Haberman book: Flushed papers found clogging Trump WH toilet
Source: axios
13 mins ago - Politics & Policy Mike Allen
While President Trump was in office, staff in the White House residence periodically discovered wads of printed paper clogging a toilet and believed the president had flushed pieces of paper, Maggie Haberman scoops in her forthcoming book, "Confidence Man."
Why it matters: The revelation by Haberman, whose coverage as a New York Times White House correspondent was followed obsessively by Trump, adds a vivid new dimension to his lapses in preserving government documents. Axios was provided an exclusive first look at some of her reporting.
Haberman reports Trump has told people that since leaving office, he has remained in contact with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un whose "love letters," as Trump once called them, were among documents the National Archives retrieved from Mar-a-Lago.
Zoom out: The news of White House toilet-flushing comes as the National Archives has reportedly asked the Biden Justice Department to examine Trump's handling of White House records, amid the congressional investigation into the Jan. 6 assault on the Capitol.
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Archives officials found possible classified material in the returned boxes, The New York Times learned.
Read more: https://www.axios.com/maggie-haberman-book-trump-papers-2d59d593-8b89-4edd-8623-8ef709af524f.html
We will never know what documents went down the WH toilets--except Trump poop
Link to tweet
?s=20&t=07cBUXzCcW1Bfxan9EGpTg
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)we need to stop calling correspondence with enemy foreign leaders, love letters. They are important letters that impact our nation's national security and the incoming president deserves to see these documents.
Secondly, if I understand the situation, the National Archives asked DOJ to take over the investigation and DOJ told the National Archives to investigate the matter itself. That's the way I read what is being reported. maybe Garland again wants to defend the office of the president the way he is defending it against E.Jeanne Carroll, the woman who is accusing Trump of rape and slander.
hamsterjill
(15,223 posts)The staff in the White House residence?
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)hamsterjill
(15,223 posts)I know. I know. The DOJ is working behind the scenes and the arrests are imminent. Im just a horrible, UnAmerican, anti-Democrat jackass for expecting that get done now. Trump wont have any influence over the midterms!!! Hell, McConnell has even crossed him. Hell, Trump will probably just turn himself in and admit everything and throw himself at the mercy of the court, right???
I know you know what Im doing here. Peace.
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,393 posts)they have to empanel a federal grand jury (because DOJ is not a police department with cops who were "in the room" to catch the perps in the act and thus could write up a report of those criminal acts as "witnesses" to the alleged crime(s) being committed).
Then they present what evidence they have to that jury (e.g., witness statements, photographs and/or video/audio recordings obtained, correspondence exchanged between individuals like emails, texts, printed memos/letters, etc), and then the jury will need to agree about what can be "charged", resulting indictments. Once the indictments go out, then stuff happens (arraignment) that leads to pleas, which would then result in either a trial (if the defendant pleads "not guilty" ) or other types of agreements/judgements without a need for a trial. Sometimes the grand jury doesn't find enough to bring about any charges and they decline to indict.
I think in the cases with the Jan. 6 insurrectionists, they could probably use the same D.C. grand jury but in this case, it would need a brand new group.
Here is what the process is (just found it and it is informative how they wrote it up) - starting here - https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/investigation and then leading to the meat here - https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/charging
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)it sounds to me like DOJ is telling the National Archives, You investigate the matter. The Nation Archives does have a unit that does investigations and I believe it has subpoena power.
hamsterjill
(15,223 posts)Reach out to the DOJ to investigate as the appropriate course? So I dont think its the National Archives can subpoena. Am I wrong???
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)the National Archives has its own investigative unit, I imagine it can subpoena. Read what the Times is reporting. The National Archives reached out to DOJ and DOJ told them to have its IG investigate the matter. I am just trying to use reading comprehension here, and it sounds to me like DOJ told the Archives to do the investigation.
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)be unlikely to result in charges.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/09/trump-archives-justice-department/
So the investigation's benefits might mostly be to recover the documents. AND gifts. It sounds like lots of gifts never made it to the Archive either.
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)there are 4 or 5 statutes that have significant jail time. It isn't just about not preserving documents, it's about hiding documents to obstruct an investigation. I just do not get it. Plus the fact that it now appears that Trump stole classified documents, that has got to be a crime? Those documents from North Korea are a matter of national security that president Biden needed to have access to.
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)violating those laws, so there aren't real consequences. At least that's what I got from the article. But, also from the article, I get the impression that they are working to create consequences for the future. That doesn't help us now, but for so many of these mores he has trampled, nothing is being done to prevent the next - smarter - guy from doing it worse. At least this may be tightened up.
Lonestarblue
(10,056 posts)18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term office does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.
Farmer-Rick
(10,206 posts)But the will to enforce the law is lacking.
Just read the interpretations of what "levying war" against the United States means. It's a perfect description of what Trump did on 6 Jan....and that is in the Constitution.
The majority of the 600 filthy rich oligarchs in the US don't want to punish the monsters they have so carefully created. Until they release their deadly grasp on our government, no one will be held to account. Why did no one go to jail when some of the same filthy rich families tried to get rid of Roosevelt in a failed coup.
We in the US don't ever punish the oligarchs, no matter what stupid crap they do. Trump's own father, during WWII, was a Nazi and nothing ever happened to him.
