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BumRushDaShow

(128,939 posts)
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:33 AM Oct 2021

Manchin denounces the Democrats' plan to tax billionaires as divisive.

Source: New York Times

Senate Democrats’ plan to extract hundreds of billions of dollars from the wealth of billionaires hit a major snag on Wednesday when Senator Joe Manchin III, Democrat of West Virginia, denounced it as divisive. The billionaires tax, officially unveiled early Wednesday morning, may have died before the ink was dry on its 107-page text. Mr. Manchin, speaking with reporters, said, “I don’t like the connotation that we’re targeting different people.” People, he added, that “contributed to society and create a lot of jobs and a lot of money and give a lot of philanthropic pursuits.” “It’s time that we all pull together and grow together,” he said. The proposed tax would almost certainly face court challenges, but given the blockade on more conventional tax rate increases imposed by Senator Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona, Democrats have few other options for financing their domestic agenda.

Finance Committee aides expressed surprise at Mr. Manchin’s position, insisting that he had expressed at least mild support to the committee’s chairman, Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon. If the proposal can be enacted over Mr. Manchin’s concerns, billionaires would be taxed on the unrealized gains in the value of their liquid assets, such as stocks, bonds and cash, which can grow for years as vast capital stores that can be borrowed off to live virtually income tax free. The tax would be levied on anyone with more than $1 billion in assets or more than $100 million in income for three consecutive years — which applies to about 700 people in the United States. Initially, the legislation would impose the capital gains tax — 23.8 percent — on the gain in value of billionaires’ tradable assets like stocks, bonds and cash based on the original price of those assets.

For people like the Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg, the Amazon founder Jeff Bezos and the Tesla founder Elon Musk, that hit would be enormous, since the initial value of their horde of stocks was zero. They would have five years to pay that sum. After that, those billionaires would face an annual capital gains tax on the increase in value of their tradable assets over the course of the year. The legislation was also drafted to allow billionaires to continue their philanthropy without any tax penalty for money given away. Democrats say the billionaires tax could be one of the most politically popular elements of their social safety net and climate change bill, which is expected to cost at least $1.5 trillion.

But implementation could be tricky. Billionaires have avoided taxation by paying themselves very low salaries while amassing fortunes in stocks and other assets. They then borrow off those assets to finance their lifestyles, rather than selling the assets and paying capital gains taxes. The plan already faced resistance from some House Democrats who worry that it may not be feasible and could be vulnerable to legal and constitutional challenges. The Constitution gives Congress broad powers to impose taxes, but says “direct taxes” — a term without clear definition — should be apportioned among the states so that each state’s residents pay a share equal to the share of the state’s population.

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/10/27/us/biden-spending-bill-deal/democrats-want-to-tax-billionaires-to-pay-for-their-agenda-heres-what-theyre-proposing



