16 Penn swimmers say transgender teammate Lia Thomas shouldn't be allowed to compete
Source: Yahoo Sports
Sixteen teammates of Penn transgender swimmer Lia Thomas sent a letter to the school and the Ivy League arguing that Thomas has an unfair advantage in the pool and shouldn't be allowed to compete.
The letter obtained by the Washington Post on Thursday asks that the institutions decline to take legal action that could clear a path for Thomas to compete at next month's NCAA championships.
Thursday's letter was sent by 1984 Olympic gold medalist Nancy Hogshead-Makar. She's the chief executive of women’s sports advocacy organization Champion Women and a critic of Thomas' presence in the pool as a women's competitor. The 16 Penn swimmers who supported the letter remained anonymous, according to the Post.
Read more: https://sports.yahoo.com/16-penn-swimmers-say-transgender-teammate-lia-thomas-should-be-barred-from-competing-043818436.html
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Casady1
(2,133 posts)
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)but against women, she suddenly is. Taking the hormones didn't reduce her advantages in bone, collagen, shoulder breadth, and height, etc.-- advantages she had because she went through puberty as a male, and even swam in college as a male.
They should allow Lia Thomas to compete on an open team, which by default will be mostly male. But it isn't fair to women's athletics to have her competing on the women's team, which was set up in the first place to give cis-women the chance to compete against themselves, recognizing that in many sports people with male bodies would have a marked advantage.
You’ve laid out the objections perfectly.
I think there should be a separate category. Maybe someday there will be.
likesmountains 52
(4,183 posts)
Scrivener7
(53,459 posts)
srose58089
(215 posts)I did not know the Lia Thomas swam in college as a male. For me that is case closed.
greenjar_01
(6,477 posts)And that's all I have to say about that.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)Screaming “you’re a transphobic bigot” anytime anyone brought it up, especially ciswomen (reducing them to second class citizens again) and ignoring that a born male body has advantages a born female body does not, was eventually going to hit a breaking point.
It is obvious. You can see it in weightlifting as well. The same sort of huge record curve that happens when a person born in a male body competes against a person born in a female body. The deniers screaming “don’t believe your lying eyes” will no longer get to keep a stranglehold on the subject.
ChazII
(6,326 posts)
dchill
(40,904 posts)I can't disagree.
cadoman
(1,014 posts)We have to recognize the slippery slope here. If we don't have equal athletic competition for trans women then it carries over to every other trans issue.
Yes, she may have some physical differences, but all athletes have physical differences. That and hard work are what make the best athletes the best. If she's been on hormone therapy for the necessary time, those differences have been rendered negligible.
Lia identifies as a woman. Shouldn't that be immediately recognized and respected? Have you considered the trauma you're subjecting her to by treating her as a non-woman? At what point would you allow her to excel in swimming as a woman?
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)other women from using the women's restroom.
But her presence in every race is unfairly denying every other woman a chance for the winning spot, whatever kind of medal or prize is involved. It doesn't matter how hard the other women train, they will never have her masculine body structure.
The whole reason women have women's teams at all is because there was a recognition of the physical advantages that men have. And they're not eliminated simply by taking hormones for a period of time.
She went through puberty as a male and fully developed as a male, even swimming for two years in college as a male. She has the shoulder breadth, height, bone structure, collagen of a very large male -- all of which give her a huge and unfair advantage when competing against women.
I agree with the proposal that there be two teams: an "open" to all team, and a born-female team. Lia Thomas could go back to swimming among men, where she'd been ranked at 462, along with anyone else who wants to compete in an open group.
cadoman
(1,014 posts)And you say these issues are not related, but in fact, a big reason her teammates spoke up seemed to come down to the fact that they were uncomfortable with her body in the dressing room.
It's unfair to her as a woman to exclude her or "other" her because she enjoys sports. Should she also be excluded from other affirmative action that benefits "real" women? For instance, should she be excluded from consideration for workplaces seeking to improve gender diversify in their executive positions?
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)She would not be excluded from anything because she enjoys sports. She could swim on an "open to all" team.
And this is ALSO not comparable to being excluded from jobs, which have nothing to do with someone's body structure. She has a masculine body structure that gives her an unfair advantage in women's swimming.
It wouldn't give her an unfair advantage as an CEO or an attorney, or a doctor -- none of which are physical competitions.
cadoman
(1,014 posts)And frankly, why would any sensible team want to exclude their best player? Pittsburgh women's swim team is selfish, and this thread is honestly pretty disappointing.
Not the site I would have expected to be so trans unfriendly. I think I'm gonna go leave you folks to it and go somewhere a bit more inclusive for this issue.
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)for teams men were on. So women's sports teams gave them a chance to compete.
You appear to know nothing about Title 9 and the ongoing struggle women have for equity in sports.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)Makes it easier, I guess, on parents. They can tell their young cisgender daughters to stay away from sports and don’t waste their time, as those are for men and transwomen.
The trans get the 1st Class trophies and the Cis can be 2nd Class. Am I right?
