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BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:54 AM Aug 2021

New Zealand is to begin a three-day lockdown after a single case is reported.

Source: New York Times



A line outside a supermarket in Auckland, New Zealand, on Tuesday.Credit...Jason Oxenham/New Zealand Herald, via Associated Press

New Zealand will begin a three-day nationwide lockdown after reporting its first coronavirus case in six months, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said Tuesday. The snap lockdown, which starts at 11:59 p.m. local time, was set off by the discovery of an infection in Auckland, New Zealand’s most populous city, that is believed to be the country’s first case of the more contagious Delta variant outside its strict quarantine system. Auckland and the nearby Coromandel Peninsula, which the infected person recently visited, will be under a longer, seven-day lockdown.

Under the lockdown rules, New Zealand’s toughest, residents must stay at home and all schools, public facilities and nonessential businesses are closed. Ahead of Ms. Ardern’s announcement, in scenes reminiscent of the earliest days of the pandemic, New Zealanders ransacked supermarkets, leaving toilet paper aisles bare. Roads out of Auckland were packed as people fled the city for holiday homes in other parts of the country.

“I want to assure New Zealand that we have planned for this eventuality and that we will now be putting in place that plan to contain and stamp out Covid-19 once again,” Ms. Ardern said at a news conference. “Going hard and early has worked for us before,” she added. It is not yet known how the individual, who was unvaccinated and does not have any link to the country’s quarantine facilities at the border, contracted the virus.

Ms. Ardern warned that if New Zealand failed to act swiftly, it could end up in the same situation as the Australian state of New South Wales, which is reporting hundreds of new cases each day, more than at any other time during the pandemic. A lockdown now in its eighth week in Sydney, where the Delta-driven outbreak began, was extended to the entire state on Saturday. “We are one of the last countries in the world to have the Delta variant in our community,” Ms. Ardern said. “This has given us the chance to learn from others.”

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/world/australia/new-zealand-lockdown.html

52 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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New Zealand is to begin a three-day lockdown after a single case is reported. (Original Post) BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 OP
PM Ardern is known for acting swiftly, we'll remember her swift action on automatic weapons Rhiannon12866 Aug 2021 #1
We have freedumbs. LisaL Aug 2021 #2
Yeah, lockdowns are pretty much verboten here now BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #3
Well, the initial restrictions imposed by the governor here in New York did make a difference Rhiannon12866 Aug 2021 #4
Yeah I remember a year ago BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #5
You're right, I do remember that. And, of course, he gave regular Covid briefings Rhiannon12866 Aug 2021 #9
I watched his literal 7-days-a-week pressers for almost a year straight BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #12
Americans are just too ignorant for this complete lockdown to work here Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #6
The population of NZ is about 4.9 million BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #8
So, you claim countries with large land masses and populations can Not have successfull lockdowns? Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #16
"That is your argument?" BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #20
Well, I disagree because just one person does not a pandemic make. Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #27
One person who is loaded with virus BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #34
Well, that is good you have a consistent theory that does not contradict itself. Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #42
I suggest you do your own research BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #44
So New Zealanders value human life more than the economy? mountain grammy Aug 2021 #7
They are a "small" country in comparison, and more "controllable" BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #10
It is different, New Zealand has fewer religious people. Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #18
New Zealand is also influenced strongly by Maori/Polynesian culture meadowlander Aug 2021 #37
So, true Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #41
We never had anything remotely close to a lockdown here MichMan Aug 2021 #11
Reading is fundamental BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #13
I read it. Doesn't mean anything until you know what is considered essential MichMan Aug 2021 #15
It's going to always vary BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #17
I bet if the federal government paid people, there could be a successful lockdown Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #21
"$10 to $20 a day, for every day you stay home. It wouldn't take much." BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #23
I was in the Navy for over 20 years...so yeah, I have worked for the federal government Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #24
"Yeah, it would be a lot of work but" BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #30
You are really not dealing with reality well. Farmer-Rick Aug 2021 #40
Ahh... the insults to dismiss the argument BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #43
At level 4 in New Zealand you can only leave your house to meadowlander Aug 2021 #36
Gas stations, trucking companies, pharmacies and grocery stores are pretty essential. cstanleytech Aug 2021 #26
How are people expected to get to the marijuana dispensary without gas? MichMan Aug 2021 #28
True they do not "need" wax for their cars but they do "need" auto parts to repair said cars cstanleytech Aug 2021 #29
Prime Minister Ardern and her government are doing an incredible job managing the pandemic. CottonBear Aug 2021 #14
Wow TheFarseer Aug 2021 #19
Meanwhile, American school children have to take one for the team IronLionZion Aug 2021 #22
Children have never really mattered to Republican politicians except as a political tool. cstanleytech Aug 2021 #31
Pro-Life! All Lives Matter!1!!1! IronLionZion Aug 2021 #32
More like Pro-Forced Birth followed by Pro-We Don't Honestly Care So Fuck Off And Die Already!!! cstanleytech Aug 2021 #33
Should it not be 2 weeks as by then anyone with it should have at least some symptoms cstanleytech Aug 2021 #25
They need three days to do genome sequencing to try to link it to the border meadowlander Aug 2021 #35
Five cases now and confirmed Delta. meadowlander Aug 2021 #38
Oooo... a NZ person BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #39
K&R! Tom Yossarian Joad Aug 2021 #45
Per a post above by meadowlander BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #46
Mass arrests at anti-lockdown protests meadowlander Aug 2021 #47
From your link --here is one of the issues that we have here as well BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #49
There are some anti-vaxers but I think it's a slightly different issue here. meadowlander Aug 2021 #51
Okay thanks for the clarification BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #52
Why does COVID always cause 'runs' on toilet paper? DemocraticPatriot Aug 2021 #48
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy BumRushDaShow Aug 2021 #50

