Detroit Pastor Shoots Man Wielding Brick, Threatening Congregation

[Purveyor]

Source: WDIV Detroit

DETROIT -

A pastor shot and killed a man armed with a brick after he threatened parishioners at the City of God Church on Detroit’s west side, according to police.

[Church of God] The shooting occurred inside the church on Grand River Avenue around 1:45 p.m.

The 25-year-old man stormed into the church during a service wielding a brick.

The 36-year-old pastor pulled out a gun and shot the man multiple times. Investigators said four or five shots were fired.

The man was taken to the Botsford Hospital and was pronounced dead.

Read more: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/detroit-pastor-shoots-man-wielding-brick-threatening-congregation/35912534

[Thespian2]

1. So, Rev. pastor got to be

judge, jury, executioner...and a god-less murderer...nice day for you Rev...

[Travis_0004]

2. Yeah

He should have allowed the guy with the brick to be judge jury and executioner. That would be much better.

[GGJohn]

6. So in your world,

the pastor should have let the assailant beat him with the brick?
The pastor shouldn't have defended himself against a deadly threat?

[LanternWaste]

50. I can only imagine the convenience of allowing oneself merely two possibilities.

I can only imagine the convenience of allowing oneself merely two possibilities, as no mental discipline or rational thought is necessary to maintain such a dogmatic pretense.

Though no doubt, it will be righteously rationalized as something other than mere myopia...

[GGJohn]

73. Know what else?

It will also more than likely be ruled a justified homicide.

[rockfordfile]

69. Chill nra supporter

It says "parishioners" why didn't they just take the guy down as a group? oh that's right it's a gun culture.

[GGJohn]

70. Oooooh, the name calling.

Were you there?
No, you weren't, so you have no fucking clue as to what went on.
How do you know the parishioners had time to react?

[Yo_Mama]

89. They might have been mostly elderly/female

It's asking a lot of such persons to get into a confrontation with a 25 year old who apparently was more than a bit off his head.

[mpcamb]

20. Washington Post Article yesterday about evangelicals, guns, abortion and the NRA...

It's about a reversal by a minister, 'sanctity of life issues" and financial consequences for opposing gun control.
Wondered how long it would take for a counter-piece to appear.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/10/05/how-one-evangelical-activist-changed-his-mind-on-gun-violence/

[JackInGreen]

26. As much as I'm for gun control

This doesn't seem to earn the outrage you're assigning to it. Id prefer they'd all have smothered him as one with hugs, but given circumstance I think this murder is a-ok.

[GGJohn]

31. This isn't a murder, it's a homicide,

there is a difference, murder is illegal, while homicide is as yet undetermined if it's a legal or illegal homicide.

[JackInGreen]

32. Was using it to mirror the absurdity.

Nothin more.

[Lizzie Poppet]

81. "murderer"

Murder has a rather precise definition: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

It's highly unlikely this case fits that definition, assuming it's ruled to be self-defense.

[YOHABLO]

3. What happen to ''Thou shall not kill" ? Religion sucks!

[C Moon]

5. +1

With you on that one.

[GGJohn]

7. what happened to the right to defend yourself

against an assailant with a deadly weapon?

[romanic]

8. I would just give up.

Apparently the right to defend oneself is highly vilified by those who want to play political games on here.

[GGJohn]

9. Apparently so. eom.

[pocoloco]

23. Self defense is a Human Right!

No law or religion denies that!

[GGJohn]

24. To listen to some on this board,

you wouldn't think so.

[wordpix]

47. a brick is a "deadly weapon"? Really?

I would have told the guy to put the brick down and then asked congregants to grab the guy. It's not like he'd shoot

[GGJohn]

71. You're seriously asking if a brick is a deadly weapon?

Yes, a brick is a deadly weapon, it can kill with one blow to the head.

I would have told the guy to put the brick down and then asked congregants to grab the guy.

Suppose he didn't and kept coming at you? Are you just going to let him possibly beat you to death?
Well, that's your choice, most people will defend themselves against an assailant wielding a deadly weapon.