Edit:
And going from rank #462 in mens to #1 in women’s tells me everything I need to know.
BradAllison
(1,879 posts)....assigned at birth women will by and large lose athletic competitions to formerly assigned at birth males who've gone thru puberty?
Sounds like you think people should ignore general common sense.
greenjar_01
(6,477 posts)
prodigitalson
(2,977 posts)Response to cadoman (Reply #37)
Post removed
Hekate
(95,577 posts)
moriah
(8,312 posts)From the article:
Is it possible that the reason Lia was low in the men's rankings while undergoing testosterone suppression therapy WAS that she was on it? I mean, she was swimming against men with all their natural testosterone at play plus the height and muscle buildup made possible by their past testosterone levels.
A lot of people are seeing that difference in ranking and getting outraged over it, but I do wonder what her male ranking would have been without transitioning. We don't know what that would be.
I wish the NCAA would do more "open" vs "mixed" events, because "mixed" rules still categorized students as either male or female. (Plus, I'm totally cool with trans women doing NCAA women's gymnastics, especially if they're going to be graded on the same "feminine artistry" and more than 180 degree splits as the women who had that flexibility all their lives instead of just recently thanks to estrogen.)
I also want to make sure that if rules are passed about hormone levels for trans athletes that they do not adversely affect athletes who are naturally intersex but were raised as female. Many of the rules about hormone levels FOR trans athletes have come from testing people who may not have known of intersex conditions before being trained for international competition.
If those who *are* "gender-critical" (not saying you are) think that we should leave nature as-is.... then accept people who are intersex but have always identified as female being able to play just like they accept Michael Phelp's marfanoid arm span to height ratio without disqualifying him from competition.
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)And the point remains the same. She went through a full male puberty, and then some, before beginning to take the hormones. They couldn't undo the effects of years of male hormones on her bones, collagen, and muscles.
I agree that this all can get very complicated, especially in the case of intersex people. The problem might are that the Sports authorities have been looking for a one size fits all solution. Someone who developed as a male and then took hormones isn't in the same position as someone who lived female all her life and then found out she was intersex.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)And I support these women's right to protest if they see fit.
Take away my Liberal Card if you must, but I've been supporting Women's Rights since I was old enough to know what those words meant.
This is not that cut-and-dry in my book.
William Seger
(11,159 posts)I'm 100% in favor of 100% equal rights, but this seems to go beyond that by infringing on the rights of others.
FreepFryer
(7,086 posts)Etc
Fair competition isn’t the motivation for everyone seeking to exclude trans people from social spaces.
For some, the goal is further normalization of dehumanization and discrimination.
Dr. Strange
(26,007 posts)Or shouldn't be allowed to compete in the womens' category? Those are pretty different.
I certainly have no problem with Thomas competing in the open category.
JT45242
(3,020 posts)Because of this case, and a few others, the athletic agencies are beginning to work on regulations.
One thing that they will require is a long term (proposal I saw as 36 months) tracking of hormone levels. So, any transgender woman would have to be below the thresholds for 36 months consecutively before they would be allowed to compete.
Something like that seems fair -- a way to quantify the advantages just like they would for a PED.
I say this as someone who has a transgender niece who is currently taking hormone blockers to prevent male puberty onset. She is a talented cross country runner. These sorts of regulations may one day determine whether or not and how she might compete in college.
Like so many things with transgender issues -- the rules and regulations are lagging behind.
One of my best friends from college who was an active LGB in the 90s and early 2000s that the trans folks were not really accepted even by the LGB community until much later. With time, hopefully, we can find a space where everyone can compete that is fair to both the cisgender and transgender athletes.
notKeith
(152 posts)JT45242 - in your post you explain that your transgender niece is taking hormone blockers to prevent male puberty onset. I.e. NOT developing male bone, muscle, and other attributes. This person would likely be allowed to participate w/o male attributes (assuming the hormone regiment is successful). This is quite different than the swimmer in question.
JT45242
(3,020 posts)He is afraid for her safety if and when some of the kids (or worse yet trump humping parents) she is racing against find out. They live in Michigan and he could see some parents getting violent.
Yes, I agree the issue is different as my niece hasn't broadened in the shoulders and had a growth spurt (which some of her cis-female competitors in 6th grade already have).
This is complicated -- they need to come up with rules that are fair and make sense.
The rules for competition always lag behind -- whether it is PED, equipment technology, or trans athletes coming out of the shadows.
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)will always have the male bone and collagen structure, the broader shoulders, the height, etc. Those advantages aren't removed by taking some hormones.