Rhiannon12866

(205,290 posts)
1. PM Ardern is known for acting swiftly, we'll remember her swift action on automatic weapons
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:37 AM
Aug 2021

Somehow, I don't think this kind of lockdown would necessarily work here, but if there had been any kind of "swift action" at a national level when the pandemic first hit here - instead of suggesting it would "just go away" - we wouldn't have the national emergency - or the horrific death toll - we have now.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
3. Yeah, lockdowns are pretty much verboten here now
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:49 AM
Aug 2021

I think what we are stuck with are other types of mitigations and restrictions.

The U.S. is too large a geographic entity and population to ever go to "zero" cases like NZ is claiming they had, so all we can do is just keep the levels "low" at some baseline R0, that keeps the spread to a minimum.

We certainly have seen what works to drop the numbers down and its a matter of calibrating that to keep society functioning but change behaviors when engaging in certain activities.

Rhiannon12866

(205,290 posts)
4. Well, the initial restrictions imposed by the governor here in New York did make a difference
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:08 AM
Aug 2021

When the pandemic first hit the East Coast. And we sure know what's happened in other states where the governors refuse to mandate any restrictions at all no matter how dire the situation has become. And now that everything's "opened up," no more quarantine in New York and the mask mandate only applies to the unvaccinated, not to mention it's now "the honor system, " just in time for both the more transmissible Delta variant and the advent of "tourist season" in these parts (Lake George), I cringe to imagine the possible outbreaks in a few weeks. I drove up north yesterday through Lake George Village and the streets are packed like any other summer - with very few masks in sight. We could use a few more restrictions.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
5. Yeah I remember a year ago
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:35 AM
Aug 2021

when Cuomo was using the analogy of opening a "valve" as a way to reduce mitigation until a hotspot was identified. During low periods, you could open the valve a bit and see where things were, then open it some more. But if there was a sudden spike, then the valve was either turned back a notch or two or closed completely.

But the vehement push to "fully open" RIGHT NOW!!!111!!!1! just torpedoed any cautious approaches.

At least around here, the businesses are now actually engaging to enforce any type of mitigation strategies that are recommended or mandated, so they can realistically remain in business. It really is to their benefit to not cavalierly dismiss the pandemic.

Rhiannon12866

(205,290 posts)
9. You're right, I do remember that. And, of course, he gave regular Covid briefings
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:03 AM
Aug 2021

In Mary Trump's book, she referred to Governor Cuomo as the national leader on the Covid response, as opposed to her uncle who said it would "just go away" (by Easter - and everyone should go to church) or to drink bleach or take malaria medicine.

And that's the thing! Just in time for the Delta variant sweeping the country, everything's suddenly open with a vengeance, and the tourists are sure back. And they came from all over. I notice the license plates and I've seen Florida (quite a few!), South Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, North Carolina, Alabama, Utah(!) - as well as the more common Vermont, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Last summer everything was closed and anyone from out-of-state had to quarantine - and anytime you'd go to the doctor or dentist, the first think they'd ask is if you'd left the state.

