Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy concludes his death was a suicide by hanging
Source: Washington Post
NEW YORK -- Jeffrey Epstein's prison death has been ruled a suicide by hanging, the medical examiner's office said Friday. Epstein, 66, was found dead in his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York City on Aug. 10, touching off outrage and disbelief over how such a high-profile prisoner, known for socializing with powerful people including presidents Donald Trump and Bill Clinton, could have gone unwatched.
The Bureau of Prisons said Epstein had apparently killed himself, but that didn't squelch conspiracy theories about his death. Messages seeking comment were left for Epstein's lawyers. An office telephone number for Dr. Michael Baden, the pathologist hired by Epstein's representatives to observe the autopsy, rang unanswered.
Epstein, who was charged with sexually abusing numerous underage girls over several years, had been placed on suicide watch last month after he was found on his cell floor on July 23 with bruising on his neck. But multiple people familiar with operations at the jail say he was taken off the watch after about a week and put back in a high-security housing unit where he was less closely monitored, but still supposed to be checked on every 30 minutes.
Attorney General William Barr says officials have uncovered "serious irregularities" at the jail. The FBI and the Justice Department's inspector general are both investigating Epstein's death.
Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-women-sue-epstein-estate-saying-he-abused-them-as-adults/2019/08/16/0850afae-c04d-11e9-a8b0-7ed8a0d5dc5d_story.html
Original headline: Medical examiner rules Epstein death a suicide by hanging
Runningdawg
(4,527 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You should learn something about this woman you just smeared:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212385118
Runningdawg
(4,527 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)She is one of the highest appointed officials in a Democratic administration.
I know that DU has changed a bit, but that used to be the rule here.
PSPS
(13,628 posts)For example, it wasn't until Epstein killed himself that I discovered that DU is actually awash with medical experts, especially forensic ones. And, to top that off, they can perform medical examinations without seeing the person! It's true! I thought such things were possible only with the likes of Terri Schiavo but, here we are!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)We lost a lot of our experts in aviation and structural engineering, so someone had to take up the slack.
PJMcK
(22,065 posts)Dr. Sampson is an accomplished doctor. I trust her judgment.
Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)Same goes for dog catchers.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)(and there's the back of your t-shirt)
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Robert Oswald believed Lee did it until the day he died.
I used to be a huge conspiracy buff, read lots of books on the subject. I was also a gun nut. Still have lots of knowledge.
The very first time I visited the Sixth Floor Museum. I stood next to the window Oswald fired from.
The first thing that came into my mind was "Shit, Oswald did it. It was an incredibly easy shot. I am surprised he did not kill him with the first shot."
I realized all the conspiracy bullshit was just that.
Yes, LHO really did it with that POS Carcano.
And I am 62 years old. Watched the funeral on TV.
The most amazing thing to me after all these years is just how truly small Dealey Plaza is in reality. It looks so enormous on TV and in still photographs.
Kid Berwyn
(15,033 posts)They even contacted their assets in the media and academia to echo that line, labeling those who didnt conspiracy theorist.
Heres the memo:
CIA Document 1035-960
Concerning Criticism of the Warren Report
CIA Document #1035-960
RE: Concerning Criticism of the Warren Report
1. Our Concern. From the day of President Kennedy's assassination on, there has been speculation about the responsibility for his murder. Although this was stemmed for a time by the Warren Commission report, (which appeared at the end of September 1964), various writers have now had time to scan the Commission's published report and documents for new pretexts for questioning, and there has been a new wave of books and articles criticizing the Commission's findings. In most cases the critics have speculated as to the existence of some kind of conspiracy, and often they have implied that the Commission itself was involved. Presumably as a result of the increasing challenge to the Warren Commission's report, a public opinion poll recently indicated that 46% of the American public did not think that Oswald acted alone, while more than half of those polled thought that the Commission had left some questions unresolved. Doubtless polls abroad would show similar, or possibly more adverse results.
2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization. The members of the Warren Commission were naturally chosen for their integrity, experience and prominence. They represented both major parties, and they and their staff were deliberately drawn from all sections of the country. Just because of the standing of the Commissioners, efforts to impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society. Moreover, there seems to be an increasing tendency to hint that President Johnson himself, as the one person who might be said to have benefited, was in some way responsible for the assassination.
