Scotland to hold independence poll in 2014
Scotland plans to hold an independence referendum in the autumn of 2014, First Minister Alex Salmond has said.
He said this date would allow the Scottish people to make a "considered" decision on Scotland's future within the United Kingdom.
The news came as the UK government said a referendum would be unconstitutional without its authority.
It has said it wanted to work with the SNP-led administration amid a row over the timing and conditions for a poll.
Story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16478121
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts).
The Scotland act does not devolve constitutional matter to Holyrood and as such it is for Westminster to decide if and when.
The SNP are being incredibly dishonest over this proposal. They know that they won't win right now and they want to tie the referndendum in with the anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn in an orgy of anti-English jingoism.
Plus the SNP can always indulge in some anti-Tory dogwhistle politics due to the mess the Tories made of Scottish issues when they were last in power.
Fool Count
(1,230 posts)on a question which is only the basic tenet of their whole program. How dare they.
They should pick the worst time and lose - that would be "honest". Though I take no
position on the principal issue here, Cameron has to face reality - there is no practical
way to force Scottish government to hold the referendum sooner or to hold it without
their cooperation. They will do it on their own terms regardless and any awkward attempts
to undermine the legitimacy of the process via some half-baked "clarity law", like was
done in Canada, will only play into the separatists' hands. Cameron better focus on
getting the economy back on track and winning that referendum in 2014. It's not like
he won't have his PR machine backed up by a set of solid arguments in favor of unity
and receptive to those arguments Scottish public then.
T_i_B
(14,737 posts)Then they should stop acting like a bunch of chickenshits and be prepared for a referendum at any time or place.
And again, Constitutional issues have NOT been devolved to the Scottish Parlaiment, so whether you like it or not it is for Westminster to decide. If the Scots hold a referendum without the consent of Westminster it will not be legally binding. Only a referendum sanctioned by the Houses of Parliament in London will.
May I suggest reading the Scotland Act 1998 before mouthing off in future.
Fool Count
(1,230 posts)government wants and that's the end of it. Cameron better get on with the program,
because dumb-ass legalistic obstructionism is the surest way to the loss after which
no one will give a toss what some irrelevant Westminster act says.
T_i_B
(14,737 posts)...if the deep South decided to tear up the US constitution for thier own convenience, because that is what Alex Salmond is essentially trying to do here.
Fool Count
(1,230 posts)We went through much the same thing with the Quebec referendum. That's how I know
that it is utterly futile for the unionists to appeal to constitutional legality, adopt
"clarity laws" or use the central government's authority in any way to sabotage the
conduct of referendum. It only hardens the separatists and might annoy just enough
moderate sovereignists to sway the whole thing. Ultimately, it is the decision for the
people of Scotland, just as it was for the people of Quebec. The only way to keep them
in is to show that the central government respects their sovereign will and is not just
obsessed with its own survival. Then the majority may not mind continuing to accept
such authority as not entirely antagonistic to their national aspirations. There is a very
simple dialectics going on here really - the less badly you want to keep them in, the
less badly they want to leave. And vice versa. Just a friendly advice. You are not
the first in such circumstance. Canadian unity faced much direr odds, still it survived.
Charlemagne
(576 posts)MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)In todays America at least; they would call you a communist either way, all while clutching a bible no less.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Being of Irish descent, I never fully understood why the Scots didn't kick out the Brits
the way the Irish did.
I believe in self-determination for all.
Maine-ah
(9,902 posts)just were never successful at it.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)and I don't understand how people who supposedly believe in "self-determination"
have a problem with that.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)I ask, what the fuck?
I think the people of California should kick the Americans out.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)the people of California ARE Americans, demographically and historically indistinguishable from
the rest of Americans -- You can't say that about Scotland vs. England
For reasons explained, Scotland vs. the UK is completely unlike
"California vs. the US". or "Northern USA vs. Southern USA".