As for businesses, masks were required everywhere, and it was enforced. These days, the only masks I see are me and a few employees. No more one-way aisles in stores and a lot of them have gotten rid of the six-foot distancing lines at checkouts. As far as anyone here's concerned, Covid was over as of July.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
12. I watched his literal 7-days-a-week pressers for almost a year straight
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:23 AM
Aug 2021

And agree that this year is going to be a nightmare, although perhaps in a mutated sense because despite all the unvaccinated, I would say that at least about 1/2 of the U.S. is fully vaccinated. And even with the breakthroughs, the impact won't be as severe. However the unvaccinated states are suffering as bad as NY did a year ago - basically being in the same situation of no vaccine. But it's perhaps worse there because of how fast this variant spreads and reproduced compared to the original Wuhan and European variants. To the point where I have been reading the stories of people being hospitalized literally within a couple days of exposure versus maybe able to go about a week or two before finally needing to be hospitalized.

I had to go out to the post office, pharmacy, and supermarket yesterday morning (and yes the 1-way aisles have disappeared here now too) and I was double-masked. Fortunately (since that hour of the day is mostly retirees and seniors) people I encountered were all masked-up (including the supermarket checkers and stockers, who were the first to whip off the masks back in May and have thankfully gone back to wearing them again).

It's gonna be a bad fall with the schools.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
6. Americans are just too ignorant for this complete lockdown to work here
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:36 AM
Aug 2021

A lot of Americans still think praying to a god is of some value. They think their thoughts will affect the physical world especially if some magical man in the sky is involved. This is what religion has brought us.

Many of them refuse to believe their own eyes when the evidence of global warming is all around them and they think vaccinations are an experiment on our children. They believe in Big Foot, UFOs, alien abductions, and ghosts.

They are easily manipulated by propaganda and advertisement. They buy any wacked out idea that comes down the road, flat earth, Trump won the election, racism is good and Ayn Rand pathetic thought experiment was truth.

Americans are so full of magical thinking and half baked ideas, that yeah... a lockdown here in the US won't work because they think you can just "think" the pandemic away.

That's the bottom line.....a lockdown will never work in America because a big chunk thinks if they just believe hard enough the pandemic will go away.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
8. The population of NZ is about 4.9 million
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:54 AM
Aug 2021

and runs somewhere between the population of Los Angeles (city) and Cook County, IL (home to Chicago), and is this size geographically, compared to the U.S. -



And even then, the population is concentrated along the coastal areas -

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/500x716/

(edit to add updated pop. density from here - https://www.forbes.com/sites/marshallshepherd/2020/08/10/how-geography-helped-new-zealand-beat-coronavirus/?sh=554fca84215b and here - https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/subnational-population-estimates-at-30-june-2018-provisional)

So the U.S. has and can do it on their scale. But doing it nationwide here is what is the impossibility, absent a sci-fi fantasy military-imposed enforcement. And with the 2nd Amendment in full force, it ain't happening.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
16. So, you claim countries with large land masses and populations can Not have successfull lockdowns?
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:50 AM
Aug 2021

That is your argument?

How do you know? What evidence do you have? Yeah, the US is large and is only exceeded in size and population by China and India both of which are poorer based on GDP than the US.

But just because it wasn't done, doesn't mean it couldn't be done. The most you can say is that you don't know if it could or couldn't be done. People use to believe all swans were white until they found a black one.

My evidence that America's failure to have a successful lockdown is due to ignorance is to point out all the ignorance of common Americans. And there is ample evidence where ignorance has led to dangerous and deadly results...black plague, the Titanic, the Irish famine, religions encouraging people to kill themselves in mass suicide events, the witch trials and the
Inquisition, just to name a few.

And the US is ranked 1st in the world in number of religious congregations and members in religious organizations. On the other hand, New Zealand is ranked 14th and 15th. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/New-Zealand/United-States/Religion

I stand by my argument, that it is due to ignorance not size, that the US has and will fail to have a successful lockdown.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
20. "That is your argument?"
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:26 AM
Aug 2021

My "argument" is that in an equivalent per capita population and geographic area, it can be done. But trying to do it nationally would require enforcement resources that would obviously be unavailable across the expanse of this country, particularly if all you need is one infected "rural" dweller to infect people milling about in a market in a city.

