Manchin denounces the Democrats' plan to tax billionaires as divisive.
Source: New York Times
Senate Democrats plan to extract hundreds of billions of dollars from the wealth of billionaires hit a major snag on Wednesday when Senator Joe Manchin III, Democrat of West Virginia, denounced it as divisive. The billionaires tax, officially unveiled early Wednesday morning, may have died before the ink was dry on its 107-page text. Mr. Manchin, speaking with reporters, said, I dont like the connotation that were targeting different people. People, he added, that contributed to society and create a lot of jobs and a lot of money and give a lot of philanthropic pursuits. Its time that we all pull together and grow together, he said. The proposed tax would almost certainly face court challenges, but given the blockade on more conventional tax rate increases imposed by Senator Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona, Democrats have few other options for financing their domestic agenda.
Finance Committee aides expressed surprise at Mr. Manchins position, insisting that he had expressed at least mild support to the committees chairman, Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon. If the proposal can be enacted over Mr. Manchins concerns, billionaires would be taxed on the unrealized gains in the value of their liquid assets, such as stocks, bonds and cash, which can grow for years as vast capital stores that can be borrowed off to live virtually income tax free. The tax would be levied on anyone with more than $1 billion in assets or more than $100 million in income for three consecutive years which applies to about 700 people in the United States. Initially, the legislation would impose the capital gains tax 23.8 percent on the gain in value of billionaires tradable assets like stocks, bonds and cash based on the original price of those assets.
For people like the Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg, the Amazon founder Jeff Bezos and the Tesla founder Elon Musk, that hit would be enormous, since the initial value of their horde of stocks was zero. They would have five years to pay that sum. After that, those billionaires would face an annual capital gains tax on the increase in value of their tradable assets over the course of the year. The legislation was also drafted to allow billionaires to continue their philanthropy without any tax penalty for money given away. Democrats say the billionaires tax could be one of the most politically popular elements of their social safety net and climate change bill, which is expected to cost at least $1.5 trillion.
But implementation could be tricky. Billionaires have avoided taxation by paying themselves very low salaries while amassing fortunes in stocks and other assets. They then borrow off those assets to finance their lifestyles, rather than selling the assets and paying capital gains taxes. The plan already faced resistance from some House Democrats who worry that it may not be feasible and could be vulnerable to legal and constitutional challenges. The Constitution gives Congress broad powers to impose taxes, but says direct taxes a term without clear definition should be apportioned among the states so that each states residents pay a share equal to the share of the states population.
Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/10/27/us/biden-spending-bill-deal/democrats-want-to-tax-billionaires-to-pay-for-their-agenda-heres-what-theyre-proposing
I believe this part of the full funding proposal is different from the corporate "AMT" portion that seemed to have some sort of support from Manchin and Sinema.
mzmolly
(50,992 posts)olegramps
(8,200 posts)He is nothing more than a Republican double agent masquerading as a Democrat. Got to hand it to the Republicans for their cunning and duplicity. He is probably also on the Russia payroll. He is a master at working both sides of the street.
...
Bobstandard
(1,305 posts)Were all just regular people, right? Put on our pants one leg at a time. The only difference is his closet is full of clothes and mine has just a couple of pairs of worn jeans. And of course, my closet is not in a yacht.
badhair77
(4,217 posts)You think you have one issue settled and then he brings up another. No, you cant have unhappy billionaires. Let Grandma and Grandpa go without glasses and dental work but pander to the billionaires.
bluewater
(5,376 posts)Only bad countries like Russia have "oligarchs", we have kind hearted billionaires avoiding taxes, buying senators, and having their very own "tourism" space rockets.
Big difference.
rickyhall
(4,889 posts)I'm so tired of this guy.
Evolve Dammit
(16,725 posts)a DEM. What a worthless DINO. Sinema too. Wish we could know the money trail that is driving this. Thanks to the Supremes for Citizens United. Now the "Thomas Court?" Not looking good...
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)That is all!
Jon King
(1,910 posts)Amazing, Lawrence had a guest on glowing about this deal to fund the bill. He said Manchin did not oppose it yet so he must be on board. Lawrence said "unless he waits until tomorrow when the cameras are on to get more attention".
Bingo.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,606 posts)/sarcasm
Fuck.That.Shit.
Fuck.That.Guy.
Me.