Your niece, unlike Lia Thomas, isn't going through a male puberty, so maybe that should be the key factor. Instead, Lia not only went through puberty as a male, she swam in college as a male till this year. A trans woman who had gone through puberty as a female wouldn't have the same unfair advantage that Lia does.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)Ciswomen, scared to speak up because of Twitter Justice, will start sharing their true feelings about losing scholarships and placements they trained years for only to lose out to a transgender woman. They will no longer be afraid to speak about it.
catsudon
(875 posts)no text
RobinA
(10,212 posts)they won’t be afraid to speak up. I can’t imagine what it would be like to train your whole life for something and then have this happen.
oldsoftie
(13,538 posts)Thats why there is an "open" category.
catsudon
(875 posts)i heard tail of a cis boxer taking a beating from trans boxer who gave her a concussion, broken bones
"“I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life.”"
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,231 posts)There was a transgender MMA fighter who fractured her opponents skull in a match a few years ago. I don't really follow MMA but I do remember some friends talking about it.
mahatmakanejeeves
(62,027 posts)Sixteen Penn swimmers say transgender teammate Lia Thomas should not be allowed to compete
Lia Thomas, center, is competing on the women's swimming team at the University of Pennsylvania. (Josh Reynolds/AP)
By Matt Bonesteel
Yesterday at 2:01 p.m. EST | pdated yesterday at 4:11 p.m. EST
Sixteen members of the University of Pennsylvania women’s swimming team sent a letter to school and Ivy League officials Thursday asking that they not take legal action challenging the NCAA’s recently updated transgender policy. That updated directive has the potential to prevent Penn swimmer Lia Thomas from competing at next month’s NCAA championships, and the letter indicates the 16 other swimmers believe their teammate should be sidelined.
Thomas, a transgender woman who swims for the Quakers women’s team, competed for the Penn men’s team for three seasons. After undergoing more than two years of hormone replacement therapy as part of her transition, she has posted the fastest times of any female college swimmer in two events this season. The letter from Thomas’s teammates raised the question of fairness and said she was taking “competitive opportunities” away from them — namely spots in the Ivy League championship meet, where schools can only send about half of their rosters to compete.
“We fully support Lia Thomas in her decision to affirm her gender identity and to transition from a man to a woman. Lia has every right to live her life authentically,” the letter read. “However, we also recognize that when it comes to sports competition, that the biology of sex is a separate issue from someone’s gender identity. Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female. If she were to be eligible to compete against us, she could now break Penn, Ivy, and NCAA Women’s Swimming records; feats she could never have done as a male athlete.”
{snip}
Gift Article
https://wapo.st/3HsOW8j
By Matt Bonesteel
Matt Bonesteel spent the first 17 years of his Washington Post career writing and editing. In 2014, Bonesteel pivoted from the newspaper to online and now he blogs for the Early Lead and other Web-based products owned by The Post. Twitter https://twitter.com/MattBonesteel
Baked Potato
(7,733 posts)the female restricted divisions in tournament play. Disc golf uses the Olympic rules currently.
Many female golfers are afraid to speak up because they don’t want to be *that* competitor who gets branded a bigot.
cadoman
(1,014 posts)elias7
(4,212 posts)Perhaps those who are certain that these athletes are bigots need to find a comparable situation in their own lives that allows them to relate to the problem. By saying there is no problem and then calling everyone who is not as sure a bigot, i would say that is a bigoted stance.
DownriverDem
(6,712 posts)about this. I'm very open minded and try to be fair. However is there a physical advantage that I am not aware of for her to compete as a female? I'm just asking because this is all new to me.
PatrickforB
(15,131 posts)pnwmom
(109,651 posts)She has the bone and collagen structure of a male, the shoulder breadth of a male, and the height.
Taking hormones doesn't remove all those advantages.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,231 posts)Her body developed as a male. Men are physically stronger than women. Taking hormone blockers doesn't reverse this. Her muscle and skeletal structure will remain despite any medication she takes so her physical advantage will remain.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,862 posts)Should she compete with "XXers" for limited scholarships?
Jetheels
(991 posts)sex is not changeable. Ever. Well, maybe dinosaurs can like in the movie Jurassic Park.
This is irresponsible of this swimmer competing against women.
And puts a bad light on transgender people.
I don’t know what her intention of changing gender was, maybe to get a leg up on competitions. Some do that. I’m suspicious.
I don’t have any problem with whatever gender folks decide they are, but totally ridiculous that a man can all of a sudden decide they are female and compete against women.
There’s categories for a reason.
Response to Jetheels (Reply #27)
Post removed
keithbvadu2
(40,787 posts)Did she have the surgery to become physically a female or can she revert back to male at her convenience?
How permanent is her change?
.................. Serious question.
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)her height, or the rest of her body structure that developed as she went through a male puberty.
keithbvadu2
(40,787 posts)Is it possible that someone could go through all this effort as a gimmick without fully committing?
whistler162
(11,155 posts)pnwmom
(109,651 posts)facing unfair competition.
greenjar_01
(6,477 posts)So pretending it's not a real problem is the only possible response.
cinematicdiversions
(1,969 posts)It is like decriminalising shoplifting... what did you think would happen?
whistler162
(11,155 posts)meaningless to ALL issue that is being used to distract people.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,821 posts)No one could possibly argue that Serena Williams is right at the top of women's tennis, no matter what era. Both Williams sisters had/have size and power along with great technique and every other attribute a player could want, to roll right over all other female competitors, and for year after year.
