Video appears to show troops urinating on corpses

[Judi Lynn]

Posted at 05:11 PM ET, 01/11/2012
Video appears to show troops urinating on corpses
By Craig Whitlock

The Marine Corps said Wednesday that it is investigating the origins of a video on the Internet that purports to show Marines in combat gear urinating on the corpses of three Taliban insurgents.

The brief video, which runs for less than a minute, began circulating on Web sites early Wednesday. It depicts four Marines laughing as they relieve themselves while standing over three prostrate bodies. (The video, which includes graphic images, appears here.)

A caption asserts that the Marines are part of a scout sniper team with the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marines, an infantry unit from Camp Lejeune, N.C. Members of the unit were deployed to Afghanistan last year but returned in September.

Capt. Kendra N. Hardesty, a Marine Corps spokesman, said officials would “fully investigate” the matter but so far have been unable to verify the video’s authenticity or if members of the battalion were involved.

More:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/video-appears-to-show-troops-urinating-on-corpses/2012/01/11/gIQAywxhrP_blog.html

[tabasco]

1. When you're a commander ...

this is the kind of stuff you need to crack down on severely.

If you don't the next thing you know, there will be no discipline and soldiers will be torturing motherfuckers.

[southernyankeebelle]

4. You betcha. They are criminal for doing that. How would we feel if it were the other way around.

This isn't doing honor to the military.

[MrSlayer]

2. Is that worse than blowing their brains out?

It's not the killing that was so bad, it was the pissing on the bodies. War sucks.

[Stuart G]

10. You open up this fucken door, called ..WAR..and..

The worst things immaginable happen..
Mr.Slayer is correct...
What is discussed in the original post..is not the worst thing..got 32 minutes..watch this..

Night and Fog...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048434/

It will make you think real hard about war..
If not, well you are dead..

Oh..so you think it is about Europe???
try this on for size
The Killing Fields...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087553/

[BigDemVoter]

15. I don't know. . .. I think I would rather get pissed on than killed any time!

And I'm NOT into piss. . .

[Critters2]

82. That was my first thought when I heard this...

They killed 'em, and then pee'd on 'em...and peeing on 'em was the outrage?!

[boppers]

109. Alive, they could pee back.

Shooting at them, they could shoot back, so to speak.

[Blue Owl]

3. Weren't we supposed to be greeted as liberators, not urinators?

They were probably following Cheney's old protocol.

[stevenleser]

6. Shut yer piehole, troll. nt

[Alameda]

7. My father, my uncle, brother and cousin all Marines....let me tell you, this is cowardly

and disgusting behavior that brings dishonor to the service. You should crawl back into the hole you came out of, idiot!

[HangOnKids]

9. Sealclubber has left the building

Rumor has it he was clubbed to death by a small furry cute animal.

[Judi Lynn]

28. Now there's a good move! Thanks. n/t

[Blacksheep214]

73. They represent us.

Can't take the high road when your discipline is in the gutter.

UCMJ do your stuff!

[chrisa]

8. Crap. Hold on, let me get my squirrel gun.

[McCamy Taylor]

11. If only we got as outraged by the killing of civilians as we do by the desecration of corpses.

[Muskypundit]

30. not to try to minimize the deaths of civilians

But statistics say that that death was by the taliban, nearly every time. U.S forces call civilian deaths a tragedy, to the taliban its business.

[The Stranger]

36. What bullshit.

Please.

[Muskypundit]

74. I have been there.

So I am not talking out of my ass. When we kill civilians it is accidental. The taliban does it to maintain control of villages NATO contacts. They murder villagers who they find out talked to us. They car bomb civilians by the dozens daily just to make it look like the government cannot provide security. They kill little girls who try to go to school, women who try to get outside of the house, people who use technology.

In Afghanistan around 50% support NATO, and I understand why the other 50% do not. We do cause accidental civilian deaths, and we do have the rare homicidal maniacs. Both of which the taliban are very good at capitalizing on. But even still, their approval rating can be counted in single digits.

So do not be uninformed. And please do not insinuate I do not know what I am talking about. I have seen enough dead for multiple lifetimes. I might have a sense of what is going on.

U.S troops will die because of this. That act was despicable, and completely unhonorable. But in many troops when they are confronted with probable death on a daily basis, running over bombs every week, taking mortar and artillery fire every night, seeing their brothers die in front of them regularly... Many stop caring about anything at all. They are already dead.

[unionworks]

83. Welcome to D.U.

And I totally agree. You will find, unfortunately, that there are also knee jerk reactionaries that have no clue as to what is going on, and could care less. I ignore them.

[happyslug]

91. 50% support for NATO, not the polls I have read

Here is a 2010 poll, remember it is done under NATO Cover, so there is a tendency of such polls to be pro-NATO for that reason alone (i.e. people lie because they do NOT dare tell the truth to people they do not think wants to hear it). This NATO poll shows only a 49% support for NATO, 49% opposition (These numbers do NOT seem normal to me, should be more people neutral, which implied to me most neutral said they were pro-NATO for that is what they thought the poll taker wanted to hear). :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/06/AR2010120601788.html

Here is a report on a BBC poll, that showed 58% of the people said support for NATO was weak or non-existent in their area, but that 82% support the government (And, in my opinion, that can not be right, you need over 80% support at the start of a rebellion to maintain effective support as the other side try to suppress the rebellion, most people go from support to neutral NOT support of one side to the other, i.e. 82% support for the Taliban, that drops to about 50% after a few years of fighting, if supports drops to the teens the rebellion is finished, the support for the Taliban is way over 20% of the populations, probably over 50%, thus the 82% support for the Current Government can NOT be true, I would have more faith in these poll results if the support of the Government was closer to 50-60%).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_02_09afghan_poll_2009.pdf
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/02/afghanistan-poll-results.html

As Mao Ze--dong said, the Guerrilla must be a fish in the ocean of the people. If the Guerrilla loses the support of the people, he is defeated. The Taliban do NOT seem to lack support, thus they have support of the people, probably over at least 50% of the people.

