congress started passing laws that allowed banks to stick it to the students and their parents. My loans dated from the time before that.

[aggiesal]

7. Here's the problem

Back in the 80's when I went to college, on average approximately 80% of education costs was subsidized by the government, in the form of federal and state grants.
And 20% came from the student. On campus jobs, because it was in essence a government position would raise the 80% amount and lower the 20% amount.

Now students attending college have to absorb approximately 80% of the costs with government only subsidizing 20%.

When I graduated, I had $700 in student loans.

[skepticscott]

11. The reality is not what it probably should be

but that still doesn't mean that it makes sense to incur 6 figure student debt to finance a college degree.

[jeff47]

61. And what alternative do you propose?

Options for 18-year-olds today:

1) Go to college. You can't possibly "work your way through" anymore, because tuition is too high.
2) Work at a fast food or WalMart quality jobs. For the rest of your life.

You can't go to work down at the factory anymore. You can't even get a job as a secretary without a bachelor's degree anymore. You will have a hard time finding work in an better-than-WalMart retail job without a degree anymore.

The fact is right now there are zero other options. You can wish that there were other options, but that doesn't make them actually appear before today's 18-year-olds.

So it's debt, or the bottom of the income ladder unless you won the genetic lottery.

[TexasBushwhacker]

94. You don't have to rack up triple digit debt

Go to community college for the first couple of years then transfer to a state supported university or a private university that has plenty of financial aid available. Don't major in the liberal arts without getting a teaching certificate unless you plan to go on to a graduate or professional degree. Seriously, why would someone major in English or history without getting a teaching certificate. Don't major in something that requires a graduate or professional degree unless you are prepared to go all the way. Don't go into triple digit debt to study the fine arts. You can be an artist, musician or actor WITHOUT getting a college degree in it.

As for working your way through, I think you still can, but it means going to school part time, continue living with your parents and doing everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Understand the career path of your chosen profession. Don't rack up debt at a cooking school if you think you're going to be anything other than a line cook for a few years after you graduate.

Are high schools and parents doing a good job advising kids about careers and college? I wonder. Or maybe the kids aren't listening.

[jeff47]

95. Double digit debt quickly turns into triple digit when you can't pay.

then transfer to a state supported university or a private university that has plenty of financial aid available.

So....beg for money.

Don't major in the liberal arts without getting a teaching certificate unless you plan to go on to a graduate or professional degree.

So while begging for money, you should plan on incurring more debt getting a masters or higher.

As for working your way through, I think you still can, but it means going to school part time, continue living with your parents and doing everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Uh, no. You really can't. Lots of public universities are in the $20k/year range now when you include books and other non-tuition fees, for a full-time student. If you go half-time, it is not half-price. So you end up paying much more while doubling how long it takes to get your degree.

Meanwhile, the McJob you can get while going to school is going to do things like refuse to give you a set schedule. Making it not possible to schedule your classes. And it isn't going to pay enough for you to feed yourself, get to and from that job, and pay for college. And that's assuming you 1) have parents, who 2) have a place for you to live and who 3) can afford for you to live there rent-free for the next 8 to 10 years under your plan.

Are high schools and parents doing a good job advising kids about careers and college? I wonder. Or maybe the kids aren't listening.

No, the main problem is the enormous number of adults who can't understand that getting a degree is not the same as back in their day.

[TexasBushwhacker]

120. Geez, you want some cheese with that whine?

"So....beg for money. "

Anyone who needs financial aid and doesn't apply for it is a damn fool.

"Meanwhile, the McJob you can get while going to school is going to do things like refuse to give you a set schedule. Making it not possible to schedule your classes. And it isn't going to pay enough for you to feed yourself, get to and from that job, and pay for college. And that's assuming you 1) have parents, who 2) have a place for you to live and who 3) can afford for you to live there rent-free for the next 8 to 10 years under your plan."

Yes, I assumed that most prospective students have parents. My bad! If you tell an employer you need a regular schedule because you want to go to school, you will likely be able to find one. It may not be your first choice, but that doesn't mean there are any of those jobs out there.

"No, the main problem is the enormous number of adults who can't understand that getting a degree is not the same as back in their day."

I'm aware that things have changed and I was very fortunate that my parents could afford to put me through a state supported school. But there are still good careers that don't require a 4 year degree. Want to go into medicine but can't afford to go to med school? Become an x-ray, ultrasound or CAT scan technician. Median pay for an ultrasound tech is $70K! Even a medical assistant, which takes less than a year full time, makes $30 to 35K.

I have a friend who just turned 49 who has been working in construction all his adult life, but physical work in the trades can be harder as you get older. He was ready for a change, so he went to truck driving school. Class A truckers can make over $60K a year.

There are always options, unless you think there aren't any.

[jeff47]

130. I apologize that reality is not as ruggedly individualistic as you'd prefer.

Anyone who needs financial aid and doesn't apply for it is a damn fool.

The point that went sailing over your head is there is nowhere near enough financial aid to cover everyone who is eligible for it. So you don't just have to apply for it. You have to beg for you to get it instead of the pile of other deserving applicants.

If you tell an employer you need a regular schedule because you want to go to school, you will likely be able to find one.

Someone hasn't tried to get an entry-level job in a very long time.

But there are still good careers that don't require a 4 year degree. Want to go into medicine but can't afford to go to med school? Become an x-ray, ultrasound or CAT scan technician. Median pay for an ultrasound tech is $70K! Even a medical assistant, which takes less than a year full time, makes $30 to 35K.

And you will be rejected in favor of applicants who have a bachelor's degree. Even "secretary" de-facto requires a bachelor's degree today. Why? Employers can throw out everyone who doesn't have one, and still have plenty of applicants.

Class A truckers can make over $60K a year.