If you stood her beside any other female professional I can think of, you would see a marked difference in physiology.
All that said, when she was offered a match with Andy Murray, she declined, saying she had no wish to be humiliated, and said she would lose 6-0, 6-0, "in about 5 minutes."
Andy Murray is currently ranked #102.
As I said, the comparison is not exact, but still apt. The Williams sisters are/were not just at, but WERE the pinnacle of women's tennis. All time. Yet, she freely and without reservation, said she would be annihilated by a player mired nowhere near the top of the men's division.
pnwmom
(109,651 posts)when she's swimming against women.
She, herself, proves that giving a trans woman hormones isn't enough to mitigate the advantage of having gone through puberty, and fully developed, as a male.
robbob
(3,652 posts)men. Maybe ever since the famous Billie Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs match in the 70’s. I’ve thought of sports where this might be possible. A hockey goalie needs fast reflexes more then sheer strength, and there was a woman who played backup for a season, but never went far. In golf Michelle Wei played 8 events, never got far. The men just drive the ball so much further, although the ladies are getting close.
There are golf events where partners play “best ball” or scramble formats. Lexi Thompson teamed up with Bubba Watson a month or 2 ago, and they came very close to winning in an all-male field. Lexi’s drives were even the better ball on many of the holes they played; her accuracy winning out over Bubba’s often wild distance.
But so far it is very clear; men have a distinct physical advantage over women. The MMA story recounted above is absolutely horrifying.
Mr.Bill
(24,903 posts)is irrelevant to this topic. There was a huge age difference and while King was at the top of her game, Riggs hadn't played professionally for decades. I saw an interview with Chris Evert right after that match and she laughed and said she had a brother who was a tennis player who wasn't even ranked and he beats her every time they play.
robbob
(3,652 posts)I was saying when I saw that, back in the 70’s, it piqued my interest in the idea.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)…is pro wrestling, as in the choreographed kind of wrestling. Since that is all a pre written script and the winner is not who is the strongest or fastest, but who has the charisma to draw the biggest crowds, a transwoman wrestling cisgender woman would not matter.
ripcord
(5,553 posts)Nyla Rose an African-American, Native American trans woman who wrestles for AEW and won the women's championship on 2020.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)I see no issue with that. None at all. Good for her!
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)It was a gimmick for his pro wrestling movie. If that sport was based on who is the strongest and fastest and real; he would have been vaporized by the first body slam.
Jedi Guy
(3,324 posts)No matter what happens, it's going to be unfair to someone, whether that be Ms. Thomas and other transgender athletes like her, or the cisgender athletes against which they compete. It's simply a fact that Ms. Thomas, having gone through puberty as a male, has physiological advantages conferred by male biology. The fact that she went from #462 when competing as a male to #1 and shattering records when competing as a woman is all the evidence required on that point, really.
From a strictly utilitarian perspective, the "best" solution would be for her to compete in open teams. It's not fair to her, but it's the solution that presents the most fairness to the greatest number of people (or the least unfairness to the smallest number of people, depending on how one wants to look at it). So basically the classic "save one person tied to the train tracks or save ten" quandary.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)"An unfair advantage"... I'm sorry. That's life, people. The NCAA rules give eligible athletes the right and the opportunity to compete.. They do not guarantee a victory. Again, I'm sorry. That's life. That's reality. That's sports.
The entire history of sports, at every level, has had athletes who were just so much better than everyone else that it "seemed unfair". 100 years ago, it was Babe Ruth out-homering entire teams and seemingly being impossible to get out. In the 50's and 60's, Wilt Chamberlain was so dominant they changed the rules to try to slow him down. Wayne Gretzky scored 378 goals in one year in a youth hockey league (and we all know what he did in the NHL).
We can reply all we want about "broad shoulders" and "puberty". So tell me... Would everyone be screaming if Lia Thomas dominated the competition like this and was a cisgender woman? Where were these complaints when Martina Navratilova was dominating tennis? When Annika Sorenstam was dominating golf? Or is domination okay so long as you're cis?
For everyone who wants to pretend that being a transwoman is the cruise control to athletic dominance, I present to you Renee Richards. Renee was a mediocre tennis player prior to transitioning in the 70's. When she fought for and was able to compete as a woman post-transitioning... she was still a mediocre tennis player. No titles, no majors, and the only real success she had was a double partner (mixed-doubles with John Lucas, or women's doubles with Martina). "Broad shoulders", or being 6 feet tall, or "puberty as a male" didn't change a thing with her tennis career. It didn't lead to Renee having an unfair advantage, or overpowering the competition.