When those countries do "lockdowns" they are also shutting down borders (whether between countries or within states/provinces, with checkpoints). We haven't done that between states and are only "directing" (without an ability to enforce it) that travelers "quarantine" when they come from a high infection rate state to another state, which is not happening or is enforceable.

If you look at the oft-referenced 1918 pandemic, you see what the result is, and here in Philadelphia, we were probably impacted the most from that - https://microbialmenagerie.com/social-distancing-1918-influenza-coronavirus-covid-19/ (article based on research from here - https://www.pnas.org/content/104/18/7582). In this study, you can see the effects of "localized" enforced mitigation vs not doing such.

And since this Delta variant is now more virulent and spreadable then the virus that caused the 1918 pandemic (which was apparently not the case with the earlier COVID-19 variants) - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/delta-cdc-warns-variant-is-as-contagious-as-chickenpox-may-make-people-sicker.html then it makes it harder to deal with.

Your argument is to blame "religion" for all the ills of the world and that is just ridiculous. You have CT purveyors who associate vaccines and masking to "government control", which has no religious context at all, and it is something that is actually universal around the world.

The links I had provided in the post you replied to showed that New Zealanders protested the lockdowns, but again, its easier to enforce when you are only dealing with concentrated areas of impact that actually have the types of facilities that can promote spread. And in their case and other countries, they do these lockdowns for short, designated periods of time - a few days or a few weeks at most.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
27. Well, I disagree because just one person does not a pandemic make.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 12:17 PM
Aug 2021

The virus needs large groups to infect in order to stay active. And if this country had the political will they could easily organize a lockdown to stop the spread just like the federal government organizes wars and tracks your tax returns.

But thanks for clarifying your position.

Yeah, religion really does, and did, cause a lot of human ills, obviously not all.

Religion conditions people to believe in fact free, evidence-free ideas. So much so that many a religious leader have organized mass suicides. Begging a magical being in the sky is not far from thinking if you don't acknowledge a pandemic, you wont get ill. Or praying is not far from believing all the global warming events around you are due to that magical being and really what can you do against a magical being? Shrug and go on about your life?

Actually a small handful of people of color are worried about the federal government experimenting on them, not so much worried about government control. But that does not stop a successful lockdown.

But thanks for the links and clarification...

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
34. One person who is loaded with virus
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 01:25 PM
Aug 2021

in the middle of a crowd will set the place on viral fire.

And I'm not disagreeing about the religious nuts, but as much press as they get, they are by far not any significant percentage of the world population. It just seems that way because they are essentially a "man bites dog" story that gets magnified all over the news and social media because it is freaky.

You have a set of people who truly are afraid of needles - whether it is an extreme "real" (psychological) fear like "trypanophobia" or they have issues with the uncomfortableness of it, probably based on past injection experiences that may have not gone well.

But there were quite a few out there who gave up because they worked shift work and/or multiple jobs, and the shots were only being given during certain times when they couldn't get to the far flung facilities in time to get the shot. Add to that those whose jackass employers refused to give them time off to take care of it or those who worried about "side effects" that would lay them up for a few days (and they would lose pay not being there), then you get a wider perspective of issues beyond "religion".

If anything, the ones who should be excoriated are the first responders like police, fire, and EMS techs, many of whom have also refused to get vaccinated and not for any religious reason (which is why you are now seeing many cities, including mine, doing mandates for city employees).

In one respect, the old adage about "the doctor being the worst patient" applies to some of those folks, including many healthcare workers who have also refused the vaccine. The "little bit of knowledge" has made them a bit more paranoid than normal.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
42. Well, that is good you have a consistent theory that does not contradict itself.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 04:23 PM
Aug 2021

But you are still wrong. But thanks for the info. Send me any links you have.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
44. I suggest you do your own research
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 04:32 PM
Aug 2021

it's obvious you have no science background like I do, but that is not unexpected. You have actually gone into argument scope creep ignoring that you originally blamed everything, but notably this pandemic, on "religion", which is about as silly as your other arguments.

mountain grammy

(26,620 posts)
7. So New Zealanders value human life more than the economy?
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:49 AM
Aug 2021

What a concept. This is definitely what it means to be pro life!

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
10. They are a "small" country in comparison, and more "controllable"
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:12 AM
Aug 2021

and being a couple islands, they can isolate themselves a little easier, like Australia, Japan, and the UK (although the latter two were in for a rude awakening once travel on and off their islands commenced).