[wordpix]

92. "and asked congregants to grab the guy" - but you didn't add that part, right?

of course I would defend myself, but shooting someone over a brick is the last thing I'd do. If Geo. W could duck a shoe, I can duck a brick. And as pastor, I think congregants would respond to my, "Grab him and take him down."

[Warpy]

77. Not only that, but this part is interesting

However, those who knew Smith say he was an all-round great guy -- a leader on and off the field for the Michigan Lightning football team. Friends say Smith was crushed after announcing on Facebook that his wife was pregnant, only to learn the pastor of his church was the father.

There was an ongoing problem there. It could have and should have been resolved without violence. Bottom line is that the pastor executed the guy for having a brick in his hand and a grievance that needed to be addressed. This was not self defense.

[branford]

79. You don't get to resolve a grievance by attacking someone with a brick.

It doesn't matter if the parties knew one another, had repeated problems, or if the pastor did indeed impregnate the assailant's wife.

You are correct that in a perfect world, the parties would have resolved their differences in a non-violent fashion. However, we do not live in such a world, and it has nothing to do with firearms.

Therefore, when someone attacks another, and a reasonable personal could believe they risk death or serious injury (and a brick would easily qualify), defending oneself with using lethal means, firearms or otherwise, is justified in almost every jurisdiction (in a minority of "duty to retreat" jurisdictions, the victim may have been required to have an easy, no risk escape before using lethal force, although that appears inapplicable in this location and circumstance, and juries rarely care).

[GGJohn]

80. If Smith was coming at the pastor with the intent to injure or kill the pastor,

it most certainly is self defense, it doesn't matter if, and that hasn't been proven yet, the pastor did get Smith's wife pregnant.

You are correct that this should have been resolved without violence, but, at this point, Mr. Smith didn't seem to want to resolve this peacefully, instead, he chose to attempt to assault the pastor with a deadly weapon, he chose poorly.

[wordpix]

93. again, I don't think a brick is a deadly weapon. Yes it can hurt someone but with a

whole congregation in church against one guy with a brick, Smith could have easily been taken down.

PS. And he had a right to be mighty pissed at the pastor, considering the pregnant wife/child not his

[Xyzse]

54. That as well as "Turn the Other Cheek"

[Igel]

59. More like "thou shalt not commit murder."

This can be reduced to an absurdity.

Imagine this: 20 guys break into your house and proceed to rape your wife and daughter and 3-year-old son while holding you so you have to watch and listen. All this time, you're holding a gun that holds 21 bullets and you're an ace shot at the practice range. At the end, they kill your wife and kids. But you did nothing to protect them.

This isn't any form of OT theology I've ever seen. Hence the "thou shalt do no murder" translation, which some argue is more accurate.

I've seen this attitude among Xians, but most of the non-violence texts are when you're persecuted for your faith or when it's a brother who's wronged you. This strikes me as reasonable--hard, unrealistic, but reasonable, since Xians (at least some) believe that they're rewarded for persecution.

Don't ask me for a solution if you're the believer and your wife/kids are being punished for your belief. That is suddenly unreasonable to me.

But just random violence? Nah. I'd probably have shot the guy with the brick--possibly just to wound him, if I had that level of control over my aim. Otherwise, shoot to hit ... whatever. (Given my aim, I'd just try to hit him with the unloaded gun.)

[Yo_Mama]

90. After what happened in Charleston, I am not surrpised the pastor was armed.

Nor am I surprised that he wasn't able to do some Hollywood thing like just shoot the guy in the legs.

I imagine he was terrified and the parishioners were too.

Self-defense is generally allowed in most Christian denominations. Defending your flock is not murder.

[C Moon]

4. Looks having a gun worked this time. I'd like to hear the whole story, though.

Shooting him several times seems extreme. But, maybe he just kept coming.

[christx30]

12. Shoot to stop the threat.

Once you make the decision that the only way you are going to survive the incident is ny opening fire on some, you keep pulling the trigger until the threat no longer exists.
The guy with the brick decided that someone was going to die. The pastor made sure it wasn't him or anyone else in his congregation.

[C Moon]

13. How do you know the guy with the brick was going to kill?

That's why I said I'd like to hear more on this story.
I've never shot a gun, but I'm sure in that situation, if I had one, I would have shot the guy.
But I'm asking why he shot him multiple times. That's all. It's just a question. I'm not attacking on your precious hobby.