Innuendo of such seriousness affects not only the individual concerned, but also the whole reputation of the American government. Our organization itself is directly involved: among other facts, we contributed information to the investigation. Conspiracy theories have frequently thrown suspicion on our organization, for example by falsely alleging that Lee Harvey Oswald worked for us. The aim of this dispatch is to provide material countering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.
3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the assassination question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active (business) addresses are requested:
a. To discuss the publicity problem with (?) and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors), pointing out that the Warren Commission made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by Communist propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.
b. To employ propaganda assets to (negate) and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (I) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories. In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein's theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher (?) article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane's book is much less convincing that Epstein's and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.)
4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:
a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider. The assassination is sometimes compared (e.g., by Joachim Joesten and Bertrand Russell) with the Dreyfus case; however, unlike that case, the attack on the Warren Commission have produced no new evidence, no new culprits have been convincingly identified, and there is no agreement among the critics. (A better parallel, though an imperfect one, might be with the Reichstag fire of 1933, which some competent historians (Fritz Tobias, AJ.P. Taylor, D.C. Watt) now believe was set by Vander Lubbe on his own initiative, without acting for either Nazis or Communists; the Nazis tried to pin the blame on the Communists, but the latter have been more successful in convincing the world that the Nazis were to blame.)
b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent--and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) and less on ballistics, autopsy, and photographic evidence. A close examination of the Commission's records will usually show that the conflicting eyewitness accounts are quoted out of context, or were discarded by the Commission for good and sufficient reason.
c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc. Note that Robert Kennedy, Attorney General at the time and John F. Kennedy's brother, would be the last man to overlook or conceal any conspiracy. And as one reviewer pointed out, Congressman Gerald R. Ford would hardly have held his tongue for the sake of the Democratic administration, and Senator Russell would have had every political interest in exposing any misdeeds on the part of Chief Justice Warren. A conspirator moreover would hardly choose a location for a shooting where so much depended on conditions beyond his control: the route, the speed of the cars, the moving target, the risk that the assassin would be discovered. A group of wealthy conspirators could have arranged much more secure conditions.
d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other. Actually, the make-up of the Commission and its staff was an excellent safeguard against over-commitment to any one theory, or against the illicit transformation of probabilities into certainties.
e. Oswald would not have been any sensible person's choice for a co-conspirator. He was a "loner," mixed up, of questionable reliability and an unknown quantity to any professional intelligence service.
f. As to charges that the Commission's report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticisms.
g. Such vague accusations as that "more than ten people have died mysteriously" can always be explained in some natural way e.g.: the individuals concerned have for the most part died of natural causes; the Commission staff questioned 418 witnesses (the FBI interviewed far more people, conduction 25,000 interviews and re interviews), and in such a large group, a certain number of deaths are to be expected. (When Penn Jones, one of the originators of the "ten mysterious deaths" line, appeared on television, it emerged that two of the deaths on his list were from heart attacks, one from cancer, one was from a head-on collision on a bridge, and one occurred when a driver drifted into a bridge abutment.)
5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission's Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.
Source: http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html
Thats to keep people from knowing that the facts show the case of President Kennedys murder is open.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Do you believe that Russia was engaged in a full-on operation to spread fake news, rumors and conspiracy theories during the 2016 election?
Can you explain why foreign adversaries would be interested in spreading fake news, rumors and conspiracy theories?
Kid Berwyn
(15,033 posts)Cojoining crazy talk with the serious is a sign of disinformation. That, in part, was why Trumputins smears of Hillary Clinton were so effective in repressing the urban vote.
In the verbatim CIA memo above, the agency spelled out their interest in shutting down talk that a conspiracy was behind JFKs assassination. Why would that be? Many reasons, including the CIAs association with the Mafia to kill Castro - an operation that continued after JFK ordered it stopped.
BTW: That CIA disinformation campaign noted in the memo in itself was illegal, as CIA by law was not entitled to conduct operations domestically, specifically targeting the American people.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...