As long as they don't mind being on the road except for DOT-mandated breaks. And have enough cash to buy their own rig, which costs more than a college degree. If you want to work for someone else's company, so that you don't have to buy your own rig, you'll be making much less.

Class A truckers can make over $60K a year.

And one option is to get a degree via student loans. Rejecting that option because "debt bad" greatly restricts your other options. You won't die, but "not die" is rather low bar.

Our current higher education system is designed to screw over a significant number of people. We should fix that instead of saying "you won't die"

[Hassin Bin Sober]

134. I almost stopped reading when he said he was fortunate to have parents that could afford to ...

.... put him through college. I'm glad I didn't because I would have missed the story about his "truck driving" friend. His friend is in for a big fucking surprise.

I love how the resident free market libertarians are for free markets for the peons but ok with legislative backed backed indentured servitude based laws for the banks' benefit.

The banks own the collection companies now. The loan defaults, the lender sells the paper to their collection arm, collects money from the federal government based on the guarantee, and hounds the borrower in perpetuity for what ever blood legal fees, fines and penalties they can squeeze out of the turnip.

[riderinthestorm]

100. $20k/yr in-state tuition and fees at the U of Illinois

Tack on another $11k for room and board.

You'll make @ $12k working full time at your McD's job
(Which is impossible going to school full time).

And financial aid? Bwah! That's not guaranteed. Counting that in isn't realistic since its such a wild card.

You aren't in the realm of what it costs nowadays to get a degree...

[TexasBushwhacker]

132. Yup, Illinois us one of the more expensive states

when it comes to in state tuition and it always has been. When I was in college in the late 70s in Texas I met a few kids from Iilinois that told me it was cheaper to pay out if state tuition in Texas than in state tuition in Illinois. I guess nothing has changed in 40 years. Have the voters not raised hell about it?

http://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/

That's not the case for UT, because everyone wants to live in Austin and they have more applicants than admissions, so they really stick it to the nonresidents. But I think some of the smaller state supported schools are probably cheaper, even for nonresidents.

[bvar22]

109. "why would someone major in English or history without getting a teaching certificate?"

...possibly for the love of the written word?

History generally teaches us WHAT happened.
If we bother to read the lit available from that time period,
we can determine WHY something happened.

School used to be about Following Your Bliss,"
not about how many dollars you can make when you get out. I'm very grateful I was a member of the "Follow Your Bliss,
and "Question Authority" generation.

A person with a solid Lit degree should be able to sell themselves in just about every situation. They will have a stronger vocabulary, can usually write a better resume',
and be knowledgeably conversant on a wider range of subjects....

[christx30]

113. That'll be really handy at the

English lit factory that just opened down the street.

For good or for ill, someone's worth as a human is determined what you can do for others (please see Alec Baldwin's speech in 'Glengary Glenross'). If you want the taxpayers to invest thousands of dollars in your education, study something that you can actually use. Someone has a love of learning, and a love of the written word? That's great. You can be the best spoken barista at Starbucks.

I'm instilling a love of science and technology in my kids right now. I hung a model solar system from my son's ceiling when he was 2. By the age of 3, he could name all of the planets. Those skills, and others, he can use to get into a science program, and get a good job.

"Follow your bliss. But get someone else to pay for it."

[bvar22]

115. I have found most of your statements to be untrue....at least in my life experience.

I have talked my way into several jobs I wanted for which I was unqualified simply because I could hold an interesting and intelligent conversation with the interviewer.
I could usually have the interviewer putting down my Resume' and talking to me within 15 seconds. (consistent eye contact alone can sometimes accomplish this)

It helps if you can hang around the "break room" for a couple of days to pick up any info that may help. "Happy Hour" at the closest bar will also be a good place to pick up info that will help you in an interview. It is amazing how much information a drunk will give you for the price of a drink.

You may have a meeting with Security, but this has always disappeared when I told them I was there for a job interview, and was extremely nervous. The biggest problem after that was getting Security to shut Up.

YMMV,
but I have never regretted the choice I made to Follow my Bliss and get my Bachelor's in Literature, though I have seldom worked in that field.
I was able to talk my way into much better paying positions way outside my degree.
(AND...when I look at the stars at night, I get to hear Walt Whitman.)


This country lost its soul when College began to be seen as a place to go to make money,
instead of getting an education.

[christx30]

117. I applied for my current job

and answered every technical question he asked. He shook my hand and told me they'd let me know. I got the call with the job offer before I had traveled 3 blocks from the office.
Now, 3 1/2 years later, I'm one of the top agents on the floor. I'm the guy they want to sit new people with to put them into good habits of helping customers. I help my customers. Helped this one woman today lock her abusive ex out of her account so he couldn't get into the security system of the house.

I make a positive difference in people's lives. It's not glamorous, but I feel good at the end of my day.
And I don't have a $50,000 student loan over my head.

[Gormy Cuss]

139. You wanna know what's a waste of taxpayer dollars? Paying for diploma mill degrees.

What isn't a waste is a good liberal arts education because liberal arts grads are far more likely to have the tools to adapt quickly to the changing workplace. They tend to be better writers (and business needs good writers,) better critical thinkers, and have reasonable knowledge levels of math and science , all tools which help them adapt with changing business needs. And BTW, there are STEM majors within liberal arts programs. It's not an either or.

I've known too many people who chose college paths based on a vocational interest they had at 17 but by the time they've been out in the workforce for a few years they realized they hated it or the vocation became obsolete. This was particularly true with two year degree holders from private occupational schools but I've also known computer science and engineering majors with B.S. degrees who found themselves in this situation. Most went back for more schooling in a different career path.

[TexasBushwhacker]

121. So what kind of work did you end up doing?

If you love the written word or history, there are these things called LIBRARIES. If you want to write, write. There are plenty of careers that aren't going to generate "bliss". I'm a bookkeeper and I don't expect anyone gets misty eyed about accounting. But the world needs bookkeepers and accountants. The thing that's nice is that I make enough money that I can indulge in blissful activities, like travel.