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)The demographics of California have always been far more culturally diverse than Scotland has been compared to England in the last 200 years. Lately, it has been getting more so, not less.
Scotland is for Scotland to decide, and let them have at it. But I was sitting at a pub in Reath one evening with a Scot and an English guy who were "sucking the piss" (IIRC) out of each other over their supposed "differences". They jokingly asked me to "weigh in" and I told them that as far as I was concerned the cover on their passorts were the same color. Furthermore I asked them for 3 differences that an external observer could see between the two. Pints and interest may have been their primary obstacle, but they had a hard time coming up with one, much less 3.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)are not "culturally diverse" relative to the rest of the US, and that's what we're talking about,
not it's cultural diversity relative to Scotland.
In any case, I agree that "Scotland is for Scotland" to decide.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)Then come back and make that claim. You'll have a hard time in chunks of LA even using english to communicate. When I throw in Miami and Billings, Montana, it will only get worse.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)As for LA, and use of English, that's mainly an issue of immigration, most of it illegal...Seems they
are having similar problems in the UK and other parts of western Europe.
Point: There are geographic and cultural differences in the US, but
historically, we have always been one nation, with no particular demographic
differences. Apart from a couple of states in the Southwest,
which saw wars with the Spanish colonizers, every state entered
into the union freely...That's apparently not the case of
England and Scotland, but btw, I'd be happy to let certain parts
of the US (like the South) go, if we could agree to certain things,
like a common defense.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)Not sure how one describes "always" in the US considering the westward expansion. We've only been 50 states since post WWII. The US was in a constant state of expansion since its founding. And virtually all of that was at the point of a gun in one way or another. The Indian Wars. The Spanish American War. The Mexican American War. The Texas Rebellion. Not to mention innumerable skirmishes including the hunt for Poncho Via among others. Heck, when Lewis and Clark go exploring, they meet the Indians out west and the first thing they want is guns, which he wouldn't arrange for them. He did ask for their "loyalty" to the President.
Westward expansion was enabled greatly by the proliferation of "forts" in the west maitained by the army (a legacy they live with to this day). Albeit many of them appeared to be more locations of commerce than defense (or offense for that matter). By the time the states are being admitted into the union "freely" they had already been "conquered" by the US federal government, and the only folks basically allowed to "vote" were white men of european descent.
And the quite diverse population of California is such that there is no "majority". And the VAST majority of them aren't "illegals", especially the asians. And you'll find the same language issues in China town that you'll find in areas of LA.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)So if you want to start talking about the indigenous peoples of the US,
you'll have to start talking about Australia and the Aboriginals and the fine way they were treated
by emmigrants from the UK.
If you'd like to go further back, we'll have to start speaking of Angles, Saxons and Jutes,
and of course we can't leave out the celts of Wales, Ireland, and of course, Scotland.
"We've only been 50 states since post WWII"
Yes, before that we were a mere 48.
I think the larger point is that California, unlike Scotland, isn't interested in seceeding.
As for China Town, you might be interested in my personal story here: As a non-asian who
once worked in a Chinese restaurant for a couple, born and raised in "Chinatown", I can tell you that they
both spoke English well, thank you, as did their American-born kids.
As a third generation American whose grandparents spoke no English when they arrived,
but learned shortly after, I think I can attest to the fact that it's a rare American
who goes his or her whole life here without learning English.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)The myth of the current anti-immigrant crowd is "these people never learn english". Quite the opposite, they follow the same progression as virtually every other immigrant group. The first generation, usually already well into adulthood, maintains weak, if any, english skills. The next generation, even if they weren't born here, usually learns both languages, and are truly bilingual. The subsequent generations slowly lose the original language. What is slightly different right now is that there has been a fairly consistent, long term immigration of latin based languages into the US, covering several generations. The result is that we "hear" an almost constant community of nonenglish speakers. And there is some (not as much as claimed) retention among the 3rd generation of the original language (probably closer to "spanglish" actually).