"In the verbatim CIA memo above, the agency spelled out their interest in shutting down talk that a conspiracy was behind JFKs assassination. Why would that be?"
For the answer to the highlighted question, see your first sentence.
Any number of government agencies have a legitimate interest in understanding the origins and spread of disinformation campaigns.
Kid Berwyn
(15,033 posts)Worked well to shut down discussion of the conspiracy behind JFKs assassination ever since.
Fortunately, it has not worked perfectly.
The Wielding Truth
(11,415 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Dr. Sampson, whom you are accusing, is the woman in the far right of this picture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Sampson
JudyM
(29,294 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I've posted her full bio in another thread, so that DUers can know more about this scientist whom they are going to be relentlessly attacking as a fraud.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212385118
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Since the focus was on the ME.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)With a little help from Sam.
The Wielding Truth
(11,415 posts)supplies and how did he get the opportunity and why wasn't there video of his cell 24/7? Why was he able to get off suicide watch?
Who made those decisions and why?
Even if he saw this as his only way out it doesn't seem logical that he wouldn't use his cultured swarmyness to bribe those in charge or use his connections again buy time until he could move to better quarters.
He was so slimy that even someone non political could have set up a hanging with an unsupervised contained pedophile.
Seems too perfect for those implicated to swim along without the hook attached.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)https://www.sbs.com.au/guide/article/2017/12/06/10-staggering-statistics-about-us-prison-system
12 people die each day in a US prison
According to the justice department, approximately a dozen inmates die behind bars each day, or roughly 4,400 per year. In state and federal prisons, most deaths are health-related the leading illnesses being cancer or heart disease. In local prisons, the top cause is suicide, making up a third of all deaths and usually occurring within the first month of incarceration. Tragically, more than 70 percent of those suicides eventuate before conviction.
Ponietz
(3,054 posts)And provide the means for him to kill himselfafter bail was denied, after a previous suicide attempt, without a court order or, even, a written motion from his attorneys? It wasnt a shift worker who gave that order.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Ponietz
(3,054 posts)Even if it isnt, what puzzles me is your unwillingness to ask the same question.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The medical examiner doesn't determine whether assisting suicide is a crime. They simply determine the cause of death.
Ponietz
(3,054 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)keep him silent then it could be looked at as suicide especially if they are powerful and well connected.
yardwork
(61,748 posts)The medical examiner has very good credentials and she examined the body.
cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)Mind you I'm not saying that's what happened here but it's still a possibility.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)bucolic_frolic
(43,443 posts)Or maybe an opportunity that was offered. Who knows.
Let suspicions be informed by facts and incongruities. Paranoia and doubt are not evidence.
Alex Jones and Newtown are not investigatory methods.
Chakaconcarne
(2,478 posts)Why they removed the suicide watch is the bigger question IMO.
With that intent, no one had to do anything but just make sure he was left to his own devices.....
kimbutgar
(21,240 posts)It is a coverup meant to silence someone who could expose fat donnie as a pedofilie
yardwork
(61,748 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,947 posts)Devil Child
(2,728 posts)Linda Ed
(493 posts)My view: If he knew what was good for him, he had to rule it was a suicide. Who's surprised? Let's check the video. Oops. Let's ask the guards. Oops. We already heard Barr give us the summary of his suicide the day of his death! Apparently, Barr knows more than the medical examiner and Mueller.
How do you break bones in your neck when there is nowhere in a cell in a secure housing unit to hang high enough to break bones? From kneeling with a sheet around your neck... right.
Autopsy points to possibility Epstein was strangled:
Jeffrey Epsteins former bodyguard floated his theory that his old boss probably had help with committing suicide while in federal custody, but was reluctant to talk at length.
"Somebody helped him to do that," former UFC fighter Igor Zinoviev, who was also Epsteins driver and trainer, told New York Magazine. When pressed why he believed Epstein had help, Zinoviev said, "Listen, you know, thats going a little too deep."
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/epsteins-bodyguard-believes-he-had-help-in-killing-himself
Ptah
(33,051 posts)You typed: "My view: If he knew what was good for him, he had to rule it was a suicide. "
Did the NY M.E. falsify her report?