It used to be that a lot if companies had management training programs that just required a 4 year degree in anything. But things change don't they? About 60 years ago, many women going to college were not expected to graduate because they were there to get their Mrs. Thankfully birth control pills came on the scene in the 60s and along with the women's movement, young women started thinking about having a career outside the home.

[HarpboyAK]

138. You need a MLS to be a librarian

You might work in a library with an Engish Lit degree, but you will be a lowly minimum wage Library Assistant. In order to be a Librarian these days, you need a Master of Library Science degree. A Bachelor's degree doesn't cut it in libraries these days, even small town libraries, and there a lot of unemployed people with MLS degrees as cities and schools cut back library hours as austerity measures.

[daleanime]

12. I don't think it's possible.....

to disagree more. What problem can we solve by making America dumber?

[skepticscott]

13. How much smarter do you get

by spending 100K on a college education than 30K? You assume that sitting through 4 years of college is guaranteed to make people smarter, and I don't think it's possible to disagree more.

[daleanime]

14. No one is encouraging 100K loans....

on the other hand, it probably a good bet that you believe in the phrase 'over-educated'. Have a lovely night.

[skepticscott]

16. Oh no?

Then what in the world is leading people to incur that much debt?

And can you be too educated? No, probably not. But you most certainly can borrow/spend far more than you need to in order to reach a certain level of education.

[jeff47]

63. What do you think happens when you can't pay that $30k loan?

Interest and penalties pile up. Which lead to more interest and penalties. And your $30k loan becomes a $100k loan.

[Hissyspit]

77. Oh, got it.

Higher education makes people stupid.

Right.

[BlueJazz]

25. Exactly. The scenario some speak of here (Don't borrow) might work if Americans were...

...only competing against a level playing field. Unfortunately, for those who have to run up debt, in order to secure a top-notch degree...(as some science professions require), people have to compete against students with wealthy parents plus the entire foreign workforce, whose countries seem able to pay for their students education.

[Orrex]

22. Well fuck! Why didn't I think of that?

Unfortunately, when everyone from educators to parents to counselors to peers to colleges to media to industry and everyone in between is telling a seventeen year old that college is the only way and loans are the way to finance it, it becomes a trifle difficult to anticipate how the gloabal economy 25 years in the future will affect your prospects a quarter century down the line.

So if your intent is to scold, then I have several suggestions for where you can stuff it. But if you can offer anything productive, then I'm all ears.

For the record, indentured servitude wasn't mandatory either, but people submitted to it because it seemed their best option even if they somehow failed to foresee the consequences decades later.

[Maven]

30. +1000

I love it when the scolds come out on student loan threads. "Well you should have had more responsibility and not taken out loans you couldn't afford." Genius! If only you'd been there to advise me when I was 17 and everyone including my mother (and father) told me that a premium education was the key to financial success in life, all my problems would have been solved! I guess those of us who bought the BS (and weren't lucky enough to have parents pay for it all) deserve to be debt slaves with no hope of building a future. Makes sense now.

[smirkymonkey]

119. I am so sick of these self righteous jerks.

They don't know how most of us got in over our heads. What unfortunate turns of events got us into the situations that we now find ourselves in. They remind me of Christian Fundamentalists.

[Maven]

123. It's amazing how much foresight and worldly knowledge they expect kids and young adults to have

Hey, you're barely old enough to vote, but here, sign your financial future away! You want a good education and a bright future, dontcha?

Somehow these same people never think to blame banks for predatory practices and years of expensive lobbying to take away debtors' rights. Or universities that kept hiking up tuition while facilitating loans to students. Personal responsibility doesn't apply to them, apparently, only to the borrowers. Funny how that works, isn't it?

[skepticscott]

42. Well, I suggest you get out there

and tell the world how taking on student debt is just like being an indentured servant, since that will apparently solve the problem.

And since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll reiterate the more productive and far less hyperbolic suggestions I've made in this thread. Don't borrow ridiculous amounts of money to fund an education that you could get much more cheaply. And certainly don't EVER borrow money to fund an education that will take you 25 years to pay back. Don't engage in foolish, heedless self-indulgence or chasing your "dreams", with no thought as to how those "dreams" will be paid for. Or, as noted, don't shoot for a job that requires a college education. According to you, that will avoid indentured servitude, so how can it not be better?

[Orrex]

62. Since you don't know what you're talking about, I'll explain it for you

Well, I suggest you get out there and tell the world how taking on student debt is just like being an indentured servant, since that will apparently solve the problem.

More scolding. How awesome it must be to be you, with no problems and all the solutions! Golly, you've got it so together!

Don't borrow ridiculous amounts of money to fund an education that you could get much more cheaply.

More scolding, this time in the form of a meaningless platitude. Do you think anyone sits down and says "I'm going to borrow a ridiculous amount of money that I can get much more cheaply?" What kind of fairy tale do you live in? And one hardly needs to borrow "ridiculous amounts of money in order in order to be crippled by subsequent economic realities entirely outside of their control.

And certainly don't EVER borrow money to fund an education that will take you 25 years to pay back.

More scolding, and meaningless to anyone who's already stuck in the grinder, so thanks for piling on insult to injury. Again, do you think anyone sits down and plans to be unable to pay a debt for a quarter century?

Don't engage in foolish, heedless self-indulgence or chasing your "dreams", with no thought as to how those "dreams" will be paid for.

More scolding. Meaningless, and utterly divorced from reality. In my entire life I have met no one who did this.

Or, as noted, don't shoot for a job that requires a college education.

More scolding, also meaningless, and an exhortation to failure besides. And how does this help people already victimized by the system?