I believe this part of the full funding proposal is different from the corporate "AMT" portion that seemed to have some sort of support from Manchin and Sinema.
66 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Manchin denounces the Democrats' plan to tax billionaires as divisive. (Original Post) BumRushDaShow Oct 2021 OP
Yes, let's not alienate the billionaries. mzmolly Oct 2021 #1
How much is being paid to block any progressive legislation by the Republican plutocrats? olegramps Oct 2021 #54
+1... myohmy2 Oct 2021 #62
He's suggesting I'm just like a billionaire? Bobstandard Oct 2021 #2
Oh ffs, is he never satisfied. badhair77 Oct 2021 #3
Interesting how we call them billionaires instead of oligarchs... bluewater Oct 2021 #4
+1 jalan48 Oct 2021 #9
Poor babies. rickyhall Oct 2021 #5
Jeezus H. Something that helps the people, the country and the planet is being called divisive by Evolve Dammit Oct 2021 #6
I am so sick of crybaby rich pricks! BlueJac Oct 2021 #7
Lawrence O'Donnell flat out predicted this last night!! Jon King Oct 2021 #8
I guess we'll have to take what we can get, ya know, something is better than nothing Fiendish Thingy Oct 2021 #10
So, Little By Little He Is Going To Remove Everything From THe Bill Me. Oct 2021 #11
And then, at the last moment Bettie Oct 2021 #22
Taxing billionaires is wildly popular. He's not even trying to pretend anymore. So out of touch he onecaliberal Oct 2021 #12
So is the Republicans' refusal to raise the minimum wage Mr. Ected Oct 2021 #13
The rotating villains plan seems to be working for the donor class. aocommunalpunch Oct 2021 #14
It was my understanding that the framework to pay for the plan was agreed to Bev54 Oct 2021 #15
Well there goes that plan. Now who's gonna stop the proposed corporate tax increase? n/t PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #16
You heard right. Manchin spoke to Reporters answering their questions. True Blue American Oct 2021 #17
Well then he should be talking to Sinema -- She's the one who won't raise the vsrazdem Oct 2021 #18
The abuse of the tax code Casady1 Oct 2021 #19
This freakin' guy... SKKY Oct 2021 #20
& well, I think he's still on board for the laughable corporate tax increase, such a brave soul he yaesu Oct 2021 #21
divisive: 333,999,300 for - 700 against out of 334,000,000 rurallib Oct 2021 #23
Why is kacekwl Oct 2021 #24
I think the title is overwrought. "Denounces" isn't what I heard. nt pnwmom Oct 2021 #25
So much for getting what we can get. Give an inch, then another, and another, another ... another. KPN Oct 2021 #26
Two points on this: George II Oct 2021 #27
What has changed is that many more people are millionaires these days, especially in states pnwmom Oct 2021 #32
There were 10.8 millionaire households in 2016, there are 12.0 in 2020. I think it's more a factor.. George II Oct 2021 #33
Where did you get that figure? I've seen numbers like that that excluded primary residences, pnwmom Oct 2021 #37
Here's the data... George II Oct 2021 #41
Right, it excludes primary residences. But most ordinary people who own million dollar homes -- pnwmom Oct 2021 #44
Isn't owning a house that has appreciated also an "unrealized capital gain" ? MichMan Oct 2021 #39
That's the way I see it. Plus, the proposal being looked at the most calls for a tax.... George II Oct 2021 #46
The NYT spinning shit again pecosbob Oct 2021 #28
Well that didn't take long....who would have thunk.... turbinetree Oct 2021 #29
Divisive? Harker Oct 2021 #30
A continuing asshole Traildogbob Oct 2021 #31
Divisive? IL Dem Oct 2021 #34
Since when ... rustysgurl Oct 2021 #35
Sniff! Sniff! The billionaires won't be able to afford another Yacht and Lamborghini! twin_ghost Oct 2021 #36
In terms of "trashing" re: the TOS, does he still qualify as a Democrat? Orrex Oct 2021 #38
only in terms of keeping our majority in the Senate LymphocyteLover Oct 2021 #43
Clearly not MichMan Oct 2021 #45
Well... Orrex Oct 2021 #55
LOL. Back to the old "job creators" canard. PSPS Oct 2021 #40
Head. Meet. Desk. LymphocyteLover Oct 2021 #42
I love Borowitz Archetypist Oct 2021 #47
The quote should be "row together," not "grow." hay rick Oct 2021 #48
re: "assets can be borrowed off to live virtually income tax free" thesquanderer Oct 2021 #49
He needs to be dealt with. hamsterjill Oct 2021 #50
Work requirements for tax breaks squidboy6 Oct 2021 #51
This tax doesn't make sense to me. Steelrolled Oct 2021 #52
The argument has been BumRushDaShow Oct 2021 #58
I don't care about what scheme is used for the taxing. Steelrolled Oct 2021 #60
One of the things that has been bandied about for years BumRushDaShow Oct 2021 #61
Yes agreed. Steelrolled Oct 2021 #63
He thinks the 0.001% of the 1% is not already 'divided' from the 99.999%? Justice matters. Oct 2021 #53
Realistically we need to pass a constitutional amendment... manicdem Oct 2021 #56
Bullshit! Manchin's opposition to the proposal is divisive. Martin68 Oct 2021 #57
Manchin is an obstructionist. hamsterjill Oct 2021 #59
Primary him out. truthisfreedom Oct 2021 #65
Joe "No Billionaire Left Behind" Manchin. oasis Oct 2021 #64
I am totally against taxing people on a paper rise of stocks no matter how rich they are. marie999 Oct 2021 #66

olegramps

(8,200 posts)
54. How much is being paid to block any progressive legislation by the Republican plutocrats?
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 03:37 PM
Oct 2021

He is nothing more than a Republican double agent masquerading as a Democrat. Got to hand it to the Republicans for their cunning and duplicity. He is probably also on the Russia payroll. He is a master at working both sides of the street.