Linda Ed
(493 posts)This was MY view,,,not that of the coroner
Ptah
(33,051 posts)Do you know the answer to that?
Jeffrey Epsteins lawyers sound the alarm..Whether youre accepting this autopsy report as fact or not, suffice it to say that Epsteins camp is doing no such thing. Epsteins lawyers have announced that theyll conduct their own investigation into how Epstein died. This shouldnt come as a surprise, considering that theyve already hired a forensic investigator best known for his role in the OJ trial.
Old saying is,,two heads are better than one...
Ptah
(33,051 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,947 posts)Add sexism to your baseless conspiracy theory.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)That doesn't make sense
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,947 posts)Sometimes women do have important jobs...
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)Ever make a mistake VO?
underpants
(182,988 posts)Cadfael
(1,301 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)out of the realm of possibility that it was staged well enough to hide it from the M.E. as the M.E. can only base their conclusion on the cause of death on the evidence at hand.
Chemisse
(30,821 posts)I hope they release a lot of details.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)
"Fractures of the hyoid bone in suicide hangings are rare and when you further keep in mind this was not a suicide hanging from stepping off a high ladder," said Wecht.
According to reports, Epstein had tied a bed-sheet to the bunk and kneeled on the ground and then leaned forward to kill himself.
That maneuver, Wecht said, is not conducive to breaking bones.
"In majority of those you don't see fractures because there is no great amount of force," said Wecht. "It's basic physics."
treestar
(82,383 posts)Why would leaning forward produce enough force to kill the person? Morbidly, I need a diagram or something. Seems like the body's will to live would make you get up.
Jedi Guy
(3,283 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 17, 2019, 07:05 PM - Edit history (1)
But on the flip side, David Carridine accidentally killed himself via auto-erotic asphyxiation. As I recall, he was found hanging from a doorknob in his suite. That being the case, it seems like all he really had to do was get his feet under himself and lift himself up enough to remove the tension from the noose so he could take it off.
I don't think Epstein was murdered, but there are definitely some questions that need to be answered. In particular, why did the prison psych personnel acquiesce to taking him off suicide watch so quickly? I realize Epstein's attorneys requested it, but the prison was under no obligation to do as they asked, and could have pushed back if they had doubts about Epstein's stability.
The other questions revolve around why Epstein had no cellmate, and what was up with the guards being so lax in keeping an eye on him. He wasn't on suicide watch any longer, 'tis true, but given that he'd made an attempt recently (and the high profile nature of Epstein himself), if I were calling the shots there, I'd have made damn sure they were watching him more closely.
ripcord
(5,553 posts)It must be a horrible thing when the facts don't fit your preconceived theories.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Given what he knew.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Historically, everyone has "known" that "Jews are poisoning the wells", "Gypsies are kidnapping the children", "Satan worshippers are engaged in ritual abuse of children", etc.. There is always a secret dark cabal organized for the purpose of doing something wicked. It is a common mass psychological phenomenon that has made its way into movies like the Omen, Rosemary's Baby, etc.. We saw it with the McMartin preschool case, the "Satanic panic" of the 1980's, the "Franklin Savings and Loan Scandal" (once also popular at DU before the admins started tombstoning people over it), and now it is the Epstein thing.
Epstein was indicted for a very consistent pattern of behavior stretching back over a number of years, in which he and a network of close female associates would recruit girls for his "massages" and, in turn, engage some of those girls to recruit others. There is nothing in his indictment in NY or the previous one in Florida which involved him acting as a pimp to shop these girls around to other men.
Precisely one of the dozens of living, identifiable victims claims that she was shopped around to Prince Andrew, George Mitchell, Dershowitz and one or two other people whose names escape me at the moment. Those allegations remain unproven. Additionally, there is the "Katie Johnson" story which originated with a Jerry Springer producer and a Ted Cruz supporter during the 2016 GOP primaries and took on a life of its own.
Other than Giuffre and the almost surely fictional "Katie Johnson", the assertion that Epstein was providing these girls to other people is fueled by nothing other than the fact that as a wealthy and influential person, Epstein had a lot of associations with other wealthy and influential people. That is why both left and right can be dead certain that there was a wide ranging pedophilia ring - with the only difference being the roster of who might be involved.