Now, this is complicated by the complex politics of Afghanistan. Afghanistan is made up of weak tribal groups, I use the term Weak Tribal Groups to differentiated the Afghans from the Arabs of Iraq (Who tend to have strong centralized tribal groups). These weak Tribal groups tend to be people who speak, interact and inter marry, but do NOT follow the same leaders. As such alliances between members of Tribal Groups are common, even between members of two different tribes against other members of those same two or more tribes.

The Taliban had tapped into this system of tribal politics, as has the US, NATO and the current government of Afghanistan. In most cases these sub groups of the tribes are looking for what is best for their sub group, NOT their larger tribe nor Afghanistan.

The Taliban seem to have be able to use these groups to the Taliban's advantage more the NATO, the US or the current government of Afghanistan. This has enhanced the power of the Taliban, and weaken NATO, the US and the current Afghan government.

If the US would just adopt the same policy it adopted in Iraq, the US and NATO could stand a chance of winning, but Iraq had a source of Income the US and NATO could control and spread around (The oil revenue), no such revenue exists in Afghanistan (And the only good export, opium, appears to be under the control of certain US and NATO allies AND the US and NATO can not turn against that Ally, for that ally would then ally with the Taliban).

Thus NATO has a problem in Afghanistan, take over the Opium markets, and then distribute the wealth produced by that product to spread US and NATO influence. The problem is, the group that presently control the opium market will defect to the Taliban if they lose their market share.

If NATO and the US do NOT take over the Opium Trade, then NATO and the US has no source of revenue to spread to any new ally NATO and the US can convince to join the current Governmental of Afghanistan, NATO and the US.

In many ways, this is the same mess the Soviet Union ended up in when it went into Afghanistan (and seems to have been foreseen by Stalin, for it was Stalin that set up the old Kingdom of Afghanistan as a way to prevent any British attack onto the Soviet Union via Afghanistan. the locals could do as they pleased knowing the Stalin would NOT send in troops as long as no British troops entered Afghanistan from British India, Stalin left Afghanistan as a no man's land between the Soviet Union and British India).

Stalin's solution was NOT politically correct for the Communists in his Government, so come the 1970s that Afghanistan was a feudal monarchy was viewed as a error by the hard line communists in the Kremlin. Thus rather then continue Stalin's policy of leaving Afghanistan alone, the Soviet Union tried to modernize Afghanistan, and when that was rejected by the local overthrew the Monarchy and when the subsequent government also failed to modernized Afghanistan invaded.

Yes, the Soviet invasion was an attempt to modernize Afghanistan, but as Stalin apparently foresaw, it became a debacle for all Afghanistan has ever been was a place for people to hide. As people on the run, they tend to see any invaders as enemies after them.

Thus the weak tribal nature of Afghanistan, people tend to look to close relatives and friends more then any larger group (i.e. tribes or the modern Nation-state). The Taliban has used this existing system of clans (Lack of a better term) for its fight against the US, NATO and the Current Government of Afghanistan. To do that the Taliban MUST have been able get these Clans and other tribal sub-groups to support the Taliban. Most of the Clan Members prefer their own clan members over the Taliban, the Current Government of Afghanistan or even the Tribe the clan members are a member of.

My point is that it seems that over 50% of the population of Afghanistan support the Taliban. Without that level of support, the Taliban could NOT have survived this long (For comparison look at Al Queda, it has little support in the Arab World and, except for an occasional terrorist act, is not a factor in any Islamic Nation. That is NOT true of the Taliban, which has extensive presence in Afghanistan).

My point is given the success of the Taliban AND what is being used against them in terms of men and material, the support for the Taliban has to exceed 50% of the population. I do NOT mean active support, i.e. willing to fight for the Taliban, but willing to feed and cloth the Taliban fighters. I suspect it was 80% support at the time of the US invasion, but dropped after the Invasion. It does NOT look like support ever fell into teens, but only in the last 4-5 years reached up to the level it was at the time of the invasion.

Just pointing out you can NOT go by how the natives treat you. The Natives have to live and they will go where the money is and act like they are your best friend, but when it comes to decide who they support, it seems to be pro-Taliban not pro-NATO.

[Muskypundit]

101. Thank you for an informed debate and well thought out points.

But Afghanistan is every bit as occupied by the taliban and al queda as they are NATO. For example, over half of the insurgents are from places other than Afghanistan. Mainly Pakistan. But a lot are also from Saudi Arabia, Yemen, north Africa, chechnya. Chechnyans make the best snipers by the way. A lot of the money that funds the insurgents comes from other places too. Not including the funding that may or may not come from governments.