Bobstandard

(1,305 posts)
2. He's suggesting I'm just like a billionaire?
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:41 AM
Oct 2021

We’re all just regular people, right? Put on our pants one leg at a time. The only difference is his closet is full of clothes and mine has just a couple of pairs of worn jeans. And of course, my closet is not in a yacht.

badhair77

(4,217 posts)
3. Oh ffs, is he never satisfied.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:42 AM
Oct 2021

You think you have one issue settled and then he brings up another. No, you can’t have unhappy billionaires. Let Grandma and Grandpa go without glasses and dental work but pander to the billionaires.

bluewater

(5,376 posts)
4. Interesting how we call them billionaires instead of oligarchs...
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:42 AM
Oct 2021

Only bad countries like Russia have "oligarchs", we have kind hearted billionaires avoiding taxes, buying senators, and having their very own "tourism" space rockets.

Big difference.




Evolve Dammit

(16,725 posts)
6. Jeezus H. Something that helps the people, the country and the planet is being called divisive by
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:42 AM
Oct 2021

a DEM. What a worthless DINO. Sinema too. Wish we could know the money trail that is driving this. Thanks to the Supremes for Citizens United. Now the "Thomas Court?" Not looking good...

Jon King

(1,910 posts)
8. Lawrence O'Donnell flat out predicted this last night!!
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:47 AM
Oct 2021

Amazing, Lawrence had a guest on glowing about this deal to fund the bill. He said Manchin did not oppose it yet so he must be on board. Lawrence said "unless he waits until tomorrow when the cameras are on to get more attention".

Bingo.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,606 posts)
10. I guess we'll have to take what we can get, ya know, something is better than nothing
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:53 AM
Oct 2021

/sarcasm

Fuck.That.Shit.

Fuck.That.Guy.

Bettie

(16,104 posts)
22. And then, at the last moment
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:20 PM
Oct 2021

Kyrsten is probably going to do her thumbs down curtsey act after getting it knocked down to a barely there bill anyway.

onecaliberal

(32,854 posts)
12. Taxing billionaires is wildly popular. He's not even trying to pretend anymore. So out of touch he
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:54 AM
Oct 2021

can't hear what he sounds like. We know they own you, Senator.

Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
13. So is the Republicans' refusal to raise the minimum wage
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:54 AM
Oct 2021

Some would say that based solely on the number of Americans affected, their divisiveness is much more debilitating than the one he accuses Dems of.

Come on, Manchin. You think we're that stupid?

Bev54

(10,052 posts)
15. It was my understanding that the framework to pay for the plan was agreed to
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:58 AM
Oct 2021

before they went on recess. Now he and Sinema come back and say not so fast. Who would ever trust either one of them again?

True Blue American

(17,984 posts)
17. You heard right. Manchin spoke to Reporters answering their questions.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:05 PM
Oct 2021

He said a tax had been agreed on. Manchin also said Biden had been in the Senate for 36 years, he knew how negotiations go. Manchin also added, he will get his bill.

A lot of it is being written up right now.

vsrazdem

(2,177 posts)
18. Well then he should be talking to Sinema -- She's the one who won't raise the
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:07 PM
Oct 2021

corporate income tax - which forced them to look elsewhere to pay for the program. He should be telling HER its divisive.

 

Casady1

(2,133 posts)
19. The abuse of the tax code
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:08 PM
Oct 2021

By these billionaires have to be dealt with. Theil and many others “ purchased founders stock through Roth IRA. Some reporter has to ask Manchin what is his solution to this problem.

yaesu

(8,020 posts)
21. & well, I think he's still on board for the laughable corporate tax increase, such a brave soul he
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:20 PM
Oct 2021

is .

rurallib

(62,413 posts)
23. divisive: 333,999,300 for - 700 against out of 334,000,000
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:28 PM
Oct 2021

but if you look at the dollars represented by each side it is about 50/50

kacekwl

(7,016 posts)
24. Why is
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:30 PM
Oct 2021

it ok to treat them differently when we give them tax welfare over and over. More nonsense from this paid for whor errah, politician.

KPN

(15,644 posts)
26. So much for getting what we can get. Give an inch, then another, and another, another ... another.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:32 PM
Oct 2021

Was it Robert Reich who wondered aloud whether Biden's Build Back Better would ultimately shrink away to nothing? And this is just compromising with Democrats.