[pasto76]

35. maybe why he shot multiple times

had the pastor previously been 'innoculated to fear' by some past event - and even if he hadnt - events can happen in matrix time. His brain my have processed that his first shot, or shots, had not stopped or hit the subject, counted how many shots he had left, and thought about 5 other things in only one second. I offer this from experience. I was given this superpower when I was in Iraq. More than a decade later, I was assaulted at work by a coworker. I had plenty of time to recall combatives training, and decide if I was going to have to kill him, seriously injury him or lock him up in a submission. I remember being very relaxed. The video showed that all happened, literally, in less than one second.

Most states have statutes allowing use of lethal force to stop or prevent a felony. most 2A people I talk to dont know that, which is why, I think, that clown was firing at a shoplifter in a home depot parking lot 2 weeks ago.

[ileus]

55. Probably a 380 or 9mm.....way underpowered for personal defense.

And this from a person who either carries one of 3 9mm's or a 380 for my CC sidearm.

[angrychair]

15. License to kill

As a gun owner, you have been given carte blanche to weld a deadly weapon anywhere you want and I can say nothing to oppose it, as well as make the decision to kill anyone who makes you "feel" in danger. Even if your wrong (darn, silly mistake), typically it ends as negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter and you spend a couple of months to a couple of years in jail and then back to a life of you "exercising" your freedoms. Your "mistake", the person you killed, is still very dead. They don't get their "freedom" to live again after a couple of years.

I distrust the idea and the person that has been given the ability to kill me in a home depot parking lot because they think they can.

[GGJohn]

25. So much garbage.

You really ought to get a clue of what you're talking about and lose the hatred of gun owners.

[pasto76]

34. wrong answer bro, that is actually spot on

and the evidence is everywhere. People are dead all over this country because a gun owner decided to have a tantrum, had their feelings hurt or think the commision of ANY crime is a death sentence. Reflect on that

[GGJohn]

72. So in your world,

this pastor wasn't justified in defending himself against an assailant wielding a deadly weapon/

And, no, his post was not spot on, it was full of emotional bullshit.
I don't need to reflect on anything, I'm very comfortable in my beliefs and morals.

[pasto76]

33. no not really

you fire to STOP the attack. Not kill someone. Assault isnt a death sentence. Attempted murder (pre-crimes division, of course) is not a death sentence.

I do wonder how far away from the subject was the pastor. If it was more than 25 feet, well, he can fire his weapon better than 99% of the second amendment-ers (by their own admissions, they require a 'bad guy' to be within 25 feet)

[christx30]

66. That's pretty much my point.

You shoot to stop the threat. If you can fire once, hit the guy in the hip, he drops to the ground, you're done. Have him arrested and treated, and taken to jail.
If the guy is on some kind of drug like PCP and he doesn't go down, but keeps coming at you, you fire again, this time in center mass, and he goes down. If he survives, you try to save his life so he can stand trial for attempted assault with a deadly weapon. If he doesn't, you fire until he gives up, or until he is unable to threaten you or anyone else in the room. If you can defend yourself without killing anyone, more power to you. But I don't have a problem if the aggressor loses his life.

Why does everyone think that self defense is summary execution? They are not one and the same. The pastor was not 'being judge, jury, and executioner'. His life was being threatened. He removed the threat. The guy with the brick shouldn't have been there.

[AllTooEasy]

10. I have no problem with this shooting, so far

Maybe, maybe the shooter could have wrestled the assailant to the ground. How close was the pastor to the assailant? What was the physical/age comparison between the two? How close was the assailant to seriously injuring or killing another person?

You do what you can, as quickly as you can, to defend yourself and others.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

11. Is this a montey python skit?

[JackInGreen]

27. No vic! Not the brick!

THE BISHOP

[Javaman]

51. good thing it wasn't a pointed stick. nt

[msongs]

14. gee maybe the "pastor" could become a police person nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

16. Pastor might be in trouble

According to local TV, there may be some kind of "permit" issue. If he was carrying illegally, it could be a problem.