BumRushDaShow
(129,393 posts)none of the "civilian regulatory agencies" can "charge" or act on their own like the "criminal" / "law enforcement" agencies. All of the agencies have some kind of "office of general counsel" or whatever they may name them where they include a cadre of lawyers who are there in an advisory capacity, to review any "evidence" presented by the investigative staff in those agencies that will then get handed over to DOJ to take care of, and/or to assist their employees with representation in court (when needed).
Here is a primer from DOJ itself - https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/investigation -
In the Federal Government, there are agencies that employ criminal investigators to collect and provide information to the United States Attorneys in the respective district.
FingerprintYou may already know some of the agencies, such as:
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) United States Secret Service (USSS) Homeland Security Investigations (DHS/HSI)
The investigators at these agencies investigate the crime and obtain evidence, and help prosecutors understand the details of the case. The prosecutor may work with just one agency but, many times, several investigating agencies are involved.
Per the above, the information that is "collected" for the U.S. Attorneys by the above-named agencies (depending on subject matter) would often come from the regulatory agencies.
I remember for years working with DOJ designees for stuff I was assigned where (at least back in the day but I expect even today) they had their own template for writing up dockets, and we would format our USC violations and descriptions, etc. to fit into their template.
Rhiannon12866
(205,927 posts)https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017711499
As the National Archives turns to the Department of Justice to investigation Donald Trump's mishandling of presidential records, Ilona Cohen, former associate White House counsel during the Obama administration, talks about the importance of the Presidential Records Act and the extent to which the preservation of documents is emphasized to White House staff. Aired on 02/09/2022.
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)gab13by13
(21,392 posts)I saw this on Rachel, she reported that the National Archives has a very robust investigative unit. What do you understand the way the Times reported the story? It sounds to me like DOJ declined the case and told the Archives to investigate. Maybe Garland wants to defend the office of the president again, 3rd time's the charm.
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)I didn't see the Times story.
Just_Vote_Dem
(2,820 posts)And then the Inspector General can refer to DOJ-I think LOL
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)The Archives IG will investigate and then refer to DOJ for prosecution.
https://www.archives.gov/oig/investigations.html
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,170 posts)FM123
(10,054 posts)Half of the crazy things he says really does have to do with his crazy self....
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)Trump has told people that since leaving office, he has remained in contact with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un
Walleye
(31,044 posts)Why has Kim been shooting off all those missiles? Im pretty sure hes been in touch with Putin as well
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)I'm sure he's remained in contact with Putin. What scares me is a question I have that no one wants to answer. Did DOJ tell the National Archives to do the investigation itself? DOJ didn't hesitate to investigate Hillary.
Scrivener7
(50,993 posts)Did the DOJ do that? I haven't followed it closely enough to see that. It would not be a surprise though.
hkp11
(275 posts)Then Putin invading Ukraine would be beneficial by putting in pro-Russian Ukraine President. That Ukraine president can then bring up Hunter Biden's involvement in Burisma for 2024 US presidential election to support Drumpf's 2024 re-election campaign. That way Biden will be set in a bad light during the 2024 election.
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)Putin may invade but Ukraine is going to fight back.
hkp11
(275 posts)there will be casualties on Ukraine side if Russia decides to invade Ukraine. I hope pressure from Biden/NATO on Russia will have them thinking twice about invading Ukraine.
PatSeg
(47,576 posts)then U.S. intelligence should be aware of that.
Mr. Sparkle
(2,941 posts)"These Russian documents where close by .... "
pansypoo53219
(20,993 posts)more presidents, but i traded it. darn i lost teddy.
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)I better use this;
pansypoo53219
(20,993 posts)then i found bob lafollette's memorial book. huge book collector. also found some teddy roosevelt books.
Samrob
(4,298 posts)All of our Intel was compromised by the Trump administration and its scary to think about. What does Kim and Putin know that they are using against us via allies and adversaries alike? Think about it!
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)or was it pages of Haberman's new book?
KS Toronado
(17,310 posts)Now we have "But his Toilet"
PatSeg
(47,576 posts)Another day that the memes just write themselves!
multigraincracker
(32,714 posts)wiped clean to hide evidence.
YoshidaYui
(41,853 posts)Ugly ass.
twodogsbarking
(9,799 posts)electric_blue68
(14,932 posts)MissMillie
(38,578 posts)This isn't forgetfulness.. the papers were not found in some trash barrel, or packed away in some forgotten box.
I get the feeling that TDDFG would have burned the stuff if he hadn't been afraid of setting off the smoke alarms.
This is active, willful destruction of Presidential record.
gab13by13
(21,392 posts)he had a special bag where documents were to be burned.
Snoopy 7
(528 posts)Will a toilet be the trump presidential library?
DallasNE
(7,403 posts)The rules are explicit, and they were simply disregarded purposefully. That makes it criminal behavior. And just following orders is no defense. Either you prosecute these people to establish a deterrent, or it will keep happening over and over again.
llashram
(6,265 posts)can't unsee that especially when the guy's internal rear end mechanisms were severely damaged by his drug use...
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,496 posts)calimary
(81,441 posts)And to Mar-a-Lago. And wherever-the-hell else hes been in residence.
I suspect were learning about a long-practiced small-time-mentality strategy of get rid of the evidence.
Hekate
(90,779 posts)Damn that man to hell.
Tactical Peek
(1,211 posts)?w=840
LuckyLib
(6,819 posts)It could be a piece of some classified document.