The original point however had to do with the similarities, culturally and economically speaking, between the California situation, and Scotland. In both cases there isn't much to compare. California is much more significantly "different" from the entire country east of the Mississippi (save significant chunks of Florida) than Scotland is from England. (Quite honestly, N.I. is "more different" than Scotland is). Economically, California is a "legitimate" economy in its own right, and would be a significant loss to the US, and a major player on the world stage (probably qualifying for G20 status). Scotland, not so much.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)"The original point however had to do with the similarities, culturally and economically speaking, between the California situation, and Scotland. In both cases there isn't much to compare. California is much more significantly "different" from the entire country east of the Mississippi (save significant chunks of Florida) than Scotland is from England. (Quite honestly, N.I. is "more different" than Scotland is). Economically, California is a "legitimate" economy in its own right, and would be a significant loss to the US, and a major player on the world stage (probably qualifying for G20 status). Scotland, not so much".
The original point was the "difference" between California and the rest of America versus the difference between Scotland and England.
California -- actually the Pacific Northwest, overall, is "different" than much of the rest of the country, but then the "heartland" states of Nebraska, Iowa, and the Dakotas are also "different" in their own rights, so it's hard to point to "California" as being
uniquely "different".
More importantly, the Scots, or at least a significant number of them, seem to disagree on this "we're all one" notion,
and I'd say it's their opinion, more than yours or mine at least, which is at issue here.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)I said originally that this was for the UK/Scotland to decide. I was merely commenting upon the hypothetical comparison to California and the relative diversity and variation in culture.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)i'm sure it's right and i've heard it before.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)I could probably find one somewhere if I looked long enough. Some of this came out about 10 years or so ago when they were having trouble finding people in Miami who were bilingual in spanish. Seems odd right? Problem was, the 3rd generation kids spoke something, but it wasn't really any specific spanish language. "Spanglish" would be the best discription. That's fine if you're going to be working with a specific population of immigrants. But if you are an international firm looking for people to communicate with native speakers in another coutnry, you actually need to be able to read, write, and speak the language "correctly".
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Hence the lack of any substantial cultural difference between the Northern states and the Southern states in 1861?
(Might I suggest 'Up From Slavery' by BT Washington, and 'Confederates in the Attic' by Tony Horwitz if you do indeed believe that to be the case?)
whathehell
(29,067 posts)The major ones concern the differences between a primarily agrarian versus a more Industrial society
and of course, the existence and legality of slavery.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)and both our other recent Prime Ministers, Blair and Cameron, have Scottish names so are of partly Scottish descent. (As I am.)
The Scots have a right to independence if a majority wants it -I doubt that they will, to be honest; but that doesn't make England and Scotland more diverse than say California and Mississippi.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)I simply said that that I believe in self-determination.
Having said that, England vs. Scotland and California vs. Mississippi
is a poor analogy for historic, political and cultural reasons.
For a better, more knowledgeable discussion on Scottish independence,
you might want to talk to the only self-defined Scotsman on this thread, Mr. McGuire.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)exchange 1898 for 1745.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)First, 1745 was the date of the final section of a civil war - the (Catholic) House of Stuart wanting to get back the throne they'd been chucked off, in favour of the (Protestant) House of Hanover (note that the line of succession of the House of Hanover came from James VI of Scotland, who had become James I of England too). 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' wanted to rule all of Britain (and Ireland too), not just Scotland. He had strong support in the Scottish Highlands, but not all over Scotland - it's a cliche to note that, in the final battle at Culloden, there were more Scots on the Hanoverian side than the Jacobite.