What we are finding in Afghanistan is that operatives will go to villagers and pay them good money to plant IEDs. The money from that comes faster to them than anything from the government.

I appreciate your understanding of a conventional rebellions, and the numbers needed to sustain and grow it. That is good knowledge, and a lot of those points are points I went there holding in my pocket. It's a good basis, a needed basis. But there are a million other circumstances added onto it you start to see when you get there. It gets convoluted and complex really quick.

And honestly after all this time I still don't know what to make of it. I will be there again this summer, so maybe I can win the war this time.

[gateley]

12. Not condoning this by any means, but I can't help think that you put a person in a war situation

and it's GOT to fuck up their heads. Yes, I know, not everyone loses it, but it has got to affect different people in different ways. I always wonder if people who would do something like this would be thinking this was okay if they were reading about it back home, or if they're just as appalled as we are.

I believe that in many of these incidents, the people involved would never have dreamed they would exhibit such behavior.

Regardless, it needs to be addressed and I'm just so sorry this occurred.

[Deep13]

13. Don't care. Already dead.

And the Taliban are the "bad guys" anyway.

[yardwork]

14. Even in war, there are rules. This violates them. War crimes.

[Deep13]

16. Corpse crimes? They're already dead.

And it's entirely symbolic.

[yardwork]

17. We're not at war in Afghanistan anymore, remember? Symbolic is all we got.

[sad sally]

29. Symbols of a civilized society? If the answer is yes, America is doomed...

While it is important for incidents to be as clearly defined and distinguishable from each other as possible, the same holds even more true for victims. A full list of every victim of the conflict, individual by individual, name by name, remains the ultimate long-term goal of the IBC project.

In explaining this approach we wrote, in 2008,

It is always difficult to convey the gravity and pain contained in the experiences behind the numbers. Although we may speak of dozens killed in a particular incident or thousands over a span of time, it is of course individuals who die and are mourned. And no society considers itself civilised if it fails to give the dead the final dignity of recognition not as a mass, but as individuals.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/warlogs/?du

[RoccoR5955]

43. Symbolism is everything.

What happened to respect for humans in their death?
How does this win over the minds of the people we are fighting?

[Warren Stupidity]

45. I suspect you would care a whole lot if the pissers and the pissed on

switchedon sides.

[Deep13]

115. Actually, I changed my mind.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=24315

[AtheistCrusader]

67. And what do you think that symbol will do?

This endangers Americans and our Allies the world over. This is going to enrage a WHOLE lot of people.

Rage is something the world needs less of, not more.

[Deep13]

116. Actually, I changed my mind.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=24315

[AtheistCrusader]

136. Good call.

I totally understand where you were coming from, but I'm impressed too, it's never easy to re-evaluate deeply held beliefs/etc. High-five.

[BigDemVoter]

18. Unsavory, Disrespectful, Disgusting, Gross but . . . a War Crime?

Mmmmm. Ugly behavior, yes, but. . . aren't war crimes directed against the living?

[yardwork]

25. Not necessarily. Desecration of corpses can be a war crime. See this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101423497

[BigDemVoter]

26. Ah, ok-- thanks!

News to me!

[Hugabear]

69. So then by your logic, grave-robbing and necrophilia are no big deal

Amazing...simply amazing.

I'd expect this from malicious intruder...but not someone who's been around here as long as you have.

[Deep13]

107. Disagreement is not malice.

War is a nasty business and people become hardened in their hatreds by years of fighting.

Even still, I've changed my mind and will explain that in a seperate post.

[mojowork_n]

19. Judi Lynn, thank you for being an active D.U.'er.

Along with the obvious inferences, "War is Hell," and "There are certain Video Clips
our Public News Media Will Never Show Us,"

....this one makes me think, "our guys over there must be way, way, way over-
stressed."

When I was a kid, there was a war on. It was "the war to save Vietnam from the
horrors of the Red Menace, Communism."

Television news regularly gave us views of that war. Even when they were
horrific.

That's no longer true.

This horrific "war on terror" has been completely sanitized. But there may be
Americans paying the cost for that news suppression. The war is invisible.
Anything that happens only exists in their own psychic zone.

Edit to add:

Link to a great book on war propaganda, and it's consequences:

http://www.amazon.com/First-Casualty-Phillip-Knightley/dp/1853753769

"The First Casualty: the War Correspondent as Hero and Myth-Maker
From the Crimea to Kosovo"

[Deep13]

20. DUers are not representative of American liberals.

And whether a fraction of Americans are liberals or if only one American is, the argument has to be judged on its merits, not by who agrees with it.

As noted, I don't care about this because in my judgment it is purely symbolic. It's not like they were torturing people like our people did at Abu Grave. It's not like they were indiscriminately killing civilians with aircraft like our people did all over Iraq and Afghanistan. It's not like those men were looting the Iraqi national treasury like American operatives did.

[Stuart G]

21. Of course it is bad..It is all bad..

Damn It that is Why

War is to be avoided at all costs. Only for defensive purposes

How about his one..Sand Creek?.
.what happens to bodies in war???
Don't know do you?....give you a link if anyone is watching this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre

read it.

[Mira]

22. With tears I imagine what it does to the psyche of the perpetrators

and what it does to their spouses/children/rest of the family/community/country at large to have these damaged people re-integrate into society.

