Prosecutors say Ohio shooter's friend bought him armor

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Updated 1:05 pm CDT, Monday, August 12, 2019

DAYTON, Ohio (AP) — A friend of the Dayton gunman who killed nine people told federal agents he bought him body armor, a gun accessory and a 100-round magazine earlier this year, according to a court document unsealed Monday.

The charging document says Ethan Kollie bought the items for Connor Betts and kept them at his apartment so his friend's parents would not find them.

Prosecutors on Monday unsealed a charge against Kollie that accused him of lying about not using marijuana on federal firearms forms in the purchase of a pistol that was not used in the shooting.



Read more: https://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Friend-of-Ohio-shooter-charged-with-lying-on-14298081.php

[Archae]

1. I hope this guy gets a life sentence.

[rollin74]

15. for lying about using marijuana???

I’d be shocked if he gets more than a few months sentence, if anything

[totodeinhere]

20. I agree. Possession of small amounts of marijuana should be legalized on the federal level.

There should be sensible controls and regulations but that's it. And I'm happy to see several of our presidential candidates taking this position to either legalize it or decriminalize it.

[Archae]

21. No. Accessory to murder.

"DAYTON, Ohio (AP) — A friend of the Dayton gunman who killed nine people told federal agents he bought him body armor, a gun accessory and a 100-round magazine earlier this year, according to a court document unsealed Monday."

"The charging document says Ethan Kollie bought the items for Connor Betts and kept them at his apartment so his friend's parents would not find them."

[totodeinhere]

22. They would have to prove that he knew the intentions of the shooter.

Purchasing those items is not illegal although it probably should be.

[rollin74]

23. he hasn't been charged with anything except

lying about marijuana use

authorities are saying that there is no indication that he knew that Betts was planning a criminal act

the charges and prison sentence you’re hoping for seem unlikely at best

[dawg day]

26. I wonder if it's illegal to buy ammunition for someone else?

Jesus, these nasty guys are miserable creatures-- he was afraid his parents would find the ammunition? And this friend thought it was a good idea to help him create his little armory?

[sarisataka]

24. He is facing 15 years nt

[Massacure]

38. He won't get that though

https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2018-guidelines-manual-annotated

Both charges look like they are an offense level of 12 on a 43 point scale. Assuming he has no criminal history, he is basically looking at 10-16 months of imprisonment for each charge, though the court may substitute up to half of it with supervised release. One other thing to note is that all sentences imposed at the same time generally run concurrently by default.

[bucolic_frolic]

2. "Hey, dude!"

"Let's keep our weapons of mass murder (WMM) away from mom and dad, ok?"

Where DO we find such upstanding citizens?

[Archae]

3. Trump rallies.

[oldsoftie]

11. Aparently not THIS particular one.

[EarnestPutz]

4. "Lying about not using marijuana on federal firearms forms"? Does the NRA....

....know about this? They "protect" everyone's right to buy a gun (convicted felons, mentally ill, domestic abusers), tell me they aren't actively trying to do away with this federal form and preserve the rights of stoners everywhere.

[melm00se]

6. all of the ones you

talk about (convicted felons, mentally ill, domestic abusers) may already be prohibited from buying a gun and yes, marijuana use is disqualifies a prospective gun buyer.

here is a copy of the actual form:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

questions 11 and 12 cover this.

[EarnestPutz]

7. I think you miss my point.

[oldsoftie]

12. I cant believe they havent. I'll have to mention to my friends who think red flag laws are illegal.

Something else even most REPUBLICANS support

[maxsolomon]

5. Are they contending he knew that his buddy was going to use those items in a Rampage Shooting?

Because other than smoking weed (nearly everyone who buys a gun is guilty of lying about that ridiculous restriction), I'm not sure any of those purchases were illegal.

[samir.g]

8. I'll take any restriction I can get to keep guns off the street

weed or whatever

[DeminPennswoods]

18. CNN just reported that the feds do not believe

the friend had any knowledge Betts was planning a mass shooting. The friend must be pretty oblivious not to have asked Betts why he needed this stuff or why he wanted to hide it from his parents.

[LisaL]

34. Exactly. Betts is an adult, why did he need to hide the armor and ammunition from his parents?

Friend never wondered why an adult male is hiding these things from his parents?