The monarchies of England and Scotland were united, in James VI/I, in 1603. The countries were united in 1707 (still under the House of Stuart - the Protestant branch of it, which dies out shortly after). As I've said below, this did involve bribery of Scottish politicians; it was basically a financial transaction - the Scottish upper classes were paid off, and it meant England never had to worry about a land border again.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Britain is England, Scotland, and Wales. England and Scotland were united in a partnership - one didn't take over the other, so there isn't anyone to kick out. Wales and Ireland, on the other hand, were conquered.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)Hence the existence of Scottish Nationalism and the desire on the part of many to secede.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AvXoMzkE_gk3ZfTQjdFz8A6mN3wV?p=sources+of+scottish+nationalism&fr=att-portal-s&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)if that referendum fails another will pass sooner or later. scottish independence will happen.
Agent William
(651 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Someone asked about them kicking out "the brits". There wouldn't be any "brits" if England and Scotland weren't united.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)Even if you apportion North Sea oil revenue geographically rather than per capita (IOW Scotland gets almost all of it, regardless of origin of capital invested) Scottish tax revenue compared to expenditure in Scotland is a net loss - it costs the UK about $40MM a year to have Scotland be a part of it.
Full disclosure - England born, Scotland educated. No problem with either, but this a "the South should secede" situation by US analog - when the area gets far more $$ from the nation as a whole than they send to it.
well stated
Glorfindel
(9,729 posts)I'm a native Georgian living and working in Mississippi, and despite the wails and protestations of many (if not most) Mississippians, the state wouldn't last 20 minutes without the support of the US Federal Government. The same is true for most of the rest of the south. I'll never be able to figure out why (for example) New Yorkers are willing to pay tolls for bridges, tunnels, highways, etc., while subsidizing the very same services for free in the south. I have both English and Scots ancestry, so I wish them all very well indeed and hope they can come to an amicable agreement, whatever form it takes.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)to the situation here.
If I'm not mistaken, Scotland was an independent country with it's own culture BEFORE England colonized them.
The American South, like the rest of the country after the American Revolution, was always part of America. It was never "independent"
and it is not comprised of people of different ethnic ancestry and culture (whatever they might tell you about the the latter)
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)The Scottish king succeeded to the English throne in 1603, thus uniting the crowns; in 1707, after a Scottish financial disaster caused by failing to colonise Panama, England suggested united the Parliaments and the countries unite - which, with some bribery of the Scottish politicians, they agreed to. The ethnic difference of Scotland from England is cloudy; the lowlands, where the majority of Scots live, were speaking a branch of English long before any attempt by England to make them part of one country, and before what is now Scotland was unified. Scotland had significant Anglo-Saxon heritage a thousand years ago.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)and the stories of William Wallace, etc., tell me that, overall, the Scots weren't exactly happy with the unification.
I wonder if the "highlanders, lowlanders" thing is in any way like the "Plantation of Ulster" in Irish history.
After the War of Independence, the Brits held onto the the north, and said that NI wanted to remain with the UK, but England
gerrymandered the traditional Irish province of Ulster to ensure that it would have a protestant majority, largely descended from those
"plantation" folk, who would agree to the union.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)There were significant numbers of incomers to what is now Scotland from about 500AD onwards from Ireland (the Scots), from what is now the Danish-German border (Anglo-Saxons), and, a little later, the Vikings from Denmark and Norway. The Britons and Picts who were already there got rather swamped. By about 1000, a kingdom approaching the modern borders of Scotland was emerging, with the Scots and Anglo-Saxons having had the most influence - the Scots in the highlands, the Anglo-Saxons in the lowlands. England itself only emerged after 900AD from individual earlier kingdoms, and the Scottish kingdom was strong enough to stop any further attempts at unification (unlike, say, Cornwall).
The powerful lowland nobles had extensive lands and relations in England (eg the family of Robert the Bruce, winner of Bannockburn). But there has never been any period of a policy of moving people from England to Scotland to change the demographics.