[shadowrider]

56. Actually

If the church was on privately owned land, there shouldn't be a problem since most states (I'm not sure about Michigan, or specifically, Detroit) allow open or conceal carry on private property.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

65. In MI, carrying in church is allowed if approved by church official.

I'd bet the pastor approves of himself carrying.

This was just a "mention" by the talking head on Channel 4 (msnbc) news, so may not amount to anything. Or, there may be something prohibiting the pastor from possessing a firearm. The story seems to have quietly faded, I didn't see anything in the local papers about a "permit issue".

So probably nothing, the pastor is probably ok.

[htuttle]

18. "Pastor Packing at the Pulpit"

[Hoppy]

19. ...somethin' somethin' good guy with a brick.. somthin' somethin' somethin' else bad guy with a gun.

I don't exactly recall but it went somethin' like that.

[stonecutter357]

21. I hate gun porn.

[hunter]

22. What Would Jesus Do?

[JackInGreen]

53. Nailed it

[christx30]

64. Let his skull get bashed open by a pyscho with a brick? n/t

[maxsolomon]

85. Jump out of the way of the brick? Run away from the brick?

Pick up a heavy bible & use it to fend off the brick? Have his parishioners all rush the brick-wielder, Carson-style?

Jesus had OPTIONS.

[christx30]

86. I wouldn't want to risk my life

or the life of the congregation swarming. Someone innocent could be killed or seriously injured.
Point the weapon at him. Tell him to put down the brick. If he does, great. If he comes at you, open fire until he stops his attack.

[maxsolomon]

87. Good lord

you think 1 guy with a brick is going to kill the entire congregation? He's not Chuck Norris.

Anyway, I wasn't serious because I was suggesting using a BEN CARSON method.

[PatSeg]

28. What the hell!

We are living in a bizarre dystopian world! I feel like life has become a B movie.

[MissKat]

29. Let's not fire too quickly

There's more to this story.

The brick-wielding man was known to the pastor.
The pastor had been trying to help him.
BW man had made threats.

So before I put a comment like, "What would Jesus conceal?" I want to know more.
But even when I find out more...

There is something very disturbing about a shootout in a church.

[LiberalArkie]

30. Evidently the pastor is not a believer in Matthew 5:39

Love Your Enemies
38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.…

[Throd]

37. I'm not well versed on the bible. Is there a passage where you allow other people to kill you?

[LannyDeVaney]

39. Well, it's pretty much the central theme of the entire New Testament ...

so you are right, you are not very well versed in the Bible.

[Throd]

40. Could you please cite some passages?

[Gore1FL]

41. Just read about how God thought the way he could forgive people was to kill someone else.

You'll find it at the end of each Gospel.

[LiberalArkie]

42. I guess like another person said, it is pretty much all of the new testament.

Pretty much the our concept of giving up your life for a greater good comes from the new testament.

I think that the stoning of Stephen in the book of Acts is the first account. But there are many others and I am not anywhere close to being any kind of a teacher.

[Throd]

43. I don't see how allowing your head to be crushed by a brick goes toward the "greater good".

I understand the concepts of self-sacrifice and not being drawn in to conflicts, but protecting yourself from random, violent lunatics is just basic animal instinct.

[Lizzie Poppet]

82. Allowing a violent, homicidal criminal to succeed is AGAINST the greater good.

Thus the tremendous ethical issue with "strong" pacifism...

[appal_jack]

46. More of a Luke 22:36 guy I suppose

"he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one"

While I'm no biblical literalist, and don't even identify as Christian other than in my raising and cultural background, what the pastor did was reasonable in my view from the facts thus far presented.

-app

[Eugene]

36. Police Say Detroit Pastor Released After Fatal Shooting

Source: Associated Press

Police Say Detroit Pastor Released After Fatal Shooting

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS DETROIT — Oct 19, 2015, 10:40 AM ET

Detroit police say they have released a pastor of a storefront church who shot and killed a man who tried to attack him during a service.

Officer Keisha Beasley-Dorsey said Monday that the 36-year-old pastor, whom authorities aren't identifying, was released Sunday after the shooting at the small church on the city's northwest side. Beasley-Dorsey says no charging decision has been made and declined to discuss case details while the investigation continues.