Just this past February, they had the same types of protestors that we have had, when the last lockdown had been implemented - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-anti-lockdown-protesters-gather-outside-pms-auckland-office/SNINQCXD7L3WKH6VMJRA4YQASA/

And almost a year ago, they went hogwild - https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425935/police-right-to-not-stop-anti-lockdown-protesters-science-denial-expert

It's really no difference except on a smaller scale.

This is why the virus is still going strong. You will never have 100% "compliant" ("OBEY" ) people anywhere around the world.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
18. It is different, New Zealand has fewer religious people.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:11 AM
Aug 2021

America has more ignorance. Yeah, New Zealand had protesters too. They have religious people also. The filthy rich are always funding and supporting the crazies. It keeps them in power.

But New Zealand has less ignorance. Less of the crazies that think they can pray or wish the pandemic away.

And just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it could never be done. A large country has all the same resources as a small country has... probably more. The US has a lot more money they could throw at the lockdown...which the never really tried.

And to have a successful lockdown you don't need 100 percent compliance. I don't believe New Zealand, China or Vietnam had 100 compliance. Even totalitarian countries like Russia could never get 100 percent compliance, even if they wanted to reduce deaths due to COVID-19.

There is very little evidence that size matters.

meadowlander

(4,395 posts)
37. New Zealand is also influenced strongly by Maori/Polynesian culture
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 02:38 PM
Aug 2021

which places a lot more emphasis and value on community spirit and love/generosity for others.

Like Scandinavia, cultures that have evolved around long-distance boat travel tend to place more value on working together to achieve goals and helping others.

The messaging from day 1 was "we're all in this together" and that has more resonance in a culture like New Zealand's compared with the US.


Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
41. So, true
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 04:21 PM
Aug 2021

I'm going to send your link to my smart TV so I can hear it. I don't have volume on this desk top. It's a security issue, but I'll definitely be looking at your link. Thanks.

MichMan

(11,915 posts)
11. We never had anything remotely close to a lockdown here
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:17 AM
Aug 2021

50 % of all businesses were called essential. In Michigan that meant grocery stores, liquor stores, auto parts stores, home improvement stores, pharmacies, trucking companies, marijuana dispensaries, and the list goes on and on.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
13. Reading is fundamental
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:27 AM
Aug 2021
Under the lockdown rules, New Zealand’s toughest, residents must stay at home and all schools, public facilities and nonessential businesses are closed.

MichMan

(11,915 posts)
15. I read it. Doesn't mean anything until you know what is considered essential
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:39 AM
Aug 2021

It was a joke in.my state. Couldn't take my dog to a veterinarian, but could buy pot and lottery tickets all day long.

People were visiting auto parts stores daily to buy wax and polish.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
17. It's going to always vary
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:53 AM
Aug 2021

because every state is like its own "country".

Here in PA, we had a continually-updated list regarding what was to be considered "essential" vs "non-essential" (often entirely legit, but also based on who screamed the loudest).

When the state stores, which are the only places where you could buy "spirits" and wine (outside of a few, recently-granted liquor license supermarkets selling wine and beer when the state laws were changed), were shut down as "non-essential" (also due to the fact that they were staffed with state employees who had no PPE or other mitigation strategies in place), it was found that people merely drove across the bridge to Jersey or down to DE or MD to get liquor. But it eventually boiled down to what facilities could control close-contact interactions within their square footage (where "essential" places like supermarkets and pharmacies had restrictions as to how many could be inside at one time).

There were many missteps the past year and it hasn't changed that much this year outside of at least having vaccines and coming to grips as to the mode of infection.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
21. I bet if the federal government paid people, there could be a successful lockdown
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:31 AM
Aug 2021

You don't have to be unemployed, everyone who stays home gets paid. This would require minimal policing.

$10 to $20 a day, for every day you stay home. It wouldn't take much. Then if you are caught not following the lockdown, you pay back $11 to $21 a day.

But you would have to not make fast food waiters essential workers. The filthy rich would have to stop making money off our labor for awhile. You would have to organize and develop systems and processes to identify when people stay home or not. Maybe a check in system. Maybe free housing for the homeless too.

But it is all too much work for a lazy government and too much money for greedy American oligarchs.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
23. "$10 to $20 a day, for every day you stay home. It wouldn't take much."
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 11:04 AM
Aug 2021

I take it you have not worked for the federal government before?

Tell me how are you going to track who is getting "paid"? You seem to envision some government employee standing in the street, 1930s-style, with a bag of cash handing it out to people in line.