[BumRushDaShow]

9. Straw purchaser.

Why am I not surprised?

[metalbot]

13. Not a straw purchase

He isn't being accused of buying a firearm and representing himself as the purchaser. He's being charged with lying about drug use for his own firearm purchases, not for the non-firearm equipment that he purchased for his friend.

[BumRushDaShow]

14. The admission of buying and keeping the items to "hide them" from the perp's parents

is a "straw purchase". The bullshit about the marijuana seems to have been a quick way of finding some technicality to charge him with something.

[Jedi Guy]

16. Except the straw purchase rules may not apply to those items since they're not guns.

From what I could find in a quick Google search, it says any adult in Ohio can purchase and use a bulletproof vest (which, to be sure, isn't the only kind of body armor out there) unless they have a felony record. So there are clearly restrictions, but if the actual law criminalizing straw purchases doesn't mention body armor, they probably can't charge him for it. And since Betts didn't have a felony record, would they be able to charge him for a straw purchase even if the law does allow for body armor purchases? The receiver was not a prohibited person under the law.

Also, according to Giffords Law Center, Ohio does not prohibit the transfer or possession of large capacity magazines. That being the case, it's probable that gun accessories also aren't prohibited for transfer/possession, unless they're illegal in and of themselves (like perhaps suppressors or bump stocks).

Granted, this is hardly exhaustive research on my part, but it seems the items in question may not be considered straw purchases under the law. That being the case, they may only be able to nail him for the lie on the form regarding pot use.

If they can prove he knew or should have known that Betts was planning a rampage, they may be able to get him as an accessory to multiple counts of murder, though, to say nothing of all the people who were injured.

[BumRushDaShow]

19. These are the links you are referencing (from Gabby Gifford's site)

From the Gifford's Law Center -

Ammunition Regulation in Ohio - h ttps://lawcenter.giffords.org/ammunition-regulation-in-ohio/

Ammunition Regulation - h ttps://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/ammunition-regulation/#federal

(DU's code restrictions in the message box wants to take Gabby Gifford's last name that is part of the above URLs and tries to make an image out of it, so I added a space in the URLs to stop that from happening)

The issue seems to be whether someone is purchasing for someone else who might not be permitted to purchase those items themselves (where using the term "straw purchase" generically, would be like someone buying alcohol for a minor, i.e., buying for someone prohibited from possessing the items).

And in this case, I doubt Kollie knew about what was going to happen and probably just did the buy "as a favor" (the question being then whether Betts paid Kollie for the items and if not, then whether they could be considered a "gift" ).

[dawg day]

27. What did he think this guy was going to do with 100 rounds?

He didn't have to know the exact plans to be aware that this purchase wasn't a good idea.

[BumRushDaShow]

29. I hate to say but I wouldn't be surprised if he assumed it was going to be

"for show". Do a mirror selfie with one of those attached to your weapon, upload the pic on nonsense like Instagram or SnapChat and then you can (think you) look "cool" (to others).

Many of these types of gun owners apparently like to "hoard" ammunition, for whatever reason. They'll never use even a fraction of it.

[LisaL]

35. Then why would Betts want to hide it from his parents?

[BumRushDaShow]

36. Many young people "hide stuff" from "their parents".

He and his sister were still living at home and he may have been "warned" about dos and don'ts while living there.

[Sapient Donkey]

41. He lived at his parent's house, right?

I would assume it was a their house and their rules sort of thing, and he knew they would not want weapons in their house.

[sarisataka]

25. Correct

Straw purchase only applies to buying a firearm, not any accessories

[BumRushDaShow]

30. Ammunition is not an "accessory". It's what comes out of a weapon.

And if someone thinks a "100-round magazine" is an "accessory", then the shark has really been jumped.

Depending on the state, there may be strict regulations on ammunition - h ttps://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/ammunition-regulation/

(remove the space between the "h" and the "t" in the above link to get there - had to include it that way so Gifford's name in the URL would not try to display as a graphic in this message box)

[sarisataka]

31. I am quite familiar with what ammunition is

and removable magazines are classed as "accessories" as they are separate items from the gun itself. If you go to any sporting goods store, like Dick's, that sells guns you will find magazines under gun or shooting accessories. https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/c/hunting-gear-supplies

They do not come pre-loaded, the ammunition must be purchased separately so discussing buying a magazine and ammunition is two separate topics. It is not illegal to buy ammunition for someone who is not disqualified from firearms ownership in the vast majority of the states. One, maybe two states it would be illegal to buy ammo for another person.