(35,454 posts)Bettie
(16,104 posts)Kyrsten is probably going to do her thumbs down curtsey act after getting it knocked down to a barely there bill anyway.
onecaliberal
(32,854 posts)can't hear what he sounds like. We know they own you, Senator.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)Some would say that based solely on the number of Americans affected, their divisiveness is much more debilitating than the one he accuses Dems of.
Come on, Manchin. You think we're that stupid?
aocommunalpunch
(4,237 posts)How they sleep at night is a mystery.
Bev54
(10,052 posts)before they went on recess. Now he and Sinema come back and say not so fast. Who would ever trust either one of them again?
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)True Blue American
(17,984 posts)He said a tax had been agreed on. Manchin also said Biden had been in the Senate for 36 years, he knew how negotiations go. Manchin also added, he will get his bill.
A lot of it is being written up right now.
vsrazdem
(2,177 posts)corporate income tax - which forced them to look elsewhere to pay for the program. He should be telling HER its divisive.
Casady1
(2,133 posts)By these billionaires have to be dealt with. Theil and many others purchased founders stock through Roth IRA. Some reporter has to ask Manchin what is his solution to this problem.
SKKY
(11,805 posts)yaesu
(8,020 posts)is .
rurallib
(62,413 posts)but if you look at the dollars represented by each side it is about 50/50
kacekwl
(7,016 posts)it ok to treat them differently when we give them tax welfare over and over. More nonsense from this paid for whor errah, politician.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)KPN
(15,644 posts)Was it Robert Reich who wondered aloud whether Biden's Build Back Better would ultimately shrink away to nothing? And this is just compromising with Democrats.
George II
(67,782 posts)1. I'm not sure that the way this is being proposed is legal.
2. Just a short time ago those decrying "millionaires and billionaires" are now just including billionaires. Why the change?
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)like NY and CA, just because they own a house that's appreciated, and have a retirement plan.
George II
(67,782 posts)...of "who" is now a millionaire rather than the actual number of millionaires.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)which is where most people who have a million in assets have their wealth.
George II
(67,782 posts)For 2020:
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/how-many-millionaires-in-us#:~:text=The%20answer%20is%20there%20are,Group's%20Market%20Insights%20Report%202020.&text=And%20that%20number%20is%20growing.
For 2016:
https://www.investopedia.com/news/number-millionaires-continues-increase/
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)a 3 bd. 2 bath ranch in close-in suburban cities of CA, NY (and here in Seattle) are aware that their houses have appreciated in value. When they hear talk of taxing millionaires, they are less likely to support such a tax.
MichMan
(11,919 posts)same for retirement accounts.
I have my doubts that taxing paper gains is constitutional according to many that know more than I do about such matters
George II
(67,782 posts)...on "wealth" , i.e., net worth, and then re-taxed on that same "wealth" the next year, too.
So let's say someone has $2B (I wish it were me!), that person gets taxed X-% on that $2B. If that person does nothing, no change in that $2B, it's still taxed the next year by X-%. So the same dormant assets get taxed over and over again.
A more sensible thing to do is what we already have in place - income tax. Let's get rid of all the loopholes that lets the rich hide or declare exemptions for most of their income.
pecosbob
(7,538 posts)Senate Democrats plan to extract hundreds of billions of dollars from the wealth of billionaires
Should read "Senate Democrats' plan to make the wealthy pay at least some modicum of taxes".
turbinetree
(24,695 posts)Harker
(14,015 posts)There's already a division, and most of us are on the shitty side of it.
What an arse.
Traildogbob
(8,738 posts)His constituents are only the richest West Virginians. Here is a thought! Lets eliminate the religious tax exemption. If they want to rule, write the laws, regulate education, support all guns, demand the country follow their health care plans, the they MUST help pay for it all. The Olsteens et al should be paying for the control they insist. Preachers of all levels of wealth are calling for blood, from their pulpits if THEIR leader is not in charge, no, not God, the real leader they bow to.
Since when do extreme religious Cleric terrorists not have to pay taxes? Guessing Taliban and ISIS are tax exempt as well.
Should we not tax a Pharma CEO that raises price of life saving injections by 5,000 percent? How divisive is that Joey. Why are we taxing Social Security, thanks Raygun, is that not dividing retirees and billionaires? Just fuck Manchin and Sinema. Bought and paid for. There is an increasing loud sucking sound emitting from this country. Because we are sucking really bad.