You have to have some "system" in place to distribute money and THAT costs money to create. AND there have to be checks and validation criteria in place to reduce the incidences of people who will "game" the policy, and thus the system. Look what happened with the PPA and the large businesses who took advantage to the detriment of the small and micro-businesses who faced the biggest impacts.

This was also part of the problem with getting the various stimulus checks out quickly and is currently one of the biggest hurdles to getting billions and billions of dollars designated for landlords and tenants, out to them to take care of rent, and reduce the evictions.

I know there is a lot of fantastical thinking about the logistics of distribution and how magical "systems" just suddenly appear out of thin air to "fix" a problem. But what you propose is ripe for the taking by the very 1% who will always take advantage of poorly-implemented policies and/or systems that are rushed or reduced in scope due to cost factors.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
24. I was in the Navy for over 20 years...so yeah, I have worked for the federal government
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 11:58 AM
Aug 2021

Yeah, it would be a lot of work but the government manages to track 240.2 million tax returns and paycheck deductions, over 61 million SS payments, 26 million Medicare payments, student loan payments, 2.25 million military paychecks, 9.6 million beneficiaries to military medical care and 2.3 million retirement pensions and funding for billions in weapons and supplies. They manage to pay 2.1 million civilian workers and $665 Billion in contracts. And they do all that all at the same time.

So no...it is not fantastical thinking. You are just use to a lazy government and can't imagine the federal government helping instead of merely starting useless, expensive wars over and over again.

If the US federal government had the political will to do it, it would.

If you want to test how accurately the feral government can track things, stop paying your taxes for a year or 2 and see what happens.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
30. "Yeah, it would be a lot of work but"
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 01:06 PM
Aug 2021

And the "but" says plenty.... and you should know better.

My dad who was a WW2 vet who worked for the VA as a federal government (civil service) computer programmer, writing code for the processing of the very checks that got sent out to vets from the mid-'50s - mid-'70s until he passed away. The big VA mainframe here in Philly that he worked on was at 5000 Wissahickon Ave (that complex now completely torn down and rebuilt). Since about the '90s, the government has pretty much contracted all of that out, and that cost has been breathtaking to say the least.

And yes it IS fantastical thinking because the problem is happening right now with parts of the "American Rescue Plan" funding because it was given to the states to handle. As it is, the fiasco of the IRS getting stimulus checks out resulted in upwards of a year's delay to actual tax return refunds to people who had filed a year ago (and I know my refund was months late), and is a perfect example of what happens when you try to shoehorn and dump tens of millions MORE people into a data system (who were never in there before), that was only designed to handle a certain number of entries. And many of those people had no internet access, so it all had to be handled manually.

And every single example you give is all done by government contracts and you even saw what happened recently with yet another contracting fiasco by the military regarding AWS vs MS for cloud services with that JEDI solicitation, where time will now be wasted on dealing with protests and whatnot.

Remember that the entire U.S. is not "in the workforce" and trackable by some government system (and that even includes SS), but when it came to trying to get people like "gig workers" and other part-time people who never filed a tax return, into a system, that's when the "fun" began.

The fact that the Real ID Act deadline has been extended over and over since its 2005 passage (with its original implementation date in 2008, now extended to 2023), shows how trying to do something "nationally" can and often will be torpedoed every step of the way, and has nothing to do with being "lazy".

It is a fairy tale worthy of Captain Kangaroo.

Farmer-Rick

(10,163 posts)
40. You are really not dealing with reality well.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 04:18 PM
Aug 2021

I think you need to realize you lost this argument and give up.

I should know better? Guess what? I got free medical, do you? It's all due to the FACT that the US federal government can walk and chew gum all at the same time.

Chill, take a bath, relax. It's not the end of the world because you lost this argument.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
43. Ahh... the insults to dismiss the argument
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 04:28 PM
Aug 2021

I'm sorry but as a retired fed after 30+ years of federal service, I know quite a bit more than you think.

I suggest you come out of the clouds of silliness like "pay(ing) people $10 and $20 to sit home", along with the government is "lazy", and the other nonsense you attempted, and quit while you can before making a bigger fool of yourself.

meadowlander

(4,395 posts)
36. At level 4 in New Zealand you can only leave your house to
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 02:34 PM
Aug 2021

- get exercise in your neighbourhood
- go to the supermarket, pharmacy or gas station
- get medical help
- get a Covid test

Everything else is closed. No restaurant delivery. Grocery delivery only for people who have a health risk.