[Stuart G]

23. How about this...about war..War against Indians..OK. Sand Creek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre
Now...you don't have to hit the link..the info is right here..........

Shit...War is to be avoided.......it ruins the fighters minds and turns them into?????????????
read carefully, there was a flag of peace there, there were no fighters there.......there was an American Flag there.......
________________________________________________________________________________________

Black Kettle, a chief of a group of around 800 mostly Northern Cheyenne, reported to Fort Lyon in an effort to establish peace. After having done so, he and his band, along with some Arapaho under Chief Niwot, camped out at nearby Sand Creek, less than 40 miles north. The Dog Soldiers, who had been responsible for many of the raids on whites, were not part of this encampment. Assured by the U.S. Government's promises of peace, most of the warriors were off hunting buffalo, leaving only around 60 men, and women and children in the village. Most of the men were too old or too young to hunt. Black Kettle flew an American flag over his lodge, since previously the officers had said this would show he was friendly and prevent attack by U.S. soldiers.[15]

Setting out from Fort Lyon, Chivington and his 700 troops of the First Colorado Cavalry, Third Colorado Cavalry and a company of First New Mexico Volunteers marched to Black Kettle's campsite. On the night of November 28, soldiers and militia drank heavily and celebrated their anticipated victory.[16] On the morning of November 29, 1864, Chivington ordered his troops to attack. Two officers, Captain Silas Soule and Lieutenant Joseph Cramer, commanding companies D and K, respectively, of the First Colorado Cavalry, refused to follow Chivington's order and told their men to hold fire.[17] Other soldiers in Chivington's force, however, immediately attacked the village. Disregarding the American flag, and a white flag that was run up shortly after the soldiers commenced firing, Chivington's soldiers massacred many of its inhabitants.


I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces ... With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors ... By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ...

—- John S. Smith, Congressional Testimony of Mr. John S. Smith, 1865[18]


Fingers and ears were cut off the bodies for the jewelry they carried. The body of White Antelope, lying solitarily in the creek bed, was a prime target. Besides scalping him the soldiers cut off his nose, ears, and testicles-the last for a tobacco pouch ...

—- Stan Hoig[19]


Jis to think of that dog Chivington and his dirty hounds, up thar at Sand Creek. His men shot down squaws, and blew the brains out of little innocent children. You call sich soldiers Christians, do ye? And Indians savages? What der yer 'spose our Heavenly Father, who made both them and us, thinks of these things? I tell you what, I don't like a hostile red skin any more than you do. And when they are hostile, I've fought 'em, hard as any man. But I never yet drew a bead on a squaw or papoose, and I despise the man who would.

[unionworks]

24. Heard on NPR today

...that the dead "soldiers" were in fact Taliban. Sorry, no love here for men who throw acid on the faces of girls for attending school.

[The Stranger]

37. Then you are just like them.

Congrats.

[unionworks]

39. "I" am not

...like anyone. I am not nor have I been in Afghanistan. We are talking about Marines deployed in Afghanistan, IF the video turns out to be real, which hasn't been established yet. Sorry, not taking the bait. Go fish.

[MrMickeysMom]

130. Whether or not the video is "real", we've done wrong...

... with this act.

[unionworks]

131. What do you mean, "we",

Paleface?

[unkachuck]

27. just more recruitment ammunition for the taliban....this behaivor is stupid on so many levels....n/t

[midnight]

31. Just bring them home and let's try and rehab the World from this hell...

[unionworks]

32. Twice in the last week

I heard on the news that iraq/afghanistan vets snapped and killed people. One killed a park ranger, the other killed a cop as they raided his home. Vietnam was a one year tour of duty. They keep sending these kids backover and over, fighting wars that the 1% started. God forbid rich people should get drafted and have to fight. Expet to see much more of this.

[Bozvotros]

33. War is hell

What do you suppose you would feel if someone dear to you had their legs blown off, the features seared off their face, or their spinal cord severed and you heard their screams of agony? What would you want to do to people who ran around burying high explosives in a thousand places in the hopes of maiming or killing more people in your family? Soldiers in combat are often closer to their buddies than anyone else in their life before or after. I work with Vietnam vets who 50 years later still hear in their dreams the gurgling moans of dying friends. If you think you wouldn't or couldn''t act the way these men did, you are deluded.

Our government trains men to be brute killers, puts them into hopeless wars where they are despised by civilians, where combatants are indistinguishable from everyone else and then gives them rules of engagement that could get everyone in their company killed. That kind of "warfare" which the US has specialized in, has led to millions of dead, maimed and crazed victims including hundreds of thousands of US troops whose sacrifice and suffering was only for someone else's profit or some doomed geopolitical strategy. You think those soldiers can't figure it out or aren't feeling pissed on themselves?

http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

[ejbr]

41. +1 n/t

[go west young man]

34. Reading this thread it's surprising to see how many apologists

there are at DU for this unprofessional behavior. There is no middle ground people.
Professional exemplary soldiers don't do this type of stuff. Blaming the war and the
experience of being in Afghanistan doesn't excuse it either. These men have now
exacerbated an already terrible situation and given the enemy more cause to fight.
Amateur weekend warriors with over inflated egos is what I see here. The UCMJ
needs to be applied quickly and harshly to discourage these abominations our
troops sometimes commit.