As to those of you who brought up the MMA fight a few years ago... I have the solution right here. BAN MMA. BAN BOXING. Ban all of these barbaric bloodsports! Whether it's the female MMA fighter who wound up with skull fractures, or watching Muhammad Ali waste away the way he did, or Kim Duk-koo dying thanks to injuries sustained in the ring, all of these sports are dangerous, and this is the risk anytime you put two people in the ring, the octagon, the whatever... Even if evenly matched and of equal size, every fight runs the risk of extreme injuries, long-term damage and death. These barbaric "sports" have no place in a civilized society. I don't give a damn if the fight is man vs. man, man vs. woman, cisgender vs. trans...
Don't get me wrong. I am saddened at someone being injured so badly in a fight... The same way I'm saddened anytime someone is badly injured in any boxing or MMA match. This is why I no longer watch boxing, and have never watched MMA. I don't get my jollies off watching two people try to beat each other to death.
The question there, honestly, should *not* be "Why did a cis woman end up in a match with a trans woman?" It should be "Why the hell were two people put into the ring to beat each other senseless?!"
I sincerely ask how much of this arguing and petitioning and calling for removal is in the name of "fair competition" and how much of it is just bigotry. I think some people wouldn't be thrilled with my guess.
There is no perfect answer. Perfect answers exist in perfect words. The older I get, the less perfection I see anywhere... Except maybe in a perfectly made pair of boots or a song like "25 or 6 to 4".
I don't think any trans person would object to hormone testing, and a determination that the hormones levels and ratio are acceptable for a trans athlete to participate on a team of their chosen gender. No one wants the absurdity of someone "gaming the system" while being insincere. No one wants someone trying to pull an Eric Cartman and pretending to be disabled to "dominate" the Special Olympics (though, if you saw the episode, you saw how well that turned out for him.) But if this is going to turn into an argument about physical build, shoulders, etc., then be fair. By that, ban anyone - cis or trans - who is built in such a way that their body gives them an unfair advantage.
But there is a huge difference between a scenario like that, and a transitioning trans woman wanting the opportunity to compete. You don't think I've seen cisgender women built like Lia Thomas before?
But if the "answer" is a blanket ban on trans athletes, what kind of answer is that? How is that any different than telling Josh Gibson or Cool Papa Bell "No. You can't play" just because of the color of their skin? Discrimination is discrimination.
Again, NCAA guidelines give athletes who are eligible an opportunity to compete... Not a guarantee of victory. The harsh reality in life is that sometimes you're just not the best. But, if there is one thing I've learned about bigots, it's that when in doubt, blame and/or punch down on "the others."
For everyone calling for Lia Thomas to "swim on an open team"... What kind of "open team"? Does it come with the same type of scholarship? The same kind of rights? Or is it less of a scholarship? No scholarship? Are we right back to the same ol' "You can't get married, your gay. Go get a domestic partnership instead" - even though a domestic partnership is not marriage? Separate but equal is not equal. We've seen it time and time and time again, whether it's race or gender or sexual orientation.
So what does she do? Not swim at all? Go swim on a "separate but equal" team? Go back to the "men's" team - which not only means being misgendered and misidentified, but the possibility of being the target of violence in the locker room? Taking away her rights is no better than denying Black baseball players the right to play in the Majors - regardless of "intention".
The other thing to really think about is if she indeed has an "unfair advantage". By that, I mean, quit discussing body shape, body development, "biology" or any of that... And instead think long and hard about what it's like living with this kind of internal conflict, this kind of pressure, this kind of scrutiny, this kind of controversy... Everyone sure celebrates the on-field achievements of Jackie Robinson and Bill Russell... yet take a look at what they endured off the field/court.
Some of you speak about what's fair, failing to take into account the entire picture, failing to go beyond "Golly gee, she went from 462nd to 1st". Instead, there is zero - absolutely zero - attempt to think about what would come of just kicking her off the team.
So would you like to hear life from the perspective of a trans woman?
You try losing nearly your entire family for coming out, complete with having two relatives try to murder you - one with a knife, one with a baseball bat.
You try having your "best friend", at three times your size, try to "beat the f*ggot" out of you, resulting in not only the emotional scars, but long-term physical health problems as a result of that "tough love."
You try having a county sheriff's deputy show up at your door and aim his gun at you to deliver the message to "shut the fuck up and get lost" after you push back against his bigotry on a BBS.
You try taking part in a large fundraising event, only to be denied opportunities and being told "no" on things because some jerkass bigot with too much power "pegged" you, and being subjected to abuse and bigotry, despite trying to bust your ass volunteering. Then after a decade of hell, you complain, only to be banned, and having to resort to the legal system to get out of your undeserved "prison without bars." The bigots, of course, still have their thrones. The only person punished was the victim of the abuse and bigotry.
You try 30 years of being treated as a third-class citizen - second-class would be a frigging step up at this point.
You trying having people outside your door, yelling "Crossdressers aren't real people!" because they watched Chappelle's "The Closer".
You try having a confrontation with the cops because some drunk idiot of a neighbor calls 911, accusing you of trying to prey upon a kid you've never even come near or spoken to before, all because "F*ggots like you prey on children."