IL Dem
(813 posts)99.5% to 0.5%?
rustysgurl
(1,040 posts)... is requiring everyone to pay their fair share "divisive"???
twin_ghost
(435 posts)Orrex
(63,208 posts)Asking for a friend and for the future of the nation at large.
LymphocyteLover
(5,644 posts)otherwise, barely
MichMan
(11,919 posts)Since both Manchin and Sinema have been accused multiple times here of taking bribes and being Russian foreign agents among other things
Ive had posts hidden for suggesting that Chuck Schumer doesnt know how to parallel park, so the height of the bar seems to vary.
PSPS
(13,595 posts)LymphocyteLover
(5,644 posts)I'm so fucking tired of this guy. JFC.
Archetypist
(218 posts)Sadly, this is not by him
hay rick
(7,611 posts)Not that Manchin is stuck with a rowboat.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)Maybe the amount of their assets that they choose to borrow against should be taxed as a kind of income.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)Hes a never ending grinch to every progressive story.
squidboy6
(2 posts)Hey Manchin,
I wanna see retroactive work requirements for the Trump Tax breaks.
Wanna big tax break/windfall? Then you have to have your employer sign, under penalty, that the person applying for a tax break while being wealthy is gainfully employed at least 40 hours a week and that the work is meaningful and necessary.
If the employer cant sign it, under penalties for fraud, then the tax break is undeserved.
Does this make sense? Who cares! If the republicans can do stupid stuff like going back all the way to Ronnie Raygun, then they can expect the vast majority of citizens to do crazier things too!
Of course one third of that tax break went overseas to non-citizen investors and that should never have happened.
That tax break includes you, too, Manchin. Gonna get Mitch to sign for you?
And that reminds me, whats black and white and black and white?
Ans. Mitch McConnell rolling down the Capital steps in a tuxedo.
Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)We have a progressive income tax, that increases as you go up in income. But here there would be a huge gap in income before this provision kicks in.
If we need the tax income, we can start at a much lower level, say a few million, and ramp it up from there.
BumRushDaShow
(128,939 posts)and this actually applies to many "hedge funds managers" too - you have people with "ownership of" or "control over" a number of types of assets where as "owners/controllers", they can give themselves a "modest salary" to minimize their actual "income tax", but can then borrow (in a similar fashion as someone getting a home equity loan) against those assets in order to pay for all the types of things that they would normally buy with real income... basically "borrow and spend" (sound familiar? ) using their "worth" as another income stream that is not taxed. Their assets *should* then be considered collateral against loan default, but the most sophisticated ones never get to that point.
The amount they can "borrow" against those assets, is based on some vague valuation of the worth that seems to be inflated in terms of how much can be borrowed, but suddenly gets deflated at tax time as some kind of "depreciation" (for certain assets), and written off.
Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)My point is that if this tax is good enough for billionaires, it is good enough for people with 10 million (or whatever, name your level of wealth). You don't have to be a billionaire to have plenty of spare change lying around.
It seems wrong that our progressive tax rate stops at around 500-600 thousand, and then we have another tax scheme that kicks in at 1 billion. That is quite a gap, and it looks bad.
BumRushDaShow
(128,939 posts)is closing all the loopholes - like claims for deductions and "write offs" as "business expenses" when there really is no "business" associated from those write-offs.
Just a whole lot of other things that can be done.
Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)What often confuses the issue is that the government tries to influence our behavior through tax incentives - e.g. encourage R&D spending, energy efficiency, education, etc., through tax deductions. When used as intended, these are not loopholes.
The loopholes are when people figure out how to use these incentives in ways not intended, e.g. get a tax deduction for R&D spending which is not really R&D spending in reality.
Justice matters.
(6,928 posts)manicdem
(388 posts)...to implement the wealth tax.
Which is unrealistic.
Martin68
(22,800 posts)hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)He is going to object to something every time because his goal is to make Democrats fail. He is bought and paid for, and doing what he has been paid to do. Dems need to get him under control in ways that cannot be discussed here. The situation calls for action and Im not seeing any.
truthisfreedom
(23,146 posts)oasis
(49,382 posts)marie999
(3,334 posts)If they do this then they should be allowed to take a loss on a paper fall of stocks.