George II

(67,782 posts)
27. Two points on this:
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:35 PM
Oct 2021

1. I'm not sure that the way this is being proposed is legal.
2. Just a short time ago those decrying "millionaires and billionaires" are now just including billionaires. Why the change?

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
32. What has changed is that many more people are millionaires these days, especially in states
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:39 PM
Oct 2021

like NY and CA, just because they own a house that's appreciated, and have a retirement plan.

George II

(67,782 posts)
33. There were 10.8 millionaire households in 2016, there are 12.0 in 2020. I think it's more a factor..
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:44 PM
Oct 2021

...of "who" is now a millionaire rather than the actual number of millionaires.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
37. Where did you get that figure? I've seen numbers like that that excluded primary residences,
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:14 PM
Oct 2021

which is where most people who have a million in assets have their wealth.

George II

(67,782 posts)
41. Here's the data...
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:26 PM
Oct 2021

For 2020:

Do you know how many millionaires are in the U.S. today? The answer is there are about 12 million millionaire households, according to Spectrem Group’s Market Insights Report.


https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/how-many-millionaires-in-us#:~:text=The%20answer%20is%20there%20are,Group's%20Market%20Insights%20Report%202020.&text=And%20that%20number%20is%20growing.

For 2016:

The number of U.S. households with a net worth of $1 million or more, not including the primary residence (NIPR), increased by 400,000 to reach a record 10.8 million in 2016.


https://www.investopedia.com/news/number-millionaires-continues-increase/

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
44. Right, it excludes primary residences. But most ordinary people who own million dollar homes --
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:29 PM
Oct 2021

a 3 bd. 2 bath ranch in close-in suburban cities of CA, NY (and here in Seattle) are aware that their houses have appreciated in value. When they hear talk of taxing millionaires, they are less likely to support such a tax.

MichMan

(11,919 posts)
39. Isn't owning a house that has appreciated also an "unrealized capital gain" ?
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:21 PM
Oct 2021

same for retirement accounts.

I have my doubts that taxing paper gains is constitutional according to many that know more than I do about such matters

George II

(67,782 posts)
46. That's the way I see it. Plus, the proposal being looked at the most calls for a tax....
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:32 PM
Oct 2021

...on "wealth" , i.e., net worth, and then re-taxed on that same "wealth" the next year, too.

So let's say someone has $2B (I wish it were me!), that person gets taxed X-% on that $2B. If that person does nothing, no change in that $2B, it's still taxed the next year by X-%. So the same dormant assets get taxed over and over again.

A more sensible thing to do is what we already have in place - income tax. Let's get rid of all the loopholes that lets the rich hide or declare exemptions for most of their income.

pecosbob

(7,538 posts)
28. The NYT spinning shit again
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:35 PM
Oct 2021
Senate Democrats’ plan to extract hundreds of billions of dollars from the wealth of billionaires


Should read "Senate Democrats' plan to make the wealthy pay at least some modicum of taxes".

Traildogbob

(8,738 posts)
31. A continuing asshole
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 12:38 PM
Oct 2021

His constituents are only the richest West Virginians. Here is a thought! Let’s eliminate the religious tax exemption. If they want to rule, write the laws, regulate education, support all guns, demand the country follow their health care plans, the they MUST help pay for it all. The Olsteen’s et al should be paying for the control they insist. Preachers of all levels of wealth are calling for blood, from their pulpits if THEIR leader is not in charge, no, not God, the real leader they bow to.
Since when do extreme religious Cleric terrorists not have to pay taxes? Guessing Taliban and ISIS are tax exempt as well.
Should we not tax a Pharma CEO that raises price of life saving injections by 5,000 percent? How divisive is that Joey. Why are we taxing Social Security, thanks Raygun, is that not dividing retirees and billionaires? Just fuck Manchin and Sinema. Bought and paid for. There is an increasing loud sucking sound emitting from this country. Because we are sucking really bad.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
38. In terms of "trashing" re: the TOS, does he still qualify as a Democrat?
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:17 PM
Oct 2021

Asking for a friend and for the future of the nation at large.