You try 30 years of being denied proper healthcare, all because "God is in play" and "It might offend people" and "It's elective" and all that other shit. A situation that finally is about to be addressed, after far too long. All the while, you watch as certain people yell and scream about "giving hormones to trans teens." Yeah, fuck that. Let's wait until half their life is gone. Or more.
You try waking up with self-hatred every day, hating who the hell is in the mirror...
You try living in fear of becoming a statistic.
You try being one of the 41%, and having the scars to prove it.
Does every single thing I just listed apply to Lia Thomas, or any other trans athlete? Probably not - especially the fundraiser part. But I'm sure many of them do. But that is a taste of what life is like for a trans person. It's a hell I wouldn't wish upon anyone.
While people are going on about broad shoulders and puberty and "#462 to #1", everyone is failing to overlook the emotional baggage and inner turmoil and pain of being a trans person in the so-called "free-est country on Earth". While people are complaining about the results of an athletic competition, it seems no one is taking into account what real discrimination is - and it's not "not winning", it's being told "get lost. You're not welcome here."
Who is more vulnerable here - cisgender swimmers who aren't winning in a meet, or a member of a very vulnerable and highly targeted group of people who is being dragged into the middle of a controversy for the crime of trying to be true to themselves?
On one hand, there is not being good enough. On the other, there is being told "Get out of here, no one wants you" just because of how you are born. I'm sorry, but the former would be like calling me - an internet DJ of 14 years - a victim for not being as good as Rick Dees or Casey Kasem.
Assuming Lia Thomas is transitioning, and within the NCAA's guidelines, banning her is not only unfair, it's discrimination. Period. As long as she is following the rules, she has every right to be out there as anyone else does. The stance of these 16 swimmers, and Hog Head-Makar, and anyone calling for Thomas' ban, is downright upsetting to anyone who has been on the receiving end of that kind of bigotry and discrimination.
Fair solution? Go for it. But any "solution" that isn't fair to everyone - and that includes Lia Thomas - is nothing but discrimination. Something I think I have every right to say, being all too familiar with such discrimination.
If the "solution" sounds like something Fucker Carlson would say on Fux Noise... I'm sorry, it's no solution at all.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)During my time here on DU - which dates back further than when I first posted, and far further back from signing up - I've heard how transwomen need to do without this or do without that because, goddamnit, giving them equal rights and fair treatment would be unfair to ciswomen.
If we let trans people use the restrooms of their choice, it "makes it easier for men to sexually assault women."
If we let young trans people start therapy, it's "dangerous!" They're "too young" to make that kind of decision! OMG! TRANSITION REGRET!!!!!
We can't let Lia Thomas, despite her testosterone level being underneath the legal limit, swim because... BROAD SHOULDERS! 462 TO 1! SHE'S BREAKING RECORDS AND THESE POOR CISWOMEN CAN'T COMPETE!!!
Do you know what has been blowing up my news feed for days now, despite avoiding the Olympics like the plague? Kamila Valieva.
Kamila has tested positive for several drugs, and has been classified as a doper. She's pulled off feats unheard of, and is destroying the competition. And in her case, this is NOT allowed under any rules. She's failed drug tests. She has doped. She has cheated. She has thrown fair play and competition out the window - not from "chromosomes" or transitioning, but the use of illegal, performance enhancing drugs.
Do you know how many of the "protect cisgender female athletes" I've heard speak up against this blatant display of doping and cheating?
ZERO.
Every fucking time the issue of trans equality comes up, I listen as the same people speak up about how we need to stop this, block that, do this and disallow that, because if this is allowed, it will hurt cisgender women. Won't someone think of the ciswomen?
Right before your very eyes (all due apologies, Peter Cetera). Right here, with the whole world watching... A cisgender woman has just stomped all over fair play and the rules. She "won", the same way Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens "won". She deprived other women of a chance to win, by taking drugs she was not allowed to take.
Do you know what I hear? Crickets. None of you have spoken up. None of you have fought back for the skaters that Kamila Valieva crushed. None of you have screamed "UNFAIR ADVANTAGE!!!!" You've sat back and let this unfold because... Kamila has the right chromosomes. Because she's a real woman with XX chromosomes, there's no issue with her becoming the female Ivan Drago to win.
This isn't about sports or fair play. It's just discrimination. And saying that may upset you, but, the truth sometimes does that. But the reality is this: If you cared about fairness in sports, you'd be more upset over doping than gender reassignment.
If I had a daughter, and she had to swim against Lia Thomas, assuming she complied by the rules and had a legal testosterone level? I'd tell her "All you can do is do your best. And the say rule in life is sometimes someone is better than you."
But if that same daughter had to skate against Kamila Valieva? "This isn't fair. Sometimes in life you win. Sometimes in life you lose. But when they cheat to beat you, they've cheated the entire game, and no one deserves that."