Certainly what the victims collectively know is equal to what Epstein knew. And yet, with the exception of Giuffre, they are all going after Epstein's estate to the exclusion of any other defendants.
Could you, or anyone, explain why none of the Epstein victims aside from Giuffre are suing the other members of this supposed ring? Are the victims lawyers - including Gloria Allred - simply too stupid to sue all of the actual defendants?
Turbineguy
(37,392 posts)on the Grassy Knoll.
Wolf Frankula
(3,604 posts)Barr visited him. I'm sure he was told, "You don't have to worry about your family and friends if you 'do the right thing.' Nobody will hurt them, they'll be taken care of if you take care of your problem."
Wolf
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)or, for that matter, his "friends".
I realize you may not know a whole lot about Epstein, but "family and friends" were probably the only two things he did not have in abundance.
Jose Garcia
(2,611 posts)Wolf Frankula
(3,604 posts)She said it was about two weeks. Teresa has another reason. Epstein was looking at closely (at his age) life in prison. He would have to be kept is solitaire to keep him alive. I presume you know the usual fate of child molesters among the genpop in prison. He couldn't bear that. He killed himself.
Wolf
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)sakabatou
(42,198 posts)roamer65
(36,748 posts)Sorry, but suicides can be faked.
Not buying the suicide shit.
Ptah
(33,051 posts)JustFiveMoreMinutes
(2,133 posts)Perhaps I have 'jail cells' pictured incorrectly in my mind... so enlighten my ignorance please (and if you're just going to say 'Google It'.. please move on....
BumRushDaShow
(129,882 posts)but if there is some kind of shower head in the cell, then voila. Alternately if the bed/cot is not bolted to the floor, then simply standing it upright at a narrow angle against a wall (enough so it doesn't tip over and or wedging it upright with a table/chair or whatever may have been in the room) and then tying whatever at the top and sliding down the bed to the floor.
I hate to say but I recall all the press attention surrounding what happened with David Carradine and his death by asphyxiation where it was reported that he was found hanging from a hanger rack affixed near the top of a hotel room's closet door (and some stories including published photos ).
EX500rider
(10,885 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,882 posts)-Robin Williams (from a closet door).
VarryOn
(2,343 posts)He hanged himself. I dont doubt a lot of people wanted his ass dead. The most conspiratorial scheme that I could be persuaded to accept is guards were bribed to look the other way knowing hed commit suicide.
I hope every sorry soul that facilitated or participated in using all those girls gets gets just desserts
tymorial
(3,433 posts)What is the difference between accusing the medical examiner as being part of a right wing conspiracy and all of the preposterous qanon and pizzagate nonsense from the right? Let me answer that question. Absolutely nothing. Both are created from Conspiracy Theory without any evidence. Both fit within a nice little neat narrative. Both are promoted as a means to obtain political leverage.
Now I recognize that accusations of both siderism is quickly and routinely shut down here DU. Please pay attention because I do not care
Drawing conclusions without evidence and based entirely upon supposition is quite common and has very little to do with politics. I recognize that Epstein's death extremely convenient many many questions. That doesnt mean everyone is in on it. That doesnt mean the medical examiner is a MAGA plant.
Until we have more information I suggest that everyone takes a f****** chill pill and wait for more information to follow. It's entirely possible that Epstein did kill himself but circumstances were engineered to allow this to happen. The medical examiner's job is not to look for conspiracy. It's also possible that Epstein was able to take advantage of a lack of supervision and killed himself. Again we need more information.
The conspiracy theory is tiresome. Move on unless you have evidence or perhaps find an alternative venue which shares the practice of reactionary outrage without actual evidence.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)As if someone simply wanted people to be outraged.
treestar
(82,383 posts)it is being implied merely if the person states that they still don't believe it is suicide.
The ME report could convince them, but it's not around. Or whatever happened could be beyond the ME's purview. It's a legal conclusion/medical conclusion.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)Other than for appearances sake.
amywalk
(254 posts)they can rule it was a hanging, but how can they prove there was no one else in the cell to help precipitate the act of hanging, but especially in the death of a high profile inmate who could put away for life some very, very important people in our country?