[unionworks]

40. Suprising to see

How many apologists there are for the taliban on D.U.. Imagine you are deadd and someone is peeing on you. Doesn't hurt much, does it? Now imagine you are a 12 year old afghan girl who just had acid thrown in her face for attending school, or her nose cut off for wearing makeup by these taliban "holy warriors". Which one hurts more?

[Warren Stupidity]

46. Don't piss on dead people.

It seems like a pretty simple rule.

[unionworks]

51. Geez

Sounds like a lot of people are "pissed off" over this!

[Warren Stupidity]

52. Sorry that you dont understand that this is indefensible behavior,

[unionworks]

53. I understand

Very well that the young soldiers who did this are in very serious trouble. And I know what that feels like. However, never having served in the military, let alone havinng been in combat, I do not feel at all qualified to stand in judgement of these men. And it saddens me to see how many people on D.U. who in many other ways are compassionate people, feel the need to condemn someone in a situation they have absolutely no understanding of. On another thread recently I saw a group viciously attack a Vietnam veteran who was dealing with his own bad memories. It seemed these posters were more concerned with their own egos in front of their friends than in caring about someone who got fucked up in the course of serving. I sincerely hope that when these Marines stand in court, those selected to judge them are ones who have been through war and understand what it does to ones moral fabric.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. no obviously you don't understand.

Don't piss on dead people. Don't cut off parts for trophies. Don't shoot civilians. Don't rape the women.

Wearing a uniform is not a license to commit crimes.

[unionworks]

56. whatever. n/t

[Scout]

58. scathingly brilliant argument, you win! n/t

[Fokker Trip]

48. So your yardstick is that "they do it so we can too"?

That is just sooo honorable. Kind of link killing an entire wedding party using missiles from a drone, but that would never happen, would it?

[unionworks]

50. Sorryy

Never heard of an entire wedding party being killed by pee. Then again, with soome of the stuff I drink...

[LanternWaste]

63. Precisely how does one get to...

Precisely how does one get to "apologists there are for the taliban" from merely observing the vulgarity of urinating on a corpse?

Are the dead civilians resurrected via the urination? Does the urination assist in meeting some national or cultural goal? Does urinating on the corpses reduce the pain of a nose being cut off? Or is your leap of faith merely misdirected feelings and lacking in critical thought...?

(I'm guessing it's simply misdirected feelings... )

[unionworks]

84. I have tried to express

...on here my agreement that the behavior is unacceptable, but not on the same level as more serious war crimes. I am saying it to you as you seem reasonable. Others were braying too loudly to hear me.

[LanternWaste]

137. The I may assume that implying DU posters are apologists for the Taliban is also braying too loudly?

The I may assume that implying DU posters are apologists for the Taliban is also braying too loudly?

[unionworks]

138. I'm afraid

The belligerent nature of your posts to me makes productive discussion impossible. Therefore, I am once again forced to press the flush button.... happy trails.

[LanternWaste]

139. We often see what we want to see.

"The belligerent nature of your posts..."

We often see what we want to see, and interpret the benign as justification for our martyrdom.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

93. This is very simple. It's not about the Taliban. It's about us.

I want better for my country than to just barely edge out the Taliban when it comes to barbarism. You should want better for your country too. There's not much more to it than that, except to mention that you can now look forward to seeing some hapless American's corpse being urinated on by the Taliban or some other group. Do you think we'll be happy here when that comes to pass?

[unionworks]

94. Scroll down

to bottom of thread for answer

[DisgustipatedinCA]

95. That's no answer. That's you refusing to listen to the very small & important point I made.

[unionworks]

98. To quote Marvin Gaye

"War is not the answer, only love can conquer hate" War is just one long downhill slope. It never gets better, it only gets worse.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

100. War is hell, so let's go ahead and be as brutal as we can be. Is that the idea?

No thank you.

[Alcibiades]

60. Good point

It is also worth noting, however, that these are not "weekend warriors," such as the guards at Abu Grahib were. These are Marine Scout Snipers, some of the most elite infantry in the world: if they show such poor discipline, it's not a good indicator of our standards in conducting this war.

It's worth noting that there must be five guys here: four to do the peeing, one to hold the camera. There's no guy saying "Hey, this is a bad idea," instead, these five guys are all in on the sick joke. This also took some effort: they had to line up the corpses, drink lots of coffee, etc. This was not a spur of the moment thing.

[Alcibiades]

35. Here's the link to the USMC Scout Sniper requirements

http://www.usmcscoutsniper.org/hogsden/becoming.htm

Item 12:

"Students should also possess a high degree of maturity, equanimity, and common sense."

These are supposedly some of the best trained infantrymen in the US military. If they are so undisciplined, how can we chalk this up to "a few bad apples?"

[DeathToTheOil]

38. K'd & R'd

Sorry 'bout the inadvertant dupe, JL.

[MaineDem]

42. Stupid asses!

They should know better.

[Hotler]

44. MORE WAR! MORE WAR! MORE WAR! MORE WAR! N/T

[Mr Dixon]

47. SMH

What people seem to forget is that these disturbed Soldiers will be walking our streets when the War is over. Unemployed and unbalanced, people skills, they will be lucky to get a job in fast food, you can’t just turn off the kill switch, I fear for the public when these Soldiers come home.

[Fokker Trip]

49. This is a really good point.

It also worth remembering that years ago the standards for recruiting were lowered and this allowed many with crimes in their past and rather scary affiliations to join the US military.