So, if you have a problem with Lia, but you're fine with Kamila? You're not speaking up for equality... You just hate transwomen.
cabot
(724 posts)Stop with the hyperbole. It is wrong for any athlete, male, female, and and variation in between to dope. I’m sorry, but male puberty has a lasting effect. Lia was on the men’s team less than four years ago. It is profoundly unfair to the women on the team, as well as competitors, to compete against a biological male…I wish Lia luck in her journey, but biologically, she is male and with that come advantages in musculature, lung capacity, etc.
And shutting down the concerns of women who want an even playing field in sports, as well as women who do not wish to share prison cells with penised people, is incredibly misogynistic.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)None of the people calling for Lia's removal from competition have spoken up about Kamila Valieva and her doping, which is cheating. A number of people are fine with calling Lia Thomas a cheater when she's following the rules, why being silent on a blatant case of cheating, that is a violation of the rules. I wonder what the difference is...
Oh. Yes.
Lia Thomas isn't unfair. Kamila Valieva is. Doping creates advantages and I would bet 100,000 quatloos that Kamila's testosterone count is higher than Lia's. But that's not a problem?
The fact you and others would like to shut down my concerns is very telling. Calling me a misogynist for speaking up on trans rights is frankly bigoted in and of itself. I speak up for and care about all women, regardless of how they are born.
But, I know many here don't think trans women are real women.
cabot
(724 posts)The drug that the Russian girl took increases blood flow…allowing for greater endurance. I agree it was wrong of her to take…I don’t think any athlete should dope. That being said, should Lia’s competitors be allowed to take it- so they’ll have more of an equal footing with regards to blood flow and endurance? I don’t think so…but if we’re allowing someone with a biological advantage into the sport, wouldn’t this be a way of evening things up?
Biology can be unfair…this is why we have sex segregated sports. It doesn’t matter what your gender is…men’s biological advantages in terms of strength, etc. exist. Serena Williams, the greatest female tennis player ever, said she would lose to a male professional tennis player. It would be great if transitioning got rid of the advantages male puberty bestows…but, for the most part, it doesn’t.
Women have fought hard for their right to participate in sports. We shouldn’t have to move aside or give up our sex class so some elitist from Penn who was ranked 427 as a male and is now 1 as a woman can feel validated.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)Telling trans people, especially women, to "get lost" nicely is still telling them to get lost. And it's been going on here for a long time. Hormone replacement therapy for teens. Equality. The ability to use the restroom of their choice. Now it's sports issues. And what upsets me is how little difference there is between the stances here, and the stance of Tucker Carlson. Saying "you don't belong" means "you don't belong", no matter how benevolent the choice of words are.
Something to consider, seriously: Some of us are angry because we're told "That's the bottom line, because we said so!" The thoughts and feelings of people like me don't matter. When I or others speak up - whether we're trans, or just allies - we're ganged up on, talked down on like we're a 4 year old with our hand in the cookie jar, treated like we're clueless, and accused of misogyny. We care a lot more about ciswomen than they care about us. Period.
I've seen this stuff here for years. Whether it's keeping us out of your sacred restroom because of a made-up threat, or being told we should be thrown to the Republicans like a bone "to get them to be more willing to work with us", or being accused of "costing us elections!", we've seen a disturbing amount of cruelty here. We've been talked about like we're some sort of deranged cult. I've seen posts claiming the 41% statistic is a lie (some of us have the scars to prove it's not), or that people are trying to convince girls who don't like dolls that they're trans. We've been told to keep our mouths shut and our thoughts and feelings don't matter because Dave Chappelle is just so fucking funny.
I'm tired. I'm tired of seeing the same names and faces all over any trans-related thread. I'm tired of being told what to think and feel. I'm tired of being made out to be some sort of "threat" to ciswomen. I'm tired of "I got mine, so fuck you." I'm tired of trying to live my life and feeling like both sides have me in the crosshairs. I'm tired of separate but equal, and tired of hearing the same people people rant and rave about protecting women's sports while being absolutely silent over Kamila Valieva.
big·ot·ry
/ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Jose Garcia
(2,971 posts)IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)But it's okay if you're cisgender.
cabot
(724 posts)I personally don’t give a damn if washrooms are multigender. Sports and places like prisons should be single sex (the latter only if SRS hasn’t been done).
Like it or not, biology, in some instances, must take precedence. This does not mean that trans people should be disrespected or abused - absolutely not…but sports isn’t a human right. I’m sorry, but I find it disrespectful to girls and women who’ve worked hard to succeed in their chosen sport to simply smile and nod because someone who went through male puberty now identifies as a woman and essentially being told tough shit if you lose to her, she’s now a woman despite swimming on the men’s team three years ago and having double the amount of testosterone you have.
It’s a question of fairness. If records and scholarships weren’t an issue and everything was intramural, I wouldn’t care.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)Because if you did, you'd give a damn about how we feel, instead of cisplaining us. You don't get it. None of you do. You don't get how hurtful your posts are on this subject. Or maybe you do, and that's the point.
Lia Thomas didn't work hard? That's the thing. You all sit there and act like this is Juwanna Mann or something. It's not.