The people of Scotland may or may not have been happy about the Union - but it wasn't a democracy (just as England wasn't). Think of it as bribing the board of one company to agree to a takeover by another.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)but if they now want to separate, what's the problem?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)But whether the majority of Scots do want full independence is highly questionable - so there's a lot of politicking about exactly what question will be asked (simple 'yes' or 'no', or a 3rd option of 'Devo Max' - maximum devolution, but not complete independence - in the referendum too), when it will be asked (the SNP favours a later date, possibly because there isn't yet a majority in favour of independence), and who will be asked (the SNP has proposed that 16 and 17 year olds should get to vote too).
Most recent poll:
The poll, released as the government set out its position on the terms of any referendum on independence, also showed similar majorities in both England and Wales in favour of Scotland staying in the UK.
According to the survey, voters north of the border are slightly more enthusiastic about preserving the Union than people in England or Wales.
Some 48 per cent of those questioned in England backed the Union, against 27 per cent who supported independence for Scotland. In Wales, 41 per cent wanted Scotland to stay in the UK, while 29 per cet said it should become independent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/10/scottish-independence-poll-scots-want-to-stay-in-britain_n_1196464.html
Poll details: http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2901/British-Future-State-of-the-Nation-Poll.aspx
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2012, 12:59 PM - Edit history (2)
About three years ago, I was in Europe and part of a group which
contained two Englishmen talking about English-Scots relations.
I don't have the time to go into all the details now,
but from what I heard, (and not only from these two)
there does seem to be some bad blood between the two
One Englishman, an older man who worked
for the European Union complained to the other: "You know,
I like Scotland, I have cousins in Scotland, but every time I
go over there, I get nothing but abuse"!
They then went on to discuss the question of Scots Independence
concluded that if they were, in their words "acting like children"
they should be treated like children"....They did seem quite patronizing,
concluding also, that "They don't want to work",
a traditional, seemingly universal accusation one hears
all over the world from people putting down others, whom they don't like
for various reasons, lol.
It was all quite interesting.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)There's been so much intermarriage between the Scots and the Brits that the animosity that existed in William Wallace's time (as described by Mel Gibson) no longer exists.
If a person is a Harland, for example, are they Irish? Scot-Irish? Scottish? English? Who can honestly tell?
whathehell
(29,067 posts)in Scotland, some titled Englishman was jeered out of the theatre.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)My understanding is that the Scottish nobles were "bought off", so to speak,
with land in England given to them.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)Colonization is not true either - just a change in where the taxes went and where the spending came from. Movement between Scotland and Ebgland has been free for many centuries.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)they now want to consider separation, so what's the problem?
whathehell
(29,067 posts)and it seems the Scots, at least those who support the SNP, think the situation to be
more than a question of "just a change in where the taxes went and where the spending came from".
So what's the problem?
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)I play online games and we talk to each other with headsets online. One of our Aussie guild members was asking about work issues here in the states and of course one of the Red Staters had to puff out his chest and say "we don't put up with that union bullshit in our state". I almost broke my teeth from grinding them so hard as not to pounce on that bullshit.
The "right to work" states can get away with their crap because they rob us blue staters blind all the while wagging their fingers at us. We subsidize their cheap labor and they throw it in our faces.
Really it's the finger wagging that makes me want to grab their throats and throttle them.
Fokker Trip
(249 posts)I was completely shocked to hear the near constant use of the N***** word while playing a modern COD game online. It was unbelievable. They sounded exceedingly white, in their late teens and early twenties and were completely full of a casual kind of (seemingly to them) acceptable hate. I'm Canadian and we have racial issues as well, but I've never heard that word spoken in person by a white person, never.
I stopped playing that game immediately and went to another and that was great (left 4 dead 2, maybe because its coop?)
Politics is another issue that can get very heated very fast, its such a mashup of people globally. That makes it really fun but also can make it hard to take.
Fool Count
(1,230 posts)which in their mind may be exactly the result of London's mismanagement. In any case,
they may think it is a small price to pay for not being ruled by the Tory clowns. For
instance, they may aspire to build a compact social democratic welfare state after
example of their Scandinavian neighbors, which is impossible within the UK.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)to your US analog "The South should secede"...Right, in the sense, that the south of the US does
get more from the nation than they send into it.