According to you, that will avoid indentured servitude, so how can it not be better?

That's an impressive number of fallacies crammed into one sentence, but since it's chiefly a straw man, I'm under no obligation to refute it.

I'm sure that you congratulate yourself for your own success, and I'm sure that you imagine that you did it on your own or with minimal help, and I know from long experience that there's no point in trying to convince that kind of bootstrapping Horatio Alger born-on-third-baser.

As is always the case in these discussions, you speak with no awareness of reality and you act like everyone else is clueless. That's pitiably delusional, and I frankly stand to gain nothing by unscrambling your nonsense for you.

Everyone in this thread sees you for what you are, and I'll waste no further time on you. Reply if you wish, or don't. I won't see it, so it makes literally zero difference to me.

You offer no actual suggestions outside of finger-wagging, so let me tell you where to stick that finger. Hint: it involves touching your uvula, and it doesn't involve opening your mouth.

[Yupster]

70. I have a suggestion

It's an easy three step program.

1. Borrow a boatload of money.

2. Don't pay it back.

3. Blame everyone else for your bad judgement.

It's as easy as 1-2-3

[Live and Learn]

82. Only the banks can get away with that!

What the hell kind of post was that anyway?

[Yupster]

92. Maybe I'm too old for this group

I remember where I was when John Kennedy was killed.

"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

To this old geezer, it seems like every day this board is full of threads of I want free college, I want free healthcare, I want higher minimum wage, I want more paid days off, I want free college textbooks, I want free birth control, I want sopmeone else to pay back my debts, etc, etc, etc.

I've lived so far a pretty long life, but it's amazing how much our thinking has changed in just one lifetime. Kennedy's quote has been exactly turned on its head today.

I know this sounds like grandpa lecturing "these damn kids today," and I'm sure no one wants to hear it.

[jeff47]

93. You speak of a time when public universities were free, or nearly free

And you're pissed off that "the kids" want what you received.

In fact, you're calling us selfish and greedy for wanting what was given to you, because you don't want to pay for it.

[Live and Learn]

99. +1 And health care was much more affordable back then too. nt

[zazen]

103. hell to the yeah n/t

[Orrex]

86. I have a suggestion. Two of them in fact:

1. Don't comment on matters you don't understand, or else you wind up looking like a Republican bonehead who wandered into the wrong forum.

2. Never mind--the second one would get me banned.

[Hissyspit]

78. Yes, don't do anything unless you KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

Jesus fuck.

Higher education is not just about getting an individual a job.

[kristopher]

111. What is your personal experience with this issue?

You come across as a dogmatic preacher who lacks any insight into the mechanics of the problem you are pontificating on.

So please share with us your example of how you navigated the rocky shoals of a hollowed out economy, stagnant wages, sky-high levels of young adult unemployment, and sky-rocketing tuition costs.

We really, really look forward to sharing in your wisdom.

[magical thyme]

23. easy to say, until you take out student loans based on gov. statistics that

claim long term growth in the field (14% for the next 10 years in my situ), the STATE University claims 100% employment, and the local HR reps LIE to you and classmates about the salary range.

By the time you find out you've been told a string of lies, it's too late and you're on the hook for thousands in loans, half your class can't even get job interviews let alone hired in the field, the other half has been offered 2 days/week per diem so they'll be at the beck and call of the hospital with no way to schedule another p/t job around the ever-changing, last minute per diem schedule, the State University rep is at your graduation "celebration" sweating bullets while giving a song and dance about how you need to just "hang in there" and "you should see the numbers in 5 years" to a group of "celebrants" who look shell-shocked, except one grey-haired old lady with murder and lawsuits swimming in her eyes.

One classmate in his late 50s quietly says, "I can't wait 5 years. I need a job NOW." And the young woman sitting next to you is in tears, and says, "I don't understand. They said 100% employment. These are all part time jobs." And of course, you realise that if you don't get work in the field within 6 months or so, you'll start forgetting everything you learned and they'll be a new class of fresh graduates every year competing for the non-existant jobs.

And being one of the lucky ones and having gotten one of those p/t per diem jobs that is at 75% the hourly rate you and classmates were quoted, with no per diem differential, and not enough to live on let alone pay off the student loans that you'd expected to be able to pay off early... you realize that the degree wasn't worth it to you.

And all the sacrifices you made, the hours and hours you put in, sweating it out, working p/t, studying full-time, straight A's in pre-med level sciences and clinical sciences, to graduate summa cum laude, was just one big fucking joke to the corrupt, lying, thieving scumbag pig-bastards that are sniggering at you while they drive off in their new hummers pulling their yachts to their vacation homes on the water.

Yeah. Really simple. Just don't get a fucking degree in anything because it's all a big, fat, fucking corrupt lie. ALL. OF. IT.

[Marthe48]

53. Well said!

I can't tell you how glad I am that our daughters got in and out of college and student loan debt before the universities discovered the deep pockets of the student loan scam.

I have a nephew who has student loans, developed health problems, couldn't work, couldn't get disability, and I was astonished that he couldn't get out from under the loans. I thought, he must be wrong, but nope, he wasn't. It seems that the statute of limitations never runs out on 2 things: student loans and murder.

Given that state universities are moving from 4 year degree programs to 5 year degree programs, and that even people interviewed on NPR admit that the best thing about a 4 year degree is that it proves you can learn, I have stopped believing that going to college is the best way to go. I tell people now: get a job that can't be down-sized or out-sourced. Electrician, pipefitter, welder, nurse, hair-stylist.

I hope this guy wins!

[TexasBushwhacker]

133. I agree with you about non-college careers

They can even be something that's a stepping stone to getting a 4 year degree. One of my dorm mates had gotten her beautician's license specifically so that she could have a GOOD part time job while she worked on her bachelor's degree. While the rest of us were toiling away with low paying jobs in fast food and retail, she was making $10 to $20 an hour cutting hair in 1976! So smart!