The next time any of you even try to think of what's fair to a transwoman on any of these issues will be the first. Because I've tried being polite about it, but, I can't anymore. The way you and others speak about these issues, and speak to us, makes it clear that to you, trans lives don't matter.
Until you push back as much on Kamila Valieva as you do Lia Thomas, you're just targeting transwomen. I repeat what I said in my response last night: I don't believe you. Why should I? You speak about trans women like they're nothing but men in dresses. You speak to me like I don't have any feelings at all.
big·ot·ry
/ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
cabot
(724 posts)You don’t care about fairness. You don’t even acknowledge that someone who has been on hormones for only two years has physical advantages thanks to their male puberty.
Women have a testosterone range of 0.5 to 2.5 nmol per L. For trans women in sports…that’s my area of concern, the highest amount allowed is 10 nmol per L. There is an advantage.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)The only area of concern you have is promoting discrimination against trans women. And the fact you talk to me like some piece of shit erases any doubt about your intentions.
It's always something. If it's not sports, you'll go after us for another reason. It never stops. It won't stop.
Honestly, I'm beyond tired of it. I'm tired of seeing the trans community be bullied on a "progressive" website.
Ace Rothstein
(3,302 posts)IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)Haven't seen the "Won't someone think of the female athletes?!" warriors say anything in them, though.
That's because Kamila Valieva isn't trans.
cabot
(724 posts)The fact you dismiss plausible concerns female athletes have illustrates your privilege. If you cannot understand why women might be wary of competing against those who’ve benefited from male puberty just say so. Biology sucks sometimes. I’m unable to carry a baby full term, yet I am not going to say it’s unfair to me if I’m around women and trans men who can and flaunt their beautiful bellies. I accept it isn’t a biological possibility for me. It’s no one’s fault. Likewise, being a trans woman who has gone through male puberty can’t control the fact that they have physiological advantages biological women don’t have.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)You have completely proven my point that you fucking hate people like me, and think we're beneath you. To sit there and accuse me of fucking privilege when the trans community is one of the most vulnerable and most targeted segments of the population is beyond disgusting and hateful. You've just erased all doubt: You are some JK Rowling trans-hating type who does see as nothing but men in dresses. "Just take off the dress and act like a man and all is good." "Be normal." "You're not a real woman anyway." "What about my right to not have to put up with you?!"
You think I'm privileged? That's delusional. I'm treated like a third-class citizen in a purple city in a blue state. I'm constantly denied "rights" and "treatment" that cisgender people enjoy and even take for granted. I've had the cops called on me under false accusations of being a child predator solely for being trans. I'd never even met the kid before, but, that doesn't matter. I must be some monster out to fuck kids. That's what men in dresses do, right?!
Well done. You let your mask slip, and made your hatred for transwomen crystal clear. About the only thing that's missing from TERF Bingo is accusing us of being sexual predators, like your hero JK Rowling.
As a baseball fan, I hated Astroturf. It wrecked knees, caused injuries and ruined and shortened careers.
As a liberal, I hate AstroTERF. It hurts people, promotes discrimination and ruins the lives of innocent people.
TERF
/tərf/
noun
noun: TERF; plural noun: TERFs
a feminist who excludes the rights of transgender women from their advocacy of women's rights.
cabot
(724 posts)Think you’re some pervert out to fuck children, nor do I see you or any trans woman as a man in a dress. I can’t help that you can’t even acknowledge that female athletes have legitimate concerns. You’re dismissing them…that’s not right.
And I’m not going to let anyone call me or any other woman names because we are listening to the concerns of female athletes. Throughout history, women have been told to shut up or we’ve been insulted into keeping our mouths shut. No more.
Think whatever you want. I’m not going to coddle you or anyone else when expressing my opinion. You, I assume, are a grown woman and can hear the opinion of someone who thinks things need to be balanced in a way that is fair to trans women and cis women.Yes, trans people are marginalized…so are women. And when we’re called terf because we want to discuss the concerns of female athletes, we are further marginalized.
IngridsLittleAngel
(1,962 posts)You don't. Ever. You cisplain us. You tell us what we're supposed to think and feel. You act like we're some sort of threat to you when it's the QOP that is the threat. You complain about "being told to shut up" while... you tell US to shut up. And it's gone on for years!
You care so much about women's sports?! I sure don't hear any of you speaking up or pushing back over attempts to cut funding for women's sports... I see more energy spent on this website over Lia Thomas than I do Dan Snyder thinking the Washington Commanders' cheerleaders are his personal harem!
Of course you don't coddle me. You can't even treat me with respect. The contempt you have for me and trans women is dripping from every word of every one of your posts on this issue.
You're the one marginalizing. YOU. Not me. Don't turn this around on me. And don't sit there and play the role of the victim after ganging up on and punching down on the trans community.
When you want to exclude trans women from women's rights battles, that IS being a TERF.
Oneironaut
(5,830 posts)I don’t see a problem with banning trans women from sports where they have a clear advantage. This is one of them.
On the other hand, is this the pressing issue of our time? Of course not.