White power folk were joining specifically to kill "rag heads" and to get experience to use and teach for the "coming race war" in the US.

The idea that the US military is made up only of honorable people is a myth in current times, and its probably always been a myth, there are many bad apples in the barrel and even people who didn't start out bad can be made bad by the horrors of war.

Its a little scary that on a progressive board anyone criticizing the US military seems to get pounced on. This is generally a symptom of a hyper-militarized society where everyone is trying to outdo everyone else in the race to "support the troops" with greater and greater blind loyalty.

When the military is purely voluntary then self selection is going on and a certain percentage of that military will have joined because they really enjoy killing and hurting people. Like that soldier who recruited his buddies to hold a little rape party for that 14 year old Iraqi girl. He was charged and found guilty I believe, but how many cases are unreported.

How about the fact that a majority of female soldier can look forward to being raped or sexually harassed in some way while posted.

But those honorable soldiers would never do that, would they?

"According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veteran Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed."

That's more than a few bad apples.

Women at war face sexual violence (deals with the US military)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8005198.stm

Sorry, who is honorable and moral?

Rape in the US military: America's dirty little secret

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military

[Scout]

59. you got it.

"The idea that the US military is made up only of honorable people is a myth in current times, and its probably always been a myth, there are many bad apples in the barrel and even people who didn't start out bad can be made bad by the horrors of war. "

now waiting for the comprehension challenged to accuse me of saying all those in the military are dishonorable....

[Hugabear]

71. +100000 - valid point, and very scary

Scary to think of all the domestic terrorists we're creating

[KansDem]

54. Install these at USMC boot camp

After all, he's the one who lied them into war. They can get it out of their systems before deploying...

[unionworks]

57. that's awesome n/t

[Hugabear]

70. I would so buy one of those

Best toilet ever

[Alcibiades]

61. This may even pose a problem as we try to end this war

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/Taliban-Ready-for-Afghan-Peace-Talks-137166333.html

The Taliban appear ready to talk, but now? Even Karzai has had to express his displeasure, though it's likely his own fighters probably did as bad or worse in their conduct of war against the Taliban.

[Evasporque]

62. Well timed release at the time when talks are underway.....

Seems someone in the military wants the war to continue....or maybe CIA....

[Islandlife]

64. The real story is the motive for publishing the video

Why publicize the atrocities of war?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

66. "Why publicize the atrocities of war?"

Because it is the Truth. This is being done in our names, and we must face it head on.

[LanternWaste]

68. Because knowledge is an absolute good.

"Why publicize the atrocities of war...?"


Because knowledge is an absolute good, though our particular and individual feelings about that knowledge may vary.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

72. Ummm, "ratings"?

It's news. Ya gotta publish it. Your competition will certainly publish it.

I wonder what motivated the creation of the video. Assuming it's "real", what were these Marines thinking? That there could possibly be a good outcome from video evidence of a crime? It reminds me of Somali fighters dragging U.S. corpses through the streets of Mogadishu.

I certainly hope it isn't "real", that it was staged by non-Marines, possibly by college students on winter break.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

111. Well, my hopes fell thru

These were real Marines, identified by the investigators. The military justice system will now take over, influenced by whichever late-breaking political winds happen to sweep by.

As of now, it sucks to be them.

[unionworks]

133. Bingo

You hit it right on the head. As chesty puller once said during a base inspection when they showed him the marching band, "take me to the brig. I want to see the real Marines".

[Hell Hath No Fury]

65. Stupid, unprofessional -

fucking yahoos.

I wish I could say it's as simple as "this is what war does to you" but this type of behavior goes beyond that -- we already see that type of group behavior here, similar to when groups of men set homeless people on fire.

[deacon_sephiroth]

75. wow, stay classy USMC...

signed - USAF

[Badsam]

77. Talking tough from the back row

[boppers]

112. It's harder to piss on people from the back row.

It's also unnecessary, and doesn't shame one's entire branch of service.

This isn't just on the US military, these were (supposedly) US Marines.

I guess, maybe, that just doesn't mean what it used to.

[Badsam]

76. At any time, you may join the Marines

And show us how you would fight this war. Until then, your opinions are invalid.

We killed the bad guys and if the Taliban has a problem with it they can blow up innocent people... Again

[RoccoR5955]

78. Like our guys never blow up innocent people.

Yeah, right. If you believe that I have a bridge for sale... CHEAP!

I would not fight the war. It's illegal, so following an illegal order makes you a criminal too.

[EFerrari]

80. 'Way to defend war crimes.

:

[polly7]

79. Pretty damn disgusting.

A lot less so than murdering human beings in the first place, but then when a whole area of the world is dehumanized and Geneva conventions tossed aside, this is what we're left with. I wish their families and neighbours luck.

[47of74]

81. I would say to the people doing that to the dead

Here is my personal message to the people who did that to the dead

Dear Idiots,

You dishonor and disgrace every American who ever put on the uniform of our country's armed forces, especially those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

I suppose that you all are a bunch of right wing Christian types. Jesus in Matthew 7 said, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:1-2) Do you realize what you have done? You just told the rest of the world that there is no reason to show any consideration for the Earthly remains of our fallen brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers and so on. You told the rest of the world that there is no reason to treat the remains of others - especially Americans - with the utmost care and respect because we obviously will not hold ourselves to that same standard.