[Marthe48]

137. Yes

If you can color hair, you have it made

[Cheese Sandwich]

28. True, don't take them out, but that's not help to those already stuck with inescapable debt

I wouldn't advise people to take out any new debts but 10 or 20 years ago there wasn't as much awareness about it.

At that time it still seemed like a pretty safe bet for most people. The economy changed underneath us.

So either we're going to let a lot of people fall through the cracks, or we need to offer some debt relief.

[closeupready]

116. So true. In just the last 15 years, the US textile industry

has been gutted, and offshored to East Asia. No matter how talented you are as a designer, you'll be looking a LONG time for a job if you are out of work, stateside.

[Arugula Latte]

31. Really?

You think poor/middle class kids taking out loans to get a degree to have a shot at a job they want is the problem, and not the predatory loan/banking system?

[skepticscott]

46. Taking out loans that are

extravagant, to finance the most lavish and prestigious education they can get, with no mind towards how it will all eventually be paid for, or whether it's worth the inflated cost, yes.

[Arugula Latte]

51. Well, even lowly public state schools can cost "only" $15,000 - $25,000 a year.

That's about as cheap as gets these days, unless you're one of the few who get significantly subsidized rides to college.

You could go to community college for two years, and you'd still be facing at least $25,000,000 to $40,000 in "inexpensive" college costs for the next two years.

Even if you "only" take out $15,000 in loans, you're going to wind up paying a hell of a lot more than $15,000 over the course of your loan.

How far do you think most kids from poor/modest backgrounds are going to get without a degree? Flipping burgers is going to lead to a life of the basic comforts? Uh huh.

[christx30]

74. There are jobs in between lawyer

and McDonald's. I work in technical support for a cable/internet company. I make a decent living, having never stepped foot in a university.
College isn't for everyone. But anyone that takes out $15,000 or more in loans for anything needs to rethink it. College is expensive because universities know people are willing to pay for it. Because they know that student loans are easy to get and hard to pay off.
But if you do get a loan, make sure you focus on things that can actually get you a good living. Don't expect someone else to pay off your “Philosophy And Star Trek” (Georgetown University) or “The Textual Appeal of Tupac Shakur” (University of Washington).

[jeff47]

105. Yes, and they require a degree.

I work in technical support for a cable/internet company. I make a decent living, having never stepped foot in a university.

And assuming you're receiving typical tech support pay, you will be unable to afford to raise one child unless both parents work. We used to consider that not a decent living.

[Hissyspit]

76. Stupid teenagers!

[Ed Suspicious]

37. FUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKK!!!!!!!

All my life tgey told me the only way to get ahead was to get a degree. So I get a degree and they tell me I got the wrong degree, and hey, youvhave a degree but nevervlerlarned that a degree is a waste of time and money? What are you, stupid? Fuuuuuckkkk!

I would be in a better spot if I were a drug dealer

[Hissyspit]

75. Ugh.

God forbid American society invest reasonably in its betterment.

Simple-minded thinking on your part.

[Live and Learn]

81. Yep, let's keep our populace dumb with only the rich being able to afford an education.

And then wonder why the US keeps falling behind the world in everything. Great idea!

[JackRiddler]

135. Yeah, 18 year old, go find a job!!!

You expect an education? What is this, Europe? Next you'll be asking for minimum wages and paid vacations.

[threethirteen]

140. Indentured servants didn't have to come to the US either, but they did.

Your statement is rather ignorant. Especially when you consider that FILE CLERKS need a BA.

Indentured servants were looking for a better life too.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. One of Biden's key problems, there.

http://www.ibtimes.com/joe-biden-backed-bills-make-it-harder-americans-reduce-their-student-debt-2094664

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. The reason lenders sign off on six figure loans to 18 year olds is that lack of risk.

The downside of success in his case is lenders exercising due diligence. They'll only give loans to good bets. If you're preferred major has "studies" in the title... probably not getting a loan.

[skepticscott]

10. And the more risk there is

the higher the interest rates. Everything has to be paid for eventually, by someone.

[jeff47]

64. Or we could be like every other developed country on the planet

and not use personal debt to finance university educations.

[SheilaT]

15. Good.

If students could get out from under the debt by declaring bankruptcy, that's a good thing. It should make the lenders think a bit harder about how freely they lend the money in the first place, which will initially hurt new students, but maybe some of them will start to rethink the entire thing about borrowing tens of thousands of dollars in the first place.

At the very least, the interest rates on the loans should be extremely minimal, in the neighborhood of 1%.

[skepticscott]

18. As noted, if you increase the risk of default

interest rates are going to go up. Simple economics. People who do pay back their loans will be required to subsidize those who can't or won't. The money has to come from somewhere, somehow. If you make it harder for private lenders to make even a reasonable profit, they will stop lending money for that purpose at all.

[SheilaT]

38. It shouldn't be private lenders at all.

The money should come from the government, very low interest rates, but make the lending and the amount lent a bit more realistic. Borrowing 80k to get any degree that doesn't have lots of jobs in that field is utterly stupid.

The problem is, a 19 year old kid isn't very likely to check out the job prospects for his favorite major, and many parents don't either. There's nothing wrong with getting a certificate from a local junior college for something that has plenty of paid employment. Yeah, spending four years studying anthropology or art history or 17th century French poets might be very intellectually satisfying, but kids need to understand quite clearly that at the end of those years they need to be supporting themselves. Too many parents just go along with what the kids want to do, then let them move back home, rather than making it clear from the start that after college they're on their own.

And of course, the lenders happily lend them as much money as they want.