Last year I was trying to file my tax return and couldn't get to the post office or get a courier to come and pick them up for almost two months.

MichMan

(11,915 posts)
28. How are people expected to get to the marijuana dispensary without gas?
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 01:00 PM
Aug 2021

I'm not saying none were essential, but many were not.

People buying auto wax and gardening supplies certainly were not.

cstanleytech

(26,290 posts)
29. True they do not "need" wax for their cars but they do "need" auto parts to repair said cars
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 01:04 PM
Aug 2021

to be able to get to things like the pharmacy and the grocery store especially if they live in more rural area and have to drive more than 5 or more miles to get to them.

CottonBear

(21,596 posts)
14. Prime Minister Ardern and her government are doing an incredible job managing the pandemic.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:37 AM
Aug 2021

New Zealand is fortunate to have elected her.

cstanleytech

(26,290 posts)
31. Children have never really mattered to Republican politicians except as a political tool.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 01:08 PM
Aug 2021

For example, if children actually mattered to Republican politicians except as a political tool they would support things like providing full medical care to them after they are born just as much as they support laws opposing abortion.

cstanleytech

(26,290 posts)
25. Should it not be 2 weeks as by then anyone with it should have at least some symptoms
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 12:11 PM
Aug 2021

which should make it easier to control?

meadowlander

(4,395 posts)
35. They need three days to do genome sequencing to try to link it to the border
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 02:29 PM
Aug 2021

They're also contact tracing and testing the sewage to get a better picture of the scale of the outbreak.

Then they'll make another call. It's currently 7 days for Auckland and the Coromandel (which have direct links to the case) and 3 days for the rest of the country.

This is what they did for the Wellington case last month. In that case, there was no evidence of transmission after three days so they lifted the restrictions.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
49. From your link --here is one of the issues that we have here as well
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:39 AM
Aug 2021
Coster confirmed only 4000 of police’s 10,000 staff had been fully vaccinated. He would not comment on whether he had asked the Government to prioritise police officers for vaccinations.


(emphasis mine)



We have a number of cops, firefighters, EMS, and other medical/health personnel who have refused to be vaccinated - some claiming that it was because the vaccines are not "fully approved" (although I doubt in a few weeks when they are "fully approved", that it will make a difference to them), and others refuse because they are like the other anti-vax loons.

My city put in a vaccine mandate (with the usual exemptions) for all city employees - and that includes the police, fire, EMTs, streets department (trash/recycling collectors, etc).

meadowlander

(4,395 posts)
51. There are some anti-vaxers but I think it's a slightly different issue here.
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 02:28 PM
Aug 2021

The head of police was interviewed on the news last night and said police were not included in the Stage 1 vaccination plan (which focused on border workers and health care workers) despite asking to be.

Vaccines are only available in NZ to people over 40 unless they are in specific categories (border workers, health care workers and people with underlying medical conditions). They only opened up to 40-50 year olds this week. Dr Ashley Bloomfeld (NZ's Dr Fauci) still hasn't been vaccinated because he only just qualified for an appointment this week.

Since cops tend to skew younger than the general population, that's probably why so few of them are vaccinated, rather than 60% of the cops refusing to get a vaccine that would otherwise be available to them.

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
52. Okay thanks for the clarification
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 02:48 PM
Aug 2021

I know LEO will definitely skew younger, but I think here the thought process was that they were considered "front line workers" and would have more potential for extended face-to-face contact with the general public due to their occupation. So they were separated out as a group, from their actual age groups when it came to priority...

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
50. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:55 AM
Aug 2021

The whole business model of products like TP or the disinfecting wipes, etc., were developed to use "just in time" manufacturing so you don't have warehouses full of product that isn't moving but require a cost to store. They track wholesale/retail orders and develop estimated amounts that are expected to be sent out weekly/monthly/quarterly so they can adjust how much is manufactured.

All you need is one or two in your neighborhood/locale near your regular supermarket/store to start hoarding, and then when you or someone else goes to the store to buy some (because maybe you have a roll left), and find the shelves are bare, you now find yourself SOL, but roll with it. But then a few days or a week later when you really really need a pack and you check the store again and find the shelf still empty, you eventually develop the outlook that you either may be forced to use a substitute (like facial tissues, which can clog up the waste drains pretty efficiently) and/or the next time you find some, you "stock up" like others.

As a note, women, thanks to that good old physiology, have to use more than men.

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