MichMan

(11,919 posts)
45. Clearly not
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 01:29 PM
Oct 2021

Since both Manchin and Sinema have been accused multiple times here of taking bribes and being Russian foreign agents among other things

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
55. Well...
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 04:14 PM
Oct 2021

I’ve had posts hidden for suggesting that Chuck Schumer doesn’t know how to parallel park, so the height of the bar seems to vary.

thesquanderer

(11,986 posts)
49. re: "assets can be borrowed off to live virtually income tax free"
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 02:07 PM
Oct 2021

Maybe the amount of their assets that they choose to borrow against should be taxed as a kind of income.

squidboy6

(2 posts)
51. Work requirements for tax breaks
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 02:28 PM
Oct 2021

Hey Manchin,

I wanna see retroactive work requirements for the Trump Tax breaks.

Wanna big tax break/windfall? Then you have to have your employer sign, under penalty, that the person applying for a tax break while being wealthy is gainfully employed at least 40 hours a week and that the work is meaningful and necessary.

If the employer can’t sign it, under penalties for fraud, then the tax break is undeserved.

Does this make sense? Who cares! If the republicans can do stupid stuff like going back all the way to Ronnie Raygun, then they can expect the vast majority of citizens to do crazier things too!

Of course one third of that tax break went overseas to non-citizen investors and that should never have happened.

That tax break includes you, too, Manchin. Gonna get Mitch to sign for you?

And that reminds me, what’s black and white and black and white?

Ans. Mitch McConnell rolling down the Capital steps in a tuxedo.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
52. This tax doesn't make sense to me.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 02:35 PM
Oct 2021

We have a progressive income tax, that increases as you go up in income. But here there would be a huge gap in income before this provision kicks in.

If we need the tax income, we can start at a much lower level, say a few million, and ramp it up from there.

BumRushDaShow

(128,939 posts)
58. The argument has been
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 06:46 PM
Oct 2021

and this actually applies to many "hedge funds managers" too - you have people with "ownership of" or "control over" a number of types of assets where as "owners/controllers", they can give themselves a "modest salary" to minimize their actual "income tax", but can then borrow (in a similar fashion as someone getting a home equity loan) against those assets in order to pay for all the types of things that they would normally buy with real income... basically "borrow and spend" (sound familiar? ) using their "worth" as another income stream that is not taxed. Their assets *should* then be considered collateral against loan default, but the most sophisticated ones never get to that point.

The amount they can "borrow" against those assets, is based on some vague valuation of the worth that seems to be inflated in terms of how much can be borrowed, but suddenly gets deflated at tax time as some kind of "depreciation" (for certain assets), and written off.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
60. I don't care about what scheme is used for the taxing.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 08:50 PM
Oct 2021

My point is that if this tax is good enough for billionaires, it is good enough for people with 10 million (or whatever, name your level of wealth). You don't have to be a billionaire to have plenty of spare change lying around.

It seems wrong that our progressive tax rate stops at around 500-600 thousand, and then we have another tax scheme that kicks in at 1 billion. That is quite a gap, and it looks bad.

BumRushDaShow

(128,939 posts)
61. One of the things that has been bandied about for years
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 08:57 PM
Oct 2021

is closing all the loopholes - like claims for deductions and "write offs" as "business expenses" when there really is no "business" associated from those write-offs.

Just a whole lot of other things that can be done.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
63. Yes agreed.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 11:48 PM
Oct 2021

What often confuses the issue is that the government tries to influence our behavior through tax incentives - e.g. encourage R&D spending, energy efficiency, education, etc., through tax deductions. When used as intended, these are not loopholes.

The loopholes are when people figure out how to use these incentives in ways not intended, e.g. get a tax deduction for R&D spending which is not really R&D spending in reality.

manicdem

(388 posts)
56. Realistically we need to pass a constitutional amendment...
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 06:27 PM
Oct 2021

...to implement the wealth tax.


Which is unrealistic.

hamsterjill

(15,220 posts)
59. Manchin is an obstructionist.
Wed Oct 27, 2021, 07:42 PM
Oct 2021

He is going to object to something every time because his goal is to make Democrats fail. He is bought and paid for, and doing what he has been paid to do. Dems need to get him under control in ways that cannot be discussed here. The situation calls for action and I’m not seeing any.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
66. I am totally against taxing people on a paper rise of stocks no matter how rich they are.
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:50 AM
Oct 2021

If they do this then they should be allowed to take a loss on a paper fall of stocks.

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