My younger son majored in psychology, and with my encouragement minored in marketing. I figured that was a pretty employable combination. After he graduated, cum laude I must brag, he returned to what he did during summers: pizza delivery. Six months after college he relocated to Portland, OR, where he still lives, still does pizza delivery. He doesn't ask either of his parents for money, because he knows we'd tell him to get a better job. More importantly, he really likes delivering pizza. He only works four days a week, supports himself, has friends, plays ultimate Frisbee, and so on. Yeah, it would be nice if I could brag about what a fabulous white collar job, but he's happy, and that's important.

He did leave college with no debt, thanks to the generosity of grandparents. But were they not helping, he'd have gone first two years to the local (excellent) junior college, then finished up at a state university. He did have a partial scholarship to the school he went to (University of Tulsa) but he was not the kind of kid that was going to get a full ride anywhere.

[Yo_Mama]

41. Since 2010 the money does come from the federal government!

The vast majority of the loans out there are federal debt, meaning the taxpayer loans the students the money.

We now have income-based repayment plans, and an awful lot of those loans will never be repaid.

I think that students were just told in school that they have to go to college, and accepted it. For many, going to college is a bum deal these days.

[SheilaT]

43. Thank you for setting me straight.

But the interests rates are still unconscionable.

I agree that for too many kids going to college is automatic, they never think through why they should go, what they should do when they get there (except maybe party) and what they're going to do when they get out.

And I think that overall, fewer than half of the people who start school ever get a degree. Which to me is a strong clue that a lot of them maybe shouldn't be going in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge proponent of learning just for the sake of learning, and I'm someone who has attended college on and off most of my adult life, although it's currently about 8 years since I last took a class. I've got a lot of credits to my name, and one associate's degree/paralegal certificate. I'm equally big on practicality. Which is why I suggested my younger son do the marketing minor, and why I'm perfectly okay with his current career.

[Ichigo Kurosaki]

57. I think the .gov student loans are over $1.2 Trillion right now. [nt]

[Yo_Mama]

44. The federal government makes the vast majority of student loans.

They took it over in 2010.

The reality is that a lot of this debt isn't going to be repaid, and the taxpayers will have to make up the deficit.

One way or another, those loans are going to be paid by the young people, because most of the next generation of retirees are going to be poor.

The kids are going to paying higher taxes to make up for all the defaults.

[jeff47]

65. Yeah! Those people should spend the rest of their lives flipping burgers!

Bachelor's degrees (or equivalent trade school) are de-facto required for all but the very bottom rung of jobs now. Because we've spent so many decades fucking over labor that employers can just exclude anyone without a degree and still have applicants to spare.

How dare those kids think they should have any sort of decent future.

[Yupster]

71. Why would a lender make you a loan at 1 %

when he can buy a CD paying more than that and get his money back in two years and have it FDIC insured.

[roamer65]

17. This debt has to be paid somehow.

Any proposals that don't involve taxpayers taking the hit?

[byronius]

27. John Adams had the right idea.

He believed that free education as far as anyone could take it (i.e., doing the work and maintaining a GPA) should be a cornerstone of any democracy, because it strengthens the basic fabric of the nation, enriching everyone.

However, we seem to generally think personal hoarding is far more important than fabric-building.

Which is why we kind suck right now.

John Adams, man. Dude was awesome.

[roamer65]

35. How did Adams propose to pay for it? N/t

[byronius]

47. Taxes. n/t.

[Ed Suspicious]

59. Nobody ever questions how to pay for it when we decide it's time to drop bombs on middle eastern

moms.

[Live and Learn]

83. Isn't that amazing?

We can't afford nice things but war and killing, no problem.

[Live and Learn]

84. Please quit pretending this is not possible. California had free college education until Reagan

became the Governor. It worked quite well and CA did quite well in educational standards at the time.

But I think your question was completely disingenuous anyway. I am betting you are actually against free education and an educated populace. Now the only thing to determine is why. Are you afraid it will lessen your advantage?

[appalachiablue]

55. How to pay for college? With a modest tax on Wall Street speculations. When the banks

burned down the economy they came to the US Govt.,-US for rescue and we gave them trillions. Now THEY can help out Americans and the middle class. Period.

[Hissyspit]

79. No, it doesn't.

[riderinthestorm]

104. Yes, a 1% tax on all stock transactions.

That would fund all school and health care costs.

[Hoppy]

19. But why should this particular source of debt be exempt from bankruptcy?

The only other source of debt so delineated is an I.R.S. judgment but even those can be negotiated under certain circumstances.

Before Biden's law was passed, how many student loans were in default? How many are in default now?

[magical thyme]

24. I suspect it is far, far worse now than it was before this law.

[jeff47]

66. Tuition was far, far lower before that bankruptcy law. (nt)

[Yupster]

72. If it wasn't exempt, wouldn't every kid

just declare bankruptcy upon graduation and get rid of his debt? You wouldn't have any assets to protect right out of college so it would just seem like the automatic thing to do.

[Xithras]

101. So window it.

The solution to that is simple. No bankruptcy on student loans until 7 years after deferment ends. Nobody is going to deliberately live like a pauper for seven years just to clear their student debts. Seven years provides the student with enough time to either establish a career, or to establish the fact that the career just isn't going to happen.

[Hissyspit]

80. There were many voices at the time that argued it shouldn't be.

And for a while, it looked like it would be included in the reform.

But there was money to be made, and plenty of politicians with simple-minded attitudes like that demonstrated early on in this thread.

[Hoppy]

20. Note to student loan banksters : Stuff Happens !

[Live and Learn]

85. +1 nt

[appalachiablue]

26. Three family generations went to college, left with no debt & found good jobs. What happened?

Voodoo free market Reaganomics. Solution: Student Debt Jubilee. That's it. Period.

[byronius]

29. This^^^.

[mike_c]

48. +1

Yes.