[BumRushDaShow]

37. I provided a link in the post you replied to

The issue in this case was not only the legality of the purchase by someone considered (and later admitted to be) "prohibited" but then a transfer to someone else who could also have been considered "prohibited".

Here is a link to the DOJ report - https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdoh/pr/friend-dayton-mass-shooter-charged-illegally-purchasing-and-possessing-firearms

What needs to be clarified is that since the weapon was "assembled" with the various parts and other items on 2 different dates at Kollie's apartment, this may have been when ammunition that had also been purchased (the "who" having made that particular purchase needing to be revealed), may have been loaded into the magazine at that location - i.e., the reports have been that none of these items were lying around Betts' house because they were being "hidden" from Betts' parents at Kollie's place.

[sarisataka]

39. I did follow that link

and that particular page had nothing about Ohio ammunition laws. I did locate a different page on the site:

Ohio does not:

• Require a license for the sale of ammunition;

• Require sellers of ammunition to maintain a record of the purchasers;

• Prohibit persons who are ineligible to possess firearms under state law from possessing ammunition, although the federal ammunition purchaser prohibitions apply;

• Prohibit armor-piercing ammunition, although the federal prohibition on certain kinds of armor-piercing ammunition applies; or

• Otherwise regulate ammunition.

h ttps://lawcenter.giffords.org/ammunition-regulation-in-ohio/
(odd that space is needed)

Now if he also purchased the ammunition and gave it to the eventual shooter that would be a violation of Federal law. Federal law prohibits possession of both guns and ammunition by users of controlled substances. Since the accused admitted using drugs with the shooter that could eventually be tacked on as additional charges if he did indeed buy the ammo. That however may be difficult to prove and they will settle for just the current charges.
{If that was your original point I misunderstood you but am in agreement about those potential charges}

[BumRushDaShow]

40. Yes that is my argument

and the need for the space in the link is because of the Giffords name in the URL, which obviously includes something that has the same name as the image format "Gif". I.e., DU tries to render the "lawcenter.gif" portion of the full URL as an image with the rest ("fords.org/ammunition-regulation-in-ohio/" ) tacked on next to it! That is how DU's coding allows for direct display of images with just the URL of most image filetypes with no need to add any other tags around that link to the image like BBS code tags "[image]URL[/image]", etc.

[lark]

10. How about fucking accessory to murder.

Add that to the charges and one count for every person who died. Why couldn't that be done?

[Jedi Guy]

17. They'd have to prove that he knew or should have known Betts was planning a rampage.

At least, that's my understanding of how it works, and I'm not a lawyer, so if a lawyer wants to chime in, feel free. Proving knowledge can be a high bar to get over, though in this case it should be pretty easy to prove that a reasonable person should have suspected that some bad shit was in the offing, given the items in question.

One doesn't buy high-capacity magazines and body armor to go duck hunting, after all. The ducks seldom shoot back.

[patphil]

32. My daughter is a lawyer.

She says that since a 100 round magazine and body armor are not illegal in Ohio, the friend would have no legal jeopardy unless he specifically knew Betts was planning to commit a crime using these items.
Obviously the friend should have had the sense to realize the possibility, given the epidemic of gun violence in this country and either refused to hold the items, or tipped off the police to a possible situation with Betts.
But, he was not required to do this unless he strongly suspected Betts was going to shoot some people. This is very difficult to prove.
It's part of the incredibly bad gun laws in this country that allow this stuff.
As it is, these mass murders will continue until drastic action is taken by the states and federal government to ban assault weapons, body armor, and silencers.
And, get them off the streets.
I don't see that happening for a long, long time.

Patrick Phillips

[LisaL]

33. They are not charging him with this.

Presumably they came up with a charge that can be easily proven, since it appears the guy spilled the beans and admitted to using pot.

[MacKasey]

28. Duh

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what he wanted to do.