I, for one, would be HAPPY to see the South secede from the union, as long as we
could agree on certain basics, like providing for a common defense.
Generally speaking, the South, IMO, is insular, backward, overly religious
and conservative....I would not be alone in gladly waving buh bye.
Unfortunately, such a split would violate the U.S. Costitution.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Voltaire
(2,639 posts)I had the good fortune to be stationed in Scotland twice while I was in the Navy and did my Masters thesis on the issue of Scots Independence. So I watch this with great interest.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)And what do they hope to get out of it?
Are they going to have their own independent military? Are they going to join NATO?
What about the money, who are the real financial winners and losers?
jwirr
(39,215 posts)it repeated.
JaneQPublic
(7,113 posts)THE BRITISH and Irish governments and the people of Northern Ireland are facing the prospect and sooner than most people might think of how to manage a transformed constitutional situation where the majority in the North are likely to be from a Catholic background.
Its going to raise serious questions for southerners too, who must also address complex constitutional problems that if not managed properly and creatively could land Northern Ireland and the rest of the island back in the mire.
Its time for the beginning of a calm debate.
The figures are revealed in the statistics: there are now significantly more Catholics than Protestants in nursery, primary, second- and third-level education in Northern Ireland. If that trend continues, and its difficult to see a reason why it should not, then in another generation or so the majority population should be Catholic or from a Catholic background people of voting age, most of whose immediate antecedents are nationalist in their political outlook.
MADem
(135,425 posts)their stranglehold--and by fucked, I mean repopulated by the people whose land and heritage they stole in the first place.
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)Charlemagne
(576 posts)that is all.
MADem
(135,425 posts)dmallind
(10,437 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)they'll say goodbye to the NHS at the same time.
T_i_B
(14,737 posts)...is whether or not Scotland would join the Euro. I think the SNP may be the only people left who still think that joining the Euro is in any way a good idea.
One thing that is very bizarre about the SNP is they want to take power away from Westminster, which they consider distant and unaccountable, but they want to throw soverignity at the EU, which is even more distant and vastly more unaccountable.
ikri
(1,127 posts)There's some talk that countries such as Spain might not be too welcoming of a new devolved country entering the EU considering their own issues with the Basques and the Catalans. If Scotland devolved then there may be a push for devolved government and/or full independence from both regions.
Many of the SNP plans rely on the rest of the UK and other countries playing fair but there's no guarantees that England, Wales and Northern Ireland would allow Scotland to continue to use Sterling as their currency. There are a few UK military bases up in Scotland and there are no guarantees that they'd remain either. North Sea fishing and mineral rights may not simply start at Berwick and negotiations for both could go on for years.
Then throw in potential issues with areas in Scotland like the Shetland Isles who may want their own independence from an independent Scotland.
The SNP seems to have looked at all the good bits of an independent Scotland whilst ignoring the potential bad bits. It could become a real mess.
T_i_B
(14,737 posts)If Scotland becomes independent then it would be totally unreasonable for the Scottish govenment not to have to deal with the toxic assets of the Scottish banks. The Scots won't be able to simply offload all their problems on us Sassenachs.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)In a direct challenge to Scottish leader Alex Salmond, rebel MPs in Westminster are to debate Englands independence from Scotland later today.
The oppression of the English through harsh accents, highly confrontational man skirts and a string of Mel Gibson films has caused many people south of the border to give up hope of ever being recognised as a separate, stroppy tribe.
But all that could be about to change if the Scottish allow it.