[Arugula Latte]

52. Yep. This blame-the-victim shit makes me sick.

[Orrex]

68. Yeah, that agenda seeps out like pus every time one these threads starts up

It's amazing how strongly some people feel the need to scold. Very progressive.

[Marthe48]

54. In my own mind

I blame Nixon. He was really pissed off at all the hippies protesting the war, and I think he helped engineer the oil crisis of the early 1970's to screw the job market, the economy, push prices up, and generally ruin the Baby Boomers' entire lives. Or maybe whoever pulled the strings back then (like Cheney and Bush Sr.) meant for the Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y and Millennials to spiral down into poverty and stay there, destroying the middle class for good and all.
But that's in my own mind.

[appalachiablue]

67. That's not out of the realm of possibilities. The growing activist middle class and large

number of college educated Americans who began making demands on business and govt. in the 1960s was enormous. No useless wars; civil and equal rights for blacks, women and gays; regulations on business, demands for clean air and water, safe automobiles, etc.

Consumer advocates like Rachel Carson who wrote "Silent Spring" in 1962 on the dangers of chemical pesticides and Ralph Nader's consumer protection work "Unsafe at Any Speed", the 1965 book that critiqued the safety record of the auto industry, were causing a major new awareness among Americans.

The establishment couldn't handle the threat to their bottom line and the social change, so they strategized to shrink the empowered large middle class and the number of kids going to college, in favor of returning to 'old order' conservatism where advanced education, security, power and privilege were only for the wealthy few. And so it's a real mess now-

[Marthe48]

88. Yes it is

I can look back on my own education, and see a progressive theme, especially in American History. I read Silent Spring a few years after I got out of high school and it influenced my outlook. I can't help thinking that the neonicotinoids are just as bad as DDT. This year, I have seen few flies, moths, bees, wasps, mosquitoes, haven't heard frogs along the river. It is scary that we are losing diversity and the loss is ignored.

One of my history teachers said that social change, revolution, comes from the middle class. The poor are too busy trying to survive and the rich want to maintain the status quo. In our time, the people who could benefit dig in their heels and support the status quo as if they have an stake in super wealth. Henchmen of the rich.

[Enthusiast]

112. That is precisely the problem. Voodoo free market Reaganomics.

[appalachiablue]

114. Good ole Dutch, RIP

[Dustlawyer]

32. Hope there are some good lawyers with a lot of student debt willing to help out!

[Scalded Nun]

33. When I see stronger laws governing businesses I will consider pressing individuals

to live up to their debt obligations.

So many companies gut themselves intentionally, many times stealing pension funds and demolishing worker's futures, then just walk away, patting themselves on the back as they go. Bankruptcy is never a problem for them. They would sure like to live up to their obligations, but dammit, they can no longer pay pensions as the 'pot' is empty. 'Stuff' happens.

That is not only sanctioned, but championed by many.

So many times the student borrowers fall victim to not only the schools and lenders but the economy. Yes, they can and do make bad choices along the way as well. I do not make excuses for all, but I seriously doubt the majority of their student debt was accumulated with the intent to defraud, unlike many corporate actions.

I hope this plays out well.

[newthinking]

50. This!

[TexasBushwhacker]

90. "That is not only sanctioned, but championed by many."

Like Donald Trump, who never had to take out student loans but "took advantage of the bankruptcy laws" to save he s ass.

[smirkymonkey]

125. Hear, hear!

[WillyT]

39. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[MichMan]

40. Not the best example

The plaintiff in the case mentioned was a 50 year old president of a Manufacturing Co who took out 265K in loans to pay for his 3 kids college education.

I understand the argument of a naive 17 year old taking out loans and not understanding what they are getting into, but this doesn't seem to fit that model.

While I understand he is now unemployed and can't pay, what kind of adult aged kids would let their senior dad lose all his retirement savings paying for their education without taking some responsibility for it themselves?

The definition of a hardship needs to be broadened & better defined as there are many in need of relief, but I do not support allowing anyone to discharge student loans carte blance through bankruptcy. I can't buy a Tesla and a McMansion, declare bankruptcy and get to keep them, however unlike those, a degree cannot be taken away.

If we allowed someone to get a MBA at an Ivy league school by borrowing 150K, let the debt get discharged in bankruptcy after they graduate, and then waltz off to a cushy 6 figure job on Wall Street, the entire student loan system would collapse.

[mike_c]

49. that's why higher ed should be publicly subsidized...

...and the cost to students-- all students-- should be zero. There should not be a "student loan system" that serves mainly to monetize young people's hopes and dreams for a better future.

Fair disclosure: I am nearing the end of my career in academic science as a full professor with almost as much student debt as I had when I began paying it off nearly 20 years ago. I pay over $800 a month toward my debt. I've been doing it for about 18 years. The principle of my debt has declined from $75K to $70K. Read that and weep. That's what I do.

[Yupster]

73. If you owed $ 75,000 at 6 % interest

you'd be paying 4500 per year interest.

If you are paying $ 800 per month ( $ 9,600 a year), then your loan balance would go down $ 5,000 the first year and a little more each year until it would be fully paid off in 10-11 years.

On the zero cost thing, zero cost to all students, should the taxpayers pay for a young person to study Byzantine Art for five years and show up in class once a week getting C's, D's and F's. When you say "all students" do you really mean that? Is there really not any limits that you would put that would be considered abuse of the taxpayer?

Should a hard working coal miner with a high school degree really be paying taxes so someone can study Byzantine Art for five years. Couldn't the coal miner use that tax money better taking his kids out to a ballgame once in a while?