If positions were reversed and it was a bunch of Afghan troops pissing on deceased Americans you'd probably all be apoplectic right now. You'd probably be incensed that the remains of Americans have been so disrespectfully treated. You'd want those SOBs hunted down and brought to justice for their actions.

If you want our fallen to be treated with care and concern, you need to do the same with the bodies of even our worst enemies. You need to show that the United States actually rises to the occasion instead of dragging our name further down into the sewers like you have done.

[unionworks]

85. Few Marines I have known

...were right wing christian types.... the rest of your post I have no problem with...

[unionworks]

86. yep...

... we should show our enemies the same respect they have for our dead...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

96. That's not "our dead". that's a blackwater merc.

[cherokeeprogressive]

105. ????? What were the nationalities of the four they mutilated, and whose flag were they operating

under?

Not "our dead"? Do you think THOSE people knew these individuals were employed by Blackwater?

Whoa.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

108. They're mercenaries. They kill and die for money

Take your whoa on a trip in the DU time machine and see what the general consensus was here back when it happened.

[unionworks]

127. As you well know....

... the "general consensus" is not always correct. Ask Valerie Plame....

[boppers]

113. They weren't in uniform, or in military vehicles.

That makes them mercs.

Did you learn the Geneva conventions in school?

[unionworks]

129. there are several

....good spook flicks coming out right now. Suggest "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" most highly. Real spooks don't drive Aston Martins or wear white tuxedos. They are completely boringly ordinary... and that is what makes them dangerous. You don't see them coming...

[boppers]

132. And that's why they don't get protections.

No uniform= not a war crime to mutilate your body.

[unionworks]

134. Absolutely correct

... a friend in USAF SOG had to go through "sanitizing" before flying over the ho chi minh trail in Laos, so the government could "disavow" him. At first he thought it was cool. When he understood it, he found it dehumanizing.

[unionworks]

122. I read the story

They were Americans, one at least who had a wife and kids waiting at home. And not all of them engaged in the atrocities we have come to associate with Blackwater. In fact, these mercs in the picture may have died as the result of a doublecross...

[LanternWaste]

140. What is the precise and relevant reason that one's morality should be predicated

What is the precise and relevant reason that one's own morality should be predicated on the immorality of another?

[unionworks]

87. like in Somolia...

?w=700

[DisgustipatedinCA]

97. I don't believe the Taliban operated in Somalia circa 1992

[unionworks]

106. A historic point...

... because you seemed to be impressively knowledgable on the photos and I'm not trying to say "I'm right! I'm right"... but you might find it interesting. According to the book "Black Hawk Down", Al Queda was operating in Mogadaishu (sp?) in '92 and taught the militias how to modify RPGs to shoot down Black Hawks. I'm a very amatuer history buff.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

110. That's interesting, hadn't heard it before, but I believe you

Of course, we (CIA) basically created al Qaeda from the Muhajadeen as a foil to the Soviets, and I guess they joined up with the Taliban sometime after that. Thanks for letting me know about AlQ in Somalia.

[unionworks]

118. And you politely

...abstained from pointing out to me that Al Queda and Taliban are not one and the same.

[unionworks]

88. So you want to go to school and do a mans job?

The Talibans answer to that... acid in the face

[DisgustipatedinCA]

99. Terrible photos of terrible crimes. But why is it you think we should become animals?

[unionworks]

102. You sound reasonable

I have tried to express that the behavior is totally unacceptable, but not on the same level as more serious war crimes. (killing civilians, etc.) It was a damn stupid thing to do. I don't feel qualified to pass judgement, I have never had to kill people for my country. That is all I'm saying.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

104. Thank you. And I'll just leave it there. n/t

[unionworks]

89. wearing makeup

isn't such a great idea with the taliban in the neighborhood either.








My apologies for the mistreatment they suffered at the hands of the Marines.

[boppers]

117. You appear to be making an argument that one crime, by one person, deserves another crime...

... to a different person.

Is that the argument you intend to make?

[unionworks]

119. I'm not into arguing

... at all. You are totally free to disagree. And no, that was not my point, as I have explained elsewhere on this thread.

[boppers]

120. Are you familiar with the concept:

"Guilt by association"?

[unionworks]

121. I have associated

...with many Marines. I grew up in a tough neighborhood in a steel mill town where going into the Corps was a tradition going back to ww2. I myself signed up, during a layoff from the mill at age 19, but was called back to work during my 2 week waiting period. So I went back to work. The Marine recruiters walk around the toughest neighborhoods in dress blues, offering young men and women the chance to earn self respect and a way out of the ghetto scene and poverty. I had some friends I grew up with come back from Vietnam seriously fucked up and dangerous to those around them. I have held a friend in my arms with his arms of steel nearly crushing me, crying uncontrollably during a flashback. Some of these friends ended up dead, even though they survive the war, they never really came home. Guilt by association? I guess I'm guilty then.. But I am not ashamed.

[boppers]

124. I was talking about the Taliban, but your response is thought provoking, anyways.

All Marines are the same.... just like all Taliban are the same... which is to say, not at all.

[unionworks]

125. And that was a very insightful

...reply. My deepest regret of my entire life? I will never know if I could make the grade, will never have faced the ultimate test. You?

[boppers]

128. I took a non-violence vow at 14.

Defense, always, never, ever, offense.