[font size=1]-snip-[/font]

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-detroit-pastor-released-fatal-shooting-34573135

[LannyDeVaney]

38. If only Jesus has pulled an AK out of his robe ...

while on the cross, we wouldn't have to worry about finding year-old Easter eggs buried in our yard.

But we'd have missed out on all that ham.

Happy f'in Holidays

[They_Live]

44. I would have just shot the brick.

why not?

[Elmergantry]

45. dont bring a brick

To a gun fight

[MrScorpio]

48. Welcome to Detroit.

[niyad]

49. pastor and dead man had a history:

. . . .

Smith had ranted on Facebook that his pastor had gotten his wife pregnant, weeks before police say he showed up with the brick Sunday during church service and attacked the minister.

Two Detroit police sources said detectives were investigating a possible love triangle between Smith, his wife and their pastor.

Dolunt said police were called to the church in September. On Sept. 16, Smith wrote that he planned to attend the church.

. . .

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2015/10/18/pastor-kills-brick-wielding-man-during-church-service/74190782/

[ileus]

52. Don't mess with a pastors flock.

[valerief]

57. Another asshole "good guy with a gun" killing people he doesn't have to. nt

[sarisataka]

60. When is it acceptable

to use lethal force in self defense?

After receiving a minor injury?
After receiving a major injury?
After being killed?
Never?

[valerief]

83. The guy was wielding a brick.

Oh, and welcome to my Forever Ignored club.

[sarisataka]

84. Yes he had a brick

That does not answer my question.

Are there meetings of the F.I. club?

[GGJohn]

75. Ahhh, so you were there and witnessed the whole thing?

It's amazing how far some will go to callously dismiss a self defense shooting because of their hatred for firearms.

[Runningdawg]

58. So it's finally come to this

a preacher murdering directly from the pulpit. I said in my youth this would happen and now it has. I also said around the same time that churches would soon become so violent it would make the crusades look like a BD party. Almost there.....

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

63. Or a preacher protecting himself, or his flock.

The investigation continues ...

[GGJohn]

76. It isn't murder if the pastor was defending himself or his parishioners,

it would be justified homicide.
There's a big difference between murder and homicide.

[treestar]

61. this is not good unless the guy was clearly going to

strike someone with it in the next second.

[maxsolomon]

62. In all likelyhood, he was not in immediate danger of death. yet he emptied his gun into the dude.

even if it is legal, it may not have been necessary. yes, a brick CAN be a deadly weapon. but we don't know how far he was from the pastor when he fired. 2'? 20'? makes a difference: bashing someone in the head with it, or chucking it at them from a distance.

regardless, I look forward to the stories of the 1,000 other DGUs that happened on this day. post every one you find!

[bluesplayer1]

67. Packing Pastor

I long forgot the biblical quote. There is one about rescuing (it was livestock from harm ) one of the flock (often referring to parishioners) on the Sabbath. I believe it is his responsibility to protect his "flock" from harm.

[rockfordfile]

68. It's a gun culture

It's a gun culture.

[GGJohn]

78. No, at this point,

it's a self defense shooting, which would make it a justified homicide.

[daleo]

74. Jesus wept

[Township75]

88. So now we can't go around threatening people while carrying bricks due to gun nuts

If someone carrying a brick or other hard object is threatening you or anyone you care about and there is someone nearby with a gun, do the right thing and tackle the person with the gun so s/he doesn't hurt or kill anyone !

[branford]

91. There's a big difference between just "carrying a brick" and "armed with a brick."

That's why for legal and lethal self-defense to be justified, it requires a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury. Based on the facts we know of this story it's clearly the latter, not the former. You cannot just shoot your average construction contractor if you believe he looked at you oddly.

Moreover, you are free to tackle an assailant, regardless of whether he (or she) is armed and the type of weapon, but it's arrogant and impractical to suggest that others do so and and unnecessarily risk melee combat, to say nothing of the millions of people who are small, weak, old, infirm, etc., who are clearly incapable of successfully disabling most attackers (or more than one attacker) in hand-to-hand combat.

Lastly, forgive me if I don't have much pity for people who believe they have a right to threaten people with bricks, Maybe your efforts would be more productively directed your toward such people instead of gun control...