[mike_c]

108. my loan is at 8+% (either 8.25% or 8.45%, can't recall offhand)

Everyone who looks at my payment history and outstanding principle says "that's impossible." But that's what it is. When I retire, after 20+ years of making monthly payments a bit over $800, my loan balance will be about $6K or $7K lower than it was 20+ years ago. I'll still owe well in excess of $65,000 (the original principle was $75K). That's a lifetime debt, that cannot be repaid during my remaining working years.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

56. I know someone who had their wages garnished for ten years and NONE of it went to the loan....

The debt was passed on to another collection agency and they said there was no record that she had ever paid anything. Unknown to her the prior collection agency must have gotten a judge (probably on the payroll) to rubber stamp her loan as being in default to obtain the court ordered garnishment however NONE of that money was actually applied to the loan. It all went to the collection agency for fees and late charges. A decade of hundreds a month

She got copies of the payroll records with the garnishment clearly itemized and they claimed they were "probably forged" and that no payments to the loan were recorded by the Department of Education.

[niyad]

58. k and r

[niyad]

60. welcome to du, and thank you for this important post.

[lancer78]

69. Good

Hopefully if people can get out of their student loans through bankruptcy, then the lenders won't be willing to finance as much as the "college" wants for tuition. This should help tuition costs go down.

[Orrex]

87. Victims of student loans must be prevented from benefitting from bankrupcty

If they were allowed to escape their debt peonage through mere bankruptcy, the world would end immediately.

But if you're a one percenter, you can declare bankruptcy four times or more, incur one billion dollars in personal debt, and still be treated like a wise and serious businessman during your preposterous run for the presidency.

[appalachiablue]

89. +5 Two 'justice' systems.

[ileus]

98. Only 5 more years and we'll be free.

Almost 500 bucks a month...

[riderinthestorm]

106. K&R! nt

[WDIM]

107. All student loan debt should be erased.

Education is a right. Student loans are nothing but a scam used to indebt huge segments of the population who are only pursuing their right to prosperity.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

110. Politicians claim the answer to joblessness is education....

So you end up with people with degrees working at Arby's.

[WDIM]

124. Corporations receive the biggeat benefit from education.

Corporate taxes should be paying for it. But instead you get 40,000. or even more indebt the cost for a college education is insane compared to 30 years ago.

Then you work some crappy paying job just because its a job and you gotta pay that debt.

They created student loan debt to prevent people in their mid-twenties dropping out of the work force and pursuing other interest like in the Sixties when college graduates would drop out and go protest or try to start a revolution. Now after graduation you better go to work for the next 30 to 40 years.

[Sliceo]

118. Good

[yurbud]

126. for a while after grad school I had $1200 a month payments but my school wouldn't release my

transcripts until I paid back a balance I owed directly to them, so I couldn't get a job that would help me pay it back.

Once I got college teaching jobs (it takes a couple to make a living), I didn't have health insurance, but I did have an ongoing medical expense, so I had to pay sporadically, which more than doubled my debt from $50K to 120K.

[Babel_17]

127. We need very cost effective two year colleges

Those that would be happier in a trade can find that out quickly and inexpensively (and take with them the benefit of having been in college). Those that can't decide on a major can learn how to learn, and learn the essentials.

And please, please, please, can we offer more trade schools? My Union Local spent a lot of our money to build one and it has helped trained a lot of people to become well paid union workers.

Let's train millions of young people to build/rebuild this country. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, pipe fitters, iron workers, drainage workers, road workers, etc., etc., etc., are all people who spent time learning their skills. Let's train more of them.

And there other careers of course that require training, but don't require a degree. Let's start getting kids in High school more excited about learning a trade.

And let's serve notice that government will start steering young people to more cost effective schools. We can incentivize that and break this cycle of rising tuition.

[TexasBushwhacker]

131. I'm much more keen on subsidizing community

colleges for this very reason. Private trade and medical technician schools are too expensive. The same goes for private cyber colleges like University of Phoenix.

I'm also fine with funding tuition at 4 year universities for degree plans that have a career path. If you want to follow your bliss and study Elizabethan poetry that's fine, but not on the taxpayer's dime. I think there should be grade and progress requirements as well. If you have less than a B average 2 semesters in a row, the free lunch is over.

I think we have to keep in mind that taxpayer funded tuition will not make higher education free. They will still be books, fees and living expenses to be paid for. Prospective students need to be smart about when they start college. Every student isn't ready for full time college and living away from home when they are 18. I saw way too many students trying to major in beer drinking and casual sex when I was in college. If a kid has parents who will pay for them to skate through school with Cs and D's, or if they want to take out student loans to do it (which is really stupid) in will be on their dime, not the taxpayer's

[MichMan]

129. Best decision I ever made

I must have been the exception to many posting here

While I had some college after HS, I quit due to lack of funds etc . I was in my early 20's and working jobs that paid little more than minimum wage. (big motivator btw) This was the late 80's, so school was not as expensive as it is now, but considering my income, it was still very daunting, as I could barely afford to put gas into my 12 year old car and pay 1/2 of the rent for my small apartment with a room mate.

Borrowed to go to an affordable private local 4 year college at night while working and was able to complete my Engineering degree. I ended up borrowing 10K (20K with inflation) making my payments $100/mo.for 10 years. Nearly tripled my income, so well worthwhile immediately.

I had poor/zero credit, so without lenders willing to take a risk and lend me the $$$, it would never have been possible. If as many state here, the lenders shouldn't lend money to those who have higher risk, I probably wouldn't have gotten the opportunity I did.

Should all college be "free" Sounds good, but not sure how it would be implemented. Would the government pay the tuition costs directly and how would those costs be controlled? If the affordable Community College and the prestigious State University were both free to the student, why would someone care what the cost was? Why not go to the more expensive one with the nicest campus and most amenities?. Tuition rates vary from school to school; I assume the taxpayers wouldn't just pay whatever they decided to charge. Also, there are a lot of people that have no business being in college; would they now go because it was free and better than getting a job or learning a trade