I support my post-trauma brothers (Soldiers, Sailors, Gangsters, etc.), *as* brothers, and didn't need another source of PTSD for myself.

I had already made the grade, and survived, in my eyes, and no longer felt any need to be tested. I could put a 1911 together in the dark (thought not an AR/M), go for days without food, run for 20 hours straight, set my own broken bones, survive in the woods with only a knife, be beaten senseless and still not break, butcher any mammal, ignore sprains and bone breaks until a goal was reached, etc.

Suffice to say, I had a really, really, fucked up childhood.

What do you consider "the ultimate test", out of curiosity?

[Badsam]

141. The argument I'm making is I dont

Give a fvck what the Taliban or any of their supporters think.

And it is probably the cleanest any of them has ever been

[unionworks]

90. The Real Story

[Puglover]

92. Killing them is honorable.

Pissing on them after killing them deserves a court martial. world.

We create the monster and then bitch about it when it rears it's ugly head. Sad.

[unionworks]

103. Long ago

...on a very hot humid summer night, I sat around a record player in a front porch with some friends who had recently returned from Vietnam. We passed the pipe and the bottle and this is what I heard...

[Deep13]

114. I've changed my mind on this.

This is a way to dehumanize ones enemies. I have no respect for the Taliban or what they stand for. Even still, they are warriors risking their lives for what they believe in. Most of us will never do that. They deserve a modicum of respect as brave men even if their cause is one of the worse for which men have ever fought. U.S. Grant said something similar when talking about CSA soldiers. Those men were in open rebellion against the USA and were in effect fighting for slavery. So, I don't think the fact that our government and media labels Taliban fighters as "terrorists" really means anything for this specific point. I hate the sneaky, ambush tactics the Taliban uses--IEDs and whatnot--as they are not only cruel but run contrary to the Homeric tradition many in the West still consider to be the warrior ideal. Still, I must admit that they are stuck using the weapons they have. Warriors ought to afford each other a level of basic respect for being warriors.

I understand that a decade of tough fighting hardens hatred. Desecrating the remains of the enemy is an expression of that hate. It really is understandable and I do not fault the Marines for feeling that way. Unfortunately, treating the enemy as subhuman, unworthy of respect, will only harden their resolve causing the fighting to continue and causing civilians to suffer. This is the same complaint I had with Abu Grave (and yeah, that was a much worse situation). Ultimately, such things make it worse for everyone involved.

[unionworks]

123. Thank you

For one of the finest posts that will ever be posted on. D.U..

[Deep13]

126. Wow, thanks. nt

[Badsam]

142. You must earn respect and the mere fact

That they kill ( inhumanly) for a belief is hardly a reason to respect.

Nice try though.

[Deep13]

144. So do our people.

Whoever is right is immaterial in the end. They are both fighting and killing. As far as it being inhumane, there are few who die well who die in war. You may not approve of it, but there is an implicit fraternity of death.

[Badsam]

143. One more thing on respect, let us not forget

Who was responsible for hiding Bin Laden.
Let's show some respect for the victims of 9/11.
Remember them?

[Deep13]

145. What the hell are you talking about?

Nothing you said refutes my point. Before the battle of Thermopylae, Leonidas sent two soldiers away to deliver messages. Those two men were the only survivors of the "300." Both men killed themselves. Such is the respect that warriors command.

The Taliban hid bin Laden because he was an asset to them. That does not make them any less human that we are. The capacity of atrocity exists because of our humanity, not despite it. The French and Germans were taught to regard each other as nonhuman during W.W.I. Likewise the Americans and Japanese in W.W.II. The justification of murderous ethnic cleansing always involves the characterization of victims as non-human. Now with labels of "terrorist" and the Taliban's labels of "infidel" and "invader" we are each doing it again with no better reason. This attitude does not win wars, but it makes them much worse for those involved.

I feel sorry for victims, not respectful (with the exception of those who brought down the fourth plane). Getting killed is the easiest thing in the world as it is entirely passive. Putting oneself in danger for his cause, on the other hand, is worthy of respect. I do not know what your background is, but if you are a soldier (I use the term generically), you might want to keep in mind that your enemy is saying the same kinds of thinks about you and with one notable exception. You're in his country. Bin Laden made war on America for one day. We have made war on Afghanistan (and it really is "on Afghanistan&quot for ten years.

[unionworks]

135. Okinawa Chuck

Chuckie and I grew up together. I moved into the neighborhood about 1967...we. swapped 45 rpm records and 33 1/3 lps... Chicago Transit Authority for the "Easy Rider" soundtrack... Chuck was a couple years older than me and a gifted gymnast. Like his father, a ww2 vet, he joined the USMC. They sent him to Okinawa where he studied karate under real Okinawan teachers, and then to Vienam. When he came back, he was wearing a denim cutoff with the globe and anchor patch sewed on the back. He was taking bars apart singlehandedly. He once disarmed and handcuffed two cops who triedd to arrest him. At this time, noone had even heard of ptsd yet, so they locked him in a mental hospital for the criminally insane for 90 days. Shortly after his release, I ran into him and he apologized for kicking my ass during a drunken rampage. Within the week he was dead, got into a high speed chase with the state cops and rolled his 66 Catalina. Semper Fi, Chuck. Thank you for standing on that wall, and promising us "Nothing will happen to you. Not on my watch".