Some English have continued to lead secret lives in pockets of the UK, drinking tea and complaining about the weather behind closed doors.
http://newsthump.com/2012/01/09/england-to-ask-nicely-for-independence-from-scotland/
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts) 'Its going to be a tough debate, thats for sure', admitted Bradcroft, 'most English MPs are too embarrassed to ask for an interpreter.' "
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)T_i_B
(14,737 posts)...which is why many of them would be quite happy to kick the Scots out of the UK.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)Hugabear
(10,340 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)Wallace was the younger son of a Scottish knight and minor landowner. His name, Wallace or le Waleis, means the Welshman, and he was probably descended from Richard Wallace who had followed the Stewart family to Scotland in the 12th century.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/independence/features_independence_wallace.shtml
Charlemagne
(576 posts)MichaelMcGuire
(1,684 posts)I like the time frame 2.5 years should let people hear all sides, then a vote in autumn of 2014 as in the SNP manifesto i.e. second half of their term. (Which isn't near the date of the battle of Bannockburn thats was in 24 June 1314) It was a Tory 'forgot the name' he was Maggies SoS said so.
The Scottish Government can hold a referendum its been given a mandate, this is important because sovereignty rests with the Scottish people. Unlike England where it rests with parliament. In other words we don't have parliamentary sovereignty in Scots Law. The problem with the Scotland 1998 act is that Westminster has somehow given itself something it has never had i.e. parliamentary sovereignty. In fact the act of union didn't give sovereignty away in fact it rehearses things it can and cannot do.
I don't trust Westminster and the condition's it would like to put on we've been down this road before....
whathehell
(29,067 posts)MicaelS
(8,747 posts)And what do you hope to get out of it?
Are you going to have your own independent military? Army, Navy, Air Force?
Are you going to join NATO? If not, why not?
What about the money, who are the real financial winners and losers?
T_i_B
(14,737 posts)Plus Scotland has grown away from the rest of Britain politically since devolution, and Scotland has been treated very badly by the Tories in the past (remember the Poll Tax?) and as such don't always feel represented by the current government who were elected by the whole of the UK.
DavidDvorkin
(19,475 posts)I wonder if it will be the beginning of a wave of breakups of the other large European countries, all of which are cobbled-together unions.
Europe of the Regions may yet happen. One result of that, I'd think, would be a more powerful central government.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)But isn't that exactly what Scotland supposedly wants their independence to avoid?
Why would a more powerful central government in London be bad, but a more powerful central government in Belgium be acceptable?
DavidDvorkin
(19,475 posts)If the EU survived, and if the units making it up became numerous and small due to the larger nations breaking up, then none of the unit would be strong enough to dominate the central government. I think power would increasingly flow to the center.
The old dream of a Europe of the Regions included this kind of setup, as I remember. I think the idea was that it would free up the old ethnic regions of Europe to reassert their old identities safely, protected by the strong overarching structure.
T_i_B
(14,737 posts)If they stay together then they will continue to dominate the central government. No matter what Alex Salmond may fantasise about, were an Independent Scotland to join the Eurozone they would be a small bit player of even less influence then the PIIGS countries and certainly no match for Germany and France.
DavidDvorkin
(19,475 posts)a breakup of all the large countries could lead to a Europe of the Regions, but it won't happen if any large, dominant countries remain intact.
I'm just speculating that independence for Scotland might encourage more such breakways -- Bavaria, for example.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)It's time to correct an injustice.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)The first minister of Wales warned that radical changes would have to be made to prevent England dominating a new United Kingdom.
Carywn Jones spoke out at a meeting of the British-Irish Council in Dublin after Salmond appeared to draw a parallel between London's treatment of Scotland and its historic behaviour towards Ireland. The first minister then softened his rhetoric to invite the prime minister and Nick Clegg to Scotland to discuss their plans to accelerate a referendum on Scottish independence.
...
Peter Robinson, the Democratic Unionist first minister of Northern Ireland, launched an impassioned plea for Scotland to remain in the UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/13/scottish-independence-wales-northern-ireland
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Fucking Scots deserve slavery for